Loremaster is an archetype that grants a Bardic Knowledge-equivalent skill that lets you roll on any Recall Knowledge. AND, because of how Summoner works, your Eidolon also gets your training in Loremaster Lore.
Sure... And now much Int bonus do the two of them have between them? If it's more than 1 or 2, how many hp or saves do they have? So 2 crappy rolls with a possible reroll doesn't seem like it's touching a max roll with a reroll...
And to "roll a second check after failing" for the Summoner, multiple rolls also bring the chance for crit fails for wrong info and they are more likely to make a non-1 crit fail than those with higher bonuses. I'm not seeing this as super good. At best, an aid[if allowed]+roll might bet close but takes 1 or more actions to do so... not super awesome IMO.
To me the summoner is a great user of bard dedication. The extra action they get is great for casting a composition cantrip, and I don't think anything can compete with that. Casters can't take advantage of the boost, martials don't have the actions or feats to spare often. They can also switch off being a mediocre martial and mediocre spell caster as situation requires.
Also they are very powerful when an enemy is next to the eidolon so they can get a full power attack, cast a spell, and inspire courage.
I hope they get worse at taking bard dedication, but better without it.
To me the summoner is a great user of bard dedication. The extra action they get is great for casting a composition cantrip, and I don't think anything can compete with that. Casters can't take advantage of the boost, martials don't have the actions or feats to spare often. They can also switch off being a mediocre martial and mediocre spell caster as situation requires.
Also they are very powerful when an enemy is next to the eidolon so they can get a full power attack, cast a spell, and inspire courage.
I hope they get worse at taking bard dedication, but better without it.
what extra action? are you not boosting your eidolon?
what extra action? are you not boosting your eidolon?To me the summoner is a great user of bard dedication. The extra action they get is great for casting a composition cantrip, and I don't think anything can compete with that. Casters can't take advantage of the boost, martials don't have the actions or feats to spare often. They can also switch off being a mediocre martial and mediocre spell caster as situation requires.
Also they are very powerful when an enemy is next to the eidolon so they can get a full power attack, cast a spell, and inspire courage.
I hope they get worse at taking bard dedication, but better without it.
Inspire Courage is probably superior to Boost Eidolon - Accuracy is King after all.
Inspire Courage is probably superior to Boost Eidolon - Accuracy is King after all.what extra action? are you not boosting your eidolon?To me the summoner is a great user of bard dedication. The extra action they get is great for casting a composition cantrip, and I don't think anything can compete with that. Casters can't take advantage of the boost, martials don't have the actions or feats to spare often. They can also switch off being a mediocre martial and mediocre spell caster as situation requires.
Also they are very powerful when an enemy is next to the eidolon so they can get a full power attack, cast a spell, and inspire courage.
I hope they get worse at taking bard dedication, but better without it.
that..is true, and kinda sad, and still results in summoner being played binary and boring. though this direction is largely dependant if you dont already have a bard i guess.
what extra action? are you not boosting your eidolon?To me the summoner is a great user of bard dedication. The extra action they get is great for casting a composition cantrip, and I don't think anything can compete with that. Casters can't take advantage of the boost, martials don't have the actions or feats to spare often. They can also switch off being a mediocre martial and mediocre spell caster as situation requires.
Also they are very powerful when an enemy is next to the eidolon so they can get a full power attack, cast a spell, and inspire courage.
I hope they get worse at taking bard dedication, but better without it.
Well Bard Dedication IS a use for Cha. As to "what extra action?", any composition cantrip is good, like Inspire Courage [though that's 8th]. It's just trading single action buffs, though at least it's for a party one.
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that..is true, and kinda sad, and still results in summoner being played binary and boring. though this direction is largely dependant if you dont already have a bard i guess.Inspire Courage is probably superior to Boost Eidolon - Accuracy is King after all.what extra action? are you not boosting your eidolon?To me the summoner is a great user of bard dedication. The extra action they get is great for casting a composition cantrip, and I don't think anything can compete with that. Casters can't take advantage of the boost, martials don't have the actions or feats to spare often. They can also switch off being a mediocre martial and mediocre spell caster as situation requires.
Also they are very powerful when an enemy is next to the eidolon so they can get a full power attack, cast a spell, and inspire courage.
I hope they get worse at taking bard dedication, but better without it.
Correction: it's actually depressing, since with Bardic dedication, you can make Inspire Courage unquestionably better, as nothing is stopping you from retraining your Level 4/6 class feat into the Lingering Composition focus spell after you pick up Inspire Courage, freeing up your 1Action for later turns as well. Heck, why not cast Boost Eidolon while the Performance lingers at that point?
Correction: it's actually depressing, since with Bardic dedication, you can make Inspire Courage unquestionably better, as nothing is stopping you from retraining your Level 4/6 class feat into the Lingering Composition focus spell after you pick up Inspire Courage, freeing up your 1Action for later turns as well. Heck, why not cast Boost Eidolon while the Performance lingers at that point?that..is true, and kinda sad, and still results in summoner being played binary and boring. though this direction is largely dependant if you dont already have a bard i guess.Inspire Courage is probably superior to Boost Eidolon - Accuracy is King after all.what extra action? are you not boosting your eidolon?To me the summoner is a great user of bard dedication. The extra action they get is great for casting a composition cantrip, and I don't think anything can compete with that. Casters can't take advantage of the boost, martials don't have the actions or feats to spare often. They can also switch off being a mediocre martial and mediocre spell caster as situation requires.
Also they are very powerful when an enemy is next to the eidolon so they can get a full power attack, cast a spell, and inspire courage.
I hope they get worse at taking bard dedication, but better without it.
this is all well and good, but doesnt fix the summoner from being played very rigidly every round.
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Yeah well, that's not an easy fix as long as Act Together forces you to take a 1 Action on both your Eidolon and Summoner every turn in order to keep up action economy.
I made the following proposal in the survey response writeup document that I am currently in the process of fine tuning, and afaict this is the cleanest way to fix the current Summoner action economy problems with Activities.
Act Together currently makes the Summoner hesitant to casting Summon spells as it leaves the Eidolon without an action, something that Druids with Animal Companions do not currently suffer from. In addition, the current action economy system forces an Eidolon to only have 1 action tops on any turn that the Summoner decides to cast a 2 action spell, restricting any effects the Eidolon has that requires 2 Actions to activate to only be useable on turns the Summoner is not casting from a spell slot/wand.
My current suggested solution is to retool Summoner/Eidolon actions to the following:
Eidolons generate 1 Action by default, Summoners generate 3.
Eidolons cannot be affected by Quickened or Slowed. If an Eidolon would ever be subject to Quickened or Slowed, the Summoner is affected instead.
Instead of having Act Together, replace it with the following:
Share Vigor; 1 or 2 Actions
Tandem, Summoner, FlourishYou focus on the bond between you and your Eidolon, granting your Eidolon additional agency at the expense of your own. Your Eidolon gains a number of additional actions equal to the number of Actions spent on Share Vigor. If you are Quickened, you may also give any additional actions granted by Quicken to your Eidolon with the same restrictions you may have had.
The summoner is not exactly rigid every round. They can cast electric arc when an enemy is next to the eidolon are in range.
The summoner is not exactly rigid every round. They can cast electric arc when an enemy is next to the eidolon are in range.
Sure, but if that is a better option then it just changes what your rigid actions for those rounds.
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Apparently you’re going to spend two actions per round on Recall Knowledge, the summoner’s specialty...
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Define rigid? I was under the impression it meant "locked into only one good choice." Either way, I think the retool suggestion I posted above would at least be a clean way to fix whatever problems exist within the current system, either that or just reworking Act Together to apply to activities. If you think Boost Eidolon is the problem then we should discuss options to fix it instead.
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Apparently you’re going to spend two actions per round on Recall Knowledge, the summoner’s specialty...
Considering both of those actions can be conducted under the same 1 action, you're not any slower than others when you opt for this strategy. If you don't like Recall Knowledge, that's on you; besides, if you scout fights with your Eidolon, you can reduce the in-combat action cost to effectively 0 in some cases.
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Apparently you’re going to spend two actions per round on Recall Knowledge, the summoner’s specialty...Considering both of those actions can be conducted under the same 1 action, you're not any slower than others when you opt for this strategy. If you don't like Recall Knowledge, that's on you; besides, if you scout fights with your Eidolon, you can reduce the in-combat action cost to effectively 0 in some cases.
I like it on characters who have competent attribute bonuses and don’t have a competitive marginal one action offensive option. That’s not this class.
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I like it on characters who have competent attribute bonuses and don’t have a competitive marginal one action offensive option. That’s not this class.Apparently you’re going to spend two actions per round on Recall Knowledge, the summoner’s specialty...Considering both of those actions can be conducted under the same 1 action, you're not any slower than others when you opt for this strategy. If you don't like Recall Knowledge, that's on you; besides, if you scout fights with your Eidolon, you can reduce the in-combat action cost to effectively 0 in some cases.
Just RecKnow on the first turn while you're buffing. Eidolon is there as either an Aid partner or a backup if you think you botched the first test. You can still easily opt for the following if your Eidolon is a frontliner, or you can use its action to Recknow on the first turn if you have other frontliners.
-1A RecKnow as part of Act Together
-2A Cast a buff spell from your slots, preferrably Haste
-EA Move
-Haste Strike
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Apparently you’re going to spend two actions per round on Recall Knowledge, the summoner’s specialty...
Well as a bonus, it IS 2 chances to get a wrong answer from a crit failure...
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Apparently you’re going to spend two actions per round on Recall Knowledge, the summoner’s specialty...Well as a bonus, it IS 2 chances to get a wrong answer from a crit failure...
And on at least one of those rolls you might proc Dubious Knowledge. Maybe more if they let Eidolons get skill feats somehow in ths final release, no way of knowing at the moment though.
Define rigid? I was under the impression it meant "locked into only one good choice." Either way, I think the retool suggestion I posted above would at least be a clean way to fix whatever problems exist within the current system, either that or just reworking Act Together to apply to activities. If you think Boost Eidolon is the problem then we should discuss options to fix it instead.
Boost eidolon should be removed and the damage should be folded into the eidolon itself. It won't overpower the summoner as you still will do less than any martial. And it will free up that action, allowing you to.. attack a third time, recall knowledge, demoralize, feint, bon mot, raise a shield, etc etc. That right there would go a huge way to making your rounds more interesting.
And on at least one of those rolls you might proc Dubious Knowledge. Maybe more if they let Eidolons get skill feats somehow in ths final release, no way of knowing at the moment though.Apparently you’re going to spend two actions per round on Recall Knowledge, the summoner’s specialty...Well as a bonus, it IS 2 chances to get a wrong answer from a crit failure...
Do we get dubious knowledge for free somewhere? Why does every counter argument involve you magically having the exact feat for the situation. I never have that many feat slots.
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I think its better to look for ways to suggest improvements to Boost Eidolon, as opposed to replacing it with an even more boring and un-interactive static boost to damage.
Not to mention, its existence may be part of the reason Summoners are allowed to have so many effective actions before factoring in Quickened - Act Together and Tandem move is 2 more effective actions than anyone else in the party, and it may be very much intentional that Boost Eidolon is a tax to reign that in.
As in, a Summoner is allowed to use all those actions they generate, but if they want to maximize damage they have to reign their action count back down by using Boost.
I have a hard time believing that the damage output of the Summoner wasn't tuned to a specific goal prior to playtest. Game developers can do math just as well as we can.
Act Together currently makes the Summoner hesitant to casting Summon spells as it leaves the Eidolon without an action, something that Druids with Animal Companions do not currently suffer from.
Isn't there a feat to help with that?
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I think its better to look for ways to suggest improvements to Boost Eidolon, as opposed to replacing it with an even more boring and un-interactive static boost to damage.
Not to mention, its existence may be part of the reason Summoners are allowed to have so many effective actions before factoring in Quickened - Act Together and Tandem move is 2 more effective actions than anyone else in the party, and it may be very much intentional that Boost Eidolon is a tax to reign that in.
As in, a Summoner is allowed to use all those actions they generate, but if they want to maximize damage they have to reign their action count back down by using Boost.
I have a hard time believing that the damage output of the Summoner wasn't tuned to a specific goal prior to playtest. Game developers can do math just as well as we can.
I would absolutely be ok with the eidolon doing even less damage and not being compensated for it's removal in exchange for having that action freed up to do other things.
But I don't see how you can make boost work, because boost currently works, it just results in some of the just inflexible and boring combat I've ever seen.
But you address your boring comment. The idea of rolling boost into the classes base damage has nothing to do with making that damage boost more interesting. However having a free action to do all the things classes normally do with their third action would open up summoner's combat rounds so much that they might be fun to play in combat because there is an actual choice to make every round.
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Isn't there a feat to help with that?Act Together currently makes the Summoner hesitant to casting Summon spells as it leaves the Eidolon without an action, something that Druids with Animal Companions do not currently suffer from.
Iirc Distracting Summon is the only thing that assists that, and even then it requires your Eidolon to already be engaged with an enemy from the prior turn and your Summoner to be close enough to drop the summon adjacent to the eidolon's target. Not sure I like having it restrained to a conditional feat.
And on at least one of those rolls you might proc Dubious Knowledge.
So an even BETTER chance to get 2 wrong answers and no way to tell them apart from the right one... Cool? I'm not seeing how it's an improvement. In fact I think I might rather just assume all the answers are incorrect at the point I get more answers than I should.
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And on at least one of those rolls you might proc Dubious Knowledge.So an even BETTER chance to get 2 wrong answers and no way to tell them apart from the right one... Cool? I'm not seeing how it's an improvement. In fact I think I might rather just assume all the answers are incorrect at the point I get more answers than I should.
Am I the only person here that enjoys using Dubious Knowledge then? Personally I enjoy getting some form of hint as to a creature's abilities, even if I do have to narrow it down a bit. If anything, it beats the heck out of getting a "no response" result.
As for the Summoner, its not like you'd get a result from your Eidolon in the same set of info you'd get from the Dubious Knowledge roll, so at that point you'd know that 1 of the two dubious knowledge results is accurate, and the Eidolon's roll may or may not be accurate, so its not like having an Eidolon makes Dubious Knowledge results any less useful than they'd be on other characters.
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Any class with maximum Int/Wis and access to a roll twice focus power and/or a "boost your result" feat is better than a summoner and his eidolon because the summoner can't max a recall knowledge attribute and the eidolon lags heavily in mental stats. An investigator with knowledge domain power or the enigma bard reroll can crush these.And yet Bidi is objectively correct here - no one else can roll Recall Knowledge better than a summoner and an Eidolon, whose recall knowledge DCs get harder slower and whom can roll a second check after failing.
First, the Summoner can have near max Int/Wis as he doesn't have any important stat besides Constitution (Charisma can be dumped).
Second, the Summoner can also have a reroll.Third, 2 rolls is better than a rerolled one. If both rolls succeed you get 2 pieces of information, which is the equivalent of a critical success (even if the DM can choose to give you the same information twice, but most DM I've played with tend to give different information if they can).
And more rolls mean more critical failures implies it's best to never roll a check ever.
It's very easy to increase int and wis on both the Eidolon and the Summoner. The Summoner can increase Dex, Con, Wis and Int, and the Eidolon Dex, Str, Wis and Int, both ending at 18 in their stats which should mean no crit failures outside natural 1s.
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Define rigid? I was under the impression it meant "locked into only one good choice." Either way, I think the retool suggestion I posted above would at least be a clean way to fix whatever problems exist within the current system, either that or just reworking Act Together to apply to activities. If you think Boost Eidolon is the problem then we should discuss options to fix it instead.Boost eidolon should be removed and the damage should be folded into the eidolon itself. It won't overpower the summoner as you still will do less than any martial. And it will free up that action, allowing you to.. attack a third time, recall knowledge, demoralize, feint, bon mot, raise a shield, etc etc. That right there would go a huge way to making your rounds more interesting.
I agree the eidelon should do it's thing and the summoner should do it's own thing. If the caster half is gonna get focus cantrips make them interesting like a one action cantrip to let the eidelon take a 2 action power attack or a 1 action cantrip to let the eidelon cast a 2 action spell (effectively like reach spell metamagic). Don't let a one action cantrip be a mild math fixer for damage. That's not all that exciting
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Actual that does seem like a perk if eidolons don't suffer from death or disintegrate effects at 0hp that's a neat bonus. I suppose that is also a neat way around stuff like petrify and poison if you can just walk 100ft away from them and resummon.Here is the thing though. The summoner does.
So go on keep making yourself unconcious. They way the eidolon can be free of the summoner as I'm sure it desires.
What does it matter? The summoner and eidolon get 4 actions together. Period. Monks that flurry get four actions. Rangers with hunted prey get four actions. Druids and any class with a mature animal companion gets four actions.
Both the summoner and eidolon share the same hit point pool. If it tries to mess with hazards and fails, it's going take a lot of damage and get both itself and the summoner killed.
These folks talking up like the eidolon is some kind of great trap remover is ridiculous. You take the damage and effect from the trap with your eidolon. There is no benefit from using the eidolon. If your eidolon is at the trap, you are at the trap. If your eidolon is getting hit, you are getting hit. You are one creature in two bodies, not two independent creatures. No idea why people keep making this assertion when the rules do not support it.
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Any class with maximum Int/Wis and access to a roll twice focus power and/or a "boost your result" feat is better than a summoner and his eidolon because the summoner can't max a recall knowledge attribute and the eidolon lags heavily in mental stats. An investigator with knowledge domain power or the enigma bard reroll can crush these.And yet Bidi is objectively correct here - no one else can roll Recall Knowledge better than a summoner and an Eidolon, whose recall knowledge DCs get harder slower and whom can roll a second check after failing.
First, the Summoner can have near max Int/Wis as he doesn't have any important stat besides Constitution (Charisma can be dumped).
Second, the Summoner can also have a reroll.
Third, 2 rolls is better than a rerolled one. If both rolls succeed you get 2 pieces of information, which is the equivalent of a critical success (even if the DM can choose to give you the same information twice, but most DM I've played with tend to give different information if they can).And more rolls mean more critical failures implies it's best to never roll a check ever.
It's very easy to increase int and wis on both the Eidolon and the Summoner. The Summoner can increase Dex, Con, Wis and Int, and the Eidolon Dex, Str, Wis and Int, both ending at 18 in their stats which should mean no crit failures outside natural 1s.
The fabled Recall Knowledge ability as proof that a class is decent. An ability literally every class can use, but somehow certain classes are balanced according to their ability to use Recall Knowledge.
You know once the defenders of a class fall back on skills and the fabled recall knowledge ability, it's because they've already clearly lost the argument discussing class balance.
No class should be considered ok because it is best at Recall Knowledge, an ability anyone with a skill can use.
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The summoner is not exactly rigid every round. They can cast electric arc when an enemy is next to the eidolon are in range.
With your lower spellcasting stat? It might do ok damage, but I tried this as a monk with the lower spellcasting stat and a maxed out wisdom with adapted cantrip. Let's just say it did not equal the damage done by other martials combined with a flurry attack. It was in fact quite sad.
The fabled Recall Knowledge ability as proof that a class is decent. An ability literally every class can use, but somehow certain classes are balanced according to their ability to use Recall Knowledge.
You know once the defenders of a class fall back on skills and the fabled recall knowledge ability, it's because they've already clearly lost the argument discussing class balance.
No class should be considered ok because it is best at Recall Knowledge, an ability anyone with a skill can use.
Recall Knowledge was taken as an example of a skill that can be rolled by multiple people. Summoner is also the best at Perception, maybe is it a more interesting skill in your opinion?
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Any class with maximum Int/Wis and access to a roll twice focus power and/or a "boost your result" feat is better than a summoner and his eidolon because the summoner can't max a recall knowledge attribute and the eidolon lags heavily in mental stats. An investigator with knowledge domain power or the enigma bard reroll can crush these.And yet Bidi is objectively correct here - no one else can roll Recall Knowledge better than a summoner and an Eidolon, whose recall knowledge DCs get harder slower and whom can roll a second check after failing.
First, the Summoner can have near max Int/Wis as he doesn't have any important stat besides Constitution (Charisma can be dumped).
Second, the Summoner can also have a reroll.
Third, 2 rolls is better than a rerolled one. If both rolls succeed you get 2 pieces of information, which is the equivalent of a critical success (even if the DM can choose to give you the same information twice, but most DM I've played with tend to give different information if they can).And more rolls mean more critical failures implies it's best to never roll a check ever.
It's very easy to increase int and wis on both the Eidolon and the Summoner. The Summoner can increase Dex, Con, Wis and Int, and the Eidolon Dex, Str, Wis and Int, both ending at 18 in their stats which should mean no crit failures outside natural 1s.The fabled Recall Knowledge ability as proof that a class is decent. An ability literally every class can use, but somehow certain classes are balanced according to their ability to use Recall Knowledge.
You know once the defenders of a class fall back on skills and the fabled recall knowledge ability, it's because they've already clearly lost the argument discussing class balance.
No class should be considered ok because it is best at Recall Knowledge, an ability anyone with a skill can use.
The thread title is "What does the Summoner excel at?," not "Tell me why the Summoner is Decent." They excel at skill checks and recall knowledge. They also are pretty great for scouting since if the Eidolon dies, the Summoner just fell over outside the dungeon and the rest of the party can fix them up using easily renewable resources. That's what they currently excel at, otherwise they are an action-crunched generalist with a cool concept. They're OK at the moment due to being a generalist that can do a bit of everything; they won't do it great, but they can do a bit of everything. The playtest is to try to get them to be more exciting for doing things people want to be doing instead of just having weird corner cases like the ones described above.
Stop grandstanding about all of the classes in this playtest being weak, we get it and its tiresome to hear your constant doomsaying. Try to work towards proposing solutions and developing an understanding for the class as it currently exists compared to what players might want to see.
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First, the Summoner can have near max Int/Wis as he doesn't have any important stat besides Constitution (Charisma can be dumped
He DOES have other important stats: Con and Dex: Your fighting buddy needs HP and both of you need saves. And if you tank dex, so to do you tank Ref and AC meaning getting targeted is much more likely to crit. "near max Int/Wis" just isn't, IMO, feasible for a Pseudo-Martial class.
Second, the Summoner can also have a reroll.
Sure but they should be MUCH worse rerolls than other people that have a natural affinity for them: you're trying to put a square peg in a round hole.
Third, 2 rolls is better than a rerolled one.
No they aren't: If you miss 2 strikes, where they better than missing a single strike? No, it was still a complete failure. Worse, you can crit fail twice for double the wrong answers. You JUST aren't gong to be hitting the same DC as a class built for those skills and has the spare stats to put in the relevant stats.
And more rolls mean more critical failures implies it's best to never roll a check ever.
No, not at all. Rolling more rolls with a good chance of success is good. Rolling more rolls with an increased crit fail chance isn't good. When you're more likely to crit fail than crit succeed, IMo it's not good.
It's very easy to increase int and wis on both the Eidolon and the Summoner.
Sure so you have a 12 stat to start: not good at -3 max. At 5th you're 14 so -2 max: not great. At 10th you drop to -3 again, at 15th you go back to -2 and at 20 you're back to -3. Those are not insubstantial minuses for a 'skill monkey'.
both ending at 18 in their stats which should mean no crit failures outside natural 1s.
At 20, a legendary check [DC 40] vs legendary [+8]+stat 10[+4]+ level [20] = +32. So for a PLAIN common check, sure on a one but that's just a simple chart number: it says "Use these DCs when a PC needs to Identify a Spell or Recall Knowledge about a creature when talking about Level checks that go to DC 50 and rarity adjustments can add up to 10 so you can have a DC of 60.
So NO. You can get crit failures on a 18.
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They excel at skill checks and recall knowledge.
No they don't.
They excel at skill checks and recall knowledge.
They excel at skill checks and recall knowledge. They also are pretty great for scouting since if the Eidolon dies, the Summoner just fell over outside the dungeon and the rest of the party can fix them up using easily renewable resources.
They can scout 100' and the summoner can't do anything and is senseless plus if something happens to the 'pet', it can take less than a round for foes to reach the now KO'd summoner: Doesn't seem "pretty great". Even with Unfetter, you've only got a 1 min for a focus point.
if the Eidolon dies, the Summoner just fell over outside the dungeon and the rest of the party can fix them up using easily renewable resources.
You did read the class right? 100' range? What dungeon is scouted after 100' and/or 1 min? You can make it JUST far enough to successfully attract monsters towards the party. :P
Am I the only person here that enjoys using Dubious Knowledge then?
I cant speak for everyone but I personally LOATHE it and would never ever take it: even if I for some reason got it for free, I'd beg the DM to allow me to remove it. Honestly, I'd remove something else too is it would allow me not to have it. it, IMO, just that BAD.
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Recall Knowledge was taken as an example of a skill that can be rolled by multiple people. Summoner is also the best at Perception, maybe is it a more interesting skill in your opinion?The fabled Recall Knowledge ability as proof that a class is decent. An ability literally every class can use, but somehow certain classes are balanced according to their ability to use Recall Knowledge.
You know once the defenders of a class fall back on skills and the fabled recall knowledge ability, it's because they've already clearly lost the argument discussing class balance.
No class should be considered ok because it is best at Recall Knowledge, an ability anyone with a skill can use.
No. I'm not sure why you think this when both the rogue and ranger have Legendary Perception and usually get high level stealth making their initiatives very high and their chance to see very good.
And once again I point out that a summoner spending two actions to seek will have no effect on the group dynamic of everyone in the group making Perception checks.
I really have no idea why so many of you think of players in solo scenarios as though that is the common way the game is played. It isn't. How does this class work in the group dynamic? Where does it fit?
Does it heal well? Does it do more damage than other martial choices? Is it better at skills than a rogue? Does it tank as well as the Champion? Where does the summoner fit within a group?
If you can't build the class to be specialized in one area of a group function like dealing damage, mitigating damage, healing damage, then it's just one of four or five characters all making multiple skill rolls out of combat.
In combat, who cares if it can seek twice if the bard or a multiclass fighter wizard can just cast see invis because he has a 2nd level slot to spend on it when the summoner has to pick 4 high value spells for it's specialized function. A summoner can't cast see invis on his eidolon anyway as that would take up one of his four slots, which forces him to buy the eidolon magic evolution just to get a 1st or 2nd level spell another caster can case while having an animal companion. Then once they can see it, they can faerie fire or glitterdust the invisible enemy making it visible for the group. The summoner would likely never spend one of four known spells on this casting combinations.
Don't you think about the way the game is actually played before you throw out theorycraft?
No they aren't: If you miss 2 strikes, where they better than missing a single strike? No, it was still a complete failure. Worse, you can crit fail twice for double the wrong answers. You JUST aren't gong to be hitting the same DC as a class built for those skills and has the spare stats to put in the relevant stats.
Rolling 2 Strikes (at same bonus) is better than having a reroll at one Strike, yes. Far far better.
At 20, a legendary check [DC 40] vs legendary [+8]+stat 10[+4]+ level [20] = +32. So for a PLAIN common check, sure on a one but that's just a simple chart number: it says "Use these DCs when a PC needs to Identify a Spell or Recall Knowledge about a creature when talking about Level checks that go to DC 50 and rarity adjustments can add up to 10 so you can have a DC of 60.
First, it's 35 (item bonus). Second, you have a second roll at 36 (because the Summoner will end up at 20). DCs above 45 are quite a rarity. 45 is very hard DC. Clearly, if you have a near impossible check to do, it's better to have a +3 than a reroll. But for most checks, a reroll is just as good (actually, a reroll is slightly better than a +3).
And you are speaking of someone who has a natural affinity to them. The Summoner has a natural affinity to checks that can be rolled by multiple characters, which is a pretty broad check affinity.
Summoner's also the best at Perception when your specialized Recall Knowledge guy won't have any affinity with Perception.
No. I'm not sure why you think this when both the rogue and ranger have Legendary Perception.
Summoner can get to Master. And thanks to the Eidolon, it has a reroll, which is better than a +3. So it's above Legendary.
During combat, it's worse because it doesn't have six actions (only 4). But out of combat, you are better in Perception than Rogues and Rangers.Does it heal well? Does it do more damage than other martial choices? Is it better at skills than a rogue? Does it tank as well as the Champion? Where does the summoner fit within a group?
It has competitive skills against the Rogue, it heals like any healer but not for long if you choose a Beast or Angel, it has honorable martial skills and can tank really well if you get Drakescale Mutagen for your Eidolon. It fits in a lot of groups actually. If you don't see the benefit of a versatile character, it's on you.
The Summoner is borderline overpowered in my opinion: as soon as you start thinking about it, you realize that there's so much room for optimization.
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The thread title is "What does...Any class with maximum Int/Wis and access to a roll twice focus power and/or a "boost your result" feat is better than a summoner and his eidolon because the summoner can't max a recall knowledge attribute and the eidolon lags heavily in mental stats. An investigator with knowledge domain power or the enigma bard reroll can crush these.And yet Bidi is objectively correct here - no one else can roll Recall Knowledge better than a summoner and an Eidolon, whose recall knowledge DCs get harder slower and whom can roll a second check after failing.
First, the Summoner can have near max Int/Wis as he doesn't have any important stat besides Constitution (Charisma can be dumped).
Second, the Summoner can also have a reroll.
Third, 2 rolls is better than a rerolled one. If both rolls succeed you get 2 pieces of information, which is the equivalent of a critical success (even if the DM can choose to give you the same information twice, but most DM I've played with tend to give different information if they can).And more rolls mean more critical failures implies it's best to never roll a check ever.
It's very easy to increase int and wis on both the Eidolon and the Summoner. The Summoner can increase Dex, Con, Wis and Int, and the Eidolon Dex, Str, Wis and Int, both ending at 18 in their stats which should mean no crit failures outside natural 1s.The fabled Recall Knowledge ability as proof that a class is decent. An ability literally every class can use, but somehow certain classes are balanced according to their ability to use Recall Knowledge.
You know once the defenders of a class fall back on skills and the fabled recall knowledge ability, it's because they've already clearly lost the argument discussing class balance.
No class should be considered ok because it is best at Recall Knowledge, an ability anyone with a skill can use.
I already stated where I think it should go. They should model it on the Magus and Summoner of PF1.
1. Spell strike being a round to round 2 action ability usable cantrips.
2. Eidolon as separate independent creature with its own hit point pool, actions, and the like.
3. 4 slot casting out. 2 slots of every level up to 7th and 1 8th and 9th level slot. Or keep the 2 slots of 8th and 9th level with slot of every lower level slot. Give you room for casting those lower level buffs and spells that add a little utility.
Once they bring those 3 factors back in, then we can start focusing on the other parts again. As long as those are gone, the rest is a non-starter.
Like I said before, this is looking like a 4E level of division. A bunch of people arguing this is all ok, but some of us are sending up the clear red flag that this is a very bad direction to go in.
Given what happened with 4E, I'm hoping the Paizo design team makes a wiser move than did the 4E design team.
It hurts them not at all to put back in what the PF1 summoner and magus fans enjoyed with the old PF1 versions of the class and build around that as the folks that will almost always go with what Paizo wants will continue to go with what they want. While those who are strongly reacting negatively to the current class design choices will leave and not come back.
That's exactly what happened to 4E. Those who would always go along with D&D no matter what they did to the game stayed and played and would have been happy with almost anything the D&D team put out. While those that were strongly opposed to the new design choices of the team left to PF1 and didn't return until 5E.
That's why I think Paizo should look at what summoner and magus fans are strongly opposed to and those elements that clearly aren't at all like they were with PF1 and get rid of them. No questions asked, no screwing around, no making it seem ok.
Just flat out get rid of those design elements, we need people behind both of these classes from the beginning or we can't move forward. And right now, it's a can't move forward scenario.
4 slot casting mucho bad.
Spell strike four times a day due to 4 slot casting mucho bad.
Eidolon with shared hit point pool where you just fall on your face if it goes down scouting mucho bad. That's not how a summoner player is supposed to view his eidolon as some expendable thing that knocks him out because it was killed scouting for some group to get him back up with medicine because the rules say he can.
An eidolon is supposed to be a separate, powerful creature that the summoner views as his powerful companion he uses to do battle with his enemies. Not some weird hybrid expendable spell trick of shared hit points and pain. The eidolon is supposed to shield the summoner from damage, not share it with him.
It's a non-starter until we get back to that. That's priority number one when building a summoner just like round to round spell strike is priority number one for a good magus. We're not even starting there, which is mucho bad.
First, it's 35 (item bonus).
*shrug* Sure, it's not going to change much.
Second, you have a second roll at 36 (because the Summoner will end up at 20).
Sure... And?
DCs above 45 are quite a rarity.
The level chart goes to level 25 for a 50
"45 is very hard DC. Clearly, if you have a near impossible check to do, it's better to have a +3 than a reroll. But for most checks, a reroll is just as good (actually, a reroll is slightly better than a +3).
I don't agree: unless the roll is so easy, it's not worth rolling, the true skill monkey is going to have a batter chance and have a lower chance to not fail/crit fail. That's just the way it is. If it's not a hard check and you can't fail, the SAME person can just keep rechecking so I don't see the benefit.
The Summoner has a natural affinity to checks that can be rolled by multiple characters, which is a pretty broad check affinity
A reroll doesn't make up for an off stat and lagging proficiency. It also doesn't factor in the whole life span of the character: sure your stats are closer at 20 but what about 1-4? 5-9?
Summoner's also the best at Perception when your specialized Recall Knowledge guy won't have any affinity with Perception.
What? Rogue/investigator has legendary at 13th. Both can have Key Stats of Int.
During combat, it's worse because it doesn't have six actions (only 4). But out of combat, you are better in Perception than Rogues and Rangers.
Not really: Both have abilities to do multiple Exploration activities so the can do a perception activity and another. In fact, it's more often better to cover multiple activities than focus on one: unless you're all searching for a secret door it's unlikely you have multiple people searching but if you are then there is likely not much difference in who finds it.
I don't agree: unless the roll is so easy, it's not worth rolling, the true skill monkey is going to have a batter chance and have a lower chance to not fail/crit fail.
Chance to fail a DC 40 Perception check for a maxed Rogue: 15%.
Chance to fail a DC 40 Perception check for my Summoner: 7.5%.Chance to fail a DC 45 Perception check for a maxed Rogue: 40%.
Chance to fail a DC 45 Perception check for my Summoner: 27.5%.
Chance to fail a DC 50 Perception check for a maxed Rogue: 65%.
Chance to fail a DC 50 Perception check for my Summoner: 60%.
Nuff said.
I don't agree: unless the roll is so easy, it's not worth rolling, the true skill monkey is going to have a batter chance and have a lower chance to not fail/crit fail.Chance to fail a DC 40 Perception check for a maxed Rogue: 15%.
Chance to fail a DC 40 Perception check for my Summoner: 7.5%.
Chance to fail a DC 45 Perception check for a maxed Rogue: 40%.
Chance to fail a DC 45 Perception check for my Summoner: 27.5%.
Chance to fail a DC 50 Perception check for a maxed Rogue: 65%.
Chance to fail a DC 50 Perception check for my Summoner: 60%.
Nuff said.
First, I was clearly talking about skills. Second, you've both using the exact same exploration activity JUST to get a imaginary +1? Bully for you. That took a WHOLE lot of work to find a single way to get a virtual +1.
Still not seeing better at skills.
I don't agree: unless the roll is so easy, it's not worth rolling, the true skill monkey is going to have a batter chance and have a lower chance to not fail/crit fail.Chance to fail a DC 40 Perception check for a maxed Rogue: 15%.
Chance to fail a DC 40 Perception check for my Summoner: 7.5%.
Chance to fail a DC 45 Perception check for a maxed Rogue: 40%.
Chance to fail a DC 45 Perception check for my Summoner: 27.5%.
Chance to fail a DC 50 Perception check for a maxed Rogue: 65%.
Chance to fail a DC 50 Perception check for my Summoner: 60%.
Nuff said.First, I was clearly talking about skills. Second, you've both using the exact same exploration activity JUST to get a imaginary +1? Bully for you. That took a WHOLE lot of work to find a single way to get a virtual +1.
Still not seeing better at skills.
What??? What's this +1 you speak about?
I'm just comparing the Summoner and the Rogue doing Search. The Summoner's best because the Eidolon also does it. And the Summoner's also excellent for Recall Knowledge checks and so on. A Summoner built for skills has better chances to succeed in a whole variety of situations compared to a Rogue. Which is enough in my opinion to say that the Summoner is excellent at skills (I don't say it's better than a Rogue, just that both are excellent in their own way).
Easy solve. You can die and get wounded if your Eidolon goes to 0.It's not likely that triggering a deadly trap will be a thing that happens so often. Limiting the numer of times that the eidolon can be manifested would only be an annoyance and something you have to keep track of, while not limiting the bomb defusal thing in any meaningful way, unless you are slowly treading upon a minefield of sort.
It's still something that when it happens, even if only once during a campaign, means saving a PC's life. Not bad.
I think my opinion on the matter wasn't clear.
I'm saying that being able to send your eidolon in a very very dangerous spot and risk triggering a deadly trap without actually killing anyone in the party is good; but it's not a situation so common that it makes having this option too powerful. So, no fix needed.
I already stated where I think it should go. They should model it on the Magus and Summoner of PF1.
1. Spell strike being a round to round 2 action ability usable cantrips.
2. Eidolon as separate independent creature with its own hit point pool, actions, and the like.
3. 4 slot casting out. 2 slots of every level up to 7th and 1 8th and 9th level slot. Or keep the 2 slots of 8th and 9th level with slot of every lower level slot. Give you room for casting those lower level buffs and spells that add a little utility.
Once they bring those 3 factors back in, then we can start focusing on the other parts again. As long as those are gone, the rest is a non-starter.
Like I said before, this is looking like a 4E level of division. A bunch of people arguing this is all ok, but some of us are sending up the clear red flag that this is a very bad direction to go in.
Given what happened with 4E, I'm hoping the Paizo design team makes a wiser move than did the 4E design team.
It hurts them not at all to put back in what the PF1 summoner and magus fans enjoyed with the old PF1 versions of the class and build around that as the folks that will almost always go with what Paizo wants will continue to go with what they want. While those who are strongly reacting negatively to the current class design choices will leave and not come back.
That's exactly what happened to 4E. Those who would always go along with D&D no matter what they did to the game stayed and played and would have been happy with almost anything the D&D team put out. While those that were strongly opposed to the new design choices of the team left to PF1 and didn't return until 5E.
That's why I think Paizo should look at what summoner and magus fans are strongly opposed to and those elements that clearly aren't at all like they were with PF1 and get rid of them. No questions asked, no screwing around, no making it seem ok.
Just flat out get rid of those design elements, we need people behind both of these classes from the beginning or we can't move forward. And right now, it's a can't move forward scenario.
4 slot casting mucho bad.
Spell strike four times a day due to 4 slot casting mucho bad.
Eidolon with shared hit point pool where you just fall on your face if it goes down scouting mucho bad. That's not how a summoner player is supposed to view his eidolon as some expendable thing that knocks him out because it was killed scouting for some group to get him back up with medicine because the rules say he can.
An eidolon is supposed to be a separate, powerful creature that the summoner views as his powerful companion he uses to do battle with his enemies. Not some weird hybrid expendable spell trick of shared hit points and pain. The eidolon is supposed to shield the summoner from damage, not share it with him.
It's a non-starter until we get back to that. That's priority number one when building a summoner just like round to round spell strike is priority number one for a good magus. We're not even starting there, which is mucho bad.
The developers aren't idiots. They clearly had reasons to present these two classes as they are in the playtest: many basic mechanics have changed since PF1, there's a different idea of balance (excpecially when spellcasting is involved), they wanted to try out new ideas...
About your main three points to change, there's definitely something to be done about 1. I don't know what, and yours is a possbile idea.Point 2 is a hard no: giving a player 6 actions per round is something that will never happen in PF2. It would also mean that you have to power down both the summoner and the eidolon, unless you want to give two PCs to each of the other players too. I think that sharing actions, at least, is a brilliant idea, and I'm not against sharing HPs too.
About point 3, someone on this forum had proposed the idea of giving all casters spell slots of their three highest level, and nothing else. They did something similar here. Maybe 4 slots are too few, maybe 6 would be a number that doesn't unbalance things and is more fun to play, but the idea isn't something to reject as a whole.
You are basically saying that they have to scrap everything they did about these new classes and make them a clone of what they were in the previous edition. It's an extreme position that won't do any good. There's a lot that can be done to fix the current issues without restarting from scratch.
Venturing comparisons with 4E is absurd in this context, expecially since we are just talking a playtest of 2 out of (currently) 18 available classes, and IMO you are only doing that to try and put more weight on your opinions.
Where is the +1 from?
Reroll on a D20 is worth +3.325.
Calculation is here https://imgur.com/Fojig3C
Thanks. It must be a bit less as the second roll is at -1, but yes, it's close to a +1.
Which is awesome, first because PF2 maths are really tight and because I'm comparing the Summoner to the best character in the domain. So, he's better than the best which... makes it the best!Summoners are really good at skills and compete with Rogues and Investigators if you invest in them (if you don't invest in skills, rerolling Trained skills is not very interesting).