Ancient Elf as an Eldritch Trickster Rogue - The Impossible Ancestry & Class Combo


Rules Discussion


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Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

How do you make an Eldritch Trickster Rogue with the Ancient Elf Heritage? Or is that just not an option? It looks like you cannot make one by rules as written, if am reading those options correctly, since they both grant a Multiclass Archetype Dedication at 1st level.


You could take it but you only get one dedication so the ancient elf part would basically do nothing but work as a prereq for other feats that require the age of which I think there are a few.

Dark Archive

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Specific trumps General, and there is precedent in the Human ancestry feat Multi-Talented, so I would say that you DO get both feats, but cannot take another dedication feat until you had satisfied BOTH dedications.

But that's just my take.


Eldritch Archer requires expert prof in a bow so you cant meet that prereq with Ancient Elf.


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Callin13 wrote:
Eldritch Archer requires expert prof in a bow so you cant meet that prereq with Ancient Elf.

This is about the Eldritch Trickster, a rogue racket.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Multitalented specifically addresses overcoming the normal limit on dedications. It is not evidence that these two things work together without houseruling.


Brew Bird wrote:
Callin13 wrote:
Eldritch Archer requires expert prof in a bow so you cant meet that prereq with Ancient Elf.
This is about the Eldritch Trickster, a rogue racket.

Yep my bad, I see that now.

On topic I dont think you can because unlike Multi-Talented it dont have the language to let you bypass the dedication lockout.


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Note I'm tentatively agreeing that one can't have both Dedications.

Yet w/ Ancient Elf, one isn't taking a Dedication feat. The PC's taking a Heritage feat, which then gives you a feat that bypasses the level prereq. Sure, you must meet all other prereqs, but that's not how 2nd Dedication feats get blocked. Yes, there's some trickery with semantics and order of operations (which is a red flag to me), but I'm not sure it's illegal.


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Unfortunately it'd seem like you can't play an Ancient Elf Eldritch Trickster. Both give a Multiclass Dedication Feat, but they have no wording saying you can ignore the Dedication's requirements (like Multitalented does).

So you'd go through CC, pick Ancestry, get your Ancient Elf Multi-class dedication, then move on to class, and that's where the trouble occurs.

As a GM I'd be more than willing to let a player be an Ancient Elf Eldritch Trickster if their Ancient Elf Dedication and the Eldritch Trickster Dedication would be the same, but I'm not entirely sure that's possible under the rules.


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Old folk are onery and set in their ways, which means they're unlikely to be tricksters anyhow. :P

Horizon Hunters

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You can just say you are an older elf without taking the ancient elf heritage, if you want it for the age. If you want it so you can get two multiclass dedications at level 1... yeah, jog on mate.


DomHeroEllis wrote:
You can just say you are an older elf without taking the ancient elf heritage, if you want it for the age. If you want it so you can get two multiclass dedications at level 1... yeah, jog on mate.

This 100% this, I wouldn't allow someone who was trying to cheese it. But if it was for non mechanical RP themes I would be fine, heck I would consider giving a free ancestry feat in condolence if they REALLY had themselves set on the heritage for a later level feat or something.

Mwybe even a free dedication feat after they have successfully gained two in the rogue dedication.


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I'd hardly call trying to get two dedication feats cheese, just kind of a prickly rules situation.

More importantly, this seems definitely like a situation of specific over general. Multitalented is concerned with bypassing the normal progression you need to meet while taking dedication feats and archetype feats.

These other two options just grant you these feats with no interaction with the typical progression for multiclass archetypes.

The only thing these options require you to meet are the prerequisites for the feats. Not the special clause, which is concerned for standard feat selection.

If the feature says it does a thing, it does a thing. They don't block each other, but those feats do prevent taking another dedication feat like normal.

Consider it like this; ancient elf and eldritch tricker grants the feats, the feats themselves prevent choice elsewhere. You only chose the class for the feature, not the feats themselves.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Yeah, it's not something I would do for just getting the feats. It is just one of those things I noticed while trying to design an Elven Eldritch Trickster Rogue, that really bugged me upon noticing it after reading so much nice and elegant rules design that fits so well with the other rules. Then, I see this thing sticking out like a broken thumb.

Honestly, if I did want 2 dedication feats as fast as I could get them, I would just take one of these (Ancient Elf or Eldritch Trickster) and then take Vigilante Dedication followed by Social Purview. But, that imposes certain limitations on character concept, and that is what I am really about, not min-maxing the system.

I thought that maybe there was some rules element I wasn't catching that would make this work, but there does not seem to be a clear answer, based on how the dedication feats are written when paired with Ancient Elf and Eldritch Trickster. Also, if it is not working as intended or was something that got missed or should have been written more clearly by the designers, I figured I should bring it up sooner rather than later for any errata that might eventually come out.

As far as the character I was designing, I'm going to look elsewhere for my ancestry/heritage choice than Ancient Elf for my Eldritch Trickster (MC Witch) and eventual Familiar Master Rogue. I just wanted a Rogue that uses magic and steals stuff with his amazing little familiar buddy, sort of like a more magical Aladdin. I thought the Elf heritages would work well for all their magical abilities baked into the heritages and ancestries, so I could get a little more in the way of magical options and spells.


If you already have witch dedication from the ancient elf background, Eldritch Trickster does almost nothing for you mechanically. You could just as easily grab Thief for dexterity to damage and still be equally like a magical Aladdin or Mastermind if you wanted to keep Int as your primary attribute. The only change would be you'd have to wait until 4 for Magical Trickster if you wanted it but after that you're nearly identical.

I don't think it's necessary for every option to work together seemlessly. Most of the versatile heritages increase a players vision from low-light to darkvision if they already have low-light, but the heritages also have feats to give the player darkvision. If you play an elf-tielfling, you'd have darkvision, but nothing really stops you from taking the Fiendish Eyes feat to get darkvision again... it just does nothing. The option clearly exists for those who didn't get darkvision at 1st level. It's sort of assumed you'd pick something else if you already had it. Trying to take ancient elf and eldritch trickster feels like the same thing to me.

One of the biggest complaints about the multiclass dedications is that characters couldn't play 'blended' concepts right at level 1. When ancient elf came out, this forum was awash with people claiming it was OP and unfair that only elves could have the multiclass dedications at level 1. Not that it was necessarily more powerful, but that it opened up so much build space. Eldritch trickster, and many archetypes, looks like a deliberate way to enable the blended build concepts earlier. It's lateral to ancient elf, not additive. So if you want to do an elf rogue that uses magic at level 1, you've got a lot of options:

Thief or Mastermind Rogue + Ancient Elf
Eldritch Trickster Rogue + Any other Elf heritage (ostensibly even an ancient elf came from some other culture)

If you want to be "old" still, there's a whole host of elf feats that let you do that:
(1)
Ancestral Longevity
Ancestral Linguistics
Elven Aloofness
Forlorn
(5)
Ageless Patience
Ancestral Suspicion


Truth to be told i am not sure whey they even put they racket in game.
You practically need to wait just for second level, to recreate "arcane trickster" from earlier editions. It's hardy any advantageous of giving the same thing on first level.
In fact - less advantageous, as you would not be able to use feats exclusive to other rackets.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
I wouldn't allow someone who was trying to cheese it.

I don't think that's a fair way to characterize it.

We just have two options that players can take together fairly easily but it's unclear what happens when you do.


I just read threw the language of eldritch trickster and ancient elf, and I don't think it works. Both grant a dedication feat and all dedication feats say you cannot have another dedication until you take more feats from that dedication. Too bad, because it sounds interesting.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
RealAlchemy wrote:
I just read threw the language of eldritch trickster and ancient elf, and I don't think it works. Both grant a dedication feat and all dedication feats say you cannot have another dedication until you take more feats from that dedication. Too bad, because it sounds interesting.

Do you think that if you say, took Champion MCD with Ancient Elf that you could take Champion Archetype feats at 4 and 6 and then have Eldritch Trickster resolve properly and give you your spellcaster multiclass then? Or perhaps vice versa? You'd no longer have the qualifying issue at that point, then.

Scarab Sages

Squiggit wrote:
We just have two options that players can take together fairly easily but it's unclear what happens when you do.

I'm surprised that no one from Paizo has responded to this post. I think an official ruling should be issued.

Scarab Sages

KOReldor wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
We just have two options that players can take together fairly easily but it's unclear what happens when you do.
I'm surprised that no one from Paizo has responded to this post. I think an official ruling should be issued.

They don't do that anymore.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Angel Hunter D wrote:
KOReldor wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
We just have two options that players can take together fairly easily but it's unclear what happens when you do.
I'm surprised that no one from Paizo has responded to this post. I think an official ruling should be issued.
They don't do that anymore.

They do issue errata, yes. It's been slow so far though. Nothing to suggest that they'd discuss a fringe case within the first week of it existing...

Scarab Sages

Sporkedup wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
KOReldor wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
We just have two options that players can take together fairly easily but it's unclear what happens when you do.
I'm surprised that no one from Paizo has responded to this post. I think an official ruling should be issued.
They don't do that anymore.
They do issue errata, yes. It's been slow so far though. Nothing to suggest that they'd discuss a fringe case within the first week of it existing...

That's different. The question was about a response on the forum. They don't do that. They do issue errata, but it's not on a forum post.


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Angel Hunter D wrote:
That's different. The question was about a response on the forum. They don't do that. They do issue errata, but it's not on a forum post.

Mark has come onto the forum and cleared things up or said "this will be in the next errata and this is how it works" a few times.

So not really true. But it happens infrequently enough that I wouldn't be waiting with baited breath.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
That's different. The question was about a response on the forum. They don't do that. They do issue errata, but it's not on a forum post.

Mark has come onto the forum and cleared things up or said "this will be in the next errata and this is how it works" a few times.

So not really true. But it happens infrequently enough that I wouldn't be waiting with baited breath.

It depends, they don't want to issue rulings on the forums anymore. There was way too much of that is PF1 and they have said they don't want to be involved in that.

That said, their "official" response really could do with being quicker and more comprehensive. Smaller companies than Paizo with, arguably more complex products, have quicker turnaround time for community questions.

AoN present a perfect place to add clarification and insight where an officially errata is either too slow or not the correct vehicle.

Hell, even a dedicated Community-Developer Liaison would be a massive step in the right direction. Even if they serve no other real purpose than to catalog and sort community questions for eventual dev discussion, it would at least be a channel for people to gain some form of insight into product issues.

Liberty's Edge

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TheFinish wrote:

Unfortunately it'd seem like you can't play an Ancient Elf Eldritch Trickster. Both give a Multiclass Dedication Feat, but they have no wording saying you can ignore the Dedication's requirements (like Multitalented does).

So you'd go through CC, pick Ancestry, get your Ancient Elf Multi-class dedication, then move on to class, and that's where the trouble occurs.

As a GM I'd be more than willing to let a player be an Ancient Elf Eldritch Trickster if their Ancient Elf Dedication and the Eldritch Trickster Dedication would be the same, but I'm not entirely sure that's possible under the rules.

Since Ancient Elf explicitly mentions "Choose a class other than your own.", your Class and all the options that go with it have already been chosen before you select Ancient Elf.

It might not be the RAI but it is definitely the RAW.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Old folk are onery and set in their ways, which means they're unlikely to be tricksters anyhow. :P

I dunno man, my grandfather was a trickster until he died at the age of 84. :p


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Gargs454 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Old folk are onery and set in their ways, which means they're unlikely to be tricksters anyhow. :P
I dunno man, my grandfather was a trickster until he died at the age of 84. :p

That is what you think. Reality is he is still alive and tricking you.


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The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
Gargs454 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Old folk are onery and set in their ways, which means they're unlikely to be tricksters anyhow. :P
I dunno man, my grandfather was a trickster until he died at the age of 84. :p
That is what you think. Reality is he is still alive and tricking you.

Man if only. :)


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Although there's a lot of gray area in the mechanical reading of these two abilities, I think first and foremost a sanity check should help to inform the decision.

Assume I'm a new player who knows nothing about the function of these character options. There is nothing at all unusual or edge case about deciding that you want to play an Elf -> Ancient Elf, and take your first level as a Rogue and choose the racket Eldritch Trickster. This is a perfectly valid and interesting combination of ancestry/heritage/class/racket.

This combination would be completely unique if it caused some of the granted features to not function.

There are other cases where combinations are not optimal, but there are (to my knowledge) no other cases of starting options where the features cease to *function*.

If it is the intent of the developers that these two options should not function together, then that's very bad design, because otherwise it is a perfectly viable combination. Using the principal of charity, it would be better to assume they did know what they were doing, and they intend for them to be usable with each other.


Rules as written are
"Special You can’t select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the wizard archetype."

Specifically it says SELECT another DEDICATION feat. In both ancientand eldritch they say "choose a class" not a dedication but a class. And then you gain and not select a dedication feat.

You might argue that it mentions you must meet prerequisites, however, draw your attention to it being a special rule not a prerequisite.


Nyhme wrote:

Rules as written are

"Special You can’t select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the wizard archetype."

Specifically it says SELECT another DEDICATION feat. In both ancientand eldritch they say "choose a class" not a dedication but a class. And then you gain and not select a dedication feat.

You might argue that it mentions you must meet prerequisites, however, draw your attention to it being a special rule not a prerequisite.

I sincerely doubt that they inteded select and gain to be rule defining terms here, especially as all feats are gained in class advancement breakdowns.

RAW it is correct to read it both ways.

RAI it is clear that Paizo don't want someone to have multiple dedications at once, whether Eldritch Trickster is an exception or not requires an errata for specific clarity and or a FAQ.

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