Jesse_Carl's page

Unfortunately, I don't think such a thing is likely to happen - we may get changes to certain things here and there, but a class rework of the sort you want would likely delay SoM and invalidate the Summoner's portion of the playtest.

It's just not something I see Paizo doing in any kind of form.

Yeah I recognize that lol.

They asked for feedback so I have provided, but I realize that it will have no effect on anything. I do genuinely feel like it would significantly improve the class though... very depressing.

Well, yeah, because they shouldn't. The Eidolon isn't coming from the Ancestry, and the Summoner gets the General and Skill feats, and Eidolons also don't have classes, so.

If there was a Feat to share your multiclass feats with your Eidolon, that'd be neat, but they shouldn't get them on their own. The Summoner should remain the one who gets the same breadth of feats as all other characters.

To be clear, I am asking for a class rework. The way I want the class to be reworked, the Eidolon would have more than 50 percent of the power, and a good amount of customization. Of course, that is not true right now, but I think it should be redesigned that way.

So when you say "The Summoner should remain the one who gets the same breadth of feats as all other characters.", that is exactly what I am disagreeing with. And it is not a disagreement of balance or understanding, it is a disagreement of class philosophy should be. I understand what the current class philosophy is, and I think it should be changed because it would make the class more interesting and more fun to play.

No, the majority of customization comes through feats. Ancestry, Class, General, Skill, Multiclass, Archetype, All feats.

Spells, equipment, and certain classes that can choose things in the chassis is hardly '90 percent'.

They mean the Eidolons shouldn't get a different type of customization solely for them that can just as easily be accomplished with the system structure of customization that is feats.

We are only talking about changing class feats. All the other feats are fine.

I understand why you would be wary of different sets of customization options, but consider the alchemist. They have a completely unique set of customization options and it works just fine.

If you got what you wanted (useless summoner, special eidolon customisation) what would you even use feats for then? It just seems nonsensical, and poorly thought out.

I think I at least have been very clear with what I want. I want the class feats to be dedicated to the subclasses, and to multiclassing.

For the subclasses, two that people have suggested are Systhesist and Summoner(actual magic, but only for other summons). I am sure you could have more but those are the obvious ones.

Then because feats are free it would be possible to have a very competent multiclass summoner, which would meant that you could cast spells if you want, or you could be more martial if you want. It just makes the class way more flexible than just being a spellcaster.

Temperans wrote:

I really want eidolons to be full of customization that does not require feats. Otherwise its dull, boring, and not an eidolon.

Why should eidolons have customisation outside of feats? No other class gets special customisation outside of feats. There's very little reason for paizo to make PF2e with a very specific focus on feat progression, just to ignore the careful balance they very specifically created.

What about "having to play by the rules" makes this class boring, or not an eidolon? Don't you typically advocate for making the summoner themself useless and pushing all the power to the eidolon? That's exactly what you can already get, since you can devote all your feats towards the eidolon. If you got what you wanted (useless summoner, special eidolon customisation) what would you even use feats for then? It just seems nonsensical, and poorly thought out.

I have no idea what you mean by saying other classes do not have customization outside of feats. I think you are not thinking very hard about this.

Spell casters get a huge amount of customization as to what spells they chose. Martial classes get a huge amount of customization with what weapons they pick. Every class gets customization with what ability scores they chose. Every class gets customization with what non class feats they choose. Every class gets customization with what equipment they choose to carry. Every character gets customization as to what ancestry and what background they choose.

Some of those examples might seem irrelevant if you think about the Eidolon as a subserviently beast that is summoned. But that is obviously not how the class is supposed to work. The Eidolon is an extension/the other half of the character that it is attached to. So it seems only fair that the eidolon would get half of the total customization options.

Obviously that is impossible because of game balance and practicality of rule length, but it is not impossible to give the Eidolons much more customization than what they have now. That would make the class feel so much more true to its concept, and so much more interesting.

So yeah, 90 percent of all customization of a character is outside of class feats, and so it would be totally legit to give more outside customization to Eidolons.

Sorry I think you misunderstand me when I say spellcasting is a trap. Its not that it is bad. It is that it sounds good, but ends up making the class significantly less interesting.

I don't know what you are on about with the diminishing returns thing. If you are worried about balance, keep in mind I am asking for a total rework of the class, so using numbers from the current summoner is irrelevant to what I want.

I don't think you can honestly argue that it is completely impossible to create a class that has a more powerful Eidolon and more customization, but no spell casting. That is what I am asking for, and certainly the designers could come up with something that worked for that model if they wanted to.

I understand that there is basically no chance that they will at this point, but I also know that they were asking for community feedback so I gave it. The devs are free to completely ignore me.

Again, spellcasting is obviously powerful. I just think it makes the class way less cool and way less interesting. There are a lot of spell caster classes. I would much rather have a really flexible class that can be made to hold up as martial or to be a partial caster through multiclassing, than to be forced to play a caster. There is no reason the concept of a character with a bond to an Eidolon would have to be a caster, and I think it would be way more interesting if it didn't have to be,

You realize that this would almost certainly result in a nerf to the class, right? To make up for your eidolon now having permanent, unrestricted abilities?

Evolution Surge appears to be a power budget friendly way of ensuring summoners have access to a range of effects for their Eidolon, that doesnt cost massive amounts of class resources.

You can get most of its effects permanently, via feats, if you spend them... but thats going to eat all your feats.

I can't imagine they'd just give Summoners all the value that currently costs feats for "nothing" - currently you can get a ton of it via evolution surge, discounted massively by its usage limitations and being tied to the focus mechanic.

I get that people want these things, but making them even more free seems unlikely - unless it comes at a significant cost elsewhere.

Yes Krispy... That is exactly what I am asking for...

I think I have made it clear in the title of this thread and elsewhere that I absolutely want summoners to take a big nerf in spellcasting so they can get better Eidolons. That is my whole point. I don't see what you are not understanding.

To be clear though, I do not want the Eidolon abilities that are currently under Evolution Surge to be feats. I want feats to be reserved for the subclasses and multiclassing(subclasses would maybe be actual summoner, and synthesist). That way every Summoner would be able to have an Eidolon with interesting abilities, and still have choice as to what subclass they get.

I am not asking for free extra power lol... spellcasting is a trap?

mount for 1 min?

Yeah the fact that it is not until 6th level that you can ride your Eidolon seems criminal to me.

Jesse_Carl wrote:

But the problem is that even though you can say "my Eidolon is a wolf" and I can say "my Eidolon is a 7 foot tall floating Moai head", our Eidolons end up acting exactly the same way.

That sounds like a player problem. My gnome's spellcasting unicorn is going to play differently from the half-orc's tripping warg and the next guy's manticore, even though they are all beasts. The player has the agency to determine how the eidolon plays and acts in this edition, which is a clear improvement over the previous version where the mechanics determined your playstyle.

Well yes, but actually no.

If I encounter a 40 foot cliff with a giant gecko Eidolon, and Krispy encounters the same 40 foot cliff with their wolf Eidolon, both of us are going to give our Eidolons the climbing trait so that it can go up and drop down a rope. Even though there is absolutely no reason a wolf should be able to get up a cliff, Krispy will still have to either do that, or be playing sub-optimally. If a mechanic forces sub-optimal play to stay consistent to role-play, it should at least be taken a look at.

It would feel very different if Evolution Surge was not the primary way that Eidolons are supposed to use beastlike abilities. If I came to the cliff and my gecko could just scurry up with its climb speed, and Krispy came to the wall and had to use their once per day Evolution Surge to let the wolf wall climb, it would not feel so weird. But the way it is right now, all Eidolons are just skins of the same creature, and its really lame.

First, as to limits on usage, focus spells are definitely 2Es answer to "per encounter" or "per challenge" abilities, and the "minute duration" on evolution surge is also tuned specifically to the "per encounter" duration for spells and abilities.

You should not be having regular obstacles to having your focus spells available for each encounter or challenge on a regular basis, or your GM is rushing you forward too often without ample time to recuperate.

Second, I think you're seriously underestimating the number of problems out of combat Evolution Surge instantly solves - give the Eidolon a rope, and water based obstacles, height obstacles and physical barriers all become irrelevant the moment an eidolon can get to the other side and carry the party across. A minute is a long time when it comes to solving an obstacle out of combat.

As well, things like the ability to grant scent are massively underrated. Unless...

Ok, you are right that mechanically it allows you to solve a lot of problems. But it does it in the lamest and mechanically most uninteresting way possible.

What I am trying to ask for, when I talk about familiar type abilities, is things that differentiate one Eidolon from another. I think the concept of the summoner is really cool, having completely free reign to chose what your Eidolon is. But the problem is that even though you can say "my Eidolon is a wolf" and I can say "my Eidolon is a 7 foot tall floating Moai head", our Eidolons end up acting exactly the same way.

I think the class would be significantly more interesting if each Eidolon had its own specific permeant features, and Evolution Surge was not designed to be the go to solution for every problem.

Understand that I am not asking for the class to be more powerful. I am asking for the class to be more individual and customizable. In fact what I am asking for would probably make the class weaker in the specific area of exploration.

The Evolution Surge focus spell accomplishes most of what you're wanting here, for zero resource cost to the Summoner.

It provides movement modes to conquer obstacles on demand (including underwater breathing), extra senses on demand, and other miscellaneous utility on demand.

You arent required to choose between an interesting Eidolon and an interesting Summoner - you're just required to choose how much you're investing in abilities that are always on, and how much you want to leave as "accessible on demand".

I think Evolution surge is intended to do a LOT of heavy lifting for the class narratively for special abilities, and a lot of people are treating it like its a minor situational bonus.

I dont think its intended to be.

It absolutely does not accomplish most of what I am wanting here. Certainly the abilities are a good start, but they last for one minute each. Also it is a focus spell, so you cannot use it without then spending 10 minutes of wasted time. Also, you still have to be 5th level before you can ride your Eidolon, and then it is only for 1 minute.

That is one of the things that I think is most incredibly dumb. Riding your Eidolon should probably be automatically available, or at least an option at first level. It is such an obvious trait, and right now you cant do it.

Also from a roleplay standpoint, that is such a lame solution. It would be way cooler to give Eidolons specific abilities than to just say all of them can do everything, but they are really bad at it.

I think Evolution surge is intended to do a LOT of heavy lifting for the class narratively for special abilities, and a lot of people are treating it like it somehow succeeds at that and is something more than a situational bonus.

I think it is intended to be, but isn't.

OrochiFuror wrote:

I think it's funny that liking an aspect of a class means it can't also be a weakness of that class. You think wizards get angry because they get stuck in melee with creatures?

As for spell casting and Eidolon strength, I don't see why we can't have both. Right now the class is fairly under powered compared to full caster and martial, all your proficiency's are lower, your combat stats are lower and your spell slots are way lower. I think that's plenty of room to increase class power before getting close to being concerned about it being too much.

Based on my Summoners performance in a party designed with optimization as a secondary concern (free hand fighters, monks, and a divination wizard aren't exactly the basis of a combat powerhouse party - we've found a good rhythm, but its still not highly optimized), I dont think there's as much overhead room for increasing power level as you think. At least not at the current "peak" levels for summoner power.

Good play and strategic combat play makes my Summoner look like the hardest hitting and toughest brawler in the group, and good spell choice and timing on when to drop offensive spells have let me more dramatically end encounters with a well placed spell than the Wizard.

In that environment, underpowered isn't even on the table in my fellow players consideration of the class.

Top end, fully optimized play isn't the only arena to consider - that wasn't where the 1E summoner was a problem, either.

I'm not saying there's no room for growth, just that it's not some vast gulf between summoners and the next guy.

Summoner is already, as written, above the alchemist imo.

When I started this thread, I was not really thinking about the power of the eidolon in combat. I think the eidolon might be weak in combat or it might not be. I haven't played enough to be sure. The thing I really don't like is how weak the Eidolon is outside combat, and how useless the summoner PC is for anything other than casting spells.

So it might be true that the Eidolon should have stronger combat ability, but what I really am asking for is more customization for familiar like abilities. I am also asking that these customizations primarily come outside of the class feat tree, because if they are class feats then that means that you have to chose between an interesting eidolon and an interesting PC, and I think it should be possible to have both.

Jesse_Carl wrote:

Yeah I did not see Verzen say he wants them to be stronger than martials. I'm not sure where you got that.

Its the general historical disregard for "parity" in other posts across the board.

A general desire for Eidolons to have access to abilities taken straight out of the Bestiary, which players are generally denied, without concern for whether that causes balance issues between classes.

He may not have said that specifically, but theres been a general feeling to Verzens posts that what they want is something that is equivalent to a Martial, with all the benefits of having a second body.

Early on Verzen was also a proponent of abilities at low levels like unrestricted elemental damage and weaknesses, which are problematic for a variety of balance reasons.

I dont think Rysky was attempting to misrepresent anyone, so much as drawing a conclusion from a range of posts since the beginning of the playtest.

I dont think Verzen is out to make the class OP, but I do think that would be the result of a number of Verzens earlier proposals.

Lol ok... a general feeling

I can't speak for Verzen but if you look a couple posts up I have a post about how I think the class should be balanced without being OP

The part about having to wait for your build to come online is kinda strange to me though. Every class has to wait, depending on what your vision is. I had an idea for a wizard that used and infused magic into a bow, and it didn't actually come online until like 10th or 12th level, and hardly had 2 wizard feats to rub together (this has changed slightly since the addition of the Magus playtest, but that's a different kettle of fish).

Plus, on the subject of having abilities that don't fit the vision, that also happens with lots of builds. If I wanted to make a buff investigator luchador, I'd likely have to wait awhile to get that to work properly, and on top of that would have lots of very investigator-esqe abilities that don't fit. Either I live with it, or use a different class as a base.

Yeah I was probably unclear here. The problem I have is not that it takes to long to make this work. It is that it never really ends up working. With the current system, the amount of power in the spell system means that you can not build an effective martial Summoner. I think you should be able to build a martial summoner because that feels like it is perfectly in line with the class's concept.

Also I have a problem with how long it takes Eidolons to get abilities. It is insane to me that you have to be level 6 before you can ride the massive magical beast you have a psychic linking to.

Obviously that is subjective, but I think it would make the class way more interesting if the Eidolons were more useful outside of punching people.

Yeah I did not see Verzen say he wants them to be stronger than martials. I'm not sure where you got that.

Let me clarify my concept for how the Summoner would be balanced, because I don't think I did a good enough job.

I think that the Summoner should be balanced around the Eidolon. I think that the default status of a summoner if you were to play one that had no class feats, would be a completely ability free PC, and an Eidolon which is essentially a less powerful martial character, with some monstrous abilities.

Then, the class feats are what give your PC abilities. There would be a couple of feat trees, maybe one for synthesis, and one for actual summoning spells that let you get more than just the eidolon, and spells to buff your summons. You could also just chose to use your class feats for multiclassing, which would let you be an effective martial character alongside your Eidolon, or a spell caster, or whatever you want.

To you guys who are arguing about martial balance:

Leave the math up to the game designers. The game designers will be able to balance just about any concept, within reason. So I don't see the point of talking about the balance of a specific scenario.

If it is decided that the class should be spell based, the designers can balance it as such. If it is decided the class should be martial, the game designers will come up with some way to make it work well.

I think it is a bit silly to say any concept is unbalanced, because its a concept, not a game mechanic, and there is definitely some way to balance it.

KirinKai wrote:

Verzen wrote:

The math of the summoner means you shouldn't put them in combat. They share MAP, get worse physical stats, far lower AC (AC of a caster)

You do not want them on the front lines.

Who says they get worse physical stats? Just build it to have high strength and con. As for AC, take champion or sentinel archetype and you're in a better position than most. And you could quite easily use an ancestry feat for weapon familiarity to get a martial weapon on simple proficiency, which is better than nothing.

They get at max 16 str. Same as Eidolon if you devoted points to it. But when do they get expert or master prof to either AC or attack?

Yeah I totally agree with you. I think that summoners should not necessarily be the skill monkey. That should be rebalanced somewhat. The abilities I want to see are ones that are related to the fact that the Eidolon is a magical beast. The abilities it has right now are just the abilities of a PC (making skill checks).

Verzen wrote:

KirinKai wrote:

I definitely agree that it'd be nice to enable a more combat involved summoner, but there's always multiclass feats for that.

Which multiclass feats effect the Eidolon???

Emphasis mine.

While I think allowing the eidolon to take archetypes is actually one of the neater ideas to come out of these forums, that wasn't what Kirin was talking about.

I recognize that it is called "Summoner", but don't let the name distract you from the core concept of the class. The name "summoner" is not key to the classes primary ability, the Eidolon. Personally I think the name should be changed to better reflect what the class actually is.

ADDENDUM- What do I mean by Eidolon customization?

I realize this is not clear in my original post, and it is very key to what I am asking for so let my clarify it here.

Right now, essentially all of the low level customization options for eidolons are combat focused. Here is the entire list of non combat customization options up to level 6:

lvl 1
sensory evolution: scent as an imprecise sense
synthesis: merge with your eidolon
unfettered eidolon: move outside 100 foot range (1min, focus)
dual studies: gain 2 skills

lvl 2
magical evolution: cast 2 cantrips

lvl 4
alacritous evolution: move faster
amphibious evolution: breath water and swim

lvl 6
climbing evolution: climb
hulking evolution: ride

You can chose one from each level. If you chose one of these it means you are missing out on one of the combat ones. If you want to multiclass, you will get less. A couple of these are borderline useless (synthesis as written, sensory evolution).

Compare this to the abilities of a familiar at first level. It is a joke. Familiars can do so much actual useful stuff outside combat.

If I am going to take a class that's primary feature is that I get a massive intelligent magical companion, I want that massive intelligent magical companion to be able to do something other than punch people.

So I don't know exactly what abilities an Eidolon should have access to at first level, but here are some ideas:

faster movement
riding
climbing
swimming
good sense of smell
roleplay/social(remember this is an intelligent creature)
carry equipment

I am not asking for all of those abilities on every Eidolon. I am asking that Eidolons are useful out of combat, starting lvl 1, and that I get to make meaningful choices about how they are useful, which do not limit my other choices as a character.

I would love to hear what abilities you guys think an Eidolon should have.

One of the huge themes that I see in posts in the summoner class topic, is people who are underwhelmed by the power of the eidolon as written. There are differing opinions as to the issues that make it underpowered, I have heard people asking to give it a separate health pool, or maybe access to skill feats, or maybe just more customization options generally. I agree that some more power needs to be given to the eidolon, and I think the underlying problem that all of these concerns stem from is the fact that the Summoner is a spellcasting class at all.

I know that might be a hard pill to swallow, but hear me out here. I don't think that summoners should not have access to magic, I just think that summoners should not be required to be spell casters, to the detriment of their primary ability. Basically I just want more options. I want to be able to build a viable summoner where my PC and my Eidolon fight side by side on the front line. I want to be able to build a viable summoner where combat is based around the synthesis ability, and merging with my Eidolon has a meaningful effect on combat. I want to be able to build a viable summoner where my PC is a healer in the back while my Eidolon keeps guards them from being approached. And certainly, I want to be able to build a viable spellcaster Summoner, like the one we have now, but I don't want to be required to build that.

The way the Summoner works right now, you have a PC who is a decent spell caster, paired with an cookie cutter eidolon which is a mediocre melee fighter. You can use all of your feats to make the eidolon a bit less cookie cutter and a bit better in combat, but considering that the eidolon is the defining feature of the class, it feels bad that it is overshadowed by the PC's spell casting ability.

The underlying problem there, as I see it, is that in order to keep a spellcasting class balanced, all of its other abilities have to be toned down somewhat. This obviously makes perfect sense, but the problem is that the core identity of the summoner is not spell casting, it is the Eidolon, or at least it should be. I know that is debatable and subjective, and that is what this thread is for, but here is my justification. If you are going to pick the summoner class, why do you pick it? Because you want an Eidolon. Certainly you might pick it because you want a spellcaster, but you would never pick it only because you want a spellcaster, because summoner is just a worse spellcaster than the dedicated casting classes.

So if you pick summoner, you are picking it because you want an Eidolon. You are essentially just getting the spellcasting part as an extra, which is not necessarily a problem in it self, but it means that you are giving up power of your primary ability, and customization of you character as a whole, to a feature that you did not have a choice in.

So my solution is, ditch spellcasting a default ability. Now, to keep the class balanced, the eidolon can be made much more powerful, and much more customizable. Make this customization of the eidolon not dependent on class feats. That way, a character is free to use their class feats for something else like, effective synthesis combat, or back line healing, or multiclassing to a spellcaster, or multiclassing to a combat character.

Overall this makes the class so much more customizable and so much more interesting. If you don't this is necessary, here is an example of how trying to customize a character goes right now:

The first character concept I came up with when I read the playtest material was a swashbuckler pirate who has an eidolon he can ride like a speedboat. This is a really cool concept, but with the way the rules are written right now, it is basically an impossible build. The problem arises from the fact that you simply do not have enough feats to take the swashbuckler archetype, and take any meaningful customization of the eidolon. Here is the summoner feats required for the build:

1: free choice
2: swashbuckler dedication
4: amphibious evolution for swim speed
6: hulking evolution for riding
8: finally can start taking swashbuckler feats

So basically, the build is unviable until 8th level or higher, and even then it feels like you are leaving a lot of really key eidolon customization on the table, just because you have to use your feats on the multiclass. Furthermore, my pirate is a spellcaster, which is something that I did not want, and that does not make sense narratively.

I understand that the class is based of of the first edition one and that my proposal would be a big shift away from that. I also understand that what I am proposing makes it not feel that much like a "summoner" in the sense that it actually summons things, but I think the class already doesn't feel like it is primarily a summoner, so it is not a big loss to make it less like one. I think the most important thing is to make a class that feels genuinely different from everything else, and that feels genuinely good to play, and I think my proposal would improve those aspects, even if it does stray a bit from the original concept.