Tarondor's Guide to the Pathfinder Second Edition Rogue

[shroudb]

I think that 6 grabs over 17 levels is way too low, so that seems to be much more of the outlier.

It's one of the more common abilities of monsters overall (alongside fearful aura i think they should be the top 2?)

That said, I used it on my ranged halfing rogue, and the step has been amazing, basically a free action every time they grab me. And until level 7, i've been grabbed a dozen of times already, but as you said it's dependent on what you fight.

I would put it as "situational" as well, but not at all "highly". Something that you wont be using every fight, but you will be using a few times every few levels.

More like other abilities like those that upgrade Saving throws vs Mental to crit success. And i value those as "good Ancestral feats" myself.

[Enchanter Tim]

I've discovered that the Martial Artist archetype isn't as good for Ruffian Rogues. Of the stances available, most require you to be unarmored, which is unlikely for a Ruffian. Only Gorilla Stance and Stumbling Stance don't require it. Since Stumbling Stance's follow up is useless, Gorilla Stance is probably the best choice if you want to deep into the archetype.

Not useless, just a much narrower archetype than I originally thought for Str Rogues. The other stances would have been nice with their strikes having agile and backstabber.

[Martialmasters]

After reading some of this i just want to remind people.

+2 is massive in this system.

Not even half the monsters have attacks of opportunity in the bestiary. I don't even think half have reactions.

Just in case people have DMS playing incorrectly

[Dubious Scholar]

You should probably call out Stumbling Stance for scoundrel rogues. Constant +1 circumstance to feint and automatic flat-footed against anyone who hits you. The strike is excellent with 1d8 B agile finesse backstabber.

[Sapient]

shroudb wrote:

I think that 6 grabs over 17 levels is way too low, so that seems to be much more of the outlier.

It's one of the more common abilities of monsters overall (alongside fearful aura i think they should be the top 2?)

That said, I used it on my ranged halfing rogue, and the step has been amazing, basically a free action every time they grab me. And until level 7, i've been grabbed a dozen of times already, but as you said it's dependent on what you fight.

I would put it as "situational" as well, but not at all "highly". Something that you wont be using every fight, but you will be using a few times every few levels.

More like other abilities like those that upgrade Saving throws vs Mental to crit success. And i value those as "good Ancestral feats" myself.

I suspect that the commonness of grabbing is also dependent on GM style. I don't think I've seen 10 grabs for our party, total, over 16 levels.

[UnArcaneElection]

Just read your Guide to the Pathfinder Second Edition Rogue, and while I just found this discussion thread and haven't read most of it, a quick search didn't turn this up, so:

For Witch archetype, I could see taking an Arcane Patron instead of using the Wizard archetype, if you want the Arcane spell list but you also want Witch Feats that Wizard doesn't have. I haven't done a full study yet of what these are, but I did notice that (for example) Witch's Charge (and eventually Witch's Communion, but that's way late) could be really synergistic with a Bellflower Tiller Rogue or with a Bounty Hunter Rogue(*), or with some kind of spy Rogue. (This would work even with no Witch spellcasting beyond what you get from the Dedication, but any of the types of spellcasting including Arcane could potentially make it work better.) So I wouldn't say that its "a way to cast divine, occult and primal spells using Intelligence as a key ability", and I would add "See the Wizard archetype for arcane spell suggestions", although maybe tweaking the spell suggestions with the above in mind.

(*)The target must be willing, so first thing after you capture them, you convince them that they really need to be in a Witness Protection Program, and they really need to accept your status magic for the introductory stage of this.

Something that would be good to add to the Archetypes section would be about putting the Rogue archetype on other classes (if your other guides, which I haven't yet gotten to, have this for their corresponding classes, just copy and paste from there).

[Taja the Barbarian]

A few items of note from the latest errata:
Orc Weapon Familiarity now works like other ancestral weapon feats in that the 'Orc Knuckle Dagger' is simple for proficiency purposes only.
Blank Slate and Dispelling Strike rogue feats should use half the originally listed counteract levels (10 instead of 20 for Blank Slate, half your level (rounded up) instead of your level for Dispelling Strike), bringing them in line with the rest of the game.
Combat maneuvers using a Finesse weapon still use Strength (rather than Dexterity) for the relevant skill check, as this roll is not actually an 'attack roll' and therefore does not qualify for the Finesse trait.

Someone did us a huge favor and broke out just the 'new' errata items here: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs438bv?Errata-2-but-its-just-the-new-stuff

[UnArcaneElection]

Addition to what I posted above: Just skimming your Wizard guide and Fighter guide to see what they said about the Rogue archetype, I see that you put a stub for the Wizard archetype for the analogous purpose (other classes multiclassing into Wizard) in the Wizard guide. Just put in an analogous stub for the Fighter archetype in the Fighter guide and an analogous stub for the Rogue archetype in the Rogue guide, and then as you make guides for the other classes, copy and paste into these stubs as appropriate.

[UnArcaneElection]

Food for thought: Ancient Elf + Eldritch Trickster to get a triple class build (like the AD&D 1st Edition Figher/Magic-User/Thief). Also see here. But current forum thinking (and my reading of the Rules As Written, at least on Archives of Nethys) seems to lean in favor of this combination being illegal.

[UnArcaneElection]

More food for thought: Probably more powerful than using Ancient Elf + Eldritch Trickster to get a triple class build would be to use Ancient Elf instead of Eldritch Trickster, to get effectively an Eldritch Trickster, but using the Rogue Racket that you really want for its own abilities.

[Nurt]

Thanks for the guide I really enjoy that you list all the archetypes with the thoughts

[Narxiso]

I was looking at the archetypes, and archer is wrong. Rogues can sneak attack with any ranged weapon, longbow and crossbow included.

As for dual-wield warrior, I would not make the dedication blue. Double slice is good, but it is not a must have, especially because you can only count precision on one attack.

I do not think the Aldori Duelist or Red Mantis Assassins are as good as you've put them. They both require two general feats (both for weapon proficiency) to gain access to, which makes non-human unable to get until level 8.

As for the scout, scout's pounce also requires the character to be hidden or undetected from all enemies. While that is probably the usual hope for a rogue, it can only be used on the first turn until level 15, when rogues can get legendary sneak.

[Yako Zenko]

I need to point out a problem with your guide. For Kobold feat, Grovel is mentioned as great for Archer or Eldritch Trickster. This is, sadly, incorrect. Because while Grovel let's you feint from a distance. Feint itself specifies it only leaves a target flat-footed against "your next melee attack", inside it's own rules. Thus it will not net any benefit for ranged attacks or for eldritch trickster. In fact, it makes Grovel a pretty odd feat, as it doesn't really do anything unless you can't get to melee this turn and want to fish for a crit-feint, or if their Perception is a lot higher than their Will. (Ironically, knowing that info is more of a Mastermind's area of expertise, and works better for them.) I suppose it also means if you don't have a flank buddy, you can attenmpt to flat-foot feint them BEFORE getting into melee. possibly saving a suicide walk.

[Yako Zenko]

further I have to add, for a specifically Mastermind, the Assured Information is not a terrible use of a feat. free-action flat-footed-until-start-of-next-turn is not something to scoff at whilly-nilly. Sure it will primarily only have value against on-level or weaker enemies, and takes some feat sinks for it. However, I would definitely say it has it's value for a character that is going to be wanting to Recall Knowledge a lot anyway. Not to mention, all the skill feats you get as a Rogue means you can fit it in easier than other classes. As such, for a Mastermind, I would argue it's a orange instead of red.

[HammerJack]

I do still scoff at the free action to recall knowledge with Assurance because of the important caveat that if Assurance fails, as it will in many cases, you've exhausted your ability to try recalling knowledge about that target. It isn't in the same boat as someone trying to use Assurance to shove or trip and learning that fort or reflex is too high for that. It may still be useful with good meta-guessing, but that's a pretty hefty asterisk that goes next to any recommendation.

[Yako Zenko]

HammerJack wrote:

I do still scoff at the free action to recall knowledge with Assurance because of the important caveat that if Assurance fails, as it will in many cases, you've exhausted your ability to try recalling knowledge about that target.

The "exhausted ability to try" bit depends on the ability for recall knowledge. The rules suggest it could be re-tried at a higher DC. If not, then there is little value in the Mastermind either (as mentioned in the guide.) And, I was merely arguing that, in the case of Mastermind, it is closer to the orange definition. "ORANGE: This option will have good utility for some strategies or styles." Utility as an archer, in the case of enemy horde of lower, individually, cr targets. Free action to increase odds of pincushioning targets each round.

Not going to terribly hurt if the OP disagrees however.

[HammerJack]

I'm afraid they don't suggest that. Trying again at higher DC is what you can do normally, but you've failed, you're done.

Quote:

Sometimes a character might want to follow up on a check to Recall Knowledge, rolling another check to discover more information. After a success, further uses of Recall Knowledge can yield more information, but you should adjust the difficulty to be higher for each attempt. Once a character has attempted an incredibly hard check or failed a check, further attempts are fruitless—the character has recalled everything they know about the subject.

This doesn't make the mastermind useless, though. The flat-footed being attached to an action with its own value is good, even without being spammable. Only the mastermind who operates at range and whose allies provide no assistance in setting up flat-footed targets by means other than flanking suffers. That's much more specific, and involves a lot more than just choosing the mastermind racket.

[Yako Zenko]

HammerJack wrote:

I'm afraid they don't suggest that. Trying again at higher DC is what you can do normally, but you've failed, you're done.

Quote:

Sometimes a character might want to follow up on a check to Recall Knowledge, rolling another check to discover more information. After a success, further uses of Recall Knowledge can yield more information, but you should adjust the difficulty to be higher for each attempt. Once a character has attempted an incredibly hard check or failed a check, further attempts are fruitless—the character has recalled everything they know about the subject.

Ah, I had missed the line about failing it being the end of it.

[Yako Zenko]

Oh, speaking of Mastermind related things. Unfortunately for the Mastermind or Thief wanting to multi-class into investigator. They can't gain the Lie Detector in the Advanced Deductions. Lie Detector requires one of two specific Investigator Methodologies. Which the dedication feat does not provide.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

One thing that might be useful to add to this guide is to list the Rogue feats with skill prerequisites in the Skills section

For example, listing the following under Deception:
Trained:

• (01) Overextending Feint

Legendary:

• (16) Blank Slate
• (16) Perfect Distraction
• (20) Reactive Distraction

Okay, I finally put together a list of rogue feats with skill requirements (Blank Slate in particular can come as a late game surprise if you don't plan far enough ahead):

Acrobatics
Legendary:
(16) Cloud Step
(16) Swift Elusion
(18) Implausible Infiltration

Athletics
Trained:
(06) Shove Down
Master:
(14) Stay Down!

Arcana, Nature, Occultism, or Religion
Trained:
(08) Loaner Spell
Master:
(20) Steal Essence (Uncommon)*

Deception
Trained:
(01) Overextending Feint
Legendary:
(16) Blank Slate
(16) Perfect Distraction
(20) Reactive Distraction

Intimidation
Trained:
(01) You're Next
(06) Watch Your Back

Medicine
Trained:
(12) Bloody Debilitations

Stealth
Trained:
(02) Underhanded Assault
Expert:
(06) Anticipate Ambush
Master:
(08) Tactical Entry
(10) Sneak Savant
Legendary:
(20) Hidden Paragon

Thievery
Expert:
(06) Stella's Stab and Snag (Uncommon)
Legendary:
(20) Steal Essence (Uncommon)*

*Steal Essence (Uncommon) requires either legendary in Thievery - or - master in Arcana, Nature, Occultism, or Religion.

[Lillika]

This quote when talking about getting the flat-footed condition stuck me as a major problem when dealing with pathfinder 2e tactics. "A fighter may trip an opponent or a sorcerer may stun one, but you can’t rely on these sources. You must be able to cause the condition reliably by yourself."

I have been working on party synergy and teamwork. I feel this should be a regular party discussion as to "how can we work together better". "What are are tactics going to be in situation A or situation B. Pathfinder 2e is more about group tactics than solo play. In my opinion it is probably better for someone else to apply flatfooted (or even just be a flanking buddy (or if you take gang up at lvl 6, just a melee buddy or 2). If the whole party is trying to get the most every member of the party then it shouldn't be a "must" to make it happen yourself.

Also I don't think stun grants flat-footed btw.

[Lillika]

Also your Rogue/Fighter Build (Archery) uses a sling which is a reload 1 weapon meaning many of the fighter feats don't work for it such as Double and Triple Shot won't work. What is soo egregious about this is I love halflings and love slings and thought I had finally found a build :(

[Blave]

Why do you value Defy the Darkness so highly? Dwarves have Darkvision anyway. Greater Darkvision only helps against 4th level magical darkness, which is somewhat rare.

And even if it happens, you are still not blinded by it if you have darkvision (which you do). It only causes you to treat targets as concealed, which admittedly is annoying, but hardly crippling. Countering a rare annoyance doesn't really seem worth a feat.

Am I missing something?

[Taja the Barbarian]

Lillika wrote:

This quote when talking about getting the flat-footed condition stuck me as a major problem when dealing with pathfinder 2e tactics. "A fighter may trip an opponent or a sorcerer may stun one, but you can’t rely on these sources. You must be able to cause the condition reliably by yourself."

I have been working on party synergy and teamwork. I feel this should be a regular party discussion as to "how can we work together better". "What are are tactics going to be in situation A or situation B. Pathfinder 2e is more about group tactics than solo play. In my opinion it is probably better for someone else to apply flatfooted (or even just be a flanking buddy (or if you take gang up at lvl 6, just a melee buddy or 2). If the whole party is trying to get the most every member of the party then it shouldn't be a "must" to make it happen yourself.

Also I don't think stun grants flat-footed btw.

Teamwork is great, but you shouldn't rely on it: Not every trip attempt succeeds, not every situation allows you to wait for your teammates to go first, and sometimes your allies crit fail their saves and can't contribute to the fight.

If your partner being unable to help prevents you from using your abilities, your party could be in a great deal of trouble: One failure is bad enough, but if it also hobbles another character (whether for a round or an entire fight), your party is probably going to struggle more than it really should...

[Syri]

Narxiso wrote:

I was looking at the archetypes, and archer is wrong. Rogues can sneak attack with any ranged weapon, longbow and crossbow included.

Yes, the guide repeats this mistake in its analysis of Dual-Weapon Reload: The guide mistakenly states that the blowgun and hand crossbow require ruffian. They do not: Every weapon on the Ranged Weapons Table automatically works with sneak attack; only thrown weapons on the Melee Weapons Table require agile, finesse, or ruffian.

[Tarondor]

Enchanter Tim wrote:

I've discovered that the Martial Artist archetype isn't as good for Ruffian Rogues. Of the stances available, most require you to be unarmored, which is unlikely for a Ruffian. Only Gorilla Stance and Stumbling Stance don't require it. Since Stumbling Stance's follow up is useless, Gorilla Stance is probably the best choice if you want to deep into the archetype.

Not useless, just a much narrower archetype than I originally thought for Str Rogues. The other stances would have been nice with their strikes having agile and backstabber.

Dubious Scholar wrote:

You should probably call out Stumbling Stance for scoundrel rogues. Constant +1 circumstance to feint and automatic flat-footed against anyone who hits you. The strike is excellent with 1d8 B agile finesse backstabber.

Thanks for the catches. Fixed some time ago, just forgot to give credit.

[Tarondor]

To the many, many people who've pointed out my mistake with sneak attack and ranged weapons, thank you. I'm working on it and should have it fixed soon.

[Tarondor]

Narxiso wrote:

As for the scout, scout's pounce also requires the character to be hidden or undetected from all enemies. While that is probably the usual hope for a rogue, it can only be used on the first turn until level 15, when rogues can get legendary sneak.

Yeah, but rogues aren't fighters and shouldn't expect to do devastating damage every round. Scout's pounce allows for a very powerful strike at the start of combat and occasionally at other times, which I think is very good.

[Tarondor]

Yako Zenko wrote:

I need to point out a problem with your guide. For Kobold feat, Grovel is mentioned as great for Archer or Eldritch Trickster. This is, sadly, incorrect. Because while Grovel let's you feint from a distance. Feint itself specifies it only leaves a target flat-footed against "your next melee attack", inside it's own rules. Thus it will not net any benefit for ranged attacks or for eldritch trickster. In fact, it makes Grovel a pretty odd feat, as it doesn't really do anything unless you can't get to melee this turn and want to fish for a crit-feint, or if their Perception is a lot higher than their Will. (Ironically, knowing that info is more of a Mastermind's area of expertise, and works better for them.) I suppose it also means if you don't have a flank buddy, you can attenmpt to flat-foot feint them BEFORE getting into melee. possibly saving a suicide walk.

While you're not wrong, I think that's a very mechanistic reading of the feat. The obvious intention of Grovel is to change the way Feint works. I'd allow the flat-footed condition from Grovel to apply to the kobold's ranged attack.

[Tarondor]

Yako Zenko wrote:

Oh, speaking of Mastermind related things. Unfortunately for the Mastermind or Thief wanting to multi-class into investigator. They can't gain the Lie Detector in the Advanced Deductions. Lie Detector requires one of two specific Investigator Methodologies. Which the dedication feat does not provide.

True! Fixed.

[Tarondor]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Okay, I finally put together a list of rogue feats with skill requirements (Blank Slate in particular can come as a late game surprise if you don't plan far enough ahead):

Thanks for doing this!

[Tarondor]

Lillika wrote:

This quote when talking about getting the flat-footed condition stuck me as a major problem when dealing with pathfinder 2e tactics. "A fighter may trip an opponent or a sorcerer may stun one, but you can’t rely on these sources. You must be able to cause the condition reliably by yourself."

I have been working on party synergy and teamwork. I feel this should be a regular party discussion as to "how can we work together better". "What are are tactics going to be in situation A or situation B. Pathfinder 2e is more about group tactics than solo play. In my opinion it is probably better for someone else to apply flatfooted (or even just be a flanking buddy (or if you take gang up at lvl 6, just a melee buddy or 2). If the whole party is trying to get the most every member of the party then it shouldn't be a "must" to make it happen yourself.

In theory you're right. A good team should work together. But a good player should never assume he or she will always have an assist handy. The teammates may be doing something else of higher value and be unable to tee up the flat-footed for the rogue. -Always- have a way to do it yourself!

Lillika wrote:

Also I don't think stun grants flat-footed btw.

True!

[Tarondor]

Lillika wrote:

Also your Rogue/Fighter Build (Archery) uses a sling which is a reload 1 weapon meaning many of the fighter feats don't work for it such as Double and Triple Shot won't work. What is soo egregious about this is I love halflings and love slings and thought I had finally found a build :(

Ah, ratfarts. You're right. I just removed the reference to slings and it works fine, but I did like the idea of a halfling slinger.

You could build a rogue slinger just fine without using Fighter, though.

[Tarondor]

Blave wrote:

Why do you value Defy the Darkness so highly? Dwarves have Darkvision anyway. Greater Darkvision only helps against 4th level magical darkness, which is somewhat rare.

And even if it happens, you are still not blinded by it if you have darkvision (which you do). It only causes you to treat targets as concealed, which admittedly is annoying, but hardly crippling. Countering a rare annoyance doesn't really seem worth a feat.

Am I missing something?

Honestly, I don't know what I was thinking. It's definitely cool and worth a feat (I don't agree with you there), but I don't know why I was so exuberant.

[Staffan Johansson]

For the Ultimate Skill build, if you really want to boost skills at the expense of combat ability, you could drop Linguist (you're already getting expert Society from Dandy) in favor of Investigator dedication, and then start taking Skill Mastery feats from level 8 onward. Skill Mastery gets you two skill increases (one to Expert and one to Master), plus a skill feat associated with either skill.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Tarondor wrote:

Narxiso wrote:

As for the scout, scout's pounce also requires the character to be hidden or undetected from all enemies. While that is probably the usual hope for a rogue, it can only be used on the first turn until level 15, when rogues can get legendary sneak.

Yeah, but rogues aren't fighters and shouldn't expect to do devastating damage every round. Scout's pounce allows for a very powerful strike at the start of combat and occasionally at other times, which I think is very good.

Personally, I found my thief had few issues* keeping up with the two-handed weapon wielding Barbarian and Fighter in our party:

• Gang Up made it fairly easy to get flanking,
• Sneak Attack easily compensated for my smaller weapon die,
• Precise Debilitation at least partially offset their own bonus damage, and
• Opportune Backstab typically got me more 'extra strikes' than their own Opportunity Attacks.

Unlike previous editions, Rogues are actually really solid damage-dealers in PF2e...

*There were a handful of incorporeal or otherwise resistant to precision damage foes, of course...

[Gortle]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Personally, I found my thief had few issues* keeping up with the two-handed weapon wielding Barbarian and Fighter in our party:

• Gang Up made it fairly easy to get flanking,
• Sneak Attack easily compensated for my smaller weapon die,
• Precise Debilitation at least partially offset their own bonus damage, and
• Opportune Backstab typically got me more 'extra strikes' than their own Opportunity Attacks.

Unlike previous editions, Rogues are actually really solid damage-dealers in PF2e...

*There were a handful of incorporeal or otherwise resistant to precision damage foes, of course...

Yep. Anyone who thinks that rogues can't keep up in damage dealing hasn't appreciated Opportune Backstab.

[Tarondor]

Or the Gang Up/Opportune Backstab/Preparation trio.

[Tarondor]

Staffan Johansson wrote:

For the Ultimate Skill build, if you really want to boost skills at the expense of combat ability, you could drop Linguist (you're already getting expert Society from Dandy) in favor of Investigator dedication, and then start taking Skill Mastery feats from level 8 onward. Skill Mastery gets you two skill increases (one to Expert and one to Master), plus a skill feat associated with either skill.

The problem with that is that Skill Mastery is an 8th level Investigator feat. Which means that the rogue/investigator can't take it until 16th level. By that time, bumping skills up to Expert and Master don't make a huge difference, plus I'm giving up real rogue feats like Trickster's Ace and Defensive Roll.

It can be done, but I don't think you'd want to do it.

[Staffan Johansson]

Tarondor wrote:

Staffan Johansson wrote:

For the Ultimate Skill build, if you really want to boost skills at the expense of combat ability, you could drop Linguist (you're already getting expert Society from Dandy) in favor of Investigator dedication, and then start taking Skill Mastery feats from level 8 onward. Skill Mastery gets you two skill increases (one to Expert and one to Master), plus a skill feat associated with either skill.

The problem with that is that Skill Mastery is an 8th level Investigator feat. Which means that the rogue/investigator can't take it until 16th level. By that time, bumping skills up to Expert and Master don't make a huge difference, plus I'm giving up real rogue feats like Trickster's Ace and Defensive Roll.

It can be done, but I don't think you'd want to do it.

What? No!

This is the feat I'm thinking of. It's a feat specifically for the Investigator multi-class dedication that you can take at 8th level. The intent is really for non-skill-monkey classes to be able to get some of the skill monkey juice by giving up their class feats, but there's nothing that says you can't multi-class your rogue into investigator or vice versa to supercharge your skills.

And the Ultimate Skill build is, as I understand it, intended more as a thought experiment in getting the most skills possible, not necessarily the most useful character.

Oh, and to get even sillier you could also spend your skill feats (not the ones from Skill Mastery, but the others) on Additional Lore, because those auto-increase in the same way as Acrobatics from the Acrobat dedication does.

[Enchanter Tim]

Enchanter Tim wrote:

I've discovered that the Martial Artist archetype isn't as good for Ruffian Rogues. Of the stances available, most require you to be unarmored, which is unlikely for a Ruffian. Only Gorilla Stance and Stumbling Stance don't require it. Since Stumbling Stance's follow up is useless, Gorilla Stance is probably the best choice if you want to deep into the archetype.

Not useless, just a much narrower archetype than I originally thought for Str Rogues. The other stances would have been nice with their strikes having agile and backstabber.

This is actually worse than I originally thought. While Ruffian Rogues gain the ability to sneak attack with non-agile simple weapons, unarmed strikes are not simple weapons (they're unarmed). So Ruffians can only sneak attack with agile/finesse unarmed strikes, even when they otherwise don't care about agile. That means Gorilla Stance is worthless, which is a shame because it's a very thematic fit with Ruffian. So the only stance that works for an armored Ruffian is Stumbling Stance, which tends to fit better with a Scoundrel Rogue.

A simple fix for this would be Paizo (or a generous GM) to say Ruffians gain the ability to sneak attack with non-agile unarmed strikes just as they do with simple weapons. But that's not the rule for now.

[HammerJack]

I'd say there's a bit of "yes and no" there. A ruffian rogue's racket ability to sneak attack with simple weapons wouldn't help a stumbling stance martial artist, but at the same time a stumbling stance ruffian with full possible strength and Vicious Debillitations works out very well.

(The extra damage from the STR primary is great at low levels, and Vicious Debillitations is great later on, when the damage gap between DEX and STR primary versions isn't as large.)

[Unicore]

I took martial artist on my mastermind rogue and it has been a blast. At first I was going to take quick draw, to be able to switch hit quickly and take advantage of those rounds where I don't have to move or hide to set up a sneak attack with an effective weapon, but now I don't need a weapon in my off hand at all to do as effective damage I can do with any weapon and wolf stance leading into wolf drag makes for a nasty set up, even without having to try to keep up with athletics, which is tough to do with the fact that every rogue seems to have to spend ranks and feats in medicine, and the mastermind needs to keep up with so many knowledge skills.

It is pretty nice to be able to be good at range, and then draw enemies into attacking you up close, only for you to really be able to wail on them when they do. You sacrifice 1 point of AC between levels 4 and 10, but getting a D8 weapon with backstabber is pretty awesome.

[Staffan Johansson]

I did some experimenting with All-In on Skills, and came up with a build that at 14th level is a Master in 12 skills (three of which have to be Acrobatics, Deception, and Society), and Trained in 3 skills + 1 lore. No expert skills at this point. After that, you hit Legendary in Acrobatics + 1 more at 15th, and then boost one more to Legendary each level after that. The relevant choices were:

Ancestry: Human (skilled)
Starting Int 14
Class: Rogue - Scoundrel

Level 2: Dandy dedication

Level 4: Gossip Lore, Distracting Flattery (meaning you took three Dandy feats)

Level 6: Acrobat dedication

Level 9: Multitalented (human feat, letting you take Investigator dedication without completing Acrobat)

Levels 10, 12, and 14: Skill Mastery

I think that if I wanted to make this better, I'd rather drop Dandy, as that gets me two Expert skill increases and require me to spend two class feats (and a skill feat) to close it out. In that case I could instead take Acrobat at 2nd, leaving 4th and 6th open for proper Rogue feats (like Gang Up). Investigator gets me two skill increases (one to Expert and one to Master) for one level 9 ancestry feat and one class feat, plus two more skill increases per class feat I spend on it. That's way better than Dandy, even though the feats are higher level.

[Enchanter Tim]

HammerJack wrote:

I'd say there's a bit of "yes and no" there. A ruffian rogue's racket ability to sneak attack with simple weapons wouldn't help a stumbling stance martial artist, but at the same time a stumbling stance ruffian with full possible strength and Vicious Debillitations works out very well.

(The extra damage from the STR primary is great at low levels, and Vicious Debillitations is great later on, when the damage gap between DEX and STR primary versions isn't as large.)

It wasn't so much a commentary on Ruffian with Stumbling Stance as it was the inability to use Gorilla Stance, which seems very ideal. Ruffian with Stumbling does seem interesting. It might be my next character, though I also really like Ruffian with Dual-weapon Warrior.

[Tarondor]

Staffan Johansson wrote:

What? No!

This is the feat I'm thinking of.

Yeah, and when you take a multiclass dedication, you don't get to use that class's feats at their own level. You get them at twice their level.

Advanced Hunter's Trick wrote:

You gain one ranger feat. For the purpose of meeting its prerequisites, your ranger level is equal to half your character level.

So a rogue with ranger MC would have to be 16th level to take that 8th level ranger feat.

[Zoomba]

Tarondor wrote:

Staffan Johansson wrote:

What? No!

This is the feat I'm thinking of.

Yeah, and when you take a multiclass dedication, you don't get to use that class's feats at their own level. You get them at twice their level.

Advanced Hunter's Trick wrote:

You gain one ranger feat. For the purpose of meeting its prerequisites, your ranger level is equal to half your character level.

So a rogue with ranger MC would have to be 16th level to take that 8th level ranger feat.

Except that the feat in question (Skill Mastery) isn't a 'Class' feat (or even technically an Investigator feat) - it's an Archetype Feat. Anyone with the Investigator dedication Archetype can take it at 8th level or higher (and up to 5 times based on it's special rider).

[Staffan Johansson]

Tarondor wrote:

Staffan Johansson wrote:

What? No!

This is the feat I'm thinking of.

Yeah, and when you take a multiclass dedication, you don't get to use that class's feats at their own level. You get them at twice their level.

Advanced Hunter's Trick wrote:

You gain one ranger feat. For the purpose of meeting its prerequisites, your ranger level is equal to half your character level.

So a rogue with ranger MC would have to be 16th level to take that 8th level ranger feat.

Yes, but I'm not talking about taking an 8th level Investigator feat. I'm talking about taking an 8th level Archetype feat, and that only requires me to be 8th level (well, and have one Trained and one Expert skill, but that's not a problem). Just like you can take Investigator's Stratagem to get a weaker version of Devise a Stratagem at 4th level, you can take Skill Mastery to get extra skill ranks at 8th. Or, to use your ranger example, I would only need to be a 4th level rogue to score extra hit points via Ranger's Resiliency.

If I instead wanted to take, say, Clue Them All In, I would need to be 16th level because that's an 8th level Investigator feat. But I don't want an 8th level Investigator feat, I want an 8th level Archetype feat.

But it's fairly common for archetypes to provide access to iconic class abilities at around level 4-10. The alchemist gets Quick Alchemy at level 4, the barbarian an Instinct ability at level 6, and the bard gets Inspire Courage at level 8. And the investigator gets the stratagem at 4, and gets to add skill juice at 8.

Now, I'm totally down with a rogue not thinking that spending their 10th level class feat on improving their (in the long run) 7th and 8th most important skills is a good idea when they instead could learn to shank folks when other people are also shanking them, but they certainly can do it.

[Tarondor]

Got it. Yep, you're right. Pretty cool.

[Nyhme]

Love the guide. One thing I think you missed in considering the value of arcane sense. It's detect magic as an innate arcane spell. That's trained in the arcane tradition. So at 1st lvl(rogue, investigator or anyone taking one of the backgrounds giving it) you can use arcane scrolls, wands etc and don't need trick magic item.

Consider an aasimar elf eldritch trickster bard. 3rd lvl he is trained in every spellcasting tradition(bard- occult, halo-divine, arcane sense- arcane wildborn magic - primal). 3rd level and trick magic item is obsolete.

Totally love the guide though.