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The big difference between the Barbarian and the Magus as it currently stands is that the Barbarian gets their bonus power automatically applied.
If they hit something, they get Rage damage.
For the Magus, the issue lies that in order to get their cool, special thing, not only do they need to hit with a weapon, but they also need to hit with a spell.
Having multiple points of failure to do your cool thing makes for an unreliable and potentially frustrating ability.
Inter dependent d20 rolls are generally more frustrating than fun. IMO.
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Inter dependent d20 rolls are generally more frustrating than fun. IMO.The big difference between the Barbarian and the Magus as it currently stands is that the Barbarian gets their bonus power automatically applied.
If they hit something, they get Rage damage.
For the Magus, the issue lies that in order to get their cool, special thing, not only do they need to hit with a weapon, but they also need to hit with a spell.
Having multiple points of failure to do your cool thing makes for an unreliable and potentially frustrating ability.
I agree with that. I remember that being a sticking point for playtest Investigator too, where you had to successfully roll Perception against the enemy's will to even get the chance to attempt a studied strike.
I think that if Striking Spell is to be changed, then the new version should try to avoid the double rolling.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes.
A second roll for saves is fair. It's up to the target to roll it and it has an effect even on a success.
But make SpellStrike just use the result of the Strike, it takes a lot of ressources already to use: 2 to 3 actions (depending if it still works the same or it replaces the somatic component of a spell), double MAP after the Strike AND a spell slot. Which, for now, are very limited.
Yes you can do it with cantrips, but cantrips, while useful, clearly are not what this should be balanced around. If you balance it around cantrips not outdamaging two strikes, you end up making actual spells hard to use with it.
The barbarian’s rage damage is not always automatic. It costs an action to be set up and it can be lost in combat, just by knocking the barbarian out 1 time. In our party the barbarian had to switch from a two handed weapon to a sword and shield, and receive magical healing at least every other action to keep him on his feet. In big boss combats he was often KO’d by round 2 or 3 because he would charge into Melee alone rather than wait for back up.
He has been the only PC to die in our Age of Ashes Campaign upto level 7.
I am sure that the developers are considering many options and have some ideas for mitigating some of folks accuracy concerns.
Personally, I think making it all work with one roll is going to make crit fishing and accuracy boosting even more important, not less. It is likely to end up looking more like eldritch archer, taking 3 actions as one activity, and leaving the magus with even less flexibility with the action economy. Making it where you crit with the spell 100% of the time you crit with the weapon attack will only increase how much you have to factor in the damage potential of your top spell slot damage spell into the magi’s DPR.
Making it work with one roll will make crit fishing more powerful, yes.
But less mandatory/necessary.
It'll make the Magus stronger against mooks, and more reliable against bosses.
For the Magus, the issue lies that in order to get their cool, special thing, not only do they need to hit with a weapon, but they also need to hit with a spell.
But you don’t, though. Against higher AC targets, you can use save-for-half spells and almost always get a small damage boost, with a chance to land a larger one.
I'd rather put out damage steadily and consistently and feel like I'm properly contributing.
See, when you say steady and consistent, I hear same-y and boring. Without a tactical element to exploit, I fear the magus’ round will devolve into stand still and full attack each turn. That’s a mindset I’d rather leave in first edition.
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See, when you say steady and consistent, I hear same-y and boring. Without a tactical element to exploit, I fear the magus’ round will devolve into stand still and full attack each turn. That’s a mindset I’d rather leave in first edition.
I'd rather put out damage steadily and consistently and feel like I'm properly contributing.
Who actually wants to frustrated by their core mechanic bc they can't reliably do what they're supposed to do? It's doesn't feel satisfying to me. It feels like punishment for playing the class I wanna play
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See, when you say steady and consistent, I hear same-y and boring. Without a tactical element to exploit, I fear the magus’ round will devolve into stand still and full attack each turn. That’s a mindset I’d rather leave in first edition.
I'd rather put out damage steadily and consistently and feel like I'm properly contributing.
thats basically what it is currently, unless you use slide casting where you get one move action.
Making it work with one roll will make crit fishing more powerful, yes.
But less mandatory/necessary.It'll make the Magus stronger against mooks, and more reliable against bosses.
It will make casters casting single target damage spells into an absolute joke, unless it became a special 3 action activity that included the attack roll and was given the fortune trait so it could never stack with truestrike. If you get to hold on to the spell and attack the next round with any strike action (one of the more interesting flex features of the ability, and why I want more feats in the vein of spell swipe, which is absolutely awesome with the current version of striking spell), then combining that all into one roll becomes just too powerful a thing to stack on full martial proficiency with item bonuses. It is power attack on mega steroids that includes the ability to tag on any damage type you want.
Personally, I think the ability to land the strike with any activity that includes a weapon strike is a pretty interesting option that I would rather not lose out on by having the whole thing collapsed into a single activity like eldritch archer.
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Making it work with one roll will make crit fishing more powerful, yes.
But less mandatory/necessary.It'll make the Magus stronger against mooks, and more reliable against bosses.
It will make casters casting single target damage spells into an absolute joke, unless it became a special 3 action activity that included the attack roll and was given the fortune trait so it could never stack with truestrike. If you get to hold on to the spell and attack the next round with any strike action (one of the more interesting flex features of the ability, and why I want more feats in the vein of spell swipe, which is absolutely awesome with the current version of striking spell), then combining that all into one roll becomes just too powerful a thing to stack on full martial proficiency with item bonuses. It is power attack on mega steroids that includes the ability to tag on any damage type you want.
Personally, I think the ability to land the strike with any activity that includes a weapon strike is a pretty interesting option that I would rather not lose out on by having the whole thing collapsed into a single activity like eldritch archer.
the one consistent thing ive seen from 2e since its creation, is true strike being a binary combat solvent.
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Personally, I think the ability to land the strike with any activity that includes a weapon strike is a pretty interesting option that I would rather not lose out on by having the whole thing collapsed into a single activity like eldritch archer.
Right now a lot of those options mean doing it multiturn, which is highly speculative on it working. Enemy movement, death, defensing actions, ect make it had to pull off. Having it consistently go off trumps interesting to me.
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If Spellstrike risks being too powerful because of True Strike abuses, make it have the fortune trait and be done with it. True strike would still be useful to use, say, Bespell Weapon to get mental damage and focus on simpler melee attacks, but won't make crazy high spikes of damage.
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For the Magus, the issue lies that in order to get their cool, special thing, not only do they need to hit with a weapon, but they also need to hit with a spell.But you don’t, though. Against higher AC targets, you can use save-for-half spells and almost always get a small damage boost, with a chance to land a larger one.
But with a save spell, that’s not bonus damage. That’s the same damage you would have gotten just casting the spell. The bonus damage only comes in when a crit on the attack actually improves the success of the spell. Otherwise it’s the same damage you would have done casting the save spell and attacking.
He doesn't get WEAPON critical? I didn't catch that. "Changes my ancestry feats around"
Magus doesn't get the Critical Specialization effects though, so he's not as good as other martials at basic attacks. A fairly minor point, but still.
Plus every martial has a free power up for their basic attacks. Sneak Attack, high accuracy, Rage, Hunter's Edge etc. Magus gets none of that.
I am pretty sure, "set off a spell that is shifted a tier of success in your favor" is the most powerful crit specialization in the game.
Also the damage boost of the weapon attack for the magus is mostly built into feats.
Your potency focus power is a +1 accuracy at level over every martial other than a fighter, so at level 1 you are actually ahead of accuracy on all the other non-fighter martials. Then you start getting feats like bespell weapon, then you get Energize strikes, then you get runic impressions (which you will be using in place of magus potency most of the time, once you get it. This puts them really really close to regular martial characters in terms of bonus damage. Against foes with one or more weaknesses, the magus can pretty much outpace the alchemist even without using spell slots.
Then the magus can either self buff with spell slots from spell levels that keep up with full casters or nova with damage spells. I have had more fun playtesting several different builds and levels of this magus than I have had playing a fighter or a cleric in my regular games. Accuracy and damage on the magus is much less an issue than their durability.
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Magus doesn't get the Critical Specialization effects though, so he's not as good as other martials at basic attacks. A fairly minor point, but still.
Plus every martial has a free power up for their basic attacks. Sneak Attack, high accuracy, Rage, Hunter's Edge etc. Magus gets none of that.I am pretty sure, "set off a spell that is shifted a tier of success in your favor" is the most powerful crit specialization in the game.
Also the damage boost of the weapon attack for the magus is mostly built into feats.
Your potency focus power is a +1 accuracy at level over every martial other than a fighter, so at level 1 you are actually ahead of accuracy on all the other non-fighter martials. Then you start getting feats like bespell weapon, then you get Energize strikes, then you get runic impressions (which you will be using in place of magus potency most of the time, once you get it. This puts them really really close to regular martial characters in terms of bonus damage. Against foes with one or more weaknesses, the magus can pretty much outpace the alchemist even without using spell slots.
Then the magus can either self buff with spell slots from spell levels that keep up with full casters or nova with damage spells. I have had more fun playtesting several different builds and levels of this magus than I have had playing a fighter or a cleric in my regular games. Accuracy and damage on the magus is much less an issue than their durability.
lol, so wait, with multiple feats we can rival or even outpace THE ALCHEMIST?! wowza
self buffing? that thing that takes your turn outside of 1 action?
my fighter has been far more fun to play outside of the flavor of having a spirit sheathe in a scar in my hold scarred orcs neck.
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Throw me in the group that's cool with a 14/12 INT Magus as well.
It lowers your Cantrip damage and makes Spell Saves a lot lower by proxy. It also limits what spells you can learn.
I'm all for the Two-handed Magus being able to invest in Enlarge, Truestrike, and other Self-buffs and limiting their attack actions to Striking Spell only with Spell Attack Roll spells. That's a pretty curtailed style of Magus, but one I think a lot of people would enjoy (not me, but the old Shocking Grasp crowd probably).
After all, a Magus that doesn't dump INT is going to be able to grab AoE, Save Spells, better damage on Cantrips, etc.
If the Warpriest is allowed to get by with a 12 WIS (and be good mind you) then I don't see why the Magus can't go that way.
I'm all for the Class Paths/Feats encouraging INT further to accentuate it as a choice that has consequences but not ultimately impossible/bad.
Throw me in the group that's cool with a 14/12 INT Magus as well.
It lowers your Cantrip damage and makes Spell Saves a lot lower by proxy. It also limits what spells you can learn.
I'm all for the Two-handed Magus being able to invest in Enlarge, Truestrike, and other Self-buffs and limiting their attack actions to Striking Spell only with Spell Attack Roll spells. That's a pretty curtailed style of Magus, but one I think a lot of people would enjoy (not me, but the old Shocking Grasp crowd probably).
After all, a Magus that doesn't dump INT is going to be able to grab AoE, Save Spells, better damage on Cantrips, etc.
If the Warpriest is allowed to get by with a 12 WIS (and be good mind you) then I don't see why the Magus can't go that way.
I'm all for the Class Paths/Feats encouraging INT further to accentuate it as a choice that has consequences but not ultimately impossible/bad.
the way the current magus is, i have a hard time not doing
18str, 14dex, 16int, voluntary flaw, 10con,10wis,8cha, hold scarred orc to get to 20HP at level 1. and 18 AC in medium armor.
i thought a gnome magus would be fun, but definitely not with the STR flaw and the need to take voluntary flaw out the gate just to get to my optimal stat array.
lol, so wait, with multiple feats we can rival or even outpace THE ALCHEMIST?! wowzaself buffing? that thing that takes your turn outside of 1 action?
my fighter has been far more fun to play outside of the flavor of having a spirit sheathe in a scar in my hold scarred orcs neck.
When talking about single target damage, they way out pace the alchemist. They are just capable of flexibly targeting weaknesses for extra damage just as easily.
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When talking about single target damage, they way out pace the alchemist. They are just capable of flexibly targeting weaknesses for extra damage just as easily.
lol, so wait, with multiple feats we can rival or even outpace THE ALCHEMIST?! wowzaself buffing? that thing that takes your turn outside of 1 action?
my fighter has been far more fun to play outside of the flavor of having a spirit sheathe in a scar in my hold scarred orcs neck.
alchemist are terrible for damage, so its a bad benchmark imo.
alchemist are terrible for damage, so its a bad benchmark imo.When talking about single target damage, they way out pace the alchemist. They are just capable of flexibly targeting weaknesses for extra damage just as easily.
lol, so wait, with multiple feats we can rival or even outpace THE ALCHEMIST?! wowzaself buffing? that thing that takes your turn outside of 1 action?
my fighter has been far more fun to play outside of the flavor of having a spirit sheathe in a scar in my hold scarred orcs neck.
Depends. From what I understand Bomber with the Splash INT feat actually does some crazy DPR around level 9.
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Depends. From what I understand Bomber with the Splash INT feat actually does some crazy DPR around level 9.alchemist are terrible for damage, so its a bad benchmark imo.When talking about single target damage, they way out pace the alchemist. They are just capable of flexibly targeting weaknesses for extra damage just as easily.
lol, so wait, with multiple feats we can rival or even outpace THE ALCHEMIST?! wowzaself buffing? that thing that takes your turn outside of 1 action?
my fighter has been far more fun to play outside of the flavor of having a spirit sheathe in a scar in my hold scarred orcs neck.
yeah if you can hit a group, thats every full spell caster as well.
but also not the benchmark we are looking at.
Depends. From what I understand Bomber with the Splash INT feat actually does some crazy DPR around level 9.alchemist are terrible for damage, so its a bad benchmark imo.When talking about single target damage, they way out pace the alchemist. They are just capable of flexibly targeting weaknesses for extra damage just as easily.
lol, so wait, with multiple feats we can rival or even outpace THE ALCHEMIST?! wowzaself buffing? that thing that takes your turn outside of 1 action?
my fighter has been far more fun to play outside of the flavor of having a spirit sheathe in a scar in my hold scarred orcs neck.
yeah if you can hit a group, thats every full spell caster as well.
but also not the benchmark we are looking at.
You misunderstand, not with a group.
If you miss splash damage still applies, which means their strikes effectively work like a Spell Save in terms of having a "failure" effect of dealing your INT in splash damage.
If you add in at least one other person within the Splash radius, they really perform.
Want to say Cyouni did the math on this one a while back, so can't speak to specifics.
Your potency focus power is a +1 accuracy at level over every martial other than a fighter, so at level 1 you are actually ahead of accuracy on all the other non-fighter martials.Point one: No, it's not. Magus Potency is ahead of an equal-level basic magic weapon at levels 1, 7-9, and 13-15. That's 7 out of 20 levels.
Treasure rules dictate that a character shouldn't start a level with on-level items. They are expected to gain them over the course of the level. That comes out to potency coming in to play for half of their 20 levels.
Treasure rules dictate that a character shouldn't start a level with on-level items. They are expected to gain them over the course of the level. That comes out to potency coming in to play for half of their 20 levels.Your potency focus power is a +1 accuracy at level over every martial other than a fighter, so at level 1 you are actually ahead of accuracy on all the other non-fighter martials.Point one: No, it's not. Magus Potency is ahead of an equal-level basic magic weapon at levels 1, 7-9, and 13-15. That's 7 out of 20 levels.
wich i find to be a kind of s$#%ty mechanic i see this work in other classes too.
one of your base features only works half hte time of your career, outside of niche scenarios...
fun? is this fun? is it fun for me to go, hmm, look at this base class feature that i dont have a use for, yay!
a niche use ability is a FEAT, not a FEATURE.
fun? is this fun? is it fun for me to go, hmm, look at this base class feature that i dont have a use for, yay!
This so PF1e. And basically the entire reason why Class Archetypes exist.
Treasure rules dictate that a character shouldn't start a level with on-level items. They are expected to gain them over the course of the level. That comes out to potency coming in to play for half of their 20 levels.That's when making a new character at a higher level. Treasure guidelines say that when going from level X to level X+1, a four-person party should find two items of level X+1.
Indeed, these rules also state "This table gives them fewer items than they might have had if they had gained items through adventuring, balancing the fact that they can choose what items they want."
Given Magi don't have a way to refocus more than one focus point then using Weapon Potency on the "good" levels is also resigning yourself to not using the other focus powers consistently. This focus power should honestly be reworked. If they want you to have +1 over other Martials (other than Fighter) then make it a Circumstance bonus (or Status, but then it'll be kinda useless in Bard parties) that works on every level, not just a couple of them.