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I have always recognized that Diplomacy changes a person's attitude for a time, my argument has always been about long term effects. The nearest things to "friendship" and "loyalty" in rules (besides the parts of the rulebook that you consider "flavor text") is the Leadership feat. And what defines the Leadership score?
Leadership Score: Your base Leadership score equals your
level plus your Charisma modifier. In order to take into account negative Charisma modifiers, this table allows for very low Leadership scores, but you must still be 7th level or higher in order to gain the Leadership feat. Outside factors can affect your Leadership score, as detailed above.
Even in the "Outside factors" I don't see any mention of Diplomacy.
Please cite where I have spoken against Diplomacy changing people's attitude for a short time.
From what I see either I have bee very bad at explaining what I am saying or you have decided that I was saying something different and never really read what I wrote.
Is there a system for "First Impressions" or passive friend making keyed off Charisma I missed?
The low CHA character has to put more effort into this and has to watch themselves more carefully or they are going to slip up and let their true feeling out.
because someone with a low charisma automatically, secretly has ill intent. Just like how all high charisma people are automatically benevolent.
It seems more realistic to me that, yes the low charisma person has to expend effort. But it's because they don't pick up on social cues and have a natural tendency to say the wrong thing at the wrong time. They aren't jerks, they're just inept.
Thankfully, its possible for even low charisma people to make friends and I mean the real deal.
"oh, bob? yeah he's rough around the edges but once you get to know him he's a great guy. He'd give you the shirt off of his own back if he thought you needed it more."
Someone like that has loyal friends in spite of their low charisma and maybe they aren't even very diplomatic, friends =/= followers. Someone can be a follower even if they've never met the person they follow.
What was this thread even about? Something to do with the weight of your armor affecting your dexterity?
Is there a system for "First Impressions" or passive friend making keyed off Charisma I missed?
Not really, the APs have starting attitudes regardless of how Charismatic you are, it's a matter of Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate rolls to change that temporarily. There are things that affect your diplomacy roll to get someone to help you (the target being attracted to you can add a +2 or more in some cases, simply having someone at a better attitude than hostile is an effective +5 for every step, etc.) but people have their own reasons for liking your or not liking you when you show up that is completely independent of stats.
so instead you'll just constantly throw encounters at them that they are assured of failing at?That's not what I said. Not even close. It's actually the exact opposite.
nah, you said you'll throw them Str based skill checks, CMB checks and all sorts of other tests to capitalize on their low strength. That is throwing encounters at them that they'll constantly fail. I'm sorry you're not bright enough to realize that.
That you don't seem to make a difference between a 3 in an ability score in AD&D and a Pathfinder player taking a 9 pre-racial says a lot about you.
dumping a non-viable stat to boost a viable stat is the same no matter the edition and often the same as a matter of why it is being done. Again your inability to grasp a pretty simple concept is telling.
I have always recognized that Diplomacy changes a person's attitude for a time, my argument has always been about long term effects.
/.../
Please cite where I have spoken against Diplomacy changing people's attitude for a short time.
You've claimed that a low-cha character is unlikable no matter their skills, and then you've said that a high-cha character is better at making friends no matter their skills. I've pointed out that making people like you, albeit for a duration, is part of Diplomacy. So a low-cha character can be likable and having high charisma doesn't automatically make people like you.
Do you agree with the fact that Diplomacy can be used to make people like you?
Yes/No.
(Around now is when you start bringing up the duration to deflect from what's written in the rules, ending with a real-world example that's entirely subjective. Please don't do that this time.)
The nearest things to "friendship" and "loyalty" in rules (besides the parts of the rulebook that you consider "flavor text") is the Leadership feat. And what defines the Leadership score?
/.../
Even in the "Outside factors" I don't see any mention of Diplomacy.
But that still brings us back full circle. Your Leadership score is based on charisma, your level, and outside factors. If my Leadership score is way higher than the Paladin's, am I then not better at securing "friendship" and "loyalty"?
Not to mention that there are ways to base your Leadership on Constitution, Dexterity, and Intelligence.
This is why I flat out do not allow stats below an 8, AFTER racial modifiers are applied. I haven't had anyone use age modifiers, so I haven't decided if it will be allowed to drop below 8, yet.
A 7 in any stat, though, your character sucks.
The Fighter/Barbarian should politely tell you to go F yourself when you ask them to carry your gear. Or they should sell it as if it is loot they picked up.
Gold. Gold will encumber your character. Pathetic. GTFOH.
I have absolutely no sympathy for players who dump stats.
I will punish you with stat damage/drain... whether you have dumped your stats, or not... so, good luck.
A 7, really? And you did it on purpose? Lol.
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The low CHA character has to put more effort into this and has to watch themselves more carefully or they are going to slip up and let their true feeling out.because someone with a low charisma automatically, secretly has ill intent. Just like how all high charisma people are automatically benevolent.
It seems more realistic to me that, yes the low charisma person has to expend effort. But it's because they don't pick up on social cues and have a natural tendency to say the wrong thing at the wrong time. They aren't jerks, they're just inept.
Thankfully, its possible for even low charisma people to make friends and I mean the real deal.
"oh, bob? yeah he's rough around the edges but once you get to know him he's a great guy. He'd give you the shirt off of his own back if he thought you needed it more."
Someone like that has loyal friends in spite of their low charisma and maybe they aren't even very diplomatic, friends =/= followers. Someone can be a follower even if they've never met the person they follow.
True, if we use Leadership as an example, there is a bunch of modifiers to the leadership score.
The actual long term beahvior of the character should be the primary factor for his/her ability to make friends, but that should be adjudicated by the GM at the table, not by any characteristic or skill.That notwithstanding I will give a bit more leeway to a character with high charisma.
I doubt that a lot of gamers have a charisma above 14 or below 8, so role-playing someone with those values is difficult.
What was this thread even about? Something to do with the weight of your armor affecting your dexterity?
My side discussion was about dumping stats and saying that it has no consequences as you can replace them with skill and magic items. Then it focused on charisma in particular.
Hmm. Great points in this recent conversation. Diplomacy. Charisma. Leadership. Stat drain.
It's all really helped make a convincing argument that the weight of armour WILL in fact affect speed and max dex.
You forget that a person with 20 ranks in Bluff and Skill Unlock (Bluff) can rewrite the rules of the game for 1 hour every session.
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This is why I flat out do not allow stats below an 8, AFTER racial modifiers are applied. I haven't had anyone use age modifiers, so I haven't decided if it will be allowed to drop below 8, yet.
A 7 in any stat, though, your character sucks.
The Fighter/Barbarian should politely tell you to go F yourself when you ask them to carry your gear. Or they should sell it as if it is loot they picked up.
Gold. Gold will encumber your character. Pathetic. GTFOH.
I have absolutely no sympathy for players who dump stats.
I will punish you with stat damage/drain... whether you have dumped your stats, or not... so, good luck.
A 7, really? And you did it on purpose? Lol.
A word of advice, I would rethink the tone of your posts. The only thing using language like this convinces me of is that I'm glad to have never met you.
The delivery of my last post was very abrasive and uncalled for. I apologize.
The very decision to dump stats is a messed up mindset, in my opinion. You dump your Strength to a 7, and milk an extra point (maybe 2?) towards your favored stat. And now you have to weigh down other party members with your gear because you are too weak to carry more than your armor and gold? Your selfish point buy decision is a detriment to the party.
Those few extra points for your favored stat BETTER make you so useful and awesome that people want to carry your gear for you... is all I'm saying.
The delivery of my last post was very abrasive and uncalled for. I apologize.
The very decision to dump stats is a messed up mindset, in my opinion. You dump your Strength to a 7, and milk an extra point (maybe 2?) towards your favored stat. And now you have to weigh down other party members with your gear because you are too weak to carry more than your armor and gold? Your selfish point buy decision is a detriment to the party.
Those few extra points for your favored stat BETTER make you so useful and awesome that people want to carry your gear for you... is all I'm saying.
I rarely do point buy and when I have I don't remember dropping a stat to 7 (though it's possible I have). However, any time I have a character with a low strength. I always figure its on me to figure out how to not be encumbered. More often then not it means I can't buy all the things I want to and instead am forced to pare down my gear to what's essential. If after doing that I'm still overburdened then I need either a pack animal to carry things or a magical solution (sometimes both! my necromancer had a skeleton horse to carry things like camping gear). The thought of asking another character to carry my gear for me never crosses my mind.
The only time stat dumping bothers me is when a player uses it to get something for nothing. "My character has a 5 charisma but they are mute and are concealed from head to toe in robes. My high charisma familiar does all of my talking for me."
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This is why I flat out do not allow stats below an 8, AFTER racial modifiers are applied. I haven't had anyone use age modifiers, so I haven't decided if it will be allowed to drop below 8, yet.
A 7 in any stat, though, your character sucks.
The Fighter/Barbarian should politely tell you to go F yourself when you ask them to carry your gear. Or they should sell it as if it is loot they picked up.
Gold. Gold will encumber your character. Pathetic. GTFOH.
I have absolutely no sympathy for players who dump stats.
I will punish you with stat damage/drain... whether you have dumped your stats, or not... so, good luck.
A 7, really? And you did it on purpose? Lol.
So speaketh the minister of approved fun.
Minister of Approved Fun... is that what the GM is called these days?
It's not that you target their glaring weaknesses all the time. You simply harass everyone's stats and ability scores, constantly.
A little Dex damage here, and some Str drain there... maybe even a dash of Disease and a sprinkle of Poison. A Spider Swarm is a CR1 encounter, so these things can start immediately.
Players better get used to it and prepare themselves accordingly. It's not like I'm going to take it easy because someone chose to dump their stats. I am not picking on them, they set themselves up for failure.
nah, you said you'll throw them Str based skill checks, CMB checks and all sorts of other tests to capitalize on their low strength. That is throwing encounters at them that they'll constantly fail.so instead you'll just constantly throw encounters at them that they are assured of failing at?That's not what I said. Not even close. It's actually the exact opposite.
No, I didn't. Stop lying. I gave examples of how a GM could challenge a 7-strength-character. I didn't say I do that, I didn't say to use them all, and most of all I didn't make any indication or recommendation of doing it "constantly".
dumping a non-viable stat to boost a viable stat is the same no matter the edition and often the same as a matter of why it is being done.
Again your inability to grasp a pretty simple concept is telling.
Oh, I grasp it, I just vehemently disagree. I consider the mindset that you're displaying here (that all things somewhat negative are equally bad) an extremely negative character trait. Unless you literally believe that 3 and 9 are "the same".
It's all really helped make a convincing argument that the weight of armour WILL in fact affect speed and max dex.
That discussion was finished when I quoted the respective rules explicitly saying just that in 6th post in this thread. The "convincing argument" was made, it doesn't need any further help.
@VoodistMonk: If you keep it up like this, you're going to need a second apology thread soon. The main issue with your posts is not the abrasive language, but your extremely dismissive attitude of anyone who doesn't play exactly like you do.
I am very lenient and forgiving on most things, but stat dumping is something I consider purely munchkin madness. It's selfish, borderline murderhobo, and often a detriment to the team.
As the GM, I shouldn't have to worry about which CR1 encounter I throw at the level one party. If a wet fart drops your character, then you have just left your party in a worse spot. It's not really fair for their characters to suffer because of your choices... but such is life in a team environment, I suppose.
I have yet to see a single example of where dumping stats below an 8 was necessary to the production of a successful character. So if someone is dumping stats below an 8, it probably means they're up to something sly. And I don't like it.
Now, none of these beliefs of mine are reason or excuse to be rude or dismissive to anyone else. I don't mean to get worked up, especially over such things so inconsequential as a fantasy game. I shouldn't let such trivial $#!+ get under my skin. What's it matter what their stats are, as long as everyone is having fun. It's not like you can fantasy game incorrectly. Lol.
As long as your decisions don't impede on the group having fun, then all is well that ends well.
I hope you aren't hitting level 1 players with drain.
Well that would just be cruel and unusual. I believe that to do so would also require an inappropriate CR to accomplish... I don't know of any CR1 encounters that bring ability drain to the table. Nor would I use it if it does exist.
I don't go out of my way to choose the most godawful encounters possible. I used the random encounter charts for 5 out of 6 books in Kingmaker. Whatever Paizo deemed appropriate as far as that's concerned.
I do, however, think swarms are hilarious. And I will use them without remorse. It's dark and damp and this passage hasn't been traveled in decades... does it make sense for there to maybe be a spiderweb or seven? Was that a rat? Are there rats in this old, rotten place? Swarms are an excellent way to test the party's level of preparation, teamwork, and knowing when to run.
But, I haven't done any drain at level one. So far...
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The only time stat dumping bothers me is when a player uses it to get something for nothing. "My character has a 5 charisma but they are mute and are concealed from head to toe in robes. My high charisma familiar does all of my talking for me."
That sounds awesome. One man's trash, another's treasure.
As for stat dumping, if you don't like it, don't allow it. Most times I see stat dumping are either because their class/character theme doesn't need or want it. The lower the point buy the more likely it'll happen too since the game demands certain levels of efficacy.
I do lean towards somewhat inflated point buys... for my Kingmaker campaign I did 35 minus the chosen race's RP cost. So most of your standard races ended up with a little more than 25pt buys. The Kobold got 30. One player made a custom race, and subtracted the RP they used to build it, can't remember what they ended up with for points... the campaign started two years ago.
I don't even know if I will use point buy next time. Rolling for stats is fun, and all, but leaves too much to chance. I simply cannot deal with the possibility of the entire party ending up with crappy stats. Maybe just use the Epic Fantasy array, and be done with it? I don't know, yet.
With the Epic Fantasy array, you would have to choose a race with quite the penalty to start with a stat below an 8... like a Kobold putting the 10 in Strength... and I guess I should probably just allow it? They would be blown away by natural wind, swept away by the lightest of currents... bye bye little buddy... the party would have to keep their Kobold on a leash. Lol.
I do lean towards somewhat inflated point buys... for my Kingmaker campaign I did 35 minus the chosen race's RP cost. So most of your standard races ended up with a little more than 25pt buys. The Kobold got 30. One player made a custom race, and subtracted the RP they used to build it, can't remember what they ended up with for points... the campaign started two years ago.
I don't even know if I will use point buy next time. Rolling for stats is fun, and all, but leaves too much to chance. I simply cannot deal with the possibility of the entire party ending up with crappy stats. Maybe just use the Epic Fantasy array, and be done with it? I don't know, yet.
With the Epic Fantasy array, you would have to choose a race with quite the penalty to start with a stat below an 8... like a Kobold putting the 10 in Strength... and I guess I should probably just allow it? They would be blown away by natural wind, swept away by the lightest of currents... bye bye little buddy... the party would have to keep their Kobold on a leash. Lol.
Ironically, that makes advanced race +2's to ability scores more worth it than PB for any ability you want higher than a 13.
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I hope you aren't hitting level 1 players with drain.
Short term, at level 1 the difference between drain and damage to stat is very little difference. Generally, you don't have to lesser restoration potions and the spell isn't available until level 3.
If one of your stats is reduced to 0 by damage you are comatose or dead and you need at least a day of rest to recover one or two points.With the FAQ about temporary ability changes a temporary reduction in strength affects your capacity to carry things, so a low strength character could rapidly become incapable to carry his equipment.
At level 1 diseases can be very crippling and several low CR creatures carry diseases.
But at least a level 1 character can rest and recover damage, whereas they're 6 levels away from being able to remove drain, at best (9 if they have a warpriest instead of a cleric). Sure if I take 6 str dmg as a fighter 1, I suck at combat for at least 3 days, but if I take 6 drain, my career is over.
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But at least a level 1 character can rest and recover damage, whereas they're 6 levels away from being able to remove drain, at best (9 if they have a warpriest instead of a cleric). Sure if I take 6 str dmg as a fighter 1, I suck at combat for at least 3 days, but if I take 6 drain, my career is over.
From what VoodistMonk said he his hitting his players with CR appropriate monsters. AFAIK there are no CR 1 or lower monsters that drain stat and very few that are CR 5 or lower.
With about 800 gp you can pay a cleric to cast restoration for stat drain, it is a steep cost but still affordable for low-level characters.
Paying a cleric to cast restoration for a drained level cost 1,700 gp and low CR monsters that drain levels are relatively common.
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I do lean towards somewhat inflated point buys... for my Kingmaker campaign I did 35 minus the chosen race's RP cost. So most of your standard races ended up with a little more than 25pt buys. The Kobold got 30...
I find it hilarious that you are so adamant against having low stats, saying players use it to get inflated high scores, then give your players double standard point buy.
Personally I like having weaknesses and dislike high point buys. For me, the difference between a 15 and a 25 point buy is not that my main stat is any higher. With a 15 point buy, my pc is a killing machine that has some weaknesses and might actually be challenged on occasion. With a 25 point buy, my pc is just an unstoppable killing machine.
I do lean towards somewhat inflated point buys... for my Kingmaker campaign I did 35 minus the chosen race's RP cost. So most of your standard races ended up with a little more than 25pt buys. The Kobold got 30...I find it hilarious that you are so adamant against having low stats, saying players use it to get inflated high scores, then give your players double standard point buy.
Personally I like having weaknesses and dislike high point buys. For me, the difference between a 15 and a 25 point buy is not that my main stat is any higher. With a 15 point buy, my pc is a killing machine that has some weaknesses and might actually be challenged on occasion. With a 25 point buy, my pc is just an unstoppable killing machine.
(X) Doubt
The difference between a 15 and 25 pb character is that your secondary and tertiary stat characters like Monks or Paladins get a lot more viable whereas your primary stat characters just get another +1 to their DCs mostly. Being 5-10% more likely to survive something or hit something does not make you an unstoppable killing machine.
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So tell me, who gets to decide what impedes the group?
The majority of the players with which you play.
If the majority think that playing backstabbing guys that don't trust each other is fun and you want to play a straight-up paladin, you are unfun.If the majority want to play straight-up characters and you want to play an anti-paladin, you are unfun.
"Unfun" is not an absolute value, it is relative.
A different player group will have a different definition of unfun.
If the GM finds the playing style of the majority of his players unfun it is better if he finds different players that forcing them to adapt to his definition of fun.
On the topic of specifically party comp, yes bad party comp can lead direct impediment in a group and to easy deaths which most people would consider not fun. There are many things that make the game unfun for anybody, part of the GMs job is actually finding out what is fun for whom and adjusting himself or who is playing so everyone's idea of fun is close enough for an agreeable game.
Roleplaying KKK members yes, as roleplay isn't about real life, if they are actually or want to become KKK members in real life, they're bad people for different reasons than roleplay. In either case, if the black player has a problem with it, why is he wanting to stick around? In either case, the strawman has more validity to it than the counterargument.
And yes, we get that it was a question about mechanics, that has since been answered and someone else said that "dumping stats for more numbers is universally bad" so the obvious defense is roleplay done right.
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So tell me, who gets to decide what impedes the group?The majority of the players with which you play.
If the majority think that playing backstabbing guys that don't trust each other is fun and you want to play a straight-up paladin, you are unfun.
If the majority want to play straight-up characters and you want to play an anti-paladin, you are unfun.
"Unfun" is not an absolute value, it is relative.
A different player group will have a different definition of unfun.If the GM finds the playing style of the majority of his players unfun it is better if he finds different players that forcing them to adapt to his definition of fun.
So if 3 players + the gm want to roleplay KKK members and the fourth player, who is black, thinks that isn't ok, he's being unfun? Majority rules, after all and anyone else is unfun.
But this whole argument aside, please remember questions have context and that context was about purely mechanical character building decisions, not about roleplaying ideas.
For that group? Sure. Again, relative, not absolute. Three players and the GM being jerks doesn't change that they have fun being jerks.
"Purely mechanical character building". Yes, it can be unfun for some players. I had players that love to make characters where the build is all around role-playing and that not only don't care about combat efficiency but even find distasteful the research of combat efficiency, and players that suffer if some member of the group is less than efficient in combat.
You don't mix them in the same group, if possible.
As long as your decisions don't impede on the group having fun, then all is well that ends well.So tell me, who gets to decide what impedes the group? Does playing a rogue instead of a wizard impede the group? What about playing a monk? What if you want to play a halfling instead of a human?
Another question, do you know who Raistlin is? What about Elric?
Without consulting the Google, no, I do not know who Raistlin or Elric are.
Who gets to decide? That's a silly question. Lol. I do, of course. As GM, I am the Decider.
I don't care if you play Rogues or Wizards... if you want to roleplay a KKK member, I am going to ask to speak to you outside, and kick your freaking @$$.
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I don't care if you play Rogues or Wizards... if you want to roleplay a KKK member, I am going to ask to speak to you outside, and kick your freaking @$$.
If it is a game of Call of Cthulhu in which they are the cultist that get a band end, once it can even be fun.
Playing the bad guys sometimes can give an insight into things, as long as you are an adult. Being an Italian with way less baggage about slavery helps, too. We did our share of bad things and racism, including helping in the Shoah, but we were little involved in the slave trade.
I'm all for playing the bad guys. But there's certain bad guys that only bad people want to play.
We can all be pirates, yar! We can all be Rogues. We can old west bandits, too...
Chances are, these will offend absolutely nobody. Honestly, you have a higher chance of being mauled to death by a deer than meeting a victim of piracy. So fly that Jolly Roger high, sing loud and proud... yo-ho, and all that other madness.
However, you literally cannot fathom how often racists are racists. It is guaranteed to offend someone. It SHOULD offend EVERYONE.
You want to play a slaver, you do it at a different freaking table, is all I'm saying. Any time I have a say in the matter, that $#!+ isn't an option at any table I am at.