I'm thinking more fiends. I"m classifying high as a 50/50 chance of success.
This is a low level problem.
Tumbling Through a Pit Fiend at level 20 is done on a 2 on the die.The hardest creature to Tumble Through is the Grim Reaper and you only need a 9 on the die at level 20 (which is quite high, but not crazy high considering that it's the highest Reflex save creature of the game).
I've also added a note on Grovel in the Fencer Style. I agree it's absolutely awesome for a feat.
I'm thinking more fiends. I"m classifying high as a 50/50 chance of success.This is a low level problem.
Tumbling Through a Pit Fiend at level 20 is done on a 2 on the die.
The hardest creature to Tumble Through is the Grim Reaper and you only need a 9 on the die at level 20 (which is quite high, but not crazy high considering that it's the highest Reflex save creature of the game).I've also added a note on Grovel in the Fencer Style. I agree it's absolutely awesome for a feat.
What constitutes low level? You spend 1 level out of 20 at lvl 20. We're 8th level now and this problem just came up again. Needing a 2 to tumble by a Pit Fiend is great at lvl 20, but what about the other 19 levels?
Fact is for 8 levels, nearly half of the Swashbuckler's play life there have been some really tough rounds not able to get Panache, which is why the Swashbuckler took After You. It guarantees that should he be fighting some tough creatures with problems tumbling through or getting panache, he can guarantee it as long as he picks right.
Another example is flying creatures. There is no Tumbling Through a creature flying above you like say a flying dragon. The swashbuckler found this out fighting gargoyles and willow wisps attacking from above him.
It makes After You an attractive feat to guarantee you can get Panache to start a fight because a Swashbuckler without panache is not nearly as fun.
What constitutes low level?
Level 1-6. At level 7, Tumbling Through starts to be quite easy. By level 10 it's nearly trivial. And you have the choice to use another save to target through your style.
Is your player playing a non-kobold Fencer to struggle that much with Panache?
My experiences are similar to SuperBidi, at level 7 I was finding failures to gain panche were farly rare. I wonder if you constantly fighting single boss type monsters?
A reddit user by the name tqomins created an excel file with all the Bestiary monsters about a year ago. It contains all the saves so I found it useful to look at what kind of scores you need versus the different monsters. At level 7 you will probably have a base acrobatic skill of 17 (Level + Master Proficiency + 4 Dex) plus a further +1 Item bonus from Bracelets of Dashing or similar Magic Items. So assuming there are no temporary buffs provided, that gives you a skill of 18.
If most encounters are against multiple monsters then even at the higher difficulties (Moderate Challenge and up) you are unlikely to be facing opponents that are higher than your level (And even at level + 1 there is only one monster where the change drops below 50%). If you compare an acrobatics score of 18 against the reflex saves of creatures of equal level, the toughest 3 creatures to suceed against you have a 55% chance to suceed. The other 11 range from a 60% to 80% chance.
If you are facing powerful single boss monsters a lot then this will have an effect. A Severe encounter (APL + 3) would have you up against a single level 10 opponent and they may well have reflex saves that make tumbling difficult (Although you still have a 50% or better chance agaisnt more than half of the level 10 creatures).
This is when using tumbling which targets reflex saves. If you have a way of targetting Will saves the odds shift further in your favour as these tend to be lower.
What constitutes low level?Level 1-6. At level 7, Tumbling Through starts to be quite easy. By level 10 it's nearly trivial. And you have the choice to use another save to target through your style.
Is your player playing a non-kobold Fencer to struggle that much with Panache?
He isn't a kobold. He's an elf wit swashbuckler.
His Tumble Through and Bon Mot works quite often, especially against weak characters.
All I'm saying is it isn't an automatic. This idea that every creature in the book is designed like you see in the bestiary isn't how it is in actual play. You will fight all types of customized creatures or some boss with a high Will and Reflex save or special attacks or forms of movement that make things harder on you.
When it comes up, After You is nice. When my players know getting panache is easy, he uses Tumble Through and Bon Mot liberally. When he runs into a boss encounter or something that seems real tough or has a harsh AoO type of attack he likes to use After You to get Panache then feel out the creature.
The player does this from experience of seeing how hamstringed his character is if he can't Bon Mot or his rolls are around 50/50 or he has to take a big hit to Tumble Through.
It's another tool in the box for those fights against BBEGs that hamstring you with high Reflex and Will saves or some kind of immunity or odd movement.
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It's another tool in the box for those fights against BBEGs that hamstring you with high Reflex and Will saves or some kind of immunity or odd movement.
Clearly. In situations where you have hard time building Panache, especially against a boss (as they have high initiative bonuses), After You works fine.
But, as a Wit Swashbuckler, I would strongly advise him to take One for All. First, the effect is way more interesting than uselessly tumbling through monsters (especially AoO monsters). The DC to meet is high but fixed. And you can do it whatever the distance to monsters as you need to be close to your allies. The only drawback is that you lose your reaction, but bosses or flying monsters should rarely trigger your Riposte anyway.
It's another tool in the box for those fights against BBEGs that hamstring you with high Reflex and Will saves or some kind of immunity or odd movement.Clearly. In situations where you have hard time building Panache, especially against a boss (as they have high initiative bonuses), After You works fine.
But, as a Wit Swashbuckler, I would strongly advise him to take One for All. First, the effect is way more interesting than uselessly tumbling through monsters (especially AoO monsters). The DC to meet is high but fixed. And you can do it whatever the distance to monsters as you need to be close to your allies. The only drawback is that you lose your reaction, but bosses or flying monsters should rarely trigger your Riposte anyway.
I think that one is great too. I'll talk to him about it, but he doesn't like giving up his reaction to help others making it so he can't retort.
I think that one is great too. I'll talk to him about it, but he doesn't like giving up his reaction to help others making it so he can't retort.It's another tool in the box for those fights against BBEGs that hamstring you with high Reflex and Will saves or some kind of immunity or odd movement.Clearly. In situations where you have hard time building Panache, especially against a boss (as they have high initiative bonuses), After You works fine.
But, as a Wit Swashbuckler, I would strongly advise him to take One for All. First, the effect is way more interesting than uselessly tumbling through monsters (especially AoO monsters). The DC to meet is high but fixed. And you can do it whatever the distance to monsters as you need to be close to your allies. The only drawback is that you lose your reaction, but bosses or flying monsters should rarely trigger your Riposte anyway.
At level 10, he can take Reflexive Riposte and solve this issue nearly entirely. Before level 10, it's true that One for All is harder to use. But if he's Master in Diplomacy, he can aid anyone (including attack rolls unlike Inspire Competence) with a +3 circumstance bonus if he meets a DC 30 which is a pretty big bonus.
There is a small timing issue. But overall, it's better to aim at regaining Panache at the end of your turn.
Ending a turn with no Panache reduces the damage of your reactions, and at the start of your turn, if you are in a position where you can't regain Panache, it may completely screw your round.
Regaining Panache at the end of your turn allows you to handle the situations where the dice are not with you, and to have Panache "as much as possible".
It's sometimes better to not use a finisher THIS round, especially if you are in a situation where regaining Panache is not a given (which are the cases we are speaking about).
Yes, clearly. One for All during combat is an emergency ability when you can't easily Tumble Through or use Bon Mot. But it comes third in the order of things you should do to get Panache. At least, unlike the two others, it's not much situational and isn't impacted by many things.
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Yes, clearly. One for All during combat is an emergency ability when you can't easily Tumble Through or use Bon Mot. But it comes third in the order of things you should do to get Panache. At least, unlike the two others, it's not much situational and isn't impacted by many things.
Going for the One for all feat on a bard. See how that works out. So much better than the inspire competence as it also works in combat.
Braggart uses Intimidate which also doesn't provoke but also has the Mental trait in addition to Emotion and Auditory (Although I don’t think that increases the number of excluded creatures much more than those already excluded by the Mental trait). There is also the -4 penalty if they don’t understand the language your using and you can’t repeatedly demoralize the same target until you gain the Braggart’s Exceptional Finisher at Level 9.
But intimidation is also one the best supported cross class abilities in the entire game (hello free action panache gain when i roll initiative). Swashbucklers benefit from this very well, and supports it well in turn.
Intimidating glare removes the problem of language. With background and stylish trick, you get the chance to obtain a skill feat every single one of your first 4 levels. So you practically have to go out of your way to not get it.
Braggart uses Intimidate which also doesn't provoke but also has the Mental trait in addition to Emotion and Auditory (Although I don’t think that increases the number of excluded creatures much more than those already excluded by the Mental trait). There is also the -4 penalty if they don’t understand the language your using and you can’t repeatedly demoralize the same target until you gain the Braggart’s Exceptional Finisher at Level 9.But intimidation is also one the best supported cross class abilities in the entire game (hello free action panache gain when i roll initiative). Swashbucklers benefit from this very well, and supports it well in turn.
Intimidating glare removes the problem of language. With background and stylish trick, you get the chance to obtain a skill feat every single one of your first 4 levels. So you practically have to go out of your way to not get it.
And after one attempt the target becomes immune for 1 minute, which is the entire fight.
And after one attempt the target becomes immune for 1 minute, which is the entire fight.Braggart uses Intimidate which also doesn't provoke but also has the Mental trait in addition to Emotion and Auditory (Although I don’t think that increases the number of excluded creatures much more than those already excluded by the Mental trait). There is also the -4 penalty if they don’t understand the language your using and you can’t repeatedly demoralize the same target until you gain the Braggart’s Exceptional Finisher at Level 9.But intimidation is also one the best supported cross class abilities in the entire game (hello free action panache gain when i roll initiative). Swashbucklers benefit from this very well, and supports it well in turn.
Intimidating glare removes the problem of language. With background and stylish trick, you get the chance to obtain a skill feat every single one of your first 4 levels. So you practically have to go out of your way to not get it.
And you can grab a feat so the enemy can't lower that until after they actually engage you (and if they don't engage you, they are just easier for your allies to take on).
A melee creature will spend its time to come and attack you with its debuffed attacks, saving you your own time. And a magical character might waste its spells on your, rather than a softer target (and Terrifying Resistance and make your save even better).
It has its issues, but it is a solid little debuff ability on a class that has the extra action to spare. Combined with tumble behind, the target takes a -3 to its defense, further increasing your chance to crit, while also making it harder for the target to hit you (and increasing the chance of a bad attack that triggers opportune riposte).
It is a solid option that gives you good numbers at the start, which get better at later levels (derring-do can increase the chance of a crit roll for frightened 2).
And after one attempt the target becomes immune for 1 minute, which is the entire fight.Braggart uses Intimidate which also doesn't provoke but also has the Mental trait in addition to Emotion and Auditory (Although I don’t think that increases the number of excluded creatures much more than those already excluded by the Mental trait). There is also the -4 penalty if they don’t understand the language your using and you can’t repeatedly demoralize the same target until you gain the Braggart’s Exceptional Finisher at Level 9.But intimidation is also one the best supported cross class abilities in the entire game (hello free action panache gain when i roll initiative). Swashbucklers benefit from this very well, and supports it well in turn.
Intimidating glare removes the problem of language. With background and stylish trick, you get the chance to obtain a skill feat every single one of your first 4 levels. So you practically have to go out of your way to not get it.
It's not like making one intimidation check during the fight prevents you from getting Panache entirely, since you can still tumble through enemy spaces.
I really like the braggart too.
Especially considering the Aldori Duelist dedication.
On a critical hit being able to intimidate for free is really good ( not to say that by lvl 15 you wil be able to have the effect of a permanent a keen rune, which is uncommon, for free ).
It's true that you need lvl 9 to spam your intimidate, but since it has a little range, you might intimidate different enemies during a fight ( providing support to other allies ).
Yeah, if you think you can kill the opponent in the next attack, then a fairly sensible turn would be "tumble>finisher>intimidate something else just to get panache".
You could also approach another enemy (possibly with tumble to get panache), but you might choose not to due to tactical considerations. The next target might be in a group (thus they can flank), or you are hanging back to be an AoO wall for a caster (and getting panache before that would make the AoO stronger).
I'm confused on the Gymnast as you wrote it up. When discussing ability scores, you suggest Strength's secondary for them, while when breaking down the styles you suggest they can forget Strength and rely on Dex-to-manoeuvre antics. Is this a forgotten edit, and is Dex-to-manoeuvre a real thing?
I'm confused on the Gymnast as you wrote it up. When discussing ability scores, you suggest Strength's secondary for them, while when breaking down the styles you suggest they can forget Strength and rely on Dex-to-manoeuvre antics. Is this a forgotten edit, and is Dex-to-manoeuvre a real thing?
You only get Dex to maneuvers if you use a Finesse weapon with a proper trait. For example, with a Kukri, you can Trip using Dexterity. But that's all.
So, for most Gymnast, you'll increase Strength for your maneuvers. Now, with a proper weapon choice, you can use Dexterity on some maneuvers (mostly Trip and Disarm (but Disarm doesn't give you Panache unless you take a feat)).
Of particular note is the tekko-kagi I think; it has all of the swash traits you want, plus trip and disarm, plus parry so it works with Twin Parry. Pair it with a stronger mainhand weapon and you've got everything a Gymnast could ask for.
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It is worth pointing out that there is still no official clarification that you can use DEX on the Athletic check to trip even if you have a finesse trip weapon. Ask your GM first to be sure. If you’re playing PFS, then expect table variation. I found playing a Gymnast relying on strength to gain panache very difficult. Between having to boost my strength to 16 at the cost of other stats, still having a lower roll than acrobatics to tumble, and taking MAP on either the maneuver or the attack in a round, I almost never had panache. I switched to Fencer, which has some of the same issues, but without the MAP added in on top of everything else. And I can actually be decent at things other than physical skills.
It is worth pointing out that there is still no official clarification that you can use DEX on the Athletic check to trip even if you have a finesse trip weapon. Ask your GM first to be sure. If you’re playing PFS, then expect table variation. I found playing a Gymnast relying on strength to gain panache very difficult. Between having to boost my strength to 16 at the cost of other stats, still having a lower roll than acrobatics to tumble, and taking MAP on either the maneuver or the attack in a round, I almost never had panache. I switched to Fencer, which has some of the same issues, but without the MAP added in on top of everything else. And I can actually be decent at things other than physical skills.
Strength is till a very good stat for a swashbuckler. I would advise swashbucklers to keep strength and dex as close to equal as possible along with Con and whatever other stat is good for skills or saves.
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Boosting a second stat to 16 on a human means you don’t have anything else higher than a 12 without voluntary flaws. All to get a +1 to damage. You’re better off with a 14 starting strength and more con or investing in a stat that affects more skills. But for a gymnast, if you aren’t going to be able to use dex on maneuvers, you pretty much have to have a 16 strength. Gymnast really should have strength as it’s key ability.
Boosting a second stat to 16 on a human means you don’t have anything else higher than a 12 without voluntary flaws. All to get a +1 to damage. You’re better off with a 14 starting strength and more con or investing in a stat that affects more skills. But for a gymnast, if you aren’t going to be able to use dex on maneuvers, you pretty much have to have a 16 strength. Gymnast really should have strength as it’s key ability.
14 starting strength is fine. If you play to 20, you will end with a 20 strength with ability boosts.
It is worth pointing out that there is still no official clarification that you can use DEX on the Athletic check to trip even if you have a finesse trip weapon. Ask your GM first to be sure. If you’re playing PFS, then expect table variation. I found playing a Gymnast relying on strength to gain panache very difficult. Between having to boost my strength to 16 at the cost of other stats, still having a lower roll than acrobatics to tumble, and taking MAP on either the maneuver or the attack in a round, I almost never had panache. I switched to Fencer, which has some of the same issues, but without the MAP added in on top of everything else. And I can actually be decent at things other than physical skills.
Gymnast is clearly the hardest Style to play with. It is completely unique and hardly comparable to the other styles as it's very hard to cumulate maneuvers and Finishers in an efficient way. But, on the other hand, it's the most violent one with the Exemplary Finisher greatly increasing your damage.
Strength is till a very good stat for a swashbuckler. I would advise swashbucklers to keep strength and dex as close to equal as possible along with Con and whatever other stat is good for skills or saves.
Not much. Strength is important at low level, but ends up as useless as Intelligence at high level. For a non-Gymnast, it's better not to increase it (but starting with an above average Strength is nice for the beginning of the game). And clearly, there's no point, outside Gymnast, to go over 18. 2 stat boosts for 2% extra damage is a too high price to pay. Basic stats for a Swashbuckler are Dex, Con, Wis and Cha.
It is worth pointing out that there is still no official clarification that you can use DEX on the Athletic check to trip even if you have a finesse trip weapon. Ask your GM first to be sure. If you’re playing PFS, then expect table variation. I found playing a Gymnast relying on strength to gain panache very difficult. Between having to boost my strength to 16 at the cost of other stats, still having a lower roll than acrobatics to tumble, and taking MAP on either the maneuver or the attack in a round, I almost never had panache. I switched to Fencer, which has some of the same issues, but without the MAP added in on top of everything else. And I can actually be decent at things other than physical skills.Gymnast is clearly the hardest Style to play with. It is completely unique and hardly comparable to the other styles as it's very hard to cumulate maneuvers and Finishers in an efficient way. But, on the other hand, it's the most violent one with the Exemplary Finisher greatly increasing your damage.
Strength is till a very good stat for a swashbuckler. I would advise swashbucklers to keep strength and dex as close to equal as possible along with Con and whatever other stat is good for skills or saves.Not much. Strength is important at low level, but ends up as useless as Intelligence at high level. For a non-Gymnast, it's better not to increase it (but starting with an above average Strength is nice for the beginning of the game). And clearly, there's no point, outside Gymnast, to go over 18. 2 stat boosts for 2% extra damage is a too high price to pay. Basic stats for a Swashbuckler are Dex, Con, Wis and Cha.
My players generally like maxed out strength. 2% is 2%. And when you're fighting resistant creatures and those immune to precision, every point is nice.
I think for Gymnast my favorite build would be one where you aren't really attacking at all; a whip swash going into Marshal can keep their panache and focus on debuffing while the Barbarian happily takes additional zero MAP attacks. It's pretty weird but I think it'd be more effective than trying to balance your own maneuvers and strikes.
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I think for Gymnast my favorite build would be one where you aren't really attacking at all; a whip swash going into Marshal can keep their panache and focus on debuffing while the Barbarian happily takes additional zero MAP attacks. It's pretty weird but I think it'd be more effective than trying to balance your own maneuvers and strikes.
In other words, a swashbuckler that wields a barbarian?
I think for Gymnast my favorite build would be one where you aren't really attacking at all; a whip swash going into Marshal can keep their panache and focus on debuffing while the Barbarian happily takes additional zero MAP attacks. It's pretty weird but I think it'd be more effective than trying to balance your own maneuvers and strikes.In other words, a swashbuckler that wields a barbarian?
Basically, yes. I admit I really love the Marshal archetype, it's great for these types of characters for whom making Strikes is kind of awkward.
I think for Gymnast my favorite build would be one where you aren't really attacking at all; a whip swash going into Marshal can keep their panache and focus on debuffing while the Barbarian happily takes additional zero MAP attacks. It's pretty weird but I think it'd be more effective than trying to balance your own maneuvers and strikes.In other words, a swashbuckler that wields a barbarian?
'She may not be a finesse weapon but 1d12+4 plus rage damage is nothing to sneeze at ... '
Meanwhile I think I'm stealing this for some idle character building. Whip to mess with enemies, natural weapon for bad times..reach, manoeuvres, and can still access Dueling Parry due to the whip (since I assume that, say, you can't use your bite or claws to meet the 'weapon' requirement).
Guide updated after the new errata (Finesse doesn't allow to use Dexterity for maneuvers anymore).
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Guide updated after the new errata (Finesse doesn't allow to use Dexterity for maneuvers anymore).
So, are Gymnast Swashbucklers basically a dead option now? The strength and Athletics investments make it seem markedly worse than other Swashbucklers.
I guess as long as you don't care about having out of combat utility you can forget about CHA and focus STR, DEX, CON, and WIS.
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If I properly read the description of the bladed hoop, you only have the d8 if you hold it with 2 hands. If you make it spin it's a d6 of damage with the Free Hand trait.
For Swashbuckler, it's interesting because you can have a free hand (and benefit from the free hand stance which is lower level than the 2-weapon stance) and still have 2 weapons (and benefit from Dual Finisher). I think it's nice to have one with another agile weapon. For me it's a valid weapon setup.
Also, I know this quote is months old and you may have already learned this but keeping the bladed hoop spinning has the manipulate trait which triggers reactions. Unless there's a rule that says free actions with that trait don't trigger attacks of opportunity and the like, it doesn't seem that great.
Of course, maybe dragging out the attack of opportunity for a possible riposte is exactly what we want to do to make sure that even when enemies don't attack the swashbuckler we can still maybe parry and riposte.
Guide updated after the new errata (Finesse doesn't allow to use Dexterity for maneuvers anymore).So, are Gymnast Swashbucklers basically a dead option now? The strength and Athletics investments make it seem markedly worse than other Swashbucklers.
I guess as long as you don't care about having out of combat utility you can forget about CHA and focus STR, DEX, CON, and WIS.
all the more reason to allow gymnasts to dump dex by giving them str as a class ability boost.
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all the more reason to allow gymnasts to dump dex by giving them str as a class ability boost.Guide updated after the new errata (Finesse doesn't allow to use Dexterity for maneuvers anymore).So, are Gymnast Swashbucklers basically a dead option now? The strength and Athletics investments make it seem markedly worse than other Swashbucklers.
I guess as long as you don't care about having out of combat utility you can forget about CHA and focus STR, DEX, CON, and WIS.
A better solution is to ignore the clarification for home games. Swashbucklers need high Dex for AC unless they also have a way to get Heavy Armor Proficiency. And at that point you're less a swashbuckler and more a fighter.
It was odd that Gymnasts were less MAD than other swashbuckler styles, since they could use DEX to trip if they had the right weapon, but the trade-off was their style's unique method of gaining panache incurred MAP. Now Gymnasts are as MAD as other styles and still have the extra MAP.
I won't be applying that specific errata to my home games, that's for sure.
Yeah the Gymnast is a dead concept now. Even the funky gymnast support builds that don't care about damage don't work anymore.
They really need to patch the Gymnast being able to use finesse weapons for certain maneuvers via a feat or feature.
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My recently started AoA game has a Gymnast Swashbuckler with a short sword and Str 16 (to go with her Dex 18). All decided pre-errata.
It's not an optimal character, I'll grant you, but 3d6+3 is pretty hefty damage at 1st level, and continued focus on Str will continue to help damage, maneuvers, and Athletics more generally as she rises in level. At 10th, she'll gain the ability to roll twice and take the better result on combat maneuvers, which is just ridiculous.
The errata kills the Str 10 Gymnast build, but the maxed Str version has always been viable, if not optimal, and remains just as much so now as it ever was, IMO. It's not my style personally due to a lack of non-combat options, but not everyone wants too many of those.
all the more reason to allow gymnasts to dump dex by giving them str as a class ability boost.Guide updated after the new errata (Finesse doesn't allow to use Dexterity for maneuvers anymore).So, are Gymnast Swashbucklers basically a dead option now? The strength and Athletics investments make it seem markedly worse than other Swashbucklers.
I guess as long as you don't care about having out of combat utility you can forget about CHA and focus STR, DEX, CON, and WIS.
A better solution is to ignore the clarification for home games. Swashbucklers need high Dex for AC unless they also have a way to get Heavy Armor Proficiency. And at that point you're less a swashbuckler and more a fighter.
{. . .}
Which begs the question: Why ISN'T a Swashbuckler a specialization of Fighter? (Of course, they would have had to build the Fighter class with some kind of specialization choice analogous to Rogue Rackets.)
(Related to the above: Just checking on Archives of Nethys for 2nd Edition: Every class released so far has something equivalent to Rogue Racket or Swashbuckler Style EXCEPT Fighter and Monk, while Wizard has **2** independently selectable specializations.)
^For Investigator, I can see your point, since Investigator has its Methodologies and Rogue has its Rackets (although I would have still leaned towards trying to integrate them, and then naming the Methodologies/Rackets in 2 or more families for assistance with organization). But Fighter doesn't have any equivalent -- should have had a Regimen (analogous to Swashbuckler Style), and then Swashbuckler could have fit in.
Oh well. Too late.
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Guide updated after the new errata (Finesse doesn't allow to use Dexterity for maneuvers anymore).So, are Gymnast Swashbucklers basically a dead option now? The strength and Athletics investments make it seem markedly worse than other Swashbucklers.
I guess as long as you don't care about having out of combat utility you can forget about CHA and focus STR, DEX, CON, and WIS.
Not at all.
The removal to Dexterity-based maneuvers is obviously hitting the Swashbuckler as a Dexterity-based class. Now, is it that much of a hit?Non-Gymnast Swashbucklers will just drop their kukris and draw their rapiers. So, in my opinion, it's more a nerf of options than a nerf of the class (even if it's still a nerf to lose a few options).
Gymnast Swashbucklers, on the other hand, are the only Swashbucklers who can dump Charisma and pump Strength like crazy as they don't have any Charisma-based way of gaining Panache unlike the other styles. So, in my opinion, playing a low Strength high Charisma Gymnast is weird, as the other styles are better fit for such a character. I expect most Gymnasts to have high Strength. As such, the nerf is just a -1 to maneuvers using one of your weapon traits. So, like the other Swashbucklers, the Gymnasts will replace their kukris by rapiers and it'll be fine.
Actually, the Gymnast is in my opinion the style that takes the smallest hit, as you'll still keep the options, it's just that you'll take a -1 to Trip or Disarm for another weapon trait. The other styles on the contrary completely lose the ability to draw a kukri to trip with Dexterity.
So, overall, I don't think we can scream that the Gymnast is dead. Only low Strength Gymnasts are and they were strange builds already.
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Which begs the question: Why ISN'T a Swashbuckler a specialization of Fighter? (Of course, they would have had to build the Fighter class with some kind of specialization choice analogous to Rogue Rackets.)
Fighter and Swashbuckler have nothing in common.
Fighter is a very easy to build class, with all its abilities in its chassis. Its feats are fine, but not incredible.Swashbuckler is a very complex class to play, with a weaker chassis and outstanding feats.
There are actually less differences between a Barbarian and a Fighter than a Swashbuckler and a Fighter. The Swashbuckler really deserves his class and is in my opinion a success (its only drawback is how it plays at low levels).
^I wouldn't have minded a merger of Barbarian and Fighter.
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The basic thing to keep in mind is "how much stuff" a subclass or an archetype can have, and whether that's enough to support all the themes of a class.
There's no benefit to "just having a small number of classes" (the difference between 12 and 22 is sort of irrelevant) and there was no serious effort made to combining the Barbarian or Ranger with the Fighter, and the Swashbuckler as a class honestly supports its themes better than the existing Barbarian and Ranger classes do.
The only classes from PF1 that aren't likely to get the full class treatment are the ones where the core themes are compatible with a variety of other classes (e.g. how the Cavalier and Vigilante are archetypes are- since anybody can fight from a horse or wear a mask).
Finally got to read the whole guide. Short and to the point without cutting off too much -- I like it (although I also like Tarondor's great in-depth guides -- each type has its place).
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Panache Paragon: Awesome on paper, but with a very little issue: What's the point in having 4 actions per round when you can just make one attack? At level 20, most of your Panache actions will succeed on a 2. So you have 4 actions, one for a Finisher, one to regain Panache and 2 for...? {. . .}
I'm not Trained enough in 2nd Edition yet to know if this would hose something, but would using the extra action to reposition as needed mess up your Panache chain? What about casting a spell, if you took a spellcasting Dedication earlier (and by the time you get this, you'll have spells of up to 8th level, so that enemies might not be able to feel safe just avoiding you)?
Yeah the Gymnast is a dead concept now. Even the funky gymnast support builds that don't care about damage don't work anymore.
I don't see that yet. I do think the errata needs to be updated, because the errata has created a gap. But GM should still be using DEX for maneuvers for finesse weapons, because these should still be using the discretion given to them by the base rules. They are supposed to be substituting in alternative ability scores.
What I am saying is there is still good rules support for this. Your claim that it doesn't work is not clear cut. It should work and most GMs will allow it to work. Its just a pity it is not expressed in a clear cut way any more.