A companion of mine is looking to build a dual wielding fighter for an upcoming campaign. Could anyone recommend an optimized build and which weapons/ancestries are best?
Pick and Light Pick.
I think you can't deal more average damage with any other combination.
Flurry ranger. Taking all the flurry feats building up to impossible flurry.
Unless it actually has to be the fighter class.
Ya it has to be the fighter class hehe, any feats specifically you recommend? Dipping into other dedications is fine as long as main chassis is Fighter
I don't think other class dedications are useful, it's just Flurry ranger ends up with the best two weapon fighting attack bonus in the game, eventually. The fighter does start off better though.
TWF in PF2 is mostly about using an agile weapon for your second attack.
As far as fighter class feats go, double slice is pretty obvious and I think most of the feats that have it as a pre-req (and in general feats that support TWF) are all pretty obvious.
To me, PF2 feat selection for fighting styles like this is mostly straight forward.
But there might be a few very specific recommendations someone else might have to enhance the capabilities.
Seems like their just aren't many two weapon feats on the fighter list.
Recommend any starting stats for him?
Seems like their just aren't many two weapon feats on the fighter list.
Recommend any starting stats for him?
Well, PF2 changed how TWF works considerably, there are a lot less feats needed compared to PF1. I mean, anyone can TWF (without additional penalties) without needing something the the Two Weapon Fighting feat from PF1. Agile weapons reduce MAP, but that applies if you also wielded the weapon as your only weapon on iterative attacks.
Double Slice, Twin Parry as a maybe, along with Twin Riposte. Two Weapon flurry. Twinned Defense, if you decided to do the previous required.
Dual Weapon Warrior archetype doesn't really sacrifice anything, as spending a class feat on it gets you double slice. As long as you weren't planning on multiclassing into something else you don't lose anything and there are a few good feats here that fighter doesn't get. Specifically Flensing Slice and Dual-Weapon Blitz are good and you don't get access to them as a fighter (I think).
Stats wise. Strength. You can wear full plate, so not too much dex. Con for survivability. Mental abilities don't get you much unless you plan to add on something like intimidation (which isn't bad) and then you might want some charisma.
"t's just Flurry ranger ends up with the best two-weapon fighting attack bonus in the game, eventually."
At what point is that?
At about what level is the Ranger on par with the fighter at two-weapon fighting?Definitely not at first Level.
I remember getting excited to play a two-weapon ranger and just being fully outclassed by the fighter at the same thing.
For sure at level 17, but I'd have to do some math to see if it's any earlier than that.
The flurry ranger wins out at high levels because Masterful Hunter makes the penalties for TWF with an agile weapon -1 for the second attack and -2 for third (and more) attacks. Combined with impossible flurry you can make 6 attacks all at -2 penalty to attack.
The fighter doesn't get an equivalent to make as many attacks and will take bigger penalties to hit that put have his first attack bonus above yours, and his second equals, and then any he might have after would be less.
Now, definitely it takes long time to reach this point where I'm positive the ranger is better. The question is if there is a break point before it where the fighter's higher attack bonus is balanced out by the rangers abilities, and I'm not positive on that.
Some input would be greatly appreciated:
Str 18
Dex 10
Con 16
Wis 12
Int 10
Cha 12
1- Sudden Charge
2- Dual Weapon Warrior Dedication (Double Slice)
4- Twin Parry
6-
8-Flensing Slice
10- Agile Grace
12- Disruptive Stance
14- Dual Onslaught
16- Graceful Poise
18-
The idea on the second round of combat would be to Double Slice (Pick + Light Pick) then a possible third action Light Pick attack which would be at -6 (Agile Grace) or Double Slice and then Twin Parry. Is this about right?
That just essentially swaps double slice for twin takedown, not really getting ahead.
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I think hammers are also worth consideration, bludgeoning is a better damage type and prone on a critical is nice.
Twin parry isn't worth it unless you use a parry weapon, and there's no weapon group with a parry weapon and good main hand weapon.
Personally double slice is the only feat to take at low levels, and it's all you really need, so I'd take a dedication to do something else. That depends what your friend wants to do, dandy for skills, blessed one for healing, a caster dedication for shield (much better than twin parry) and spells.
Otherwise blind fight at level 8 is worth taking.
Agile grace at 10. Two weapon flurry at 14. Graceful poise at 16. Are all worth taking, but they really aren't essential, you still want to double slice for most of your savage and they don't help that.
If you get to 16 retraining to twin parry and taking twin defense is an option.
Honestly all you really need is double slice, you can do literally anything with your feats, the two weapon feats help your third action, but you're good with just double slice.
So consider what else you might like to do other than just dual wield. Literally all you feats (except double slice) are free for that.
If going all out for damage, getting sneak attack from rogue dedication and using two agile weapons with Agile grace, Two weapon flurry, and Graceful poise will do more damage on a full attack, but that's not until very high level.
Taking dual weapon warrior for flensing slice at 8 also gives something good for a third action sometimes.
I think hammers are also worth consideration, bludgeoning is a better damage type and prone on a critical is nice.
Twin parry isn't worth it unless you use a parry weapon, and there's no weapon group with a parry weapon and good main hand weapon.
Personally double slice is the only feat to take at low levels, and it's all you really need, so I'd take a dedication to do something else. That depends what your friend wants to do, dandy for skills, blessed one for healing, a caster dedication for shield (much better than twin parry) and spells.
Otherwise blind fight at level 8 is worth taking.
Agile grace at 10. Two weapon flurry at 14. Graceful poise at 16. Are all worth taking, but they really aren't essential, you still want to double slice for most of your savage and they don't help that.
If you get to 16 retraining to twin parry and taking twin defense is an option.
Honestly all you really need is double slice, you can do literally anything with your feats, the two weapon feats help your third action, but you're good with just double slice.
So consider what else you might like to do other than just dual wield. Literally all you feats (except double slice) are free for that.
If going all out for damage, getting sneak attack from rogue dedication and using two agile weapons with Agile grace, Two weapon flurry, and Graceful poise will do more damage on a full attack, but that's not until very high level.
Taking dual weapon warrior for flensing slice at 8 also gives something good for a third action sometimes.
Ahh good points, which two hammers would you recommend?
War hammer and light hammer is pretty much your only choice.
Flurry ranger. Taking all the flurry feats building up to impossible flurry.
Unless it actually has to be the fighter class.
Impossible Flurry is a joke. It's so hard to use that a Double Slice Fighter will outdamage a Flurry Ranger always.
Anyway, it's the problem of the Flurry Ranger: It's good in theory, just in theory. In practice, you need 5 actions per round to make it shine.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Flurry ranger. Taking all the flurry feats building up to impossible flurry.
Unless it actually has to be the fighter class.
Impossible Flurry is a joke. It's so hard to use that a Double Slice Fighter will outdamage a Flurry Ranger always.
Anyway, it's the problem of the Flurry Ranger: It's good in theory, just in theory. In practice, you need 5 actions per round to make it shine.
Hasted move, free action hunt, flurry. What is impossible about that? Or hunt is already there (following a prey).
At lower levels, ranger is still comparable to fighter. Attacking at 0,-2,-4,-4 with a weapon combo you can choose (pick/hammer & dogslicer) isn't much worse than fighter, additionally you have the option to use second sting for attacks 3 and 4 (TT, SS, SS) which adds a lot of damage on misses.
So not sure why you think fighter will always outdamage ranger, as that is not the case.
Flurry ranger. Taking all the flurry feats building up to impossible flurry.
Unless it actually has to be the fighter class.
Impossible Flurry is a joke. It's so hard to use that a Double Slice Fighter will outdamage a Flurry Ranger always.
Anyway, it's the problem of the Flurry Ranger: It's good in theory, just in theory. In practice, you need 5 actions per round to make it shine.Hasted move, free action hunt, flurry. What is impossible about that? Or hunt is already there (following a prey).
At lower levels, ranger is still comparable to fighter. Attacking at 0,-2,-4,-4 with a weapon combo you can choose (pick/hammer & dogslicer) isn't much worse than fighter, additionally you have the option to use second sting for attacks 3 and 4 (TT, SS, SS) which adds a lot of damage on misses.
So not sure why you think fighter will always outdamage ranger, as that is not the case.
I've forgotten Swift Prey (but it means level 19). And Haste is not a given, it cost you actions to activate it or someone to cast it on you.
I have a sword and board Ranger. His 3-action sequence is Twin Takedown, Raise a Shield, Demoralize. I have my shield up 50% of the time, I Demoralize less than 10% of the time. In most combats, you have to Stride, Hunt Prey, Draw a weapon, or you are Stunned, Slowed, Prone, Sickened, or you can Step to get to flanking position and I don't count all the story elements forcing you to use actions. The 3-action attacks is just a theory. In real circumstances, even 2 actions are not a given. That's why I say this kind of builds who works wonder with 3 actions but are crappy otherwise are more often crappy than not.
So, on average, a Fighter will outdamage a Flurry Ranger because the situations where he is at an advantage are the actual combat situations.
And, as a side note, Impossible Flurry is not that strong (it's 50% better than what a Double Slice Fighter will deal) and outside Impossible Flurry, the Fighter is also at a strong advantage (+ 30% damage roughly).
Party composition counts. A whip bard with the swashbuckler reaction to add +2 circumstance to AC for allies in range and a shield liberator is usually in range means less defense for the ranger, he's the DPS with haste provided usually.
I don't agree with the numbers, spent quite some time playing around with them and while fighter is ahead on fewer actions, with full attacks they are comparable.
Well, PF2 changed how TWF works considerably, there are a lot less feats needed compared to PF1. I mean, anyone can TWF (without additional penalties) without needing something the the Two Weapon Fighting feat from PF1. Agile weapons reduce MAP, but that applies if you also wielded the weapon as your only weapon on iterative attacks.
I'm pretty sure you could do a similar style of TWF in PF1. It is just that you would only get the same amount of attacks as using a regular, single handed weapon. You just happened to substitute a different weapo for one of those iterative attacks. And I'm honestly unsure why you would bother to do that.
"t's just Flurry ranger ends up with the best two-weapon fighting attack bonus in the game, eventually."
At what point is that?
At about what level is the Ranger on par with the fighter at two-weapon fighting?Definitely not at first Level.
I remember getting excited to play a two-weapon ranger and just being fully outclassed by the fighter at the same thing.For sure at level 17, but I'd have to do some math to see if it's any earlier than that.
The flurry ranger wins out at high levels because Masterful Hunter makes the penalties for TWF with an agile weapon -1 for the second attack and -2 for third (and more) attacks. Combined with impossible flurry you can make 6 attacks all at -2 penalty to attack.
The fighter doesn't get an equivalent to make as many attacks and will take bigger penalties to hit that put have his first attack bonus above yours, and his second equals, and then any he might have after would be less.
Now, definitely it takes long time to reach this point where I'm positive the ranger is better. The question is if there is a break point before it where the fighter's higher attack bonus is balanced out by the rangers abilities, and I'm not positive on that.
I think level 1 at their 3rd attack (so the strike they make after twin take down.
They are -2 compared to a fighter on their first attack due to proficiency. I suppose their second attack is also a negative as well, but that is more of an issue of "double action feats vs. ignoring map feats".
But MAP catches up with a fighter on their 3rd hit, and the flurry ranger's third hit with an agile weapon is only at a -4 (which is where most people are with their second hit). And rangers can do a 4th hit at the same bonus on a good round. So for much of the game, their attacks aren't as good bonus wise, but they get so many of them that it is pretty much a moot argument.
Yeah, the flurry ranger is very much a quantity over quality character. And can run into trouble with action economy. Needing to move or hunt prey can make some rounds feel a lot weaker than what a fighter can do, but then on the rounds you can full attack the fighter might be feeling weaker than you.
It seems swingy overall. In comparison to the precision ranger, which does everything it needs to do in one attack, and I feel like it practically 'has to' go for animal companions or some other gimmick just to find something to do with the rest of its day.
I will note that you could always go for a precision ranger TWF. Your precision doesn't help the second attack, obviously, but you are getting two attacks with one action. Admittedly, the archery '2 for 1 action' feat is far more useful since you don't really have 1d12 bows you could use instead like you see when comparing melee TWF and 2 hander builds.
Which one would he benefit more from, haste or heroism if you could only have one? (Both level 3 versions)
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Which one would he benefit more from, haste or heroism if you could only have one? (Both level 3 versions)
A TWF fighter? Heroism, mostly to increase the chance to crit.
As we've discussed, the TWF fighter's MAP drops off considerably after they finish with their double slice. You will be hitting with -8 attacks (which hit a bit more like other classes -6, given the fighter's attack proficiency). The TWF fighter aims for two "really great" attacks at full attack bonus, so they have two good chances to crit.
Now a ranger? They want haste, since that helps the action economy issues. They can throw out -4 attacks all day without any worries. TWF rangers aim for many attacks with "decent" attack bonus that they can churn out many attacks that will reliably hit.
What If the ranger had a -6 to attack not a -4 on their 3rd+ attacks? Would Haste still be better than Heroism?
Flurry ranger. Taking all the flurry feats building up to impossible flurry.
Unless it actually has to be the fighter class.
Impossible Flurry is a joke. It's so hard to use that a Double Slice Fighter will outdamage a Flurry Ranger always.
Anyway, it's the problem of the Flurry Ranger: It's good in theory, just in theory. In practice, you need 5 actions per round to make it shine.Hasted move, free action hunt, flurry. What is impossible about that? Or hunt is already there (following a prey).
At lower levels, ranger is still comparable to fighter. Attacking at 0,-2,-4,-4 with a weapon combo you can choose (pick/hammer & dogslicer) isn't much worse than fighter, additionally you have the option to use second sting for attacks 3 and 4 (TT, SS, SS) which adds a lot of damage on misses.
So not sure why you think fighter will always outdamage ranger, as that is not the case.
I've forgotten Swift Prey (but it means level 19). And Haste is not a given, it cost you actions to activate it or someone to cast it on you.
I have a sword and board Ranger. His 3-action sequence is Twin Takedown, Raise a Shield, Demoralize. I have my shield up 50% of the time, I Demoralize less than 10% of the time. In most combats, you have to Stride, Hunt Prey, Draw a weapon, or you are Stunned, Slowed, Prone, Sickened, or you can Step to get to flanking position and I don't count all the story elements forcing you to use actions. The 3-action attacks is just a theory. In real circumstances, even 2 actions are not a given. That's why I say this kind of builds who works wonder with 3 actions but are crappy otherwise are more often crappy than not.
So, on average, a Fighter will outdamage a Flurry Ranger because the situations where he is at an advantage are the actual combat situations.
And, as a side note, Impossible Flurry is not that strong (it's 50% better than what a Double Slice Fighter will deal) and outside Impossible...
Haste is real common at high level. One of the better uses for a 3rd level slot on a caster that doesn't require heightening.
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I'm going to suggest you consider diversifying your weapons (as opposed to pick + light pick, or warhammer + light hammer or some such).
Advantages to having two different weapons:
--Very easy access to damage types that you need - consider that a longsword gives slashing and piercing and a light hammer gives you bludgeoning. Or if you're a Dwarf because you're awesome, your Clan Dagger gives you bludgeoning and piercing and your axe gives you slashing. Either way... with 0 actions to change weapons you can choose any of the physical damage types, and sometimes that's a big deal.
--Access to a wider range of weapon traits. There are loads of great weapon traits out there. If you're two-weapon fighting you're closing the door on many of the "combat maneuver" type actions - trip, shove, disarm, all of that. Some weapons have traits that put those options back on the table. Don't neglect the Thrown trait, occasionally that's really useful. Some people scan right past all of that because "it's not as good as doing damage" but my experience is that a party that is willing to spend some of their actions to screw with the enemy is a party that will do well, where as the party that focuses purely on damage will take quite a bit of damage in return.
Seems like a bad idea as a fighter. You need to focus on one weapon group.
Does it actually matter for a TWF character? Everyone is only going to aim for doubling rings, so you only need one well enhanced weapon. The other weapon can be whatever fits the moment. Have an entire golf bag of offhand weapons.
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Seems like a bad idea as a fighter. You need to focus on one weapon group.Does it actually matter for a TWF character? Everyone is only going to aim for doubling rings, so you only need one well enhanced weapon. The other weapon can be whatever fits the moment. Have an entire golf bag of offhand weapons.
Fighters have a preferred weapon group in which they are extra-proficient. If you like your warhammer and therefore pick Hammers to be great at, there's a significant cost to wielding a non-hammer in your offhand. The golf bag is a good idea anyway, but you should default to another hammer.
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Fighters have a preferred weapon group in which they are extra-proficient. If you like your warhammer and therefore pick Hammers to be great at, there's a significant cost to wielding a non-hammer in your offhand. The golf bag is a good idea anyway, but you should default to another hammer.Seems like a bad idea as a fighter. You need to focus on one weapon group.Does it actually matter for a TWF character? Everyone is only going to aim for doubling rings, so you only need one well enhanced weapon. The other weapon can be whatever fits the moment. Have an entire golf bag of offhand weapons.
That is actually a very good reason to pick Mauler as an archetype.... Lots of interesting weapons for the golf bag, at max proficiency. Bastard/rhoka sword, dwarven axe, etc.
I second jdripley's advice; diversify your weapons. I'd recommend one of the weapons have trip trait. Tripping is a great manoeuvre, particularly when you have attack of opportunity. A tripped opponent pretty much has two options: they remain prone, making them flat-footed and take a -2 penalty to their attacks or they stand, using up one action and provoking an aoo. In most situations either choice is good for you.
Interesting, what type of Runes do you all suggest on the weapons? Do you go with say Flaming/Frost etc or do you go for Fearsome since you are a Fighter with Double Slice and a legitimate chance to crit.
Seems like a bad idea as a fighter. You need to focus on one weapon group.
A lot of the archetypes and many of the ancestries have ways around this limit. Effectively giving you your top proficiency with a group of weapons.
Example Archer Dedication, Mauler Dedication, Elf/Dwarven Weapon Expertise etc etc. Depends which weapons you are after.
Got tired of reading the ranger argument.
Op, as others have said, double slice is great. But don't discount other attacks. Double slice is 2 actions and by the looks of it your going heavy armor.
So I'd consider other weapons as well and other attacks.
If all you want is damage. Picks are where it's at.
If you want a more utility critical effect hammers. Gnomes reach hammer is amazing as it's a one handed reach d8 weapon. The only issue is there is no agile reach hammer on the game.
But also check any feat that you'd also qualify for that isn't strictly dual wield. Like lunge that leads to lunging stance. Super good.
For early levels I like getting a shield boss and a light hammer and double slice.
Gives you all the benefits of a shield and of double slice.
Human natural ambition for the 2nd lvl 1 class feat get reactive shield and double slice at lvl 1.
At lvl 5 you can then retrain reactive shield since the chosen weapon group will make the 2nd weapon way outscale the shield boss.
Unless you want to dual wield 2 shields.
Stats max str, 10 or 12 dex, high wis and/or con can dump cha and int unless you want either for specific skills or character reasons.
If you want a more utility critical effect hammers. Gnomes reach hammer is amazing as it's a one handed reach d8 weapon. The only issue is there is no agile reach hammer on the game.
Are you referring to the Gnome Flickmace, which is a flail?
At lvl 5 you can then retrain reactive shield since the chosen weapon group will make the 2nd weapon way outscale the shield boss.
Unless you want to dual wield 2 shields.
Given the shield benefits ( AC, shield Block/Passive stuff ) I'd be fine with the second attack with a -2 rather than change it with a different weapon.
I mean, a -2 would bring your shield attack equal to any other combatant class.
With the -2 it's better to just ignore double slice and play play as a normal shield fighter using press strikes.
Are you referring to the Gnome Flickmace, which is a flail?If you want a more utility critical effect hammers. Gnomes reach hammer is amazing as it's a one handed reach d8 weapon. The only issue is there is no agile reach hammer on the game.
Lol yeah. Still a good critical effect imo
I prefer to differ.
I tend to value more a +2/+3 hit ( depends if you have an agile or not weapon in your main hand ) than a press move.
You mean a +1? -2 because of proficiency, -2 because not agile. So, clearly, just forget about Double Slice and use Press options.
That's the one real limiting factor for me with double strike. It's not that it's bad. It's just they I personally vastly prefer the options free hand and two hand weapon feats provide me.
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At lvl 5 you can then retrain reactive shield since the chosen weapon group will make the 2nd weapon way outscale the shield boss.
Unless you want to dual wield 2 shields.
Given the shield benefits ( AC, shield Block/Passive stuff ) I'd be fine with the second attack with a -2 rather than change it with a different weapon.
I mean, a -2 would bring your shield attack equal to any other combatant class.
There are benefits to sticking to a shield but it certainly doesn't fulfill the TWF fantasy.
I only suggested it because at lvl 1 AC counts for a lot given low healthpools and high attack value from monsters.
Fighter Double Slice -> 0, -4 with sword and board. (prof -2, not Agile -2, as already mentioned by SuperBibi).
Any other martial DS: 0, -2 (not Agile).