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That is why you give Eidolons evolutions points like they are supposed to have instead of artificially limiting them via feats.You do remember that many 1e evolutions had minimum levels on them anyways, right? They'd just put the exact same level as the minimum on it, you wouldn't get it any sooner.
I think the vision here is that 1 minute flight would cost 2 "points" at a lower level, and 4 "points" for permanent flight at a higher level or something to that effect.
Either way, it's inferior (mechanically, not conceptually) to the current setup where 1 minute flight costs 2 actions and a focus point and zero permanent resources, and permanent flight costs a single feat at the level it becomes available.
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7th or 8th sounds about right to me.
Maybe have a glide option that allows true flight for a short period of time at lower levels, then true unlimited flight at higher levels?
I just dont see it. They've drawn invisible lines on Flight in this edition, with it becoming initially (generally) available at 7-9 (Eidolons gain guaranteed access at 9 via evolution surge) and perma flight becoming available after level 15.
I can't imagine a good game and balance reason to make an exception for Eidolons.
If they were to get access to anything sooner than this, I could see maybe a reduction in fall damage prior to the current schedule for Flight (ie, gliding).
But you rapidly run into issues with overcrowding low levels with a variety of really good options.
I don't see the labels on invisible lines. Thus, I am trying to deduce the labels.
In PF2 aasimer player characters can gain permanent flight at 17th level. In contrast, dragons have permanent flight at all their levels, which start at 6th level with a young white dragon or at 3rd level if we count a River Drake as a dragon. For low-level flying beasts we have the Cockatrice, Giant Eagle, and Pegasus at 3rd level. For flying angelic beings, we have Cassisian Angel, Lantern Archon, and Lyrakien Azata at 1st level. For spirits, we have Binumir at 3rd level and Ghost Commoner at 4th level and Poltergeist and Muse Phantom at 5th level, that all fly. They are also incorporeal, which would be awkward for an eidolon.
PCs can gain flying animal companion and familiars at 1st level. An eidolon is more powerful than those, and permanent flying would make it even more powerful; however, 17th level seems way too long a wait for something like a dragon eidolon that had probably started with useless wings from 1st level. Eidolons are not player characters with a natural tendency toward humanoid restrictions. They are shaped like dragons, beasts, angels, and spirits. Dragons fly. Angels fly. Most spirits fly. A few beasts fly. In addition, dragons and angels have wings so they look like they should fly. Maybe the invisible line for permanent flight on dragon and angel eidolons should be a lot lower than 17th level, because they are based on creatures that fly. As it is, the summoner playtest suggests 16th level.
The invisible line on human all-day flight in PF1 is 9th level with the Overland Flight spell. That costs one spell a day, so it is not permanent flight. Nevertheless, spending one spell a day is as much a resource cost as spending a class feat, and in PF2 the summoner has to spend a class feat for permanent flying on his or her eidolon. Does Paizo really view all-day flight as such a problem that they wanted to restrict it in PF2 to 7 levels later than in PF1?
Once a PF1 wizard reaches 12th level and gains the spell slots to cast Overland Flight on the entire party, a campaign has the potential for an all-flying party. That is still well below 16th level. I have been reading the Paizo forums for 9 years, and I do not remember complaints about flying parties. I remember some complaints about 5th-level PF1 wizards using Fly as a defense, but the more experienced GMs responded by suggesting more enemies with archery.
PCs can gain flying animal companion and familiars at 1st level.
Note that Mark specifically discussed these exceptions when he discussed why perma-flight is a high level ability in the main Summoner playtest thread.
Animal Companions and Familiars, due to their limitations in capabilities, are not capable of engaging in the sort of tactics that they are explicitly trying to prevent.
Eidolons lack such restrictions, and therefore are under the same limitations as player characters, implicitly.
Also, you make several references to PF1 abilities like Overland Flight... none of which apply in 2E. I wouldn't expect such thresholds to retain much, if any, relevance.
Once a PF1 wizard reaches 12th level and gains the spell slots to cast Overland Flight on the entire party, a campaign has the potential for an all-flying party.
Just for the reference there are many ways to get perma flight (or near) in pf1e, but overland flight is personal targeting. Applying it to party members requires jumping through hoops that isn't worth the effort over other methods imo.
Eidolons despite their costumes are 100% PCs, and as others said, the issue with perma flight is rarely just a combat one.
As a GM I would consider houserules for a PC who really wants a flying dragon. But it would be a "judged based on the player" kinda thing. Having perma flight on a summon kinda gives the summoner perma flight the second they choose the synthesis feat.
As for creatures getting flight, yeah they aren't PCs, entirely different rules (true even in pf1e).
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Alternatively, you can just rely on Evolution Surge to address your Winged eidolons limited flight needs until level 16.
At 5th level, your Eidolon can traverse and overcome vertical obstacles with ease by being granted a temporary climb speed, allowing them to ascend and descend as if flying.
At 9th level, your Eidolon can fly whenever the situation calls for it for a minute - every encounter.
At 16th level, your Eidolon can fly permanently.
The system works fine. It just requires you to be narratively flexible enough to work with it instead of against it.
Literally every buff evolution surge is capable of granting is also an Evolution feat that the eidolon can take. Most can be taken at or around the level that evolution surge grants the option--many can be taken at lower level. Why the exception for flight?
There should be a lower level flight option in the form of an evolution feat (or perhaps part of the angelic/draconic frame). Angelic and draconic eidolons should have working wings. It doesn't have to be good or long-lasting flight, but it does need to work.
Needing to cast a spell to give a winged creature flight isn't going to jive with pretty much anyone that wants a winged creature in the first place. If we wanted fly via spells, we wouldn't even need evolution surge to do that; we'd just cast fly.
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Alternatively, you can just rely on Evolution Surge to address your Winged eidolons limited flight needs until level 16.
At 5th level, your Eidolon can traverse and overcome vertical obstacles with ease by being granted a temporary climb speed, allowing them to ascend and descend as if flying.
At 9th level, your Eidolon can fly whenever the situation calls for it for a minute - every encounter.
At 16th level, your Eidolon can fly permanently.
The system works fine. It just requires you to be narratively flexible enough to work with it instead of against it.
Literally every buff Evolution Surge is capable of granting is also an evolution feat that the eidolon can take. Most can be taken at around the level that Evolution Surge grants the option--or lower. Why the exception for flight?
There should be a lower level flight option. Angelic and draconic eidolons should have working wings. It doesn't have to be good or long-lasting flight, but it does need to work.
Who knows? Maybe its entirely a playtest thing and there IS a lower level option for Flight. I kindof hope not, because it would be redundant with the 16th level feat, but maybe there is.
I brought this up with some of my players, and the Champions first input was that as is, it felt kindof bad that he had to spend an 18th level feat for perma-flight but that an Eidolon got it for cheaper, especially when the Eidolon had all sorts of advantages like potentially being able to carry the whole party.
A 16th level feat for perma flight via wings is almost certainly the correct cost for the ability.
Theres not really a pressing need for a lower level redundant feat, as you can solve for flight via focus spell.
I personally doubt this changes, based on all the evidence and comparisons and lack of a real restriction on lower level eidolons flying, but who knows.
A proper fly spell is no substitute as its not available to all Summoners, unlike Evolution Surge which is given for free at level 1 and seems intended to address exactly the situation of Eidolons witb situationally useful abilities that don't need to cost a feat.
Alternatively, you can just rely on Evolution Surge to address your Winged eidolons limited flight needs until level 16.
At 5th level, your Eidolon can traverse and overcome vertical obstacles with ease by being granted a temporary climb speed, allowing them to ascend and descend as if flying.
At 9th level, your Eidolon can fly whenever the situation calls for it for a minute - every encounter.
At 16th level, your Eidolon can fly permanently.
The system works fine. It just requires you to be narratively flexible enough to work with it instead of against it.
Literally every buff evolution surge is capable of granting is also an Evolution feat that the eidolon can take. Most can be taken at or around the level that evolution surge grants the option--many can be taken at lower level. Why the exception for flight?
There should be a lower level flight option in the form of an evolution feat (or perhaps part of the angelic/draconic frame). Angelic and draconic eidolons should have working wings. It doesn't have to be good or long-lasting flight, but it does need to work.
Needing to cast a spell to give a winged creature flight isn't going to jive with pretty much anyone that wants a winged creature in the first place. If we wanted fly via spells, we wouldn't even need evolution surge to do that; we'd just cast fly.
Animal Companions and Familiars can fly at LVL 1 because they very specifically can't carry you. Between sharing your hit points, actions and MAP, the eidolon isn't a pet, it's you in two different bodies. Nobody gets temporary flight on their own body before 7th (when you can cast fly) and nobody gets it as a focus spell before 8th (that I know of). That's why the exception for flight.
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but only having half your body fly is much worse then having all of it fly no? just have it not be able to carry you while flying.
The Eidolon itself can engage in the sort of Kiting tactics allowed by Perma-flight that the designers want to prevent.
Its almost certainly going to be subject to the same restrictions as player characters for these abilities.
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That is why you give Eidolons evolutions points like they are supposed to have instead of artificially limiting them via feats.
Even if we had evolution points Flight would still have a level 16ish or so prerequisite on it.
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And honestly, if a summoner gets a huge eidolon that could carry the whole party would that be so bad? At least then they'd be able to do something that nobody else already does, and does better.
EDIT: Scratch that. Wind walk is a thing. Summoner wouldn't even be able to do it better. Maybe a little sooner though?
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And honestly, if a summoner gets a huge eidolon that could carry the whole party would that be so bad? At least then they'd be able to do something that nobody else already does, and does better.
EDIT: Scratch that. Wind walk is a thing. Summoner wouldn't even be able to do it better. Maybe a little sooner though?
Its not a bad thing... at 16th level.
Its a straight improvement on Wind Walk, 1 level later by my count since Wind Walk becomes available at 15th. Its an improvement as it doesnt end on combat beginning, which Wind Walk does.
Missed that provision in wind walk.
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Frankly, Mathmuse pointing out you can have Phantom Steed for 8 hour flight at 11th level has convinced me that the level on this should be dropped to 12th.
Lower than that is probably overly powerful.
Uh, you mean the Phantom Steed that has AC 20, 10 hitpoints and no "gently falls to the ground" clause for when anything at that level shoots it out from under you in mid air?
I dont consider that to be even roughly equivalent. Its a combat liability to the extreme. A Death trap depending on your altitude.
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Frankly, Mathmuse pointing out you can have Phantom Steed for 8 hour flight at 11th level has convinced me that the level on this should be dropped to 12th.
Lower than that is probably overly powerful.
That takes 10 minutes to cast, your burning a 6 LVL spell slot for and can't use in combat (well you technically can, it's just made outta gossamer thin paper, and fall damage sucks.)
Edit: Ninja'd
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Uh, you mean the Phantom Steed that has AC 20, 10 hitpoints and no "gently falls to the ground" clause for when anything at that level shoots it out from under you in mid air?
I dont consider that to be even roughly equivalent. Its a combat liability to the extreme. A Death trap depending on your altitude.
It also has a speed of 80, which is vastly higher than almost any Eidolon, but fair enough.
I do think 12th would be sufficient to prevent most of the problems proposed even so, though. By that level, most creatures have ways to deal with ranged attacking flyers and the like, just as most do at 16th or higher.
Another option would be to allow it to fly outside of combat at 12th, but require Evolution Surge for in-combat flying until 16th. Justifying that might be tricky, but seems like it might be worth it.
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Uh, you mean the Phantom Steed that has AC 20, 10 hitpoints and no "gently falls to the ground" clause for when anything at that level shoots it out from under you in mid air?
I dont consider that to be even roughly equivalent. Its a combat liability to the extreme. A Death trap depending on your altitude.
It also has a speed of 80, which is vastly higher than almost any Eidolon, but fair enough.
I do think 12th would be sufficient to prevent most of the problems proposed even so, though. By that level, most creatures have ways to deal with ranged attacking flyers and the like, just as most do at 16th or higher.
Another option would be to allow it to fly outside of combat at 12th, but require Evolution Surge for in-combat flying until 16th. Justifying that might be tricky, but seems like it might be worth it.
What problem are we trying to solve by making this available earlier though? Just the mental desire for something with wings to be able to fly without restriction?
The Eidolon can fly at 9th level, with no feat needed.
Are we sure that moving this feat or adding a new feat - and adding restrictions to it to justify moving it - is actually solving a real issue here?
I have a hard time not seeing this as a matter of perspective - it really does seem to me like the "intended" implementation is that flying Eidolons do so via Focus Spell prior to 16th. And that appears to allow for the in combat applications of Flying for Eidolons right there, with no feat tax for any players at all who don't need their Eidolon to fly all the time.
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For some people it feels wrong for something with wings to be unable to fly. It why I hate ostrichs.Uh, you mean the Phantom Steed that has AC 20, 10 hitpoints and no "gently falls to the ground" clause for when anything at that level shoots it out from under you in mid air?
I dont consider that to be even roughly equivalent. Its a combat liability to the extreme. A Death trap depending on your altitude.
It also has a speed of 80, which is vastly higher than almost any Eidolon, but fair enough.
I do think 12th would be sufficient to prevent most of the problems proposed even so, though. By that level, most creatures have ways to deal with ranged attacking flyers and the like, just as most do at 16th or higher.
Another option would be to allow it to fly outside of combat at 12th, but require Evolution Surge for in-combat flying until 16th. Justifying that might be tricky, but seems like it might be worth it.
What problem are we trying to solve by making this available earlier though? Just the mental desire for something with wings to be able to fly without restriction?
The Eidolon can fly at 9th level, with no feat needed.
Are we sure that moving this feat or adding a new feat - and adding restrictions to it to justify moving it - is actually solving a real issue here?
I have a hard time not seeing this as a matter of perspective - it really does seem to me like the "intended" implementation is that flying Eidolons do so via Focus Spell prior to 16th. And that appears to allow for the in combat applications of Flying for Eidolons right there, with no feat tax for any players at all who don't need their Eidolon to fly all the time.
For me, having my Eidolon be "complete" at level 1 is worth the wings being cosmetic until its reasonable for them to be functional.
9th level is the same level my tieflings wings become functional, and 16th level is a single level before my tieflings wings become permanent.
I dont think those similarities are coincidence.
And I think the current implementation, where an eidolon can fly in every encounter for a focus point once I hit 9, is superior to a feat that grants fixed limited flight by a huge margin.
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I've had plenty of GMs who follow rules as written. If the book says it evolves wings at level 16 then that is when it has wings no earlier. If this power says it works like X than that is the sum total of all it can do. Cosmetic choices limited to skin, eye, and hair color (as an anime fan I've had character colors be denied) maybe.
For me, having my Eidolon be "complete" at level 1 is worth the wings being cosmetic until its reasonable for them to be functional.9th level is the same level my tieflings wings become functional, and 16th...
Luckily for me, the Rules as Written are 100% absolutely clear that you describe your Eidolon at level 1, and it doesn't change later.
So cosmetic Wings are RAW.
What? Unless you're talking about ranged penalties, that's clearly a house rule (and a bad one at that) and should have no bearing on this discussion.There's often not a lot of cover for flying creatures, leaving them heavily exposed to ranged attacks.In my experience most GMs will apply a range penalty to anyone shooting up into the air. Perhaps not for spells, but certainly for bows.
No I don't play with this rule. But it is a reflection of real world physics and is a real problem. So on that basis, its not unreasonable or bad. Some sort of slightly reduced range for firing up at a high angle, or increased range for firing down. Maybe 10%.
I just don't see it as necessary.
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When you choose your eidolon, you also determine their appearance and general form within the parameters for that particular type of eidolon. Once you establish your eidolon’s type and general appearance, these features can’t later be changed.
where as winged evolution says Your eidolon GROWS wings, allowing them to fly. Your eidolon gains a fly Speed equal to their Speed. thus going from a wingless state to a winged state hence changing a general feature. (if a contradiction is present the later text usually applies.)
Thus winged evolution should be
Flying evolution
Your eidolon gains a fly Speed equal to their Speed.I like the idea of player choice wile not in the playtest I want to make kitsune summoner with a construct eidolon that looks like a mecha.
personally I'd like to see it lower level and scaling.
I agree with the flying evolution change. Separating the mechanics from the flavour text would be nice. Having a phantom that can fly with a ghostly trail instead of wings as an example.
You can make winged flight a lower level evolution and make the higher level evolution magical flight.
Or you can let players make the distinction between how they fly, since it doesn't have a mechanical effect anymore.
You can make winged flight a lower level evolution and make the higher level evolution magical flight.
What mechanical difference would that make?
(Aside from making you drop outta the sky when you hit an anti-magic field.)
Edit: Need to learn to type faster.
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So why are you complaining about me adding a low level option to allow flight?
Because there's no point to a lower level Feat that adds Flight, because it wouldn't come until 8 or 10 and it would make Evolution Surge redundant - or be redundant with Evolution Surge.
There's more or less no way we'd get it before then, because 7 is the earliest Flight is available.
It'd still be limited/temporary Flight at that point.
A Feat for lower level flight may mean removing it from Evolution Surge, meaning that instead of getting Flight for free, I'd have to spend a Feat on it if it was important to my Eidolon.
There's more or less no chance we'd come out 'ahead' on this. We'd have an unnecessary Feat, OR you'd be nerfing every Eidolon that benefits from flying every single encounter from level 9 on with a Focus point.
Its nothing but losing relative the current state of affairs.
Evolution surge should not be the main ability of the Summoner. Its supposed to be something to help you when you meat something that is difficult for your eidolon. Not be the main way to get evolutions.
In any case Evolution surge should just work like the PF1 version and grant you a number of free evolutions for 1 minute.
Not to mention that there are already a lot of low level mobility feats and Evolution surge gives those exact evolutions. Flight should not be the exception.
Having played with it just a bit now, I've gotta completely disagree. Evolution Surge is exciting. I want more of it.
Its the thing that says - "That obstacle? That one in my way? Neutralized."
Its great.
Flight is an exception because flight is always an exception this edition. The earliest anyone gets temporary flight is 7th. The earliest anyone gets perma-flight is 17. As it stands the eidolon already is getting perma-flight 1 level earlier than anyone else. I could definitely see evolution surge's flight getting dropped to 4th level; so you can get it one level earlier than stormwind flight; seventh(because you can only use it on the eidolon), but there's no way temporary and perma-flight are going to be allowed at levels earlier then these.
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Flight is an exception because flight is always an exception this edition. The earliest anyone gets temporary flight is 7th. The earliest anyone gets perma-flight is 17. As it stands the eidolon already is getting perma-flight 1 level earlier than anyone else. I could definitely see evolution surge's flight getting dropped to 4th level; so you can get it one level earlier than stormwind flight; seventh(because you can only use it on the eidolon), but there's no way temporary and perma-flight are going to be allowed at levels earlier then these.
My concern with Flight on Heightened (4th) Evolution Surge is that at that point, E.Surge is kindof superior to 4th level Fly in all cases... and its renewable.
I'd bet a dollar that at 7th, game designers may want the Fresh New Combat Trick that is Fly generally tied to an expendable resource and not to one that comes back in ten minutes.
That sort of renewable combat trick feels better "one tier later" imo.
Flight is an exception because flight is always an exception this edition. The earliest anyone gets temporary flight is 7th. The earliest anyone gets perma-flight is 17. As it stands the eidolon already is getting perma-flight 1 level earlier than anyone else. I could definitely see evolution surge's flight getting dropped to 4th level; so you can get it one level earlier than stormwind flight; seventh(because you can only use it on the eidolon), but there's no way temporary and perma-flight are going to be allowed at levels earlier then these.My concern with Flight on Heightened (4th) Evolution Surge is that at that point, E.Surge is kindof superior to 4th level Fly in all cases... and its renewable.
I'd bet a dollar that at 7th, game designers may want the Fresh New Combat Trick that is Fly generally tied to an expendable resource and not to one that comes back in ten minutes.
That sort of renewable combat trick feels better "one tier later imo.
I agree.
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I don't think anyone was arguing it would make it more customizable...
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A flight evolution can still be limited to use resources and be a lower level.
You hamstring it to only be used with evolution surge doesn't help make the eidolon more customizable.
How does making the option to Fly cost zero permanent resources reduce customization?
By definition, it means you have more resources for customization.
Objectively more, not less.
This isn't even really my concern here, but the idea that it reduces customization is demonstrably untrue.
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You are making it less customizable because Evolution Surge is not customization. Its a tool supposed to help you get evolutions you dont have. Not be the source of evolutions.
You are treating Evolutions Surge as the core ability of the Summoner and that is not how its supposed to work.
Says you.
My position is supported by virtue of the fact that Evolution Surge is factually the core ability of the Summoner currently. Its granted to every single Summoner as their initial Focus Spell.
Its role in 1E is irrelevant now. To me, it feels like it now exists to enable all of the nice ribbon abilities your Eidolon doesn't need every encounter, and therefore are not worth spending permanent resources on.
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Evolution Surge should not be the core ability.
The Eidolon or Summon spells should be the core ability.
Perhaps Evolution Surge is a core part of the Eidolon, making it a core ability?
I get you don't like it - but its different now, and saying it 'should' be one way because thats how it used to be isn't valid.
Things change. Change is good.
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Evolution Surge should not be the core ability.
The Eidolon or Summon spells should be the core ability.
Yeah, Evolution Surge is a nice trick but it's not what I'd think of as a core ability: It sounds more like a Mutagenist core ability.
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I don't think it'll ever feel right if a core feature of Summoner isn't summoning...