| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've really liked the idea bouncing around about there being a feat/series of feats that allows an eidolon to take an archetype dedication and feats from that archetype, which I quite like (in no small part because a Beast with Celebrity would allow you to make a famous circus bear eidolon that rides a unicycle).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
But that does get into a weird interaction...
"My Eidolon is a beast master Eidolon!. My pet controls a pet."
This could work for a fey Eidolon though. It would be pretty thematic.
Or a Eidolon that manifest a power armor eidolon (synthesis-style)...
I feel like summoners niche is having access to cool tactics available usually only to monsters. Things like...
Rend, swallow whole, constrict, trample, web, breath weapon (please don't make it so only dragons get this. There are so many cool concepts besides dragon that could make good use of it), pounce, poison, swoop, different auras, gallop, howls, charges... That's just a couple things going through the bestiary.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
LOL! I want my Eidolon wearing an Eidolon...Or a Eidolon that manifest a power armor eidolon (synthesis)...But that does get into a weird interaction...
"My Eidolon is a beast master Eidolon!. My pet controls a pet."
This could work for a fey Eidolon though. It would be pretty thematic.
Wait... You could wear your eidolon who is also wearing an eidolon... Matryoshka doll summoner FTW!!!
|
I was starting to make a copypaste of thoughts for the survey and it included an Evo feat sugggestion for Archetypes, so I'll share it here.
2nd Level Feat:
Evolved Dedication
Eidolon, Evolution, SummonerSelect a common Archetype and gain its Dedication feat. Archetypes with the Multiclass trait cannot be selected with this feat. The dedication feat gains the Eidolon, Evolution, and Summoner traits. Add all feats from the selected Dedication to your Class Feat pool, adding the Eidolon, Evolution, and Summoner traits to the feats.
If a feat from the dedication requires the use of a weapon, treat your Eidolon's natural attacks as a weapon for the purposes of using the feat; if the feat requires a specific weapon trait to use, your Eidolon must have that trait on the natural attack in order to use it for the feat. Eidolon attacks count as 1-handed weapons for the sake of Archetype feats.
Limits spellcasting archetypes on an Eidolon, which might be a concern for Paizo. Since the dedication feat is still a dedication feat, this would effectively lock the Summoner out from dedication feats until the Eidolon has 3+ total feats from the archetype.
I also plan to write up like a Lv 8-12ish feat that has Unarmed Evolution as a prereq, the idea is it would give a Universal monster effect as a rider to the attack, e.g. Monster Knockdown, Monster Grab, Monster Rend, etc.
A system like making an Eidolon_evolutin tag for feats and every time the summoner takes any feat that is not tagged with Evolution, your Eidolon gets a free Eidolon_evolution feat. This sets two power levels for feats and allows you to pick up much more customization for your Eidolon. You can choose feats to buff summoning or actions and your Eidolon gets a free feat, get two Eidolon_evolution feats, or choose one more powerful Evolution feat.
Downside is there would need to be a lot of feats, but I feel that's the only thing that will make a lot of people happy with what we have now.
Feat ideas:
Low level flight, this is a core to so many creatures, I think if you limit it right, then it shouldn't be able to break games. Like base it on athletics training. At trained it works like climbing, except you're climbing air, maybe give clumsy 1 or 2 as an added negative. Expert would be the same minus the clumsy. Master would give you half your move speed for flight. Legendary would give full movespeed.
Resistance. 1/2 level to one non physical resist. Able to take multiple times, every time you take it beyond the first you also get weakness to 2 elements.
Physical resist as a standard Evolution, likely mid level.
Dragon roar, like the monk ability or wyrm domain spell Roar of the wyrm.
Beast could get scaling survival training and bonus to tracking and recall knowledge.
Angels/demons/fey could have options similar to versatile ancestry feats.
Attack as one, tandem boost, if you use act as one and both actions are melee strikes, only the second attack incurs MAP.
Fling, like monk whirling throw.
Slam, like barbarian thrash (Mark already suggested this, and it's great.)
Trample
Rend
Tremor sense
Poison
Constrict/crush
Some way to access skill feats.
More feats to add weapon traits to attacks, even perhaps at a loss of die size.
Side piece, able to add a +2 circumstance bonus to diplomacy, deception or intimidation checks to the summoner in social situations.
I'm helping: once per hour or day, single action, before rolling a non attack check, if your Eidolon is adjacent to you, it turns any success into a critical success and any failure into a critical failure.
Debilitating Evolution (free action)
Requirement: your last action was a strike that dealt acid, piercing, poison or slashing damage.
Frequency: once per minute
When you gain this feat, choose one of clumsy, enfeebled, or stupefied. Your eidolon gains the ability to weaken foes with their attacks. After hitting with a strike, you force the target to make a fortitude saving throw.
Critical success: No effect
Success: The target is afflicted with one step of the chosen condition for one round
Failure: The target is afflicted with one step of the chosen condition for one minute
Critical failure: The target is afflicted with two steps of the chosen condition for one minute
Debilitating Evolution (free action)
Requirement: your last action was a strike that dealt acid, piercing, poison or slashing damage.
Frequency: once per minute
When you gain this feat, choose one of clumsy, enfeebled, or stupefied. Your eidolon gains the ability to weaken foes with their attacks. After hitting with a strike, you force the target to make a fortitude saving throw.
Critical success: No effect
Success: The target is afflicted with one step of the chosen condition for one round
Failure: The target is afflicted with one step of the chosen condition for one minute
Critical failure: The target is afflicted with two steps of the chosen condition for one minute
Just a note, but I think that typically for abilities that don't have a resource cost and can be repeated indefinitely, you don't get a effect on a Successful saving throw. Thats typically reserved for things like spells which have a fixed resource cost. I think* this is true for many Focus Spells, which essentially have a 'recurring, but non-persistent' resource cost. (*I don't think this is true of all Focus Spells, just many).
That said, I like the idea.
What about making it just once per turn, after all attacks are made, the target makes a Fortitude Save if it took any damage from the Eidolon's strikes (like Stunning Fist).
Success - No Effect.
Failure - Condition 1, 1 round.
Critical Failure - Condition 2, 1 round.
I suppose, for myself, I'm more likely to take something like this if it applies every round as opposed to once per minute, even if its less reliable in that given round.
Limiting it to once per minute means it's basically once per fight.
It could cost an action to use, and then upgrade to a free action later (perhaps when the Eidolon gains Master unarmed proficiency).
I was also thinking about more powerful abilities (like slowed) which come with the incapacitation trait as once per hour options.
Either way, having this kind of ability to represent spider/scorpion stings, fey curses, etc seems important.
Limiting it to once per minute means it's basically once per fight.
It could cost an action to use, and then upgrade to a free action later (perhaps when the Eidolon gains Master unarmed proficiency).
I was also thinking about more powerful abilities (like slowed) which come with the incapacitation trait as once per hour options.
Either way, having this kind of ability to represent spider/scorpion stings, fey curses, etc seems important.
I'd be totally shocked if we didn't get something like Envenom Fangs (Lizardfolk Ancestry Feat) for poisonous Eidolons, but yeah - I agree that debuffing attacks are pretty awesome and cover a lot of thematic ground for a relatively low cost in printed feats.
Combat Reflexes - (level 6) - The Eidolon gains the Attack of Opportunity Ability
I wouldn't be upset if Eidolons got their own take on AOO (see the Monk's Stand Still) but yeah, something like this.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Scorpion Tail/ Reach (level 6) - Pick one of your unarmed attacks this attack gains the reach trait
For something like this, you'd fold it with a few other abilities to make it worth being a feat, and give it a name that doesn't imply it's only for a specific creature type or appendage.
Improved Unarmed Evolution 8
Prerequisite: Unarmed Evolution
Choose one of your unarmed attacks. It gains the reach or the deadly (d8) trait.
Monstrous Unarmed Evolution 10
Prerequisite: Unarmed Evolution
If one of your Eidolon's unarmed attacks has the grapple trait, your Eidolon gains the Grab creature ability. If one of your Eidolon's unarmed attacks has the shove trait, your Eidolon gains the Push creature ability. If one of your Eidolon's unarmed attacks has the trip trait, your Eidolon gains the Knockdown creature ability.
|
|
I wouldn't be upset if Eidolons got their own take on AOO (see the Monk's Stand Still) but yeah, something like this.Combat Reflexes - (level 6) - The Eidolon gains the Attack of Opportunity Ability
Honestly I'd be down for a Reaction that allowed you to cast Reinforce Eidolon as a response to being hit, or maybe a late-level (14/16) option that allowed you to Transpose in response to an Attack to protect the Summoner by forcing the opponent to either chase the Summoner or settle with hitting the sturdier Eidolon. (Interpose?)
Maybe the AoO could be like Stand Still but only trigger if the movement would move the target closer to the Summoner than when they started, sortof a "Your fight is with ME!" kind of reaction? Maybe the tradeoff for the harsher restriction would be both interrupting the movement and auto-immobilizing the opponent until the end of their turn as a way to ensure attacks are then forced to target the Eidolon?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
BENEVOLENT ARRIVAL 4th Level (Angel only?)
When you manifest your eidolon, there is burst of positive energy. If the next action you take is to Manifest your Eidolon,the summoned eidolon appears in an explosion of positive energy. You heal 3d8 HP and any living creature adjacent heal 1d8. Undead and other negative based creatures take 1d8 positive damage.
JUXTAPOSITION 4th Level
You and your Eidolon switch positions. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You cannot use this ability again for 1 hour.
|
|
BENEVOLENT ARRIVAL 4th Level (Angel only?)
When you manifest your eidolon, there is burst of positive energy. If the next action you take is to Manifest your Eidolon,the summoned eidolon appears in an explosion of positive energy. You heal 3d8 HP and any living creature adjacent heal 1d8. Undead and other negative based creatures take 1d8 positive damage.JUXTAPOSITION 4th Level
You and your Eidolon switch positions. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You cannot use this ability again for 1 hour.
Juxtaposition is basically the same as Transpose (Lv 10 Playtest Feat) but with a duration, idk if its necessary but maybe the case could be made for putting Transpose at an earlier level.
Benevolent Arrival sounds like a cool idea, maybe it could do Negative healing if there's the Evil trait on the Eidolon to make it work for the likely Demon/Devil Eidolons. It could also probably scale similar yo how Ostentatious Arrival does rather than just being a static healing amount, but cool idea.
This came up elsewhere, but I'm adding it here for collation purposes. If we use the Alchemist's Perpetual Breadth feat as the precedent...
Esoteric Evolution 8
Choose a 1st level Eidolon ability from a different eidolon type. Your eidolon gains that feature.
Greater Esoteric Evolution 14
Prerequisite: Esoteric Evolution
Your eidolon gains the 7th level ability of the eidolon type you selected with Esoteric Evolution.
This enables you to get a lot of abilities (including breath weapons and charge attacks) into the pool without them needing to be their own feats, and helps with the hybrid ideas that people would like to have access to.
This came up elsewhere, but I'm adding it here for collation purposes. If we use the Alchemist's Perpetual Breadth feat as the precedent...
Esoteric Evolution 8
Choose a 1st level Eidolon ability from a different eidolon type. Your eidolon gains that feature.Greater Esoteric Evolution 14
Prerequisite: Esoteric Evolution
Your eidolon gains the 7th level ability of the eidolon type you selected with Esoteric Evolution.This enables you to get a lot of abilities (including breath weapons and charge attacks) into the pool without them needing to be their own feats, and helps with the hybrid ideas that people would like to have access to.
Is there a need to link these options?
If there's no balance concern, having these be unlinked would be a gateway for some of the more 'out there' permutations, like a Demon with aspects of both a Dragon and an Abberation.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
They could certainly be unlinked. Though there might be some odd outcomes if certain 7th level abilities reference a 1st level ability.
Without seeing what all of the final abilities are like, for safety I'd prevent people from taking them more than once, and thus we explicitly exclude the "you can take this more than once" clause.
Twin Headed (16th)
Your eidolon grows another head and because more eyes are better increase its perception Proficiency to legendary also once every ten minutes you can reroll a save against a mental effect
I like this. If a full blown Proficiency bump is seen as too good or they don't want to decouple this proficiency from the Summoner, you coule make it a +3 circumstance bonus and have essentially the same boost in most situations (circumstance because the head is assisting itself, and +3 because thats the bonus at master at this level...)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Twin Headed (16th)
Your eidolon grows another head and because more eyes are better increase its perception Proficiency to legendary also once every ten minutes you can reroll a save against a mental effect
There's a few things about this that make this not work.
Firstly, we REALLY want to decouple mechanics from appearance with evolutions. As a Summoner, there's very few situations where I would want my eidolon to grow an extra head. Suggest it as a flavour option, sure, but the naming here is egregious.
Secondly, we're not even at Master in Perception, and the game never jumps stages.
That said, there's ways to make this work.
Insightful Evolution 14
Though refinement of its mind and senses, the growth of a new head, or some other development, your eidolon's ability to notice threats becomes greater.
Your eidolon gains Master proficiency in Perception. Once every ten minutes, as a reaction your eidolon can reroll a saving throw against a mental effect.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Though on the whole, straight proficiency increases as evolutions are something I'm leery of.
Perception is probably okay, and boosting ONE save would be fine, but anything more than that is getting too close to the 'strictly better' improvements we're trying to avoid this edition.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also, while we're on the 'divorce mechanics from flavour as much as possible' thing, it occurred to me that Breath Weapon could and should be renamed if it becomes a general evolution option.
Energy Emanation 6 (two actions)
When you gain this feat, choose one of acid, bludgeoning, cold, electricity, fire, piercing, poison, slashing, or sonic, and either a 30 foot cone or a 60 foot line. Either as a breath weapon, a powered shot, a psychic power, or through some other mechanism, you can discharge your power.
You can have each creature in the area make a basic Reflex saving throw or take 4d6 damage. After you use this ability, you can't use it again for 1d4 rounds.
At 7th level, and each odd level thereafter, increase the damage dealt by 1d6.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
(Collated a bunch of ideas, put them next to the current options, and sorted to what are probably appropriate levels)
1st level
Leaping Evolution?
Sensory Evolution
Versatile Elemental Strikes Evolution?
2nd level
Elemental Resistance Evolution?
Magical Evolution
Tracking Evolution?
4th level
Alacritous Evolution
Amphibious Evolution
Backstabbing Evolution?
Raging Evolution?
Unarmed Evolution
6th level
Burrowing Evolution?
Climbing Evolution
Energy Emanation Evolution?
Frightening Presence Evolution?
Hulking Evolution
Summoner Shield Evolution
8th level
Ancestral Affinity Evolution?
Esoteric Evolution?
Flickering Evolution
Greater Unarmed Evolution?
Greater Magical Evolution
Ranged Evolution
10th level
Debilitating Evolution?
Reaction Attack Evolution?
Monstrous Unarmed Evolution?
12th level
Pouncing Evolution?
Shrouded Evolution?
Thrashing Evolution?
14th level
Constantly-adapting Evolution?
Greater Esoteric Evolution?
Resilient Evolution
Spellguard Evolution
Towering Evolution
16th level
Supersensory Evolution?
Winged Evolution
18th level
Elemental Immunity Evolution?
Eviscerating Evolution?
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks for collating!
I'd love to see some more "out there" kinds of potential evolutions. Entangling webs or vines, parasitic spores, eye beams, causing miniature volcanos under foes (actually on second thought, those last two could be covered by something like Energy Emanation Evolution but I wanted to leave them in for completeness), etc. Things that really sell the idea that this being you've bonded with is something unique.
I realize those may be too powerful for player characters, but I wanted to to vocalize the desire.
|
I too would love to see some weird and crazy evolutions that show off the otherworldly aspects of their being. Perhaps something like condition spreading.
Distortion
2 actions
Sustain for up to 1 minute
Your Eidolon taps into the forces of another plane which warp the perception of time for it and those around it. The Eidolon becomes Slowed 1 without an option for a save. In doing so, it emanates an aura of distortion within a 5 foot burst centered on the Eidolon. Those within the burst make a Will Save.
Critical Success: Unaffected
Success: Sickened 1 until the start of your next turn
Failure: Slowed 1
Critical Failure: Slowed 2
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ranged Attack can been pretty much any ranged attack including eyes Beams, bad breath and spit attacks.
But I agree with you and disagree with the gentlemandm that their should be weird and wonderful evolutions Feats like multiple heads, hazardess terrain creation (leaking lava) ETC.
Heres another idea for an eidolon evolution:
Natural Weapon - Level 8 Your eidolon can grow/project/summon a simulacrum of a melee martial weapon. Choose a common martial weapon and one of your natural attacks. That unarmed attack gains all the traits (apart from thrown) and appearance of martial weapon you have selected.
You can have weird and wonderful abilities... just please not at the requirement of also having weird biology.
Natural Weapon is... interesting. Certainly the kind of feat that works well with flexible flavour. While some people do enjoy their eidolons being increasingly weird with extra limbs and heads, others of us want our eidolons to have a more socially acceptable appearance.
If my angel eidolon was forced to grow an extra head to access a certain ability, I wouldn't take that ability, and would be disappointed for being locked out of it.
If that same ability included 'your eidolon becomes increasingly perceptive, either through enhanced senses, an aura of magical detection, new sensory organs, or even an entire extra head' as the flavour explanation, yeah, I'd be stoked.
It cuts both ways. We shouldn't need feats to justify biological appearance, nor should feats force a particular appearance. We're leaving that behind in 1st Edition.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not trying to prevent people getting their body horror.
At some point, I'll probably come up with some horrific hybrid abomination soulbound to an edgelord and have a blast with it.
But at the same time, the ability to have a humanoid, aesthetically pleasing, non-horrifying eidolon is just as important to many people.
No option should have the direct implication that one must render their eidolon grotesque to gain an ability. Just as no option should deny the possibility of body horror flavouring.
Such a system enables as many different players and their different visions to find exactly what they want from their eidolon.
Not sure about this one, but putting it down for consideration.
Given that the Summoner can get better Reflex/Perception via a General Feat, having the potential to get a sturdier Eidolon might be feasible.
Juggernaut Evolution 16
Choose one:
- if your eidolon's Reflex save proficiency is Expert, it increases to Master.
- if your eidolon's Fortitude save proficiency is Master, it increases to Legendary.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Probably more of a teamwork themed feat than an evolution, or might even be a metamagic, but:
Spell Channel 2
When you cast a Summoner spell, you may have that spell originate from your eidolon rather than yourself.
I like decoupling appearance from effect when it comes to evolutions. A friend of mine had significant difficulty in first edition because they really wanted a spider eidolon, but you simply couldn’t afford enough legs at low level. When we’re creating a creature that you’re character may have literally dreamed into existence it seems silly to say you can’t have vistigial legs that don’t provide a benefit because you don’t have enough points for them. And that’s whay linking does.
For my suggestions on evolutions.
Change the name for energy Emanation, say to energy burst. And it and the versatile energy evolutions should add the chosen damage type as a tag to your eidolon like breath weapon does. This is so you can use that tag for more abilities.
Destructive enimation 8
Prerequisite: eidolon has a damage type tag
Two actions
Your eidolon can emit a wave of destructive forces into all around them. Any creature in a square within 5 feet of them takes 4d6 damage of one of the types your eidolon is tagged with, basic save. At 12 and each 4 levels thereafter add 1d6 to the damage. At 10 and each 4 levels thereafter add 5 foot to the area. May not use this ability for 1d4 rounds.
Persistent damage 10
Prerequisite: the eidolon’s last action was to damage an enemy and that enemy is within reach.
One action
Your eidolon tears the flesh, injects poison, or sets the foe aflame. The enemy your eidolon damaged takes 2d6 persistent damage. This damage may be bleed or one your type your eidolon is tagged with, chosen when you take this feat.
Not strictly en evolution but a feat with similar effect.
Prescient coordination 4
An enemy is flat footed to yourself, your eidolon and your summoned creatures so long as it is within reach of at least two of them.
I like the idea of a benevolent arrival. But I’d rather the base feet get expanded so that it heals, does damage, or maybe something else depending on what you summon and it’s tags or spell. The feat now seems a little lack luster, and expanding its flexibility would help give summoners a reason to regularly summon creatures instead of saving spells for more traditional casting.
Basic flight: 6th level
Your eidolon gains limited flight, only usable in short bursts. Your eidolon gains a fly speed equal to half it's speed or 25 ft, whichever's less. If your eidolon ends this moment in the air, it falls as normal.bomb, lowish level flight that's not over powered. About the same power of a climb speed, and unlocked at the same level. Gives the feeling of flight to those who want it early, and true flight can still be unlocked at 16th level.
Note that all Eidolons have access to an actual Climb speed at level 5, via evolution surge, which can be described as limited flight allowing you to traverse vertical obstacles (up and down) already for a focus point.
There is also the climb speed evolution at the same level, that provides a permanent version of the same with the same ability to describe it as such.
This is less of a power level concern relative to your feat than it is a concern that it has an extremely narrow niche, and may qualify as a trap feat since it provides very little net benefit, and is largely redundant with other options at the same level.
Basic flight: 6th level
Your eidolon gains limited flight, only usable in short bursts. Your eidolon gains a fly speed equal to half it's speed or 25 ft, whichever's less. If your eidolon ends this moment in the air, it falls as normal.bomb, lowish level flight that's not over powered. About the same power of a climb speed, and unlocked at the same level. Gives the feeling of flight to those who want it early, and true flight can still be unlocked at 16th level.
As of 9 all eidolons can fly for a limited time via the focus spell. I don’t think a significantly more restrictive version of flight is needed at a slightly lower level. And as noted elsewhere of it weren’t as restrictive as what you propose it would climb into unbalanced territory at these levels. Perhaps a glide evolution instead? I can’t look right now to see what if any standard gliding rules there are so I’ll just leave something as a placeholder/suggestion.
Glide 6
Single action
Must be airborne.
Move your eidolon in the air up to its speed, minimum 10’, reducing its altitude by 5’ for each 10’ moved. If the eidolon does not take this action once a turn while airborne it falls to the ground at normal speed. Your eidolon doesn’t take fall damage.