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Remaining silent on it communicates nothing at best, or false disinterest at worst.Who advocated for that?If you don’t believe, how can it become?mentioning ideas they have had and are thinking of is in no way admittance of said changes or anything like them happening. and mark mentioned as much.
so while you can be hopeful, dont push that narrative around because it is pure assumption.
It's being realistic. Admitting that hopefulness is like a bandaid to a bullet wound, or a person to stop an oncoming tide, or winning a lottery with probability in the millions, or even billions, and that's assuming it's not rigged.
Yes, you miss 100% of the shots you don't make, but I am fairly certain that Paizo can and will do their own thing as they always have. It's not like they can't, and won't really suffer as a result.
Which is totally meaningless as it's not part of the class: ANYONE can take it so how is this a win for the summoner?A fighter surrounded by enemies can’t really stop fighting to patch themselves up real quick. It’s not gonna turn out good.
And a summoner surrounded by enemies can't either... So?
Being a summoner doesn't automatically ward off enemies and being a fighter doesn't mean you're in the middle of enemies. I mean a fighter can pick up a bow and fire at range...
If you don’t believe, how can it become?
Seeing is believing and I haven't seen any updates. :P
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If you don’t believe, how can it become?Seeing is believing and I haven't seen any updates. :P
Not sure if it was specifically this playtest or not but generally these shorter-term playtests DON'T get updates！ The APG classes didn't, the nanocyte didn't either. And, seriously, given all the bloody back and forth bickering with neither side giving ground or concessions, I see why this is a short playtest. Also any updates now are likely to be bemoaned by one group or the other.
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Not sure if it was specifically this playtest or not but generally these shorter-term playtests DON'T get updates！ The APG classes didn't, the nanocyte didn't either. And, seriously, given all the bloody back and forth bickering with neither side giving ground or concessions, I see why this is a short playtest. Also any updates now are likely to be bemoaned by one group or the other.If you don’t believe, how can it become?Seeing is believing and I haven't seen any updates. :P
IIRC I am pretty sure I remember it being mentioned by Paizo that the playtest document would not be updated for this one as well, but I don't remember where I read that at.
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The Summoner might, of course, but they’re not required to like martial characters are.
Where is the requirement that martials are in melee surrounded by enemies? This all has nothing to do with the 'more mobile' healing being a factor outside the summoner that anyone can get.
It’s the Playtest.
Not talking about things we want or like will be disastrous. So what if it’s not implemented yet, push for the positive.
Never said a SINGLE word about talking about things we want or like: I talked about USING ALTERNATE RULES instead of those in the pdf for the playtest. I'm all for the one and against the other.
Not sure if it was specifically this playtest or not but generally these shorter-term playtests DON'T get updates!
Oh I know we aren't likely to see an update: that doesn't really change my thoughts on the matter. For myself, I was asked to playtest the rules in the pdf so those are the rules I use, not ones I THINK are better.
IIRC I am pretty sure I remember it being mentioned by Paizo that the playtest document would not be updated for this one as well, but I don't remember where I read that at.
LOL With the number of threads flying around, it's hard to pin down where you hear something but I too recall hearing that. Something about the short 2 month run I think.
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Where is the requirement that martials are in melee surrounded by enemies? This all has nothing to do with the 'more mobile' healing being a factor outside the summoner that anyone can get.If you’re a martial and you’re not engaging enemies in combat wtf are you doing?
Never said a SINGLE word about talking about things we want or like: I talked about USING ALTERNATE RULES instead of those in the pdf for the playtest. I'm all for the one and against the other.
You didn’t, but the other poster I quoted did.
As for trying out alternate rules to see what works, that’s one of the points of the Playtest, finding out what works, what feels good, and giving feedback.
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If you’re a martial and you’re not engaging enemies in combat wtf are you doing?
Attacking doesn't mean engaging in melee combat anymore than a summoner casting ranged attack spells does.
As for trying out alternate rules to see what works, that’s one of the points of the Playtest, finding out what works, what feels good, and giving feedback.
Where does the playtest say to ignore the rules in the playtest and make up your own? I must have missed that section of the PDF. Have a quote or page number?
I mean if you want to, I not going to stop you but I'm not going to. That was the suggestion I was replying to: that I personally should use different rules because Mark mused about different ways to do it.
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Checked around to just see if it was on the Paizo blog and it kinda is? Pretty sure I heard a stronger confirmation than this but this implies no updates to the playtest doc at least. Bold added by me for emphasis.
Anything can change based on the results of the playtest! These are early iterations of the new classes; some abilities might be a bit extreme or stretch some assumptions of the game, and the best way to find out if we’ve gone too far (or in the wrong direction) is for us to deliver these classes into your hands. We don’t expect to release any changes to these classes during the playtest itself, only in the final version of the book.
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Checked around to just see if it was on the Paizo blog and it kinda is? Pretty sure I heard a stronger confirmation than this but this implies no updates to the playtest doc at least. Bold added by me for emphasis.Anything can change based on the results of the playtest! These are early iterations of the new classes; some abilities might be a bit extreme or stretch some assumptions of the game, and the best way to find out if we’ve gone too far (or in the wrong direction) is for us to deliver these classes into your hands. We don’t expect to release any changes to these classes during the playtest itself, only in the final version of the book.
Yeah, that's what I remember. You've got more patience than myself to dig it up. ;)
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Attacking doesn't mean engaging in melee combat anymore than a summoner casting ranged attack spells does.My bad for using the term martial instead of melee, my point still stands.
the playtest and make up your own? I must have missed that section of the PDF. Have a quote or page number?
I mean if you want to, I not going to stop you but I'm not going to. That was the suggestion I was replying to: that I personally should use different rules because Mark mused about different ways to do it.
Where does it say not to? More accurately, where does it say after playtesting the rules as presented and finding them lacking to not Playtest other iterations to see what do work or what’s fun.
A Playtest where you’re not supposed to make suggestions on what might work better isn’t much of Playtest. It’s also rather sensible to Playtest those suggestions you might want to see implemented to see if they even work.
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My bad for using the term martial instead of melee, my point still stands.
I'm not sure how it stands: we where talking about fighters and being a fighter doesn't equate to melee. A fighter that stays at range can as easily heal someone with battle magic as a summoner that stays at range can. Even if we're talking melee, as long as there isn't an AoO, nothing is stopping the fighter from moving unless there is physically an enemy on every single space around them and if that is the case there are more issues that movement to use battle medicine.
Where does it say not to? More accurately, where does it say after playtesting the rules as presented and finding them lacking to not Playtest other iterations to see what do work or what’s fun.
Prove a negative? The onus is you to put forth proof of a theory, not for me to disprove it.
A Playtest where you’re not supposed to make suggestions on what might work better isn’t much of Playtest.
And I NEVER said any of that. Suggest away: just don't tell ME that I'm required to houserule the playtest.
It’s also rather sensible to Playtest those suggestions you might want to see implemented to see if they even work.
If that's what you want. Sure? Never said you couldn't. Why do you want ME to have to? As I said, this was about someone asking ME to use houserules, not about ME telling other not to.
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I'm not sure how it stands: we where talking aboutEidolons being in the middle of combat having advantage in that their Summonerers can heal them by using Battle Medicine on themselves over other martials in the same situation not being able to do so, stop moving goalposts.
Prove a negative? The onus is you to put forth proof of a theory, not for me to disprove it.You’re the one saying we’re not allowed to test things in a Playtest. It being a Playtest is all the justification I need.
And I NEVER said any of that. Suggest away: just don't tell ME that I'm required to houserule the playtest.I never said such a thing.
If that's what you want. Sure? Never said you couldn't. Why do you want ME to have to? As I said, this was about someone asking ME to use houserules, not about ME telling other not to.
No, someone made a suggestion. No one threatened or forced you to do anything.
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You’re the one saying we’re not allowed to test things in a Playtest. It being a Playtest is all the justification I need.
I'm not saying you can't try something out: I'm saying it's not part of the playtest.
I never said such a thing.
Then why reply to my post about it then? I was specifically responding to such a post. I don't really care what other people do with the playtest: that's between them and paizo.
No, someone made a suggestion. No one threatened or forced you to do anything.
KrispyXIV was telling me that playing without it was irrelevant and I disagreed. She was discounting my playtest experience because of it. I shouldn't be forced to playtest to have my experience thought of as relevant.
What might happen after the playtest isn't part of the playtest, simple as that. I'm not evaluating what it might look like but what it actually does now.
Which is weird, because the version that exists now is irrelevant long term.
Flaws that currently exist but won't in the final version are ephemeral at best.
It doesn't matter if the current versions action economy is slightly too limited (even though its by far the most open that currently exists) if we have reason to believe the final version will be even better.
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I'm not sure how it stands: we where talking aboutEidolons being in the middle of combat having advantage in that their Summonerers can heal them by using Battle Medicine on themselves over other martials in the same situation not being able to do so, stop moving goalposts.Prove a negative? The onus is you to put forth proof of a theory, not for me to disprove it.You’re the one saying we’re not allowed to test things in a Playtest. It being a Playtest is all the justification I need.And I NEVER said any of that. Suggest away: just don't tell ME that I'm required to houserule the playtest.I never said such a thing.If that's what you want. Sure? Never said you couldn't. Why do you want ME to have to? As I said, this was about someone asking ME to use houserules, not about ME telling other not to.No, someone made a suggestion. No one threatened or forced you to do anything.
so you are saying summoners get battlemedicine by default? where did i miss that? is that in angel?
if not, then it has no bearing on the class in my mind, its a fun trick, but if its mandatory to get mileage it just means the summoner is functioning with less skills and skill feats because they are taxed into needing it.
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so you are saying summoners get battlemedicine by default? where did i miss that? is that in angel?
if not, then it has no bearing on the class in my mind, its a fun trick, but if its mandatory to get mileage it just means the summoner is functioning with less skills and skill feats because they are taxed into needing it.
Strong synergies for the class are absolutely relevant.
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Strong synergies for the class are absolutely relevant.
so you are saying summoners get battlemedicine by default? where did i miss that? is that in angel?
if not, then it has no bearing on the class in my mind, its a fun trick, but if its mandatory to get mileage it just means the summoner is functioning with less skills and skill feats because they are taxed into needing it.
yes, but not as much as how the class functions *on its own*
thats the real balance point to be looking at, how it functions with just the summoner itself no dedication, no skill feats, thats what i ran, it was lacking on multiple fronts and i saw no reason to utilize it over another class. other classes i took feats and skill feats to create a concept, summoner i took them to make it function.
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Strong synergies for the class are absolutely relevant.
so you are saying summoners get battlemedicine by default? where did i miss that? is that in angel?
if not, then it has no bearing on the class in my mind, its a fun trick, but if its mandatory to get mileage it just means the summoner is functioning with less skills and skill feats because they are taxed into needing it.
The Investigator methodology is built into Battle Medicine so it's integral to it: Not so much for the summoner. It has no more synergy than any other class that doesn't have a built in benefit for the feat. The summoner doesn't get any more actions to use it that other classes, gets less free skill feats and skill boosts than some classes and doesn't have wis as a key stat... I just don't see a synergy: in fact it's pretty much at the bottom of synergies: Investigators, rogues, druids, clerics and maybe a Chirurgeon Alchemist.
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The summoner doesn't get any more actions to use it that other classes,
They literally get a 4th action via Act Together that no one else gets with which they can use it.
The have extreme synergy with any archetype or ability that is action hungry, simply because they get more actions than anyone else which can be whatever they want.
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The summoner doesn't get any more actions to use it that other classes,They literally get a 4th action via Act Together that no one else gets with which they can use it.
The have extreme synergy with any archetype or ability that is action hungry, simply because they get more actions than anyone else which can be whatever they want.
When you consider Tandem Move it can be five. However these are all single actions which is very limiting. Both the eidolon and the summoner need to move separately and that is a big cost.
To do single actions including move you can get 2 on the summoner and 3 on the eidolon
If you want to do a double action action you can get 3 actions on one and 1 action on the other.
If you want to do a triple action action then the other side is doing nothing.
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The summoner doesn't get any more actions to use it that other classes,They literally get a 4th action via Act Together that no one else gets with which they can use it.
The have extreme synergy with any archetype or ability that is action hungry, simply because they get more actions than anyone else which can be whatever they want.
When you consider Tandem Move it can be five. However these are all single actions which is very limiting. Both the eidolon and the summoner need to move separately and that is a big cost.
To do single actions including move you can get 2 on the summoner and 3 on the eidolon
If you want to do a double action action you can get 3 actions on one and 1 action on the other.
If you want to do a triple action action then the other side is doing nothing.
Sure. There's minor restrictions.
The key is, the bonus action isn't restricted to one action or one kind of action.
No one else gets extra actions like that which can be whatever action you like, so long as its the correct number of actions.
For the case in question, Battle Medicine, the single action aspect of it is actually incredibly fitting and synergizes with this economy very well.
You can Battle Medicine and still allow your Eidolon to take 3 actions on any given turn. If you have Doctor's Visitation, you can move, Battle Medicine, and still have 3 actions for your Eidolon.
There's a TON of unique synergy here that no one else gets.
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They literally get a 4th action via Act Together that no one else gets with which they can use it.
They don't: their pet gets at least 1 and they spent an action to get an extra action for a net of 3 actions. They NEVER get more actions to use battle medicine so, no synergy. A druid with a mature animal companion can ALSO have 3 actions while the animal companion attacks once and gets a full spread of spells. You can keep selling this huge synergy but I'm not buying.
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The key is, the bonus action isn't restricted to one action or one kind of action.
No one else gets extra actions like that which can be whatever action you like, so long as its the correct number of actions.
I really like the single actions the bard gets in the APG. A bard multiclass on a Phantom could get a lot of support out. Use your actions on Courageous Advance or Courageous Assault to get your allies into position or out of danger or let the Barbarian get an extra attack in as a reaction.
Or if the bard in your party takes Call and Response, the Summoner can effectively give the bard one of their actions every other round.
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Strong synergies for the class are absolutely relevant.
so you are saying summoners get battlemedicine by default? where did i miss that? is that in angel?
if not, then it has no bearing on the class in my mind, its a fun trick, but if its mandatory to get mileage it just means the summoner is functioning with less skills and skill feats because they are taxed into needing it.
Not to mention you don't play in a vacuum. One highlight from my playtest session was that in the middle of battle another player healed the Eidolon by walking safely up to the summoner 50 feet away from the big baddie and used Battle Medicine. It was spectacular.
Not to mention you don't play in a vacuum. One highlight from my playtest session was that in the middle of battle another player healed the Eidolon by walking safely up to the summoner 50 feet away from the big baddie and used Battle Medicine. It was spectacular.Strong synergies for the class are absolutely relevant.
so you are saying summoners get battlemedicine by default? where did i miss that? is that in angel?
if not, then it has no bearing on the class in my mind, its a fun trick, but if its mandatory to get mileage it just means the summoner is functioning with less skills and skill feats because they are taxed into needing it.
That's convenient.
Not spectacular.
And also literally the only combat oriented mentioning of a pro I've read on these forums, and it's not even necesarrily something the summoner does but gets done to him.
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Not to mention you don't play in a vacuum. One highlight from my playtest session was that in the middle of battle another player healed the Eidolon by walking safely up to the summoner 50 feet away from the big baddie and used Battle Medicine. It was spectacular.Strong synergies for the class are absolutely relevant.
so you are saying summoners get battlemedicine by default? where did i miss that? is that in angel?
if not, then it has no bearing on the class in my mind, its a fun trick, but if its mandatory to get mileage it just means the summoner is functioning with less skills and skill feats because they are taxed into needing it.
That's convenient.
Not spectacular.
And also literally the only combat oriented mentioning of a pro I've read on these forums, and it's not even necesarrily something the summoner does but gets done to him.
The main "pro" of the ability is that it limits the survivability of the Summoner + Eidolon to approximately the same range as One Player Character, instead of two.
The healing benefits are just a neat perk and gameplay interaction - The Point is to ensure that Summoners don't get more effective hitpoints than literally everyone else for zero resource cost.
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Not to mention you don't play in a vacuum. One highlight from my playtest session was that in the middle of battle another player healed the Eidolon by walking safely up to the summoner 50 feet away from the big baddie and used Battle Medicine. It was spectacular.Strong synergies for the class are absolutely relevant.
so you are saying summoners get battlemedicine by default? where did i miss that? is that in angel?
if not, then it has no bearing on the class in my mind, its a fun trick, but if its mandatory to get mileage it just means the summoner is functioning with less skills and skill feats because they are taxed into needing it.
That's convenient.
Not spectacular.
And also literally the only combat oriented mentioning of a pro I've read on these forums, and it's not even necesarrily something the summoner does but gets done to him.
The main "pro" of the ability is that it limits the survivability of the Summoner + Eidolon to approximately the same range as One Player Character, instead of two.
The healing benefits are just a neat perk and gameplay interaction - The Point is to ensure that Summoners don't get more effective hitpoints than literally everyone else for zero resource cost.
So you agree there has been no other combat oriented pros thus far
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So you agree there has been no other combat oriented pros thus farNot to mention you don't play in a vacuum. One highlight from my playtest session was that in the middle of battle another player healed the Eidolon by walking safely up to the summoner 50 feet away from the big baddie and used Battle Medicine. It was spectacular.Strong synergies for the class are absolutely relevant.
so you are saying summoners get battlemedicine by default? where did i miss that? is that in angel?
if not, then it has no bearing on the class in my mind, its a fun trick, but if its mandatory to get mileage it just means the summoner is functioning with less skills and skill feats because they are taxed into needing it.
That's convenient.
Not spectacular.
And also literally the only combat oriented mentioning of a pro I've read on these forums, and it's not even necesarrily something the summoner does but gets done to him.
The main "pro" of the ability is that it limits the survivability of the Summoner + Eidolon to approximately the same range as One Player Character, instead of two.
The healing benefits are just a neat perk and gameplay interaction - The Point is to ensure that Summoners don't get more effective hitpoints than literally everyone else for zero resource cost.
I truly hate questions like this. The 'I'm only going worry about one thing and ignore what has been said because it's unimportant' type of question. It doesn't add anything to the discussion.
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The healing benefits are just a neat perk and gameplay interaction - The Point is to ensure that Summoners don't get more effective hitpoints than literally everyone else for zero resource cost.
You have made this point many times. It has been refuted many times by the very simple example - Animal Companions.
It is just not correct.
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The healing benefits are just a neat perk and gameplay interaction - The Point is to ensure that Summoners don't get more effective hitpoints than literally everyone else for zero resource cost.You have made this point many times. It has been refuted many times by the very simple example - Animal Companions.
It is just not correct.
Animal Companions, who cost absolute class resources to obtain and keep relevant, and whose stats and capabilities are severely limited compared an Eidolons.
That comparison has been refuted multiple times... especially since its not an exclusive option. A Summoner is as capable as anyone else of taking an Animal Companion, making the "cost" for a seperate blob of hitpoints via Feats essentially universal.
Animal Companions or Familiars, with their independent hitpoints, cost either a class feat or a class feature that includes/ emulates a class feat. There are currently no "free" extra hitpoints.
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I truly hate questions like this. The 'I'm only going worry about one thing and ignore what has been said because it's unimportant' type of question. It doesn't add anything to the discussion.So you agree there has been no other combat oriented pros thus farNot to mention you don't play in a vacuum. One highlight from my playtest session was that in the middle of battle another player healed the Eidolon by walking safely up to the summoner 50 feet away from the big baddie and used Battle Medicine. It was spectacular.Strong synergies for the class are absolutely relevant.
so you are saying summoners get battlemedicine by default? where did i miss that? is that in angel?
if not, then it has no bearing on the class in my mind, its a fun trick, but if its mandatory to get mileage it just means the summoner is functioning with less skills and skill feats because they are taxed into needing it.
That's convenient.
Not spectacular.
And also literally the only combat oriented mentioning of a pro I've read on these forums, and it's not even necesarrily something the summoner does but gets done to him.
The main "pro" of the ability is that it limits the survivability of the Summoner + Eidolon to approximately the same range as One Player Character, instead of two.
The healing benefits are just a neat perk and gameplay interaction - The Point is to ensure that Summoners don't get more effective hitpoints than literally everyone else for zero resource cost.
You can hate whatever you want, but until solid examples beyond healing are represented for in combat. It's valid. I'm sorry if you don't like that.
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Animal Companions, who cost absolute class resources to obtain and keep relevant, and whose stats and capabilities are severely limited compared an Eidolons.That comparison has been refuted multiple times... especially since its not an exclusive option. A Summoner is as capable as anyone else of taking an Animal Companion, making the "cost" for a seperate blob of hitpoints via Feats essentially universal.
Animal Companions or Familiars, with their independent hitpoints, cost either a class feat or a class feature that includes/ emulates a class feat. There are currently no "free" extra hitpoints.
A Summoner doesn't have the full casting of a Druid or the martial progression of another class. They are paying for their Eidolon.
A summoner who takes a full animal companion would have to spend a lot of feats on it, and end up with a munted Eidolon. Not a lot different to a beast master. They would still have their weak class chasis.Your argument is just not consistent.
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Animal Companions, who cost absolute class resources to obtain and keep relevant, and whose stats and capabilities are severely limited compared an Eidolons.That comparison has been refuted multiple times... especially since its not an exclusive option. A Summoner is as capable as anyone else of taking an Animal Companion, making the "cost" for a seperate blob of hitpoints via Feats essentially universal.
Animal Companions or Familiars, with their independent hitpoints, cost either a class feat or a class feature that includes/ emulates a class feat. There are currently no "free" extra hitpoints.
A Summoner doesn't have the full casting of a Druid or the martial progression of another class. They are paying for their Eidolon.
A summoner who takes a full animal companion would have to spend a lot of feats on it, and end up with a munted Eidolon. Not a lot different to a beast master. They would still have their weak class chasis.Your argument is just not consistent.
I feel I've been extremely consistent.
As base combat functionality is baked into the core class profile, a Summoner who spent half their feats on an Animal Companion would not have a weaker Eidolon, so much as a less flexible Eidolon.
They would also only have 60-80% more effective HP than anyone else, instead of nearly an additional 150% approaching 200% they'd have if the Eidolon got its own hitpoints.
The design of the Summoner is clearly intended to keep the base capabilities in line with a single PC, with lower capabilities balanced by extreme flexibility (top level casting AND Martial Proficiency AND two bodies).
Theres no way were getting a legit caster and a seperate legit martial AND two characters worth of survivability in the core class chassis. Its fundamentally unbalanced.
As well, putting needed progression outside the core class progression violates PF2s core assumptions.
Shared HP is almost certainly going to be the best deal we get for having a potent Eidolon.
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Your argument is just not consistent.
I feel I've been extremely consistent.
As base combat functionality is baked into the core class profile, a Summoner who spent half their feats on an Animal Companion would not have a weaker Eidolon, so much as a less flexible Eidolon.
They would also only have 60-80% more effective HP than anyone else, instead of nearly an additional 150% approaching 200% they'd have if the Eidolon got its own hitpoints.
The design of the Summoner is clearly intended to keep the base capabilities in line with a single PC, with lower capabilities balanced by extreme flexibility (top level casting AND Martial Proficiency AND two bodies).
Theres no way were getting a legit caster and a seperate legit martial AND two characters worth of survivability in the core class chassis. Its fundamentally unbalanced.
As well, putting needed progression outside the core class progression violates PF2s core assumptions.
Shared HP is almost certainly going to be the best deal we...
No its not consistent. A character with an animal companion has that hit point advantage over other characters. Its not a problem, as it is factored in to the relative strength of the Animal Companion. The Animal Companion is good but its not that good. The cost of the extra hit points has been paid for. Its the same situation.
The cost of the Eidolon is factored into the core class of the Summoner you have paid with pitiful martial ability, and heavily restricted spells.
The cost has been paid. You are harping on about a totally non existent balance problem
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The cost of the Eidolon is factored into the core class of the Summoner you have paid with pitiful martial ability, and heavily restricted spells.
The cost has been paid. You are harping on about a totally non existent balance problem
Summoners getting an effective 16+2xCon hitpoints per level for free with top level spells and martial level proficiencies would absolutely be a balance problem.
It takes my already well functioning character and makes her strictly more durable in all cases than literally everyone else in the party, and she still fights almost as well as the martial characters and has almost the high level spellcasting of the Wizard.
It instantly makes me look like the guy who had to have two PCs to everyone elses one.
That doesn't occur with Animal Companions, because theyre significantly worse than a Player character and inherently limited in their actions and cost half my class feats.
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You can hate whatever you want, but until solid examples beyond healing are represented for in combat. It's valid. I'm sorry if you don't like that.I truly hate questions like this. The 'I'm only going worry about one thing and ignore what has been said because it's unimportant' type of question. It doesn't add anything to the discussion.So you agree there has been no other combat oriented pros thus farNot to mention you don't play in a vacuum. One highlight from my playtest session was that in the middle of battle another player healed the Eidolon by walking safely up to the summoner 50 feet away from the big baddie and used Battle Medicine. It was spectacular.Strong synergies for the class are absolutely relevant.
so you are saying summoners get battlemedicine by default? where did i miss that? is that in angel?
if not, then it has no bearing on the class in my mind, its a fun trick, but if its mandatory to get mileage it just means the summoner is functioning with less skills and skill feats because they are taxed into needing it.
That's convenient.
Not spectacular.
And also literally the only combat oriented mentioning of a pro I've read on these forums, and it's not even necesarrily something the summoner does but gets done to him.
The main "pro" of the ability is that it limits the survivability of the Summoner + Eidolon to approximately the same range as One Player Character, instead of two.
The healing benefits are just a neat perk and gameplay interaction - The Point is to ensure that Summoners don't get more effective hitpoints than literally everyone else for zero resource cost.
Nope, hated the question and how it was put not what it has to deal with. There a better and politer ways of debating things. Fishing for agreements from a comment that doesn't actively disagree is just a personal pet peeve.
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The cost of the Eidolon is factored into the core class of the Summoner you have paid with pitiful martial ability, and heavily restricted spells.
The cost has been paid. You are harping on about a totally non existent balance problem
Summoners getting an effective 16+2xCon hitpoints per level for free with top level spells and martial level proficiencies would absolutely be a balance problem.
It takes my already well functioning character and makes her strictly more durable in all cases than literally everyone else in the party, and she still fights almost as well as the martial characters and has almost the high level spellcasting of the Wizard.
It instantly makes me look like the guy who had to have two PCs to everyone elses one.
That doesn't occur with Animal Companions, because theyre significantly worse than a Player character and inherently limited in their actions and cost half my class feats.
It is not. You are over selling it. The martial proficiencies are a bit off, the spell casting proficiencies are not quite there either.
Your double CON point, ignores the fact that Animal Companions have CON that increases too.Yes Summoners are different, but you are not properly representing them in your argument.
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Just as an aside, a Summoner can get an Animal Companion with the same exact investments any other class would make, thanks to Beastmaster Dedication.
Which is to say, a Beastmaster Summoner can easily have an effective 6 actions, and possibly as many as 7 without much effort: Act Together (2x), Tandem Move (2x) Animal Companion independent, Spare Action, quickened action from Haste.
Is that viable? I guess I'll find out, as that is a build one of my players wants to explore. One thing I've noted is that in narrow, close quarters combat the Summoner is effectively a moving wall of flesh. It is hard to get around two Large bodies (plus we have another animal companion as well), even if the Summoner is mounted. The backline is really hard to approach, and even ranged attacks tend to have lesser cover.
This is a Primal Summoner, and they will pretty much be fine using Heal for their spells as it is likely to hit a ton of party members and companions.
I built a Beastmaster Summoner for my Grim Symphony run. The highlight of the session and play on the game was flanking a target by myself from 50' away. Eidolon Haste Stride, Act Together Eidolon Stride, Act Together Command an Animal, Companion Cat Pounce (Stride into Flank/Strike), Companion Strike, Eidolon Draconic Frenzy for 5 attacks on an enemy neither of the flankers started anywhere near to.
Funnest turn I've had in months.
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Nope, hated the question and how it was put not what it has to deal with. There a better and politer ways of debating things....You can hate whatever you want, but until solid examples beyond healing are represented for in combat. It's valid. I'm sorry if you don't like that.I truly hate questions like this. The 'I'm only going worry about one thing and ignore what has been said because it's unimportant' type of question. It doesn't add anything to the discussion.So you agree there has been no other combat oriented pros thus farNot to mention you don't play in a vacuum. One highlight from my playtest session was that in the middle of battle another player healed the Eidolon by walking safely up to the summoner 50 feet away from the big baddie and used Battle Medicine. It was spectacular.Strong synergies for the class are absolutely relevant.
so you are saying summoners get battlemedicine by default? where did i miss that? is that in angel?
if not, then it has no bearing on the class in my mind, its a fun trick, but if its mandatory to get mileage it just means the summoner is functioning with less skills and skill feats because they are taxed into needing it.
That's convenient.
Not spectacular.
And also literally the only combat oriented mentioning of a pro I've read on these forums, and it's not even necesarrily something the summoner does but gets done to him.
The main "pro" of the ability is that it limits the survivability of the Summoner + Eidolon to approximately the same range as One Player Character, instead of two.
The healing benefits are just a neat perk and gameplay interaction - The Point is to ensure that Summoners don't get more effective hitpoints than literally everyone else for zero resource cost.
And I still don't care and stand by my replies. Can we move on?
I've still yet to see, figure out, or hear about any merit to a core summoner (no dedications) in combat.
That is notable and should be a concern.
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It is not. You are over selling it. The martial proficiencies are a bit off, the spell casting proficiencies are not quite there either.
Your double CON point, ignores the fact that Animal Companions have CON that increases too.Yes Summoners are different, but you are not properly representing them in your argument.
I'm seriously not sure how I'm not properly representing them.
The gap between a summoner and a specialist in their roles is simply not that big.
Certainly not big enough to warrant them getting double the hitpoints of another character for no expenditure of resources.
Especially since I've yet to see consistent evidence they need enhanced survivability over what they already have, rather than people preferring it because either "its how it used to be" or hypothetical "two bodies means more incoming damage".
I need to play more actual sessions, but neither the session I did play nor the simulations I've run have borne out the idea that Summoners currently have a survival problem.
What balance reason is there? Animal companions have 10 HP while the casters using them have 6 HP.
A Barbarian with an animal companion is getting 10 + 12 HP.
There is no balance problem with the Summoner having 6 HP, while the Eidolon gets 10 HP. Heck the Eidolon could get 8 HP and it would still be fine.
The balance is the eidolon can benefit from armor/weapon runes/upgrades of the summoner that keeps their defenses in general a good bit higher than even a totally dex maxed out focused animal companion while also hitting much harder. I think a more likely change is they just bake in reinforce eidolon as a feat option early. Either have it just become innate or something that has a 1 minute duration so the summoner who is worried about the defense of his pet does not have to just keep spam casting it for the whole fight.
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The summoner doesn't get any more actions to use it that other classes,They literally get a 4th action via Act Together that no one else gets with which they can use it.
The have extreme synergy with any archetype or ability that is action hungry, simply because they get more actions than anyone else which can be whatever they want.
Well technically up to five actions. Move together 2 moves one for you and one for pet, act together one action for you one for pet, then either you or pet can use last action.
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Well technically up to five actions. Move together 2 moves one for you and one for pet, act together one action for you one for pet, then either you or pet can use last action.The summoner doesn't get any more actions to use it that other classes,They literally get a 4th action via Act Together that no one else gets with which they can use it.
The have extreme synergy with any archetype or ability that is action hungry, simply because they get more actions than anyone else which can be whatever they want.
IF you take an extra feat. Now if you do, you have FIVE INDIVIDUAL actions so no multi-action activities. But none of that matters when the base ability we're talking about is one action to use: ANY character can use a single action to Doctor's Visitation to move and Battle Medicine.
Now if we look at things critically, how many rounds do both have to move? In practice, most rounds you don't use 5 actions [one of you isn't moving]. So that's down to 4. Then after your Boost it's 3 actions and if you Reinforce, you're down to 2... TO me, 2 actions SEEMS like less actions free to use than a normal persons actions and equal to an animal companion user.
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Now if we look at things critically, how many rounds do both have to move? In practice, most rounds you don't use 5 actions [one of you isn't moving]. So that's down to 4. Then after your Boost it's 3 actions and if you Reinforce, you're down to 2... TO me, 2 actions SEEMS like less actions free to use than a normal persons actions and equal to an animal companion user.
Is it reasonably safe to summarize this as you feel that the perceived need to cast Boost/Reinforce Eidolon every time is counteracting any potential action economy benefits gained by the class?
That's what I'm getting here, but I want to be sure I'm not misunderstanding.
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Now if we look at things critically, how many rounds do both have to move? In practice, most rounds you don't use 5 actions [one of you isn't moving]. So that's down to 4. Then after your Boost it's 3 actions and if you Reinforce, you're down to 2... TO me, 2 actions SEEMS like less actions free to use than a normal persons actions and equal to an animal companion user.Is it reasonably safe to summarize this as you feel that the perceived need to cast Boost/Reinforce Eidolon every time is counteracting any potential action economy benefits gained by the class?
That's what I'm getting here, but I want to be sure I'm not misunderstanding.
that is exactly how i feel
i know you can argue its a choice to make, but it doesnt feel like a choice.
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Is it reasonably safe to summarize this as you feel that the perceived need to cast Boost/Reinforce Eidolon every time is counteracting any potential action economy benefits gained by the class?
That's what I'm getting here, but I want to be sure I'm not misunderstanding.
*nods* Yep. Right now, Boost is too good not to use [it has a noticeable drop in damage if you don't]. Much the same way, Reinforce is even better [helping shore up it's low AC and will saves and the resistance if just gravy on top]. It's kind of like how a bard is PRETTY much going to be using composition cantrip every single round but worse: the summoner had TWO of them AND they can stack so it's like Harmonize for the bard but without the extra action cost. It sure feels like a must to do.
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Now if we look at things critically, how many rounds do both have to move? In practice, most rounds you don't use 5 actions [one of you isn't moving]. So that's down to 4. Then after your Boost it's 3 actions and if you Reinforce, you're down to 2... TO me, 2 actions SEEMS like less actions free to use than a normal persons actions and equal to an animal companion user.Is it reasonably safe to summarize this as you feel that the perceived need to cast Boost/Reinforce Eidolon every time is counteracting any potential action economy benefits gained by the class?
That's what I'm getting here, but I want to be sure I'm not misunderstanding.
that is exactly how i feel
i know you can argue its a choice to make, but it doesnt feel like a choice.
The conclusion it leads me to draw is that different priorities are leading to massively different experiences.
I dont prioritize damage comparisons or damage dealing, and am not particularly focused on damage dealing. That means that on my priority list Boost Eidolon is pretty low... like, I'm going to be making two Strikes and don't have anything else in particular that I'd like to do with that action.
That means that for me, Summoner really is a 4 action superior action economy class, and I'm having a great time with it.
But for you, and presumably Graystone, your priorities mean that you feel forced into boosting to be viable. Its not just that its not a 4 action class to you, its like you're being forced to steal that 4th action from yourself - you kindof had it, but not really.
Its not really a 4 action class to you.
That definitely makes me inclined to put something about at least improving the action economy impact of boost/ reinforce on my survey.