I'm wondering what people envision the summoner doing from round to round in combat? What does three or four rounds look like in your mind?
Average fight in PF2 seems to be 4 to 8 rounds. What do your rounds look like in the mind's eye? What's our damage source? What kind of actions are you taking?
Here's what I did with my summoner:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs436fo?On-Practical-Tactics
pineapple, bristles first
Here's what I did with my summoner:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs436fo?On-Practical-Tactics
Makes sense within the current limits of the class.
Don't see it as more fun than commanding a second creature given nearly every caster that can will cast electric arc when it is available on the spell list or with a feat, but given what you can build right now that is a decent enough action sequence.
Personally I miss the old pet army Summoner/Necromancer. The new minion rules and 3 action economy, while I understand the balance needs, annoy me to no end. Balance considerations aside, its thematic that a pet class control an army not a single pet (or two).
My groups never had an issue with the summoner/necromancer getting the limelight when all casters could summon to some extent and the summoned creatures as a whole are much weaker than PCs. The martials either had their own followers/squire npcs or they did so much damage with the full attack options they still out-shined what the pet army could do.
Currently, as a GM, im stumped on how to make my usual pet army villian using the rules as written. For now im using Diplomacy rules just to give my necromancer intelligent undead to use (which kinda kills the whole they are in control bit from the older rules).
I don't think horde based pet builds were ever outshining other PCs and that's why they were practically removed/constrained by the new action economy. It's because the time they took up at the table was extreme, with very little payoff.
When a mass summoner was in your party, combat slowed to a crawl so much so that people had to come up with ways to streamline everything. From a design point of view, limiting that is good. Now, if/when we see a system for mass minions that work in PF2, I'm certain that playstyle will return. (Maybe with swarm-esque rules)
Personally I miss the old pet army Summoner/Necromancer. The new minion rules and 3 action economy, while I understand the balance needs, annoy me to no end. Balance considerations aside, its thematic that a pet class control an army not a single pet (or two).
My groups never had an issue with the summoner/necromancer getting the limelight when all casters could summon to some extent and the summoned creatures as a whole are much weaker than PCs. The martials either had their own followers/squire npcs or they did so much damage with the full attack options they still out-shined what the pet army could do.
Currently, as a GM, im stumped on how to make my usual pet army villian using the rules as written. For now im using Diplomacy rules just to give my necromancer intelligent undead to use (which kinda kills the whole they are in control bit from the older rules).
I don't think horde based pet builds were ever outshining other PCs and that's why they were practically removed/constrained by the new action economy. It's because the time they took up at the table was extreme, with very little payoff.
When a mass summoner was in your party, combat slowed to a crawl so much so that people had to come up with ways to streamline everything. From a design point of view, limiting that is good. Now, if/when we see a system for mass minions that work in PF2, I'm certain that playstyle will return. (Maybe with swarm-esque rules)
One extra creature doesn't slow down much at all. Way better than the crazy Master Summoner with 6 or more creatures with full actions.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, yeah. Pretty much why I said "mass" summoning and "horde" summoning.
Well, yeah. Pretty much why I said "mass" summoning and "horde" summoning.
I definitely agree.
|
Well I can tell you from the level 5 test session I played it was "cast Boost Eidolon, then primary/secondary/secondary attack with the beast" every round the vast majority of the time. Spell slots were too precious to use without extreme care.
I did end up using three-action Heal over and over in one fight, but mainly because it was perfect for that encounter. (invisible undead enemies that did close range AoE attacks)
My summoner was an elf with ancestral bow training, since I wanted to play him kind of like a hunter, but the shared multiple attack penalty and weaker summoner proficiency (trained versus the eidolon's expert) meant it was only ever used as a backup when enemies were out of convenient melee range.
PF1, I liked to use my eidolon as a super mount and highly mobile battle platform, so I could zip around the battlefield, or high above it, and litter it with control spells. Walls, Pits, Tentacles, Summon Monster from spell slots, etc. Totally divide and conquer. Then use hit and run to pick off weakened targets my allies didn't get to.
|
From the Level 8 playtest runs with 4 Summoners I've done so far:
Haste is a godlike early cast as you can chain-cast it on everyone at the start of combat.
Divine Summoner (Archetypes Medic, Herbalist): Doctor's Visitation, Elixir of Life, Battle Medicine, Healer's Gloves. ALL the 1Act healing options. One round was spent 3-Act healing vs an undead horde. Boost Eidolon when healing was not necessary. Spell Slots were used exclusively on Heal and Vital Beacon, Freedom of Movement was also there as an emergency option.
Primal Summoner (Archetype Bard): Tandem Move sucks on Beast Eidolon, since it wants to engage with its unique action wherever it can. Summoner spent many single acts failing to cast Lingering Performance, was most likely to cast Boost Eidolon out of the set. Had Manifold Missiles, but forgot to cast it often due to IC being priority and fights working out that by the time I could cast it it felt like it'd be overkill. Bard spells possessed Liberating Command, but it went unused. One turn I was able to stack a Crashing Wave with Dragon Breath from Arcane Summoner Eidolon, felt great. Spell list was Fireball, Haste, Wall of Fire, Crashing Wave.
Occult Summoner (Loremaster): Most likely to cast Manifold Missiles round 1 or 2, creating a persistent free source of light DPS for the fight. Build ran Tandem Move/Ranged Evolution to keep Eidolon adjacent to the Summoner and contribute from range. Several turns after setup were Tandem Move to get in range, Act Together Boost/Strike, Strike with rest. Ranged Evolution felt good to use for damage even without the Brutal trait. Hypercognition was used several times and was effective, ran into some issues vs named monsters but 6 dice is an okay chance of rolling a nat 20 on one so good info was still found in there. Spell List was Slow (cast but the one time it was used the enemy rolled a nat 15 and crit successed it), Hypercognition, two other spells that went unused; would probably add in Soothe/Resilient Sphere or Haste in future runs.
Arcane Summoner (Beastmaster): Command Animal, occassionally Manifold Missiles. Character was often in the extreme backline immobile due to focusing all of their actions toward Pet utilization. Act Together became Command Animal 100% of the time in combat, Boost Eidolon almost unused. DPS felt good, and the character could set up Flank by themself. Animal of choice was a Cat, and admittedly Cat Pounce (Stride/Strike as a 1 Act) was great for Action Economy here. Spells went unused in combat as they had the lowest save DC, but Resilient Sphere was very tempting as a shielding option a few times, and Stoneskin was used to prepare several times.
Manifold Missiles was on every character that could use Magic Missile, wands were carried in off-hand into every fight as it can become a full fight DPS increase that effectively stacks with Boost Eidolon for a 1 Action Cost upfront. Other hand was typically Haste Scroll or a healing potion, aka their PFS school of Spells item picks since this was a PFS scenario we were using to test.
Felt good overall, but admittedly did require a ton of Archetyping for some of the builds. Raw summoner could probably benefit from more turn-by-turn actions.