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Weren't yall claiming earlier that 1/2 level resistances were too OP at lvl 1?
Shockingly, not as a primary part of an Ancestry!
Which is what the Eidolons base type partially represents. I could absolutely see Elementals getting half level resistance to their associated element.
The key is, in that case as well as Ancestries, the player doesn't have free choice.
They can't cherry pick the best resistance instead of the less valuable ones - they have to take the one that makes sense for the creature in question.
And it has to have a solid thematic tie to the very foundation of the character in question.
Weren't yall claiming earlier that 1/2 level resistances were too OP at lvl 1?
I wasn't involved in those conversations, but I don't see why it would be, within reason. Acid, Fire, Frost, and maybe even one of the physical damage types, sure. Electricity, Poison, Positive, and Negative would be a tougher sell, and no way in heck is Force on the table.
I mean, even in this version, Reinforce Eidolon and Flickering Evolution are two different ways to get resistance to all damage. Gotta pay an action cost, but you also get more benefits.
I can see an argument to limit the exact damage by type, like say by element type or it has to be the same as your dragon's breath, but as long as you limited access to ones like force, I wouldn't consider freely choosing from the most common ones OP myself.
Weren't yall claiming earlier that 1/2 level resistances were too OP at lvl 1?I wasn't involved in those conversations, but I don't see why it would be, within reason. Acid, Fire, Frost, and maybe even one of the physical damage types, sure. Electricity, Poison, Positive, and Negative would be a tougher sell, and no way in heck is Force on the table.
I mean, even in this version, Reinforce Eidolon and Flickering Evolution are two different ways to get resistance to all damage. Gotta pay an action cost, but you also get more benefits.
I can see an argument to limit the exact damage by type, like say by element type or it has to be the same as your dragon's breath, but as long as you limited access to ones like force, I wouldn't consider freely choosing from the most common ones OP myself.
Force is actually an extraordinarily bad resistance, as almost nothing deals force damage for the most part.
Resistance value is inverse to damage value for non physical damage. You need to be way more careful with fire than force as a result.
They also hand fire resistance out as a heritage like candy. Edit: If I had to guess why, I think fire spells usually deal more damage than force spells. Resistance 5 to Force would completely eliminate the spell Magic Missile for example, no matter how high a level you cast it at (edit: I lied, you combine damage before applying resistance). Whereas even a 1st level produce flame might still get through Fire Resistance 5. Probably not, but it might.
And yes, it is a heritage, not a feat. But so are several evolution feats. It is thematically appropriate for an Evolution feat to cover a resistance, sense, or any other physiological capability that you would normally either have or not at 1st level.
If it has to be delayed, level 4 would come in just ahead of a couple ancestry feats that give out resistance.
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They also hand fire resistance out as a heritage like candy. Edit: If I had to guess why, I think fire spells usually deal more damage than force spells. Resistance 5 to Force would completely eliminate the spell Magic Missile for example, no matter how high a level you cast it at. Whereas even a 1st level produce flame might still get through Fire Resistance 5. Probably not, but it might.
And yes, it is a heritage, not a feat. But so are several evolution feats. It is thematically appropriate for an Evolution feat to cover a resistance, sense, or any other physiological capability that you would normally either have or not at 1st level.
If it has to be delayed, level 4 would come in just ahead of a couple ancestry feats that give out resistance.
If I were a betting person, I'd bet that they are relying on items for elemental damage and resistance to maintain parity across player characters.
An Eidolon that can simply add fire resist effectively has an extra free armor rune over everyone else.
Same with elemental damage.
Yeah, energy resistance rings exist, but even then you're essentially handing summoners a massive gold advantage if you let them freely choose their choice of resists at the cost of a feat.
Most ancestries that offer resistance also dont allow you free choice... meaning if you do take that option its because its a situational choice, not simply a choice of whatever resist happens to be the best for the character.
I'm not going to flip out if they do an energy resist feat or anything, I just think there's a lot of incidental evidence that's not the direction they're going with that mechanic.
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I'm not going to flip out if they do an energy resist feat or anything, I just think there's a lot of incidental evidence that's not the direction they're going with that mechanic.
*shrug* I don't necessarily disagree with that part, I was just addressing the "OP" argument. No need to reopen the old wound though, if you think it is OP, I will respect your opinion even as I disagree.
One thing though, are Eidolons supposed to be able to benefit from armor property runes? I see potency and resilient runes, and weapon property runes, but not armor property. But I could be missing something.
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First, as to limits on usage, focus spells are definitely 2Es answer to "per encounter" or "per challenge" abilities, and the "minute duration" on evolution surge is also tuned specifically to the "per encounter" duration for spells and abilities.
You should not be having regular obstacles to having your focus spells available for each encounter or challenge on a regular basis, or your GM is rushing you forward too often without ample time to recuperate.
Second, I think you're seriously underestimating the number of problems out of combat Evolution Surge instantly solves - give the Eidolon a rope, and water based obstacles, height obstacles and physical barriers all become irrelevant the moment an eidolon can get to the other side and carry the party across. A minute is a long time when it comes to solving an obstacle out of combat.
As well, things like the ability to grant scent are massively underrated. Unless...
Ok, you are right that mechanically it allows you to solve a lot of problems. But it does it in the lamest and mechanically most uninteresting way possible.
What I am trying to ask for, when I talk about familiar type abilities, is things that differentiate one Eidolon from another. I think the concept of the summoner is really cool, having completely free reign to chose what your Eidolon is. But the problem is that even though you can say "my Eidolon is a wolf" and I can say "my Eidolon is a 7 foot tall floating Moai head", our Eidolons end up acting exactly the same way.
I think the class would be significantly more interesting if each Eidolon had its own specific permeant features, and Evolution Surge was not designed to be the go to solution for every problem.
Understand that I am not asking for the class to be more powerful. I am asking for the class to be more individual and customizable. In fact what I am asking for would probably make the class weaker in the specific area of exploration.
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But the problem is that even though you can say "my Eidolon is a wolf" and I can say "my Eidolon is a 7 foot tall floating Moai head", our Eidolons end up acting exactly the same way.
That sounds like a player problem. My gnome's spellcasting unicorn is going to play differently from the half-orc's tripping warg and the next guy's manticore, even though they are all beasts. The player has the agency to determine how the eidolon plays and acts in this edition, which is a clear improvement over the previous version where the mechanics determined your playstyle.
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But the problem is that even though you can say "my Eidolon is a wolf" and I can say "my Eidolon is a 7 foot tall floating Moai head", our Eidolons end up acting exactly the same way.That sounds like a player problem. My gnome's spellcasting unicorn is going to play differently from the half-orc's tripping warg and the next guy's manticore, even though they are all beasts. The player has the agency to determine how the eidolon plays and acts in this edition, which is a clear improvement over the previous version where the mechanics determined your playstyle.
Well yes, but actually no.
If I encounter a 40 foot cliff with a giant gecko Eidolon, and Krispy encounters the same 40 foot cliff with their wolf Eidolon, both of us are going to give our Eidolons the climbing trait so that it can go up and drop down a rope. Even though there is absolutely no reason a wolf should be able to get up a cliff, Krispy will still have to either do that, or be playing sub-optimally. If a mechanic forces sub-optimal play to stay consistent to role-play, it should at least be taken a look at.
It would feel very different if Evolution Surge was not the primary way that Eidolons are supposed to use beastlike abilities. If I came to the cliff and my gecko could just scurry up with its climb speed, and Krispy came to the wall and had to use their once per day Evolution Surge to let the wolf wall climb, it would not feel so weird. But the way it is right now, all Eidolons are just skins of the same creature, and its really lame.
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For me, a lot of the time Evolution Surge wasn't that exciting and often brought nothing to the table.
1st: every Eidolon has darkvision, Scent with a time limit is something a bit too late unless you know you're going up against something hidden before hand, swim/breathe underwater is either really great [like on a ship game] or never used [no big area of water showing up], and +20' [not super useful in a cramped dungeon or in exploration.]
5th: large is mostly pointless [mount for 1 min?], Climb [first pretty solid/universal option]
9th: huge [might be worth it for extra reach for taking up a LOT of space], and flight [second pretty solid/universal option]
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mount for 1 min?
Yeah the fact that it is not until 6th level that you can ride your Eidolon seems criminal to me.
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mount for 1 min?Yeah the fact that it is not until 6th level that you can ride your Eidolon seems criminal to me.
Especially that somehow a small PC can't ride a medium Eidolon for... Reasons...
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I like Evolution Surge.
Evolution surge is STRONG, in my eyes.
My only problem with it, and it seems the same feeling is numerous among people's given feedback, is that i don't like how much the class seems to rely on Evolution Surge.
Evolution Surge is strong, but it's also extremely dull, it kinda trivializes other options i would want to pick, i'd rather if Evolution Surge were a strong and versatile tool a Summoner could use to get flight or the other things it grants rather than seemingly the only way to gain those options at those levels.
Like others, instead of "Just use Evolution Surge" i'd rather my Eidolon ACTUALLY have certain abilities that would make sense. Like a Dragon Eidolon having the ability of temporary flight at early levels.
I understand due to balance, you can't just grant an Eidolon permanent flight at lv.1 though.
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Like others, instead of "Just use Evolution Surge" i'd rather my Eidolon ACTUALLY have certain abilities that would make sense. Like a Dragon Eidolon having the ability of temporary flight at early levels.
You realize that this would almost certainly result in a nerf to the class, right? To make up for your eidolon now having permanent, unrestricted abilities?
Evolution Surge appears to be a power budget friendly way of ensuring summoners have access to a range of effects for their Eidolon, that doesnt cost massive amounts of class resources.
You can get most of its effects permanently, via feats, if you spend them... but thats going to eat all your feats.
I can't imagine they'd just give Summoners all the value that currently costs feats for "nothing" - currently you can get a ton of it via evolution surge, discounted massively by its usage limitations and being tied to the focus mechanic.
I get that people want these things, but making them even more free seems unlikely - unless it comes at a significant cost elsewhere.
I personally am taking the tactic of just assuming that Evolution Surge is unlocking abilities that my Eidolon does "just have" as per your example, on demand. My angel "just has" flight temporarily, as you said, its just that the "temporarily" is tied to the focus mechanic.
Similar to "elemental damage comes from items and not feats", I really do think the design of Summoner from the ground up is asking players to do more mental heavy lifting on how the Eidolon works so that they can fit more effectiveness into the class mechanically - while maintaining balance.
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Similar to "elemental damage comes from items and not feats", I really do think the design of Summoner from the ground up is asking players to do more mental heavy lifting on how the Eidolon works so that they can fit more effectiveness into the class mechanically - while maintaining balance.
Related, did you see the question I asked? You've been following these threads a lot closer than I have, so if they clarified somewhere that Eidolons were intended to benefit from armor property runes, the way you talk about in this post:
If I were a betting person, I'd bet that they are relying on items for elemental damage and resistance to maintain parity across player characters.
An Eidolon that can simply add fire resist effectively has an extra free armor rune over everyone else.
Same with elemental damage.
Otherwise, I don't see a way for an Eidolon to get permanent Elemental Resistance of their choosing at all, with no feat support for it, and Eidolons unable to benefit from either rings or armor property runes.
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Similar to "elemental damage comes from items and not feats", I really do think the design of Summoner from the ground up is asking players to do more mental heavy lifting on how the Eidolon works so that they can fit more effectiveness into the class mechanically - while maintaining balance.Related, did you see the question I asked? You've been following these threads a lot closer than I have, so if they clarified somewhere that Eidolons were intended to benefit from armor property runes, the way you talk about in this post:
Otherwise, I don't see a way for an Eidolon to get permanent Elemental Resistance of their choosing at all, with no feat support for it, and Eidolons unable to benefit from either rings or armor property runes.If I were a betting person, I'd bet that they are relying on items for elemental damage and resistance to maintain parity across player characters.
An Eidolon that can simply add fire resist effectively has an extra free armor rune over everyone else.
Same with elemental damage.
I have returned from my journey into the depths of the subforums history looking for where I got this idea!
Looks like you're correct.
I found the main post by Mark that I was mentally referencing, and it does reference elemental attacks coming from items, but Elemental Resistances are listed among the "still missing evolutions" list.
I retract my position on this subject. All hail the inevitable Elemental Resist evolution, which will hopefully be appropriately leveled and balanced for its effect ;)
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I found the main post by Mark that I was mentally referencing, and it does reference elemental attacks coming from items, but Elemental Resistances are listed among the "still missing evolutions" list.
I retract my position on this subject. All hail the inevitable Elemental Resist evolution, which will hopefully be appropriately leveled and balanced for its effect ;)
I appreciate you taking the time to check!
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You realize that this would almost certainly result in a nerf to the class, right? To make up for your eidolon now having permanent, unrestricted abilities?
Evolution Surge appears to be a power budget friendly way of ensuring summoners have access to a range of effects for their Eidolon, that doesnt cost massive amounts of class resources.
You can get most of its effects permanently, via feats, if you spend them... but thats going to eat all your feats.
I can't imagine they'd just give Summoners all the value that currently costs feats for "nothing" - currently you can get a ton of it via evolution surge, discounted massively by its usage limitations and being tied to the focus mechanic.
I get that people want these things, but making them even more free seems unlikely - unless it comes at a significant cost elsewhere.
Yes Krispy... That is exactly what I am asking for...
I think I have made it clear in the title of this thread and elsewhere that I absolutely want summoners to take a big nerf in spellcasting so they can get better Eidolons. That is my whole point. I don't see what you are not understanding.
To be clear though, I do not want the Eidolon abilities that are currently under Evolution Surge to be feats. I want feats to be reserved for the subclasses and multiclassing(subclasses would maybe be actual summoner, and synthesist). That way every Summoner would be able to have an Eidolon with interesting abilities, and still have choice as to what subclass they get.
I am not asking for free extra power lol... spellcasting is a trap?
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I am not asking for free extra power lol... spellcasting is a trap?
And I'm saying you run into the value of diminishing returns in a way that isn't going to yield the results you want.
Which is ignoring the fact that spellcasting is far from a trap in the first place... the Summoner gets max level spell slots for their level, meaning they retain the spellcastera ability to wreck encounters and alter reality.
Sure, half their life they're less reliable than other casters... but theres no replacing the ability to wreck an encounter with a well placed Calm Emotions or Synethesia twice per day.
Trading that away isn't going to yield a beneficial trade for the default Summoner.
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Sorry I think you misunderstand me when I say spellcasting is a trap. Its not that it is bad. It is that it sounds good, but ends up making the class significantly less interesting.
I don't know what you are on about with the diminishing returns thing. If you are worried about balance, keep in mind I am asking for a total rework of the class, so using numbers from the current summoner is irrelevant to what I want.
I don't think you can honestly argue that it is completely impossible to create a class that has a more powerful Eidolon and more customization, but no spell casting. That is what I am asking for, and certainly the designers could come up with something that worked for that model if they wanted to.
I understand that there is basically no chance that they will at this point, but I also know that they were asking for community feedback so I gave it. The devs are free to completely ignore me.
Again, spellcasting is obviously powerful. I just think it makes the class way less cool and way less interesting. There are a lot of spell caster classes. I would much rather have a really flexible class that can be made to hold up as martial or to be a partial caster through multiclassing, than to be forced to play a caster. There is no reason the concept of a character with a bond to an Eidolon would have to be a caster, and I think it would be way more interesting if it didn't have to be,
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I really want eidolons to be full of customization that does not require feats. Otherwise its dull, boring, and not an eidolon.
Why should eidolons have customisation outside of feats? No other class gets special customisation outside of feats. There's very little reason for paizo to make PF2e with a very specific focus on feat progression, just to ignore the careful balance they very specifically created.
What about "having to play by the rules" makes this class boring, or not an eidolon? Don't you typically advocate for making the summoner themself useless and pushing all the power to the eidolon? That's exactly what you can already get, since you can devote all your feats towards the eidolon. If you got what you wanted (useless summoner, special eidolon customisation) what would you even use feats for then? It just seems nonsensical, and poorly thought out.
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I really want eidolons to be full of customization that does not require feats. Otherwise its dull, boring, and not an eidolon.Why should eidolons have customisation outside of feats? No other class gets special customisation outside of feats. There's very little reason for paizo to make PF2e with a very specific focus on feat progression, just to ignore the careful balance they very specifically created.
What about "having to play by the rules" makes this class boring, or not an eidolon? Don't you typically advocate for making the summoner themself useless and pushing all the power to the eidolon? That's exactly what you can already get, since you can devote all your feats towards the eidolon. If you got what you wanted (useless summoner, special eidolon customisation) what would you even use feats for then? It just seems nonsensical, and poorly thought out.
I have no idea what you mean by saying other classes do not have customization outside of feats. I think you are not thinking very hard about this.
Spell casters get a huge amount of customization as to what spells they chose. Martial classes get a huge amount of customization with what weapons they pick. Every class gets customization with what ability scores they chose. Every class gets customization with what non class feats they choose. Every class gets customization with what equipment they choose to carry. Every character gets customization as to what ancestry and what background they choose.
Some of those examples might seem irrelevant if you think about the Eidolon as a subserviently beast that is summoned. But that is obviously not how the class is supposed to work. The Eidolon is an extension/the other half of the character that it is attached to. So it seems only fair that the eidolon would get half of the total customization options.
Obviously that is impossible because of game balance and practicality of rule length, but it is not impossible to give the Eidolons much more customization than what they have now. That would make the class feel so much more true to its concept, and so much more interesting.
So yeah, 90 percent of all customization of a character is outside of class feats, and so it would be totally legit to give more outside customization to Eidolons.
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You can get most of its effects permanently, via feats, if you spend them... but thats going to eat all your feats.
Right, that's kinda my problem with it.
The reason you took a pause there before saying "...but that's going to eat all your feats"
You and i both know that devalues those feats by a lot because, why not just use Evolution Surge?
It's free(Costs 1 focus point), powerful, versatile, effects basically last almost all encounter-long, etc.
It is very effective at what it does, i agree.
Suddenly, my Eidolon doesn't seem so customizable; suddenly, the Summoner becomes the "Evolution Surge" class.
The Summoner already has a dull routine of expectations every encounter.
Again, i like Evolution Surge, it is very effective, efficient, and powerful...it just kinda makes the class more dull because i know with how good it is and how insignificant the feats that grant permanent options are in comparison.
It almost sounds like i'm trying to make a call to nerf Evolution Surge but that's not really what i'm trying to get at.
It's not broken, it doesn't trivalize other classes, the problem isn't how powerful Evolution surge is.
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No, the majority of customization comes through feats. Ancestry, Class, General, Skill, Multiclass, Archetype, All feats.
Spells, equipment, and certain classes that can choose things in the chassis is hardly '90 percent'.
They mean the Eidolons shouldn't get a different type of customization solely for them that can just as easily be accomplished with the system structure of customization that is feats.
If you got what you wanted (useless summoner, special eidolon customisation) what would you even use feats for then? It just seems nonsensical, and poorly thought out.
I think I at least have been very clear with what I want. I want the class feats to be dedicated to the subclasses, and to multiclassing.
For the subclasses, two that people have suggested are Systhesist and Summoner(actual magic, but only for other summons). I am sure you could have more but those are the obvious ones.
Then because feats are free it would be possible to have a very competent multiclass summoner, which would meant that you could cast spells if you want, or you could be more martial if you want. It just makes the class way more flexible than just being a spellcaster.
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No, the majority of customization comes through feats. Ancestry, Class, General, Skill, Multiclass, Archetype, All feats.
Spells, equipment, and certain classes that can choose things in the chassis is hardly '90 percent'.
They mean the Eidolons shouldn't get a different type of customization solely for them that can just as easily be accomplished with the system structure of customization that is feats.
We are only talking about changing class feats. All the other feats are fine.
I understand why you would be wary of different sets of customization options, but consider the alchemist. They have a completely unique set of customization options and it works just fine.
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It almost sounds like i'm trying to make a call to nerf Evolution Surge but that's not really what i'm trying to get at.
I get that.
I think though, that the entire class is designed with the intent that the player is going to work with the system in order to get "more" out of their Eidolom than what the system, with its focus on Balance, generally allows.
I feel like Evolution surge is a "hack" to allow Summoners to have a diverse range of powers on their (relative to other companion options in ACs and Familiars) on their extremely combat viable and character level companion creature, WITHOUT eating up all the characters resources.
I'm building hypothetical summoners with Eidolons that can move super fast, climb or fly on demand any time it's called for, and develop a super sense at will - and not paying a feat to support it. Any time the narrative calls for me to fly, I can.
There are practical limitations, but for the most part they're invisible to the narrative, and my Eidolon can do whatever it needs to as often as would typically be required.
And it works because I'm not associating traits like wings with permanent effects and am instead associating them with the list of abilities I have at my fingertips.
And because of this, I can both have an interesting Eidolon (with a unique description, backstory, personality, goals, skills and attacks) AND a ton of feats to pursue whatever customization agenda I want for the characrer as a whole.
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No, the majority of customization comes through feats. Ancestry, Class, General, Skill, Multiclass, Archetype, All feats.
And yet, the only ones of those that the eidolon gets are Class Feats. They don't get Ancestry*, General, Skill, Multiclass, or Archetype feats.
*They sorta do with their eidolon-type-things that kick in at 7th and 17th. But you don't have a choice with them.
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I wish Evolution Surge allowed you to double your already existing speeds/movements/abilities, that would make far more thematic sense to call it a "Surge".
The problem with that is they get none by default, but if they did that'd probably be a better application of it (and honestly it'd be nice if it was a Free action if that change were made).
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No, the majority of customization comes through feats. Ancestry, Class, General, Skill, Multiclass, Archetype, All feats.And yet, the only ones of those that the eidolon gets are Class Feats. They don't get Ancestry*, General, Skill, Multiclass, or Archetype feats.
*They sorta do with their eidolon-type-things that kick in at 7th and 17th. But you don't have a choice with them.
Well, yeah, because they shouldn't. The Eidolon isn't coming from the Ancestry, and the Summoner gets the General and Skill feats, and Eidolons also don't have classes, so.
If there was a Feat to share your general/skill/multiclass feats with your Eidolon for a brief time, that'd be neat, but they shouldn't get them on their own. The Summoner should remain the one who gets the same breadth of feats as all other characters, and Eidolons a limited number of things to customize with that comes from the Summoner class and Summoner feats.
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Well, yeah, because they shouldn't. The Eidolon isn't coming from the Ancestry, and the Summoner gets the General and Skill feats, and Eidolons also don't have classes, so.
If there was a Feat to share your multiclass feats with your Eidolon, that'd be neat, but they shouldn't get them on their own. The Summoner should remain the one who gets the same breadth of feats as all other characters.
To be clear, I am asking for a class rework. The way I want the class to be reworked, the Eidolon would have more than 50 percent of the power, and a good amount of customization. Of course, that is not true right now, but I think it should be redesigned that way.
So when you say "The Summoner should remain the one who gets the same breadth of feats as all other characters.", that is exactly what I am disagreeing with. And it is not a disagreement of balance or understanding, it is a disagreement of class philosophy should be. I understand what the current class philosophy is, and I think it should be changed because it would make the class more interesting and more fun to play.
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Well, yeah, because they shouldn't. The Eidolon isn't coming from the Ancestry, and the Summoner gets the General and Skill feats, and Eidolons also don't have classes, so.
If there was a Feat to share your multiclass feats with your Eidolon, that'd be neat, but they shouldn't get them on their own. The Summoner should remain the one who gets the same breadth of feats as all other characters.
To be clear, I am asking for a class rework. The way I want the class to be reworked, the Eidolon would have more than 50 percent of the power, and a good amount of customization. Of course, that is not true right now, but I think it should be redesigned that way.
So when you say "The Summoner should remain the one who gets the same breadth of feats as all other characters.", that is exactly what I am disagreeing with. And it is not a disagreement of balance or understanding, it is a disagreement of class philosophy should be. I understand what the current class philosophy is, and I think it should be changed because it would make the class more interesting and more fun to play.
Unfortunately, I don't think such a thing is likely to happen - we may get changes to certain things here and there, but a class rework of the sort you want would likely delay SoM and invalidate the Summoner's portion of the playtest.
It's just not something I see Paizo doing in any kind of form.
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To be clear, I am asking for a class rework. The way I want the class to be reworked, the Eidolon would have more than 50 percent of the power, and a good amount of customization. Of course, that is not true right now, but I think it should be redesigned that way.So when you say "The Summoner should remain the one who gets the same breadth of feats as all other characters.", that is exactly what I am disagreeing with. And it is not a disagreement of balance or understanding, it is a disagreement of class philosophy should be. I understand what the current class philosophy is, and I think it should be changed because it would make the class more interesting and more fun to play.
The problem is the class rework you're asking for would violate the basic paradigms classes in 2e are built on.
Part of what makes the system work is consistency.
Part of what made the 1e summoner a broken mess was a unique customization subsystem.
Bringing anything similar to that back feels like an extremely bad idea to me, and contrary to 2E design to boot.
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Suddenly, my Eidolon doesn't seem so customizable; suddenly, the Summoner becomes the "Evolution Surge" class.
The Summoner already has a dull routine of expectations every encounter.Again, i like Evolution Surge, it is very effective, efficient, and powerful...it just kinda makes the class more dull because i know with how good it is and how insignificant the feats that grant permanent options are in comparison.
It almost sounds like i'm trying to make a call to nerf Evolution Surge but that's not really what i'm trying to get at.
It's not broken, it doesn't trivalize other classes, the problem isn't how powerful Evolution surge is.
Looking at it like that, Evolution Surge seems like the True Strike of Summoners: a spell that temporarily patches a mechanical/mathematical hole in the design. The spell then crowds out any attempts to actually fix the hole.
In this case, the argument seems to be that because you can just cast Evolution Surge at the beginning of combat and give the eidolon improved abilities then, there is no need to give these abilities to the eidolon permanently. Of course, if you follow this to the logical extreme, why not just make all eidolons the same pregen blob and have Evolution Surge give the eidolon everything: type, attacks, ability modifiers, etc.
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Suddenly, my Eidolon doesn't seem so customizable; suddenly, the Summoner becomes the "Evolution Surge" class.
The Summoner already has a dull routine of expectations every encounter.Again, i like Evolution Surge, it is very effective, efficient, and powerful...it just kinda makes the class more dull because i know with how good it is and how insignificant the feats that grant permanent options are in comparison.
It almost sounds like i'm trying to make a call to nerf Evolution Surge but that's not really what i'm trying to get at.
It's not broken, it doesn't trivalize other classes, the problem isn't how powerful Evolution surge is.Looking at it like that, Evolution Surge seems like the True Strike of Summoners: a spell that temporarily patches a mechanical/mathematical hole in the design. The spell then crowds out any attempts to actually fix the hole.
In this case, the argument seems to be that because you can just cast Evolution Surge at the beginning of combat and give the eidolon improved abilities then, there is no need to give these abilities to the eidolon permanently. Of course, if you follow this to the logical extreme, why not just make all eidolons the same pregen blob and have Evolution Surge give the eidolon everything: type, attacks, ability modifiers, etc.
Theres almost no way permanent bonuses from Evolutions aren't going to cost feats. That's how choosing permanent bonuses for characters AND character assets (see also familiars and animal companions) WORKS in 2e.
Making permanent bonuses the ONLY way available to get these abilities really would kill the class, as you'd lose its unique flexibility and elective resources all in one go.
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Unfortunately, I don't think such a thing is likely to happen - we may get changes to certain things here and there, but a class rework of the sort you want would likely delay SoM and invalidate the Summoner's portion of the playtest.It's just not something I see Paizo doing in any kind of form.
Yeah I recognize that lol.
They asked for feedback so I have provided, but I realize that it will have no effect on anything. I do genuinely feel like it would significantly improve the class though... very depressing.
They mean the Eidolons shouldn't get a different type of customization solely for them that can just as easily be accomplished with the system structure of customization that is feats.
Yes, precisely.
I have no idea what you mean by saying other classes do not have customization outside of feats.
The eidolon is not the class. It is not a PC. It is a facet of the collective character, consisting of the summoner and the eidolon. And collectively, they get all the customisation that has been mentioned; that of spells, that of equipment, that of ancestry, and skill, and general feats. But that wasn't my point.
My point was that no other class gets ways to customise a class feature outside of class feats, as that is essentially what an eidolon is.
Rogues don't get bonus class feats with which to modify sneak attack. Barbarians don't get a unique point system to customise rage. What makes summoners so special that they deserve some new unique system to modify a class feature? Because that's how it worked in 1e? Well newsflash, this isn't the 1e summoner. And if you're going to accuse me of not thinking very hard, please, take a moment to think about what I actually said first.
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Allowing a class to do something no other class can is the status quo with classes. Why can't Summoners have a unique niche? Why must they copy what every other class does, but worse?
Their unique niche is the Eidolon - a companion character, and second body.
That's what they do best.
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So a boring mediocre martial is all they can contribute? That's their niche? Lol
Allowing a class to do something no other class can is the status quo with classes. Why can't Summoners have a unique niche? Why must they copy what every other class does, but worse?Their unique niche is the Eidolon - a companion character, and second body.
That's what they do best.
If you can't make your eidolon interesting, I'm putting that on you.
In the final book, there's going to be 11-12 base types, all the evolution options we have now, and then some.
Eidolons, as it stands, can fight, cast cantrips and spells, use a full range of skills, and gain a number of sensory powers and movement modes as well as size increases and other cool tricks at mid/high levels like transposition. They also gain thematic abilities related to their type which are pretty good, Re: dragons.
If they end up fixing the accuracy and Ac issues and all that together isn't good enough because its a "mediocre martial", then you're not trying hard enough to make it interesting.
I know you want "more customization" and "less summoner", but the current system isn't lacking if you just work with it.
There will be options. They will not be likely to include things that are OP or in appropriate for players of the associated level.
It will likely work well.
The worst thing that could happen is they could take away evolution surge and all the things it currently gives for free and move them behind a "pay wall" of having to spend class feats on them...
And the summoner themself is a viable light spellcaster open to customization via archetype.
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I don't see any way to heavily customize eidolons without breaking the game math and creating obviously superior eidolons. At best they could do like Animal companions with a 1 point stat difference here or there, but that's about it. They can't and shouldn't create a nimble versus savage situation where a nimble AC is demonstrably better in nearly every way than a savage AC.
I think the designers are stuck when it comes to customization tweaks. It has to be very tight math or the class will be heavily imbalanced.
Little off topic but one thing that I feel would help with the martial prowess of the summoner is to let the summoner use any feats they or the eidolon have while synthesis is active, while using the stats of the eidolon. Bugs me that the eidolon has barely any combat feats and that archetype feats are basically a no go for the summoner, taking away a big chunk of 2e customization. I think this would kill two birds.
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Little off topic but one thing that I feel would help with the martial prowess of the summoner is to let the summoner use any feats they or the eidolon have while synthesis is active, while using the stats of the eidolon. Bugs me that the eidolon has barely any combat feats and that archetype feats are basically a no go for the summoner, taking away a big chunk of 2e customization. I think this would kill two birds.
Marks comments elsewhere indicate a strong likelyhood they'll add more 'combat' feats for Eidolons, giving them abilities that are thematically similar to Monster attack routines - stuff to simulate knockdown, grab, constrict, etc.
So they'll probably pick up some combat 'options' for making things more interesting.