Ranged Attack can been pretty much any ranged attack including eyes Beams, bad breath and spit attacks.
But I agree with you and disagree with the gentlemandm that their should be weird and wonderful evolutions Feats like multiple heads, hazardess terrain creation (leaking lava) ETC.
Heres another idea for an eidolon evolution:
Natural Weapon - Level 8 Your eidolon can grow/project/summon a simulacrum of a melee martial weapon. Choose a common martial weapon and one of your natural attacks. That unarmed attack gains all the traits (apart from thrown) and appearance of martial weapon you have selected.
You can have weird and wonderful abilities... just please not at the requirement of also having weird biology.
Natural Weapon is... interesting. Certainly the kind of feat that works well with flexible flavour. While some people do enjoy their eidolons being increasingly weird with extra limbs and heads, others of us want our eidolons to have a more socially acceptable appearance.
If my angel eidolon was forced to grow an extra head to access a certain ability, I wouldn't take that ability, and would be disappointed for being locked out of it.
If that same ability included 'your eidolon becomes increasingly perceptive, either through enhanced senses, an aura of magical detection, new sensory organs, or even an entire extra head' as the flavour explanation, yeah, I'd be stoked.
It cuts both ways. We shouldn't need feats to justify biological appearance, nor should feats force a particular appearance. We're leaving that behind in 1st Edition.
Oh no, I totally agree with you, I don't want to have require some kind of horrible physiology to get access to the weird and unique. I personally love that right now the Eidolon can be described essentially however a player wants without having to spend feats on things like legs.
I wouldn't mind a feat that increased damage one die category as your eidolon gets larger as well. IE: Large deals 1d10 and 1d6; Huge deals 1d12 and 1d8. As they really are front line fighters with no real shield option it would be cool if there were some feats for increasing the damage dice.
The tricky thing here is that these kinds of math fixers get a little too much into 'strictly better' territory.
Seeing the eidolon's unarmed attacks naturally scale in size at particular levels (perhaps as part of Weapon Specialization/GWS) would be nice.
I really want a feat that says, "pick a dedication. Treat that dedication or archetype and all feats ascribed to that dedication or archetype as evolution feats. Your Eidolon has that dedication or archetype."
There's a few things that are awkward with this (stuff like Mauler or Duelist needs weapons, stuff like Sentinel or Bastion doesn't work at all), but in general this seems like a really versatile and useful feat.
Adding in the calirification that the eidolon needs to meet the proficiency and other qualifications (using the summoner's level as it's own) first would probably help mitigate the eidolon getting some archetypes that wouldn't work with the class well.
And also make sure that it doesn't result in the Summoner getting two Archetypes at once by checking the Summoner for prerequisites as well.
It's awkward because a lot of stuff like Archer or Mauler doesn't have any proficiency prerequisites, and would grant proficiency in weapons to the eidolon, even though it couldn't use them.
There'd need to be a lot of safety valves applied, as well as reminders that even with proficiency eidolons can't use items.
Still an idea worth considering, though.
Well weapons could be used by Eidolons in pf1. Would it be broken to allow it in pf2?And also make sure that it doesn't result in the Summoner getting two Archetypes at once by checking the Summoner for prerequisites as well.
It's awkward because a lot of stuff like Archer or Mauler doesn't have any proficiency prerequisites, and would grant proficiency in weapons to the eidolon, even though it couldn't use them.
There'd need to be a lot of safety valves applied, as well as reminders that even with proficiency eidolons can't use items.
Still an idea worth considering, though.
Yes - any Eidolon with a weapon is more effective than one without by a significant margin. Weapons simply have bigger dies AND more traits.
That makes such an option "strictly better" and a false choice because other options aren't as good - if you want to keep up, you must take it.
The current Natural Weapon evolution Evolution is pretty tame and doesn't introduce any options that are "must have", presumably for this reason.
Its not about weapons being unreasonable, or broken compared to the party - its about it breaking the progression of the class and creating bad choices.
Then shouldnt we somehow improve the Eidolons natural attacks before lvl 8 with those traits? Whats so scary about natural attacks getting similar weapon traits?
You remember I'm the guy that suggested boost eidolon be allowed to grant some weapon traits right? :)
I'm not against it, I just want it to be done with meaningful restrictions and preferably in a way that works with and synergies with current options that could be more dynamic - or in a way that is universally open and available.
I dont know what the best solution is, but I dont think its "let eidolons use weapons".
So my current vote is "make it temporary and action intensive, to help that ability that everyone finds boring".
Adding an extra weapon trait to base class progression would also be valid, as it is open to everyone and costs no "elective" resources that might create an "alpha" choice.
Yes! Going with something that’s very close to the leshy glide should be perfect. Thank you.
I think adding qualities through boost would work. I’d also like to see a variety of feats that add weapon traits to the attacks. With a kicker, to make it worth a full feat or make up for not getting part of the functionality for things like trip.
Hamstring 1
Add the trip weapon quality to your eidolon’s natural attacks, though it cannot avoid being tripped by dropping anything. Against prone foes your eidolon gains +1 damage per weapon damage die.
(The advantage of trip here is getting to gain item bonuses to the attempt.)
Wide blows 1
Add the sweep weapon trait to your eidolon’s natural attacks. When your eidolon is flanked add +2 damage to attacks against enemies flanking it.
Defensive stance 1
Add the parry weapon trait to your eidolon’s natural attacks. If your eidolon takes the action to guard itself with this trait it can select one enemy who cannot be considered for flanking purposes.
Some things like reach of course are too good not to be higher level and perhaps by themselves. But this avenue alone could yield a dozen plus new feats that would each let an eidolon feel more unique during a fight. Which is something they’re currently a bit lacking in from my perspective.
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Manbearscientist, I see your option 4 (or something like it) as the most likely, given that it allows for abilities to be at least curated before theyre made available and avoids absolutely all of the really tricky and weird complications.
I'd desperately love for #5 to be a thing.
That's a very nice list! I like #3 best but I could see it getting a little... wordy however. I think #4 is probably the safest option.
The only problem with #4 is new archetypes that become available that would be "acceptable" for an eidolon to have.
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The only problem with #4 is new archetypes that become available that would be "acceptable" for an eidolon to have.
Thats why I'd predict you end up with it being more than one feat.
Ferocious Evolution = Rage
Hunter Evolution = Hunt Prey
Inquisitive Evolution = Multiclass version of studied strike
Precise Strikes Evolution = Multiclass Sneak attack
Etc.
And then when Summoner gets new feats in future supplements alongside new classes or archetypes, they'd reflect new options.
While one feat with expansive options would be amazing and flexible and do all sorts of heavy lifting, i have my doubts about its practicality.
I totally challenge Mark and Paizo to prove me wrong there ;)
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That's a very nice list! I like #3 best but I could see it getting a little... wordy however. I think #4 is probably the safest option.
I think if the archetyping is considered at all it'll come down to how much they value the page count. #2 means they don't have to reprint anything but #4 means they avoid any possible problems.
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Elaborating on an idea I posted in another thread on how to change Boost Eidolon to be more interesting, and how later feats could play off of that.
This post made me put some thought into ways that Boost Eidolon's damage mechanic could be adjusted to still be an action cost while being more interesting, and I think I might have thought of one. Its based on the idea of Rogue's action cost being tied to Movement, and could lead to the creation of some related effects down the line.
**Project Presence
Free Action, Somatic
Summoner, Eidolon, Flourish
Range 100'
Duration Until the end of the round.You pull the tether comnecting you to your Eidolon taut, focusing a burst of energy down the line. Draw a straight line of up to the Range of this spell, starting from your summoner and passing through your eidolon, and select one target the line passes through. Your Eidolon deals 2[maybe more? Now that its position-based?] additional damage with its attacks against the designated target per weapon damage die.
This would allow for the action economy to be shifted to Summoner or Eidolon movement, similar to Rogue Flanking, and creates an extra interaction between the 2 character pair that is wholly unique at this point in the game. In addition, putting more of the emphasis on the Tether aspect could lead to feat suggestions down the line that could manifest the Tether for more combat options.
**Tether Trip (Lv 2/4/6); Focus Cantrip
Attack, Tandem, Summoner, Eidolon, Evocation1A or React, Somatic
Range 100'
Trigger: An enemy has moved into a square directly between you and your Eidolon's current position.
You quickly manifest your Eidolon's tether as a physical object, yanking it taut to catch your enemies off-guard. Draw a straight line from yourself to your Eidolon, and target 1 enemy the line touches. If this is being used as a Reaction, the triggering enemy is the target. Make either a Spell Attack Roll, or make an check using your Eidolon's Athletics skill, comparing the result to the target's Reflex DC.
Critical Success: The target is moved 5' in a direction of your choosing, falling prone at its destination.
Success: The target falls prone in its current square.
Failure: If the target was moving when they triggered this effect, the action is disrupted and lost.
Critical Failure: No result.
Heighten (6): You may select a second target between you and your Eidolon to be affected. Increase the distance the target is moved on a Critical Success to 10'.
Heighten (9): You may select a third target between you and your Eidolon to be affected. Increase the distance the target is moved on a Critical Success to 15'.
**Tether Snare (Lv 10) Focus Spell.
Evocation, Summoner, Tandem, Eidolon
2 Actions
Range: 100'
Area: 20' Burst.
You channel a surge of vigor into your Eidolon as you physically manifest your tether in an attempt to ensnare your opponents. Place a 20'burst anywhere in the Spell's range, including your Eidolon in its Area. Every creature in the area, except for your Eidolon, must make a Reflex save as your Eidolon attempts to wrap its tether around them. After the saves have been made, place your Eidolon anywhere within spell's Area.
Critical Failure: Your opponent is restrained until the end of your next turn, unless your Eidolon un-manifests for any reason.
Failure: Your opponent is grabbed until the end of your next turn, unless your Eidolon un-manifests for any reason.
Success: Your opponent is Flat-Footed until the end of this turn.
because why not Astral Chain?
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Since (as far as I know) there is no general requirement to have line of sight or line of effect between summoner and eidolon, you may want to specify that the Tether spells do require such a line of effect to work.
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Since (as far as I know) there is no general requirement to have line of sight or line of effect between summoner and eidolon, you may want to specify that the Tether spells do require such a line of effect to work.
Afaik, the Tether does not require LoS or LoE, but Spells typically do. So basically the Tether works fine through walls but any of the spells that use the Tether require LoE by virtue of being Spells. If its not in the default spell rules then the clarification can be added into the spells' body text though, sure.
Here's a feat that gives somewhat of a bone to those that dislike the linked HP:
Sacrificial Eidolon (Reaction) Level 1
Summoner
Trigger - Your Eidolon would take damage that would reduce your shared Hit Points to 0.
You demanifest the Eidolon, and avoid taking damage. This does not prevent damage that would affect both you and Eidolon. The next time you manifest the Eidolon, you take damage equal to half your hit points, rounded up.
Isn't the damage part essentially a non-cost, since you can suffer the damage in safety and just heal it?
Especially so since it seems to read that it would deal less damage if youre already low on hitpoints?
If you want to introduce a feat like that, the penalty should be that you are unable to re-manifest your eidolon until after your next daily prep -- or maybe that doing so costs a focus point or spell slot and has a limited duration.
Here's a feat that gives somewhat of a bone to those that dislike the linked HP:
Sacrificial Eidolon (Reaction) Level 1
Summoner
Trigger - Your Eidolon would take damage that would reduce your shared Hit Points to 0.
You demanifest the Eidolon, and avoid taking damage. This does not prevent damage that would affect both you and Eidolon. The next time you manifest the Eidolon, you take damage equal to half your hit points, rounded up.Isn't the damage part essentially a non-cost, since you can suffer the damage in safety and just heal it?
Especially so since it seems to read that it would deal less damage if youre already low on hitpoints?
It is essentially flavor-text, yes. The action cost of resummoning the Eidolon is the main penalty preventing this from being used often in combat. Out of combat, it does force you to use more time healing up. However, that isn't too different from sending your Eidolon into traps and healing up from 0 afterwords.
The damage could be reworded to "you take damage equal to half your maximum Hit Pionts, rounded up" if necessary to prevent it from being better at low Hit Points.
I suppose at that point I'd be more concerned about the effect scaling infinitely regardless of the incoming damage. What would you think of something more limited, maybe like this -
Sever Connection - Summoner 1 (or as appropriate)
Reaction
Trigger - Your Eidolon would take damage from an enemy.
You cut off your link to your eidolon to limit the damage you suffer through the link. Ignore the results of your eidolons saving throw against the triggering damage, and reduce the damage by 5 points (applied like shield resistance, to the final net damage). Increase the damage reduction by 5 at level 5, and every four levels afterwards.
The above scales like the "block" effect of the Shield Cantrip, with the added benefit of giving you an out if your Eidolon whiffs a save against an AOE that you saved on. But it also doesn't let you just straight ignore a boss crit for free, since that crit could have dropped your eidolon regardless.
I considered a frequency or focus point cost, but I decided against it.
The oracle showed that being locked out class features for an adventuring day (or being knocked unconscious) is too heavy a penalty for a class.
A focus point cost would effectively have the same impact as losing life, but arguably would be even less of a time sink.
And functionally, this 'feature' already exists in that an Eidolon demanifests at zero and a Summoner can be treated by allies out of combat and re-manifest the Eidolon. So the out of combat cheese is already a part of the system, enough so that a feat tax probably doesn't need to have a timing restriction when the base behavior doesn't have one.
Something like that should have a cost though. Getting locked out of your eidolon might be too much but focus points are in the right area.
The damage as written is too little since you’ll never knock yourself out, and with the arrival abilities summoning your eidolon, with burst of damage and then Desummoning it once an enemy has successfully attacked waisting at least one action isn’t a bad move so long as you keep yourself safe. Even if you spend most of the fight at 1 HP doing it.
Even if you boost the damage then it’s either always worth it because your group will effortlessly heal up through medicine because you’re not worried about time. Thus there is no cost to the feat. Or it’s never worth it because your group can’t take the time to patch you up for an extra 50% of your HP when they could just patch you up from unconscious. Thus invalidating the feat.
I wouldn’t be opposed to an ability like this, in fact the option of one could be vital for many players. But it should be a focus spell or something else, perhaps with a very low heal attached. Focus points are a simple currency and one well used. You’re only going to lock yourself out of it that way if you’ve chosen to use your points for other things that you believe to have been more valuable. It’s a good way to keep limited use while still getting to keep going with the day.
Something like that should have a cost though. Getting locked out of your eidolon might be too much but focus points are in the right area.
The damage as written is too little since you’ll never knock yourself out, and with the arrival abilities summoning your eidolon, with burst of damage and then Desummoning it once an enemy has successfully attacked waisting at least one action isn’t a bad move so long as you keep yourself safe. Even if you spend most of the fight at 1 HP doing it.
Even if you boost the damage then it’s either always worth it because your group will effortlessly heal up through medicine because you’re not worried about time. Thus there is no cost to the feat. Or it’s never worth it because your group can’t take the time to patch you up for an extra 50% of your HP when they could just patch you up from unconscious. Thus invalidating the feat.
I wouldn’t be opposed to an ability like this, in fact the option of one could be vital for many players. But it should be a focus spell or something else, perhaps with a very low heal attached. Focus points are a simple currency and one well used. You’re only going to lock yourself out of it that way if you’ve chosen to use your points for other things that you believe to have been more valuable. It’s a good way to...
My musings on the idea was that a focus point cost instead of hit points was a lesser cost, not a greater one. It could be in addition to the ability, but I wouldn't do it instead.
This is because it takes just 10 minutes to recover focus. It takes substantially longer to heal back up to full health with Treat Wounds. At level 7, using this ability with a focus point cost would allow a Summoner to return to full efficiency in 10 minutes. With a half life clause, a Summoner with Assurance (Medicine) and Expert proficiency would return to life in around 2 to 5 uses of Treat Wounds (at best, 10 minutes a piece, at worst 1 hour).
This is assuming Focus Points are paid to...
Whether or not HP is a cost outside of combat is something with enormous table variation. There have been a lot of threads about why it is or isn’t. The thing with focus spells is while you them back after ten minutes, something you can probably presume to get between any fights, but you’re only recovering 1 at a time. So in an average day you could use evolution surge, or this ability. And once per day you could do both, or summon your eidolon mid fight and use this a second time. By the time you can recover more points you’ll have more spells to use them on. All of that doesn’t vary much between tables, so it’s a more balanced cost.
So the cost of a focus point isn’t ten minutes, it’s not doing something else with that focus point. What other options you have stay fairly flat across tables and levels from a value standpoint. While the cost of health outside of combat is either huge or irrelevant depending on your group and situation.
I’m hoping to see some webbing type option back.
What about an ability to lay traps? Say
Plant trap 6
Prerequisite: damage tag or the web evolution
AAA
Your eidolon creates a trap at a chosen point within reach. The DC to perceive and and saves are equal to your class DC. If your eidolon has a damage tag the trap deals 3d4 damage of the same type as a chosen tag, basic reflex save. Increase damage by 1d4 for each to levels after 6. If your eidolon has the web evolution then they make a reflex save crit success no effect, success clumsy 1 1 round, failure clumsy 1 & immobilized 1 round, crit failure clumsy 2 & immobilized 2 rounds. If your eidolon meets both qualifications a trap may do both and the same save is used for both effects. An eidolon may not have more than one trap active at a time and all active traps disperse.
I’m going to need a giant trap door spider for my summoner poisoner.
If it hasn't been suggested yet, I'd like to see a higher level feat or option that would give the phantom some form of incorporeality. Not straight incorporeal (cuz that could be broken) unless very limited duration but something to see through doors or something cool like that. Probably having flickering evolution as a prereq.
If it hasn't been suggested yet, I'd like to see a higher level feat or option that would give the phantom some form of incorporeality. Not straight incorporeal (cuz that could be broken) unless very limited duration but something to see through doors or something cool like that. Probably having flickering evolution as a prereq.
That's basically what Flickering is.
Disintergration Ray (level 16)
Prerequisite — abberant or Construct Eidolon & Ranged AttackYour ranged attack can now do force damage gains the deadly d10 trait and a creature it reduced to 0 HP is reduced to fine powder; only its gear remains.
Cute, but almost certainly too specific.
An evolution feat for deadly (that gives your eidolon's attacks the death trait) is an option.
Not sure if its been called out yet, but if there are any ideas for an Improved Ranged Evolution feat, I'd be totally down to spend a second Evolution feat to add Str or some other ability modifier to the damage.
I'm definitely putting in my final survey that the Eidolon could use both more and earlier ranged support, including an option for a propulsive or thrown traited attack.
Vengeful Evolution 12 (reaction)
Trigger: Your eidolon takes damage from a creature within melee reach
Your eidolon strikes the triggering creature.