Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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This still doesn't address the fact that the character with the Eidolon + AC + Purchased Animal + character can be physically choking the board with tokens.
There is more than just the one problem here. So far, solutions seem to be addressing only one of the multiple problems.
Choking the board with tokens is a problem, to be sure. But I think you can do that even without any familiars (which are usually tiny so don't really block the way) or animal companions; just a poorly-placed summons on a map with more 5ft corridors than is healthy and a six player party.
It might be a bit more likely if you have multiple pets. But given how extremely hard it is to have multiple pets with stats high enough to survive a round in the front row, I don't think it's really all that likely. I think the summons, being expendable, are actually the most likely to contribute to this problem.
But what are the other problems that you want to solve?
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Firstly, as far as I know, the witch's familiar is only necessary for prepping spells at the beginning of the day. I do not beleive it is needed to be present for casting. Therefore the concern of a witch's familiar during combat is moot if the player is not intending to use the familiar during combat. The familiar could be miles away.
Secondly, I will admit that I do have some cringeworthy stories of PF1 players and multiple creatures under their control. In PF2 that issue, while action-wise is less complex, could still be an issue. Players who control multiple creatures could still bog down play with not having stat blocks prepped and ready. They could also consistenty block every other melee character from participating in small map encounters. These are still issues, though they are player issues.
I think that GMs should be able to give warnings to players that bring such characters that disrupt play. And that can then follow up if the disruption continues with a removal of said player. Some folks might be concerned with the liberty that this gives GMs, but said GMs still have to answer for their rulings to the VO organizers.
As a GM, I'd be very interested in a witch that casts a summon; cackles and casts a summon again; cackles a second time, sustains the second summon, and then quickens a third summon. That said, I would warn the player that their very neat build should not remove other players' ability to contribute. "You can have all the fun you want, so long as it is not at the expense of the rest of the table." Be respectful, this is a cooperative game after all.
Ya'know, regardless of how the rules turn out I'll probably run it this way anyway. It is fair to those who are prepped and respectful and blunt to those who are not.
If your character is level 3 and your turn takes longer than 2 minutes (this is being generous), you are disrespecting the time of everyone else at the table. At level 1 your character (and maybe even you) is new. Maybe you are experimenting with different builds. At level 2 your character may still be a little new. You have just had to finalize your character. By level 3 you played with it for a little bit. You been playing the game for at least 6 sessions. I don't expect complete system mastery, but I do expect you to know how your character works...it's your character...
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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Firstly, as far as I know, the witch's familiar is only necessary for prepping spells at the beginning of the day. I do not beleive it is needed to be present for casting. Therefore the concern of a witch's familiar during combat is moot if the player is not intending to use the familiar during combat. The familiar could be miles away.
Minions: With the exception of temporary creatures, such as those created by summon spells, no character can have more than one minion. Purchased Mounts do not count as minions, provided they do not take part in combat.
The issue is the wording. By the wording, you can not have more than one minion. It says nothing about "during combat" or nothing about how active those minions can be - if you have an animal companion, you can't have another minion, and if you don't have your familiar, you can't prepare spells. This is just the most glaring problem, but this rule affects, at a less dramatic level, also the druid who wants to have a leshy in addition to their animal companion just so that they can get +1 cantrip and an additional focus point (or something). Meanwhile, there is literally no scenario where that +1 cantrip and some other ability suddenly becomes disruptive for play when combined with an animal companion.
That's the issue. The rule, while trying to pre-emptively prevent some problems that we don't even know about (because no reason for this ruling has been given) makes builds that are legal and clearly not problematic, illegal.
The familiar in your pocket does not choke the board. The familiar attempting to ride your wolf is another problem entirely and is not solved with this (you can use a summon or another player's AC). The familiar in your pocket does not consume time nor actions during combat. Frankly, even if the issue is "taking more time" because you decide to command both your familiar and AC, that's less actions for you (unlike in PFS1 where AC's and summons didn't eat your actions) so whether they actually take more time (simply because of the number of PCE or pawns) is up to debate.
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make a rule limiting purchased animalsI disagree. We don't need to punish all the players who can manage multiple tokens just because a few cannot be bothered to be prepared. This should fall under the GM/organizer discretion the same as if a caster cannot decide what to cast or a complex build cannot decide which of their laundry list of actions to take. As it was said up thread, this is a player problem, not a rules problem.
No. We agree. I don't believe this rule is appropriate in PF2, and if some hypothetical table with far too many creatures manifested, I think the GM should mediate a solution.
I was trying to point out that there's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The only source of a single PC flooding the map is purchased/bonded animals to generate some pseudo-paralysis effect on the map. Otherwise, you're stuck at a worst case scenario of a PC, an eidolon, and an animal companion (that will suck). Therefore, if we must for some inexplicable reason have a rule because someone came up with it and OP can't step back and say, "Whoops, no need for that rule," then limit the rule to limiting purchased animals, which aren't part of a class feature but a function of gold/equipment.
PC with 12 dogs.
Round 1 (3 actions): Stride 25 ft, Command dog to stride, Command dog to stride.
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Round 5 (3 actions): Command dog to stride, Stride 25 ft, start over...
So your exploration movement speed would be 2/15th's of your base speed. I would also argue that you could not conduct another exploration activity while herding your pack.
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Reality Check: The Eidolon, Animal Companion, Familiar
Summoner
1st level: Starts with an Eidolon
2nd level: Beastmaster archetype (this is really part of your "problem" here--early access compared to Druid MC or Ranger MC) provides Young Animal Companion
4th level: Mature Animal Companion (because who wouldn't)
6th level: Some other Beastmaster feat
8th level: Witch MC archetype (the other part of your "problem" here--familiar early access compared to Wizard MC or Sorcerer MC) provides a familiar with ONE ability
10th level: Basic Witchcraft (so the familiar now has 3 abilities--1 for a single independent action and 2 more)
Outside of Beastmaster
Summoner
1st level: Starts with Eidolon
2nd level: Witch MC for familiar (with one ability)
4th level: Basic Witchcraft
6th level: Basic Spellcasting
8th level: Druid MC
10th level: Basic Wilding for a Young Companion (that will suck)
12th level: Advanced Wilding for a Mature Companion
These are terrible builds.
I also wouldn't allow a Summoner MC archetype if it gives the eidolon as part of the introductory feat, just my opinion.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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The new text is online:
Pawns: In Encounter Mode, each PC is typically represented by a pawn. Animal Companions, purchased animals and summoned creatures, and any other creature whose location affects combat are also usually represented by some sort of pawn. With the exception of temporary creatures who last no more than an encounter or two, such as those created by summon spells, no character can place more than 2 pawns per adventure. Familiars who stay in their owner’s square during encounter mode do not require pawns.
While I'm still unsure why there's a need to limit a familiar from leaving your square if you also have an animal companion, I'm still really happy with this change. It's probably roughly 147 times better than the originally intended rule.
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So I can place my purchased horse and purchased dog for the scenario, avoiding risk to my PC, and getting credit for the scenario. Good way to play up tier. Cool! *eye-roll*
Maybe ask the designers for help writing this house rule.
EDIT: As much as I don't want to help...
"no character can place more than 2 pawns per adventure."
should be
"no player may place more than their character and 1 additional pawn per adventure"
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Okay, I have to ask what the end game is here? What exactly are we trying to prevent? Has there been a sudden increase in multi-pawn abuse? Are we expecting the summoner class to be exploitable? If the issue is a player with a lot of pawns on table and thereby making it such that the other players at the table cannot participate, we already have a rule for that — “don’t be a jerk.” Rather than arbitrarily create house rules for PFS, which is something the leadership is supposedly wanton to do, leave it to the local lodges and organizers to determine if/when a player is exploiting the rules and not participating in good faith? We supposedly trust our players to follow the rules, so why not let them? And we are supposed to trust our organizer and Venture-Officers to review cases of bad behavior and take appropriate action. If we don’t want to create non-core variant rules unless absolutely necessary, then don’t.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Hagerstown
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Pawns: In Encounter Mode, each PC is typically represented by a pawn. Animal Companions, purchased animals and summoned creatures, and any other creature whose location affects combat are also usually represented by some sort of pawn. With the exception of temporary creatures who last no more than an encounter or two, such as those created by summon spells, no character can place more than 2 pawns per adventure. Familiars who stay in their owner’s square during encounter mode do not require pawns.
Here is the final product. Not happy with it, but guess it is what it is now.
Make sure your familiar stays in you pockets.
Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley
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Pawns: In Encounter Mode, each PC is typically represented by a pawn. Animal Companions, purchased animals and summoned creatures, and any other creature whose location affects combat are also usually represented by some sort of pawn. With the exception of temporary creatures who last no more than an encounter or two, such as those created by summon spells, no character can place more than 2 pawns per adventure. Familiars who stay in their owner’s square during encounter mode do not require pawns.Here is the final product. Not happy with it, but guess it is what it is now.
Make sure your familiar stays in you pockets.
Why aren't you happy with it? The familiar just has to stay in your square, not in a pouch or anything. Basically, if it's just there for focus points you're fine to have something else.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Hagerstown
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Why aren't you happy with it? The familiar just has to stay in your square, not in a pouch or anything. Basically, if it's just there for focus points you're fine to have something else.Pawns: In Encounter Mode, each PC is typically represented by a pawn. Animal Companions, purchased animals and summoned creatures, and any other creature whose location affects combat are also usually represented by some sort of pawn. With the exception of temporary creatures who last no more than an encounter or two, such as those created by summon spells, no character can place more than 2 pawns per adventure. Familiars who stay in their owner’s square during encounter mode do not require pawns.Here is the final product. Not happy with it, but guess it is what it is now.
Make sure your familiar stays in you pockets.
It is restricting options that were well balanced and already in place by the Core Rule Book and brings a house rule in that goes against core. Twilightknight said it better.
One of the design intentions stated for PFS2 was to, whenever possible, house rules that deviate from the core rules. The core rules already have an inherent limitation system for minions with the requirement for their master to invest actions or they do little to nothing on their own. Adding a house rule to PFS2 to limit minions is completely unnecessary and breaks that “promise” to adhere as closely as possible to core.
It does nothing to truly fix the problem with "clogging the board", which was one of the reasons,allegedly, it was made up. As what multiple others have said, summons can "clog the board" more effectively.
Edit: removed snarky comment
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Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley
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Why aren't you happy with it? The familiar just has to stay in your square, not in a pouch or anything. Basically, if it's just there for focus points you're fine to have something else.Pawns: In Encounter Mode, each PC is typically represented by a pawn. Animal Companions, purchased animals and summoned creatures, and any other creature whose location affects combat are also usually represented by some sort of pawn. With the exception of temporary creatures who last no more than an encounter or two, such as those created by summon spells, no character can place more than 2 pawns per adventure. Familiars who stay in their owner’s square during encounter mode do not require pawns.Here is the final product. Not happy with it, but guess it is what it is now.
Make sure your familiar stays in you pockets.
It is restricting options that were well balanced and already in place by the Core Rule Book and brings a house rule in that goes against core. Twilightknight said it better.
One of the design intentions stated for PFS2 was to, whenever possible, house rules that deviate from the core rules. The core rules already have an inherent limitation system for minions with the requirement for their master to invest actions or they do little to nothing on their own. Adding a house rule to PFS2 to limit minions is completely unnecessary and breaks that “promise” to adhere as closely as possible to core.It does nothing to truly fix the problem with "clogging the board", which was one of the reasons it was made up. As what multiple others have said, summons can "clog the board" more effectively.
But hey, at least we settled on a term to call them
You keep talking about the problem with clogging the board. No one can have more than one summon spell active at a time, so the idea that a single person could summon a bunch of creatures just isn't there.
There's no rule stopping someone from doing that? How about the fact summon spells are sustained, and take three actions to cast. In order to cast another, you would have to give up the one you have already.
The point of this rule is to stop INDIVIDUAL players from clogging the board with a ton of tokens, stopping allies from being able to do what they want. If one of the theoretical summoner beastmaster witches showed up with a large AC, Huge eidolon, their familiar and summoned a huge creature along side them all, you would probably be pretty pissed at that one guy for taking up 24 squares just to themselves. If the party as a whole decides it's a good idea to summon a bunch of creatures together, that's a completely different scenario. Blame can't be placed an any one of the players since they're all participating.
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No one can have more than one summon spell active at a time, so the idea that a single person could summon a bunch of creatures just isn't there.
It’s possible this rule is designed for future proofing. If the themes for the summoner from 1E are any indication, there may be a way for it to spam summoning and having the eidolon at the same time would certainly be a good start to the battlefield cluttering. We won’t really know until next year when the new materials are released.
If one of the theoretical summoner beastmaster witches showed up with a large AC, Huge eidolon, their familiar and summoned a huge creature along side them all, you would probably be pretty pissed at that one guy for taking up 24 squares just to themselves.
To be fair that’s not going to happen until a relatively high level and in PFS it’s not really a major problem and even if it does come up in some very rare case, the GM/organizer/VO can determine if it really is disrupting to play and take appropriate action.
As you said, spamming the table is going to be very rare and require A LOT of intentional investments. We just don’t need a special rule for this—unless org play knows something that we don’t.
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Illusory Creature is a 2-action spell that gives you a minion.
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This rule change is a bummer. One of my players likes to use his bat familiar to fly around and deliver Vomit Swarm spells and the like. Its a bummer that such a use in PFS would preclude also having an animal companion, especially since the game's base rules were balanced around such a use.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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The argument that the summoner might break it a year from now is a really terrible reason to do this now.
The history of PFS is full of disasters where they waited till something broke the game to put a rule in, and people immediately pledged to break the game worse in retaliation.
It has (possibly) made them a little overly proactive about putting in rules *before* things break the game.