It looks like I'm the only one that sees a problem with this, but if this topic is already mentioned in another thread please redirect me.
From what I read about the summoner it seems they have a very complex system for eidolons, they even have some cool stuff like shared HP and actions and all, very creative.
But why? Why not just giving a sumomoner a animal companion? I mean, why creating a whole new rules and another complicated systems if you already have one that works and it's already pretty neat.
I love the witch ideia of giving extra power to your familiar, it would be so much simpler to make the same with summoner here. Give the summoner the animal companion ability then give it extra stuff based on your eidolon origin.
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I think you'll find that many players - including several who typically have been disagreeing will unit on this point.
Summoner fans simply don't want an animal companion for the Summoner. An Eidolon shluld be special, personal, and customizable.
How special, personal and customizable is hotly debated - but I dont think an Animal Companion or similar will please many.
An Eidolon shluld be special, personal, and customizable.
I think the same here, just thought enhancing animal companions would be a more elegant choice, I don't see why animal companions couldn't be all of those things, giving it the right attention.
I'm not saying the way Eidolon works is bad, I just think it's unnecessarily complicated giving there's already a system that cover a similar way of playing
Honestly if the beastmaster archetype allowed more fantastic base creatures (such as the various outsider types, undead, etc), had some evolution-like feats to pick up new special abilities, and the option to summon/banish it, I would be all down for playing that class/archetype.
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Couldn't be less interested in that direction for the summoner.
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Druids already exist, as well as Beastmaster. Eidolons being ACs would add absolutely nothing to the game.
So I am guessing what RuinPranick meant was why not have a minion eidolon with his own hit points.
Why create this clutch of exceptions that the summoner is now.
Its a fair argument. The current sharing hitpoints and actions eidiolon isn't something that has been playtested and known to work, whereas minions are a part of the game everyone is familiar with.
Its definitely a fair question, but its also fair to say that a new book and expiramental class is definitely the place to get at least a little bit experimental.
The animal companion model is certainly safe - but it also doesn't allow for simple things like an Eidolon being able to Aid, because they don't have access to a reaction without an exception.
So, essentially, we'd already be needing to make exceptions for the AC model regardless unless we're ok with Eidolons being locked out of some fundamental stuff.
If we're taking some simple steps regardless, we might as well explore our options - within reason.
So I am guessing what RuinPranick meant was why not have a minion eidolon with his own hit points.
Why create this clutch of exceptions that the summoner is now.
Its a fair argument. The current sharing hitpoints and actions eidiolon isn't something that has been playtested and known to work, whereas minions are a part of the game everyone is familiar with.
Exactly! I'm ok with making a whole new thing with summoners and apparently the community would hate animal companions on them, and I'm totally ok with that.
But there's no reason to create so much exceptions and rule juggling on a class if there's already a rule that cover this problem, just make them minions for god sake!
Thanks for translating my ideias so clearly
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Besides, if you are going to try something new, a playtest is a great place to do it.
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So I am guessing what RuinPranick meant was why not have a minion eidolon with his own hit points.
Why create this clutch of exceptions that the summoner is now.
Its a fair argument. The current sharing hitpoints and actions eidiolon isn't something that has been playtested and known to work, whereas minions are a part of the game everyone is familiar with.
That’s literally what we’re doing right now :3
Its definitely a fair question, but its also fair to say that a new book and expiramental class is definitely the place to get at least a little bit experimental.
I might be a little to conservative on this point, but I think is to soon to experiment so much, the game is not even 1 year old.
I've said this on another post, but this makes me afraid it becomes 3.5 all over again, if so much new rules and subsystems are being created this early in the game, imagine 4 or 5 years from now.
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but I think is to soon to experiment so much, the game is not even 1 year old.
Couldn't disagree more. IMO a game that builds every class in the same way would be a pretty boring game.
Frankly, I'm not even sure I agree that the Summoner is all that experimental, complex, or rules breaking in the first place.
Minions come with a set of restrictions that an Eidolon doesn't have. The Eidolon scales up with zero feat investment, can use 3 actions at level one on its own without you having to give it actions, you can ride your Eidolon and get its specialty movement without requiring a animal type feature. An optional feat to add a minion to a class is very different to a companion built into the class.
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I agree in that they shouldn't have just thrown the Minion Trait in the trash after the masterstroke that is was for system balance compared to previous editions.
Instead, we got something new and experimental, I guess we'll just have to see how it shakes out in the end.
Animal Companion require feat investment to scale that's just one example of minions, summons don't require and scale with spell level.If the eidolon is using three actions at level 1 or any level you are giving it three actions it doesn't come with any of it's own.
To effectively ride the eidolon you need a Feat (that makes it large and locks it out of some environments permantly) so pretty square with animal companions who also are faster.
First sentence is what I said, so I don't understand what your getting at.
Second sentence means nothing. You have 3 actions between you, you do not give your actions to the Eidolon. You can be somewhere else and the Eidolon can still use those actions. Animal companions need to be commanded to do anything other then defend themselves/ run away.To ride anything it needs to be large, so that's not unique. Eidolons can climb, swim and eventually fly while only animal companions with the mount trait can do such.
Eidolons use your runes, they can also use all basic actions, like interact.
So no, I would not say square.
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Its definitely a fair question, but its also fair to say that a new book and expiramental class is definitely the place to get at least a little bit experimental.
I might be a little to conservative on this point, but I think is to soon to experiment so much, the game is not even 1 year old.
I've said this on another post, but this makes me afraid it becomes 3.5 all over again, if so much new rules and subsystems are being created this early in the game, imagine 4 or 5 years from now.
The game is over a year old, and will be two years old when these classes come out.
At the equivalent point of PF1, both Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic were released.
I think these classes are both more experimental than the previous 16, but I don't feel they're pushing the envelope TOO hard yet.
At least, not to the extent I expect we'll see in the rest of the book.
Your response to my second statement is a little silly, clearly before you summon the eidolon you have the same number of actions and hps as after therfore all the hps and actions belong to you and the eidolon bring nothing to the party.All the actions the eidolon uses are ones you gave it.
Because the eidolon and the summoner are effectively only one character and don't need investment. This is why they share hit point, class feats pool and actions.
Because the eidolon and the summoner are effectively only one character and don't need investment. This is why they share hit point, class feats pool and actions.
Is it really necessary?
Alchemist get better at advanced alchemy via features and not feats necessarily, same with barbarian and fury or ranger and prey hunt.
The eidolon could evolve by features, maybe by sacrificing mastering to expert in weapon training. and make the proficiencies of the eidolon independent of the summoner.
The first statement is that not all minions are the same and need feats.
Your response to my second statement is a little silly, clearly before you summon the eidolon you have the same number of actions and hps as after therfore all the hps and actions belong to you and the eidolon bring nothing to the party.All the actions the eidolon uses are ones you gave it.
Animal companions and creature summons do not scale up on their own. You have to spend resources on them, the summoner has those resources free to spend elsewhere. The expenditure just needs to be worth it.
The Eidolon doesn't need you to do anything to use those actions. You can't command an animal if it can't hear you. You can cast unfettered Eidolon, then goto another plane and your Eidolon can continue to fight for one minute. All you need to do is be alive and usually, but not always, be within 100 feet. Also as far as I can tell you don't need to be conscious either, you can be sleeping while your Eidolon fights, at least until it takes damage.
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The first statement is that not all minions are the same and need feats.
Your response to my second statement is a little silly, clearly before you summon the eidolon you have the same number of actions and hps as after therfore all the hps and actions belong to you and the eidolon bring nothing to the party.All the actions the eidolon uses are ones you gave it.
Animal companions and creature summons do not scale up on their own. You have to spend resources on them, the summoner has those resources free to spend elsewhere. The expenditure just needs to be worth it.
The Eidolon doesn't need you to do anything to use those actions. You can't command an animal if it can't hear you. You can cast unfettered Eidolon, then goto another plane and your Eidolon can continue to fight for one minute. All you need to do is be alive and usually, but not always, be within 100 feet. Also as far as I can tell you don't need to be conscious either, you can be sleeping while your Eidolon fights, at least until it takes damage.
I'd argue that if the summoner was to be the class with a built in minion, it should probably work like the Witch (the class for familiars) and give you a slightly more powerful than normal animal companion-level eidolon and then automatically progress that eidolon over the course of the class with options for extra things via class feats. They don't auto scale for druids and beast masters etc., but probably should for the summoner. That's their shtick after all.