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Yeah. Additionally, if Slowed effects minions then so would Quickened (allowing you to spend one action to Command them and have them do three in response), and that opens up a serious can of worms in terms of power level.
I think it generally works better if minions ignore both those conditions entirely, and the strict RAW seem to agree that this is the case.
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Technically, minions do not have a turn and Slowed kicks in when you take your turn, so they have two actions.
Whether that's intended or your GM will agree with it is another question, but those are the RAW.
Wouldn't this also mean they don't have a turn to end and so wouldn't take persistent damage?
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Technically, minions do not have a turn and Slowed kicks in when you take your turn, so they have two actions.
Whether that's intended or your GM will agree with it is another question, but those are the RAW.
I disagree. Just because they act on your turn doesn't mean they don't have a turn. It's just coexistent with yours.
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Wouldn't this also mean they don't have a turn to end and so wouldn't take persistent damage?Possibly not by a technical reading. Unlike the Slowed/Quickened thing that doesn't add anything to the game though, so I'd ignore it.
I would disagree that that slowed/quickened adds something to the game, but that is a subjective opinion. I like my rules to be relatively consistent and don't want to have to figure out on a case to case basis when a zombie has a start/end of turn and when it doesn't.
I think a better argument is that the zombies slow 'feature' and the slow spell both give slow 1 (unless the save is a critical failure) and redundant conditions don't stack.
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I like my rules to be relatively consistent and don't want to have to figure out on a case to case basis when a zombie has a start/end of turn and when it doesn't.
I think a better argument is that the zombies slow 'feature' and the slow spell both give slow 1 (unless the save is a critical failure) and redundant conditions don't stack.
Even going away from zombies and their naturally slowed state what I find it rather strange that a spell might affect one and the same creatures differently, especially if you have a mix of the normal version and minions in the same encounter.
Just imagine a room containing a Necromancer, 2 independent zombies and 2 zombies that are directly controlled by the Necromancer (aka as his minions). So the Necromancer can haste himself and any of the regular zombies but not his minions?
Or an elemental lord that has some normal elementals as bodyguards and the ability to summon additional elementals as per the summon rules. So any slow effect can hit the lord and the regular elementals but not the summoned ones?
Note that as a player I am very much aware of the necessities of treating minions different from a game mechanics kind of view (e.g. to avoid action multiplication), however from an character ingame perspective it still is kinda weird.
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Wouldn't this also mean they don't have a turn to end and so wouldn't take persistent damage?Possibly not by a technical reading. Unlike the Slowed/Quickened thing that doesn't add anything to the game though, so I'd ignore it.I would disagree that that slowed/quickened adds something to the game, but that is a subjective opinion. I like my rules to be relatively consistent and don't want to have to figure out on a case to case basis when a zombie has a start/end of turn and when it doesn't.
I think a better argument is that the zombies slow 'feature' and the slow spell both give slow 1 (unless the save is a critical failure) and redundant conditions don't stack.
The issue isn't zombies getting hit with slow spells, though. The issue is that zombies become pretty useless as summons if they only get one action when you command them.
I've been running minions as affected by slow and Quickened, but my minions have almost all been animal companions.
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I disagree. Just because they act on your turn doesn't mean they don't have a turn. It's just coexistent with yours.
It is indeed arguable they get a turn, but their turn gives them zero actions. Only your action to command them grants them actions, so this still doesn't interact with Slowed or Quickened.
I would disagree that that slowed/quickened adds something to the game, but that is a subjective opinion. I like my rules to be relatively consistent and don't want to have to figure out on a case to case basis when a zombie has a start/end of turn and when it doesn't.
As I note above another interpretation, which you might prefer, is that they get a turn, but get no actions on it, so it still doesn't interact with Slowed or Quickened. That's probably the interpretation I'm going with going forward.
I think a better argument is that the zombies slow 'feature' and the slow spell both give slow 1 (unless the save is a critical failure) and redundant conditions don't stack.
The issue with this is that the Minion trait does not impose the Slowed condition. So yeah, Slow won't work on zombies, but going by this interpretation a zombie minion still only gets one action per turn.
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Minions: "A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn "
The minion trait does not change the number of actions a creature has per turn, it only imposes a limit on the number of actions that said creature can use per turn. So hasting a minion doesn't do anything, you can give a minion as many actions as you want, it can still only use 2 of them. Slowing a minion is only relevant if you can give it slow 2 as it is already limited to only taking 2 of its 3 actions.
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Minions: "A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn "
The minion trait does not change the number of actions a creature has per turn, it only imposes a limit on the number of actions that said creature can use per turn. So hasting a minion doesn't do anything, you can give a minion as many actions as you want, it can still only use 2 of them. Slowing a minion is only relevant if you can give it slow 2 as it is already limited to only taking 2 of its 3 actions.
That's an interesting take on it, you might be technically correct and also have a practically workable interpretation at the same time (...)
Extending this to mature companions that get one action even if you didn't command them - they'd basically just shrug at Slow 1 and 2?
On the one hand, that makes minions pseudo-immune to Slow and effects like Stunning Fist; on the other hand, if those worked fully, then minions would be crippled by them. Very volatile thing to make rules judgements on.
Minions: "A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn "
The minion trait does not change the number of actions a creature has per turn, it only imposes a limit on the number of actions that said creature can use per turn. So hasting a minion doesn't do anything, you can give a minion as many actions as you want, it can still only use 2 of them. Slowing a minion is only relevant if you can give it slow 2 as it is already limited to only taking 2 of its 3 actions.
Ah you beat me to it. This was what I was going to recommend.
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Not a fan of semantic arguments.
If a Haste spell targets a Druid's bear, that bear should be Quickened.
The question follows of how this works out mechanically, but it seems a given that such an event should be able to occur. A Druid should be able to Haste their bear and an enemy should be able to Slow it.
Otherwise we get some strange metaphysics re: obedience & loyalty making one immune to some spells. Loses too much verisimilitude for my tastes.
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A Druid should be able to Haste their bear and an enemy should be able to Slow it.
A druid's bear shouldn't be slower when it strides for a full round than a bear that isn't an animal companion, but those are the rules... As such, verisimilitude SHOULD have already taken the hit IMO. It's much like the same argument about Battle Medicine needing a hand: the base action taking 2 seconds already should blow away verisimilitude so why focus on not needing a free hand breaking verisimilitude... :P
Otherwise we get some strange metaphysics
You send your druids cat after a normal cat and your cat it always loses out as it has 2/3rds the speed: metaphysics blow.
Ah you beat me to it. This was what I was going to recommend.Minions: "A creature with this trait can use only 2 actions per turn "
The minion trait does not change the number of actions a creature has per turn, it only imposes a limit on the number of actions that said creature can use per turn. So hasting a minion doesn't do anything, you can give a minion as many actions as you want, it can still only use 2 of them. Slowing a minion is only relevant if you can give it slow 2 as it is already limited to only taking 2 of its 3 actions.
The thing is that the description of both Animal Companion and Familiar has this to say in this regard:
Your animal companion has the minion trait, and it gains 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command it...
Familiars have the minion trait (page 634), so during an encounter, they gain 2 actions in a round if you spend an action to command them.
Can't say if this is a case of inconsistant wording (also note the difference regarding round and turn) or intentional, however the two statements are not mutually exclusive, so if it is intentional you can easily gain more than 2 actions per turn, however you can not use more than 2 per turn.
Otherwise we get some strange metaphysicsYou send your druids cat after a normal cat and your cat it always loses out as it has 2/3rds the speed: metaphysics blow.
Even a normal cat sent after a normal cat via the normal Command an Animal rules would overtake the companion...
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I disagree. Just because they act on your turn doesn't mean they don't have a turn. It's just coexistent with yours.It is indeed arguable they get a turn, but their turn gives them zero actions. Only your action to command them grants them actions, so this still doesn't interact with Slowed or Quickened.
Your conclusion does not appear to me to arise necessarily from the facts you have stated.
Agreed that the minion has zero actions. If it retains zero actions, the slowed conditions doesn't matter. But if the master grants the minion two actions, the slowed condition would then consume one of them.
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I disagree. Just because they act on your turn doesn't mean they don't have a turn. It's just coexistent with yours.It is indeed arguable they get a turn, but their turn gives them zero actions. Only your action to command them grants them actions, so this still doesn't interact with Slowed or Quickened.Your conclusion does not appear to me to arise necessarily from the facts you have stated.
Agreed that the minion has zero actions. If it retains zero actions, the slowed conditions doesn't matter. But if the master grants the minion two actions, the slowed condition would then consume one of them.
The Slowed condition does not apply whenever you gain actions, though. It applies when you gain actions at the start of your turn. A minion definitely doesn't do that. They gain actions conditionally when their master uses an action.
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I don't think the metaphysical examples are apt.
If my cat familiar races another cat, their speeds and actions are likely comparable.
However, if we're in the midst of intense combat, my familiar is effectively expending one action each round to always be ready for my commands. If another cat bolts away from the fight, and I tell my cat to go after it, it will have a late start because it was awaiting my command on what to do.
Now, if they get far enough away from the encounter to effectively not be part of it anymore, then all bets are off. Both the familiar and the cat have full actions and abilities (they're free-willed creatures after all). The familiar will just be under GM control at that point and will do whatever it thinks is best for the current situation.
Doesn't break much verisimilitude at all, not unless you let it.
I dont think the metaphysical examples are apt.
If my cat familiar races another cat, their speeds and actions are likely comparable.
However, if we're in the midst of combat, my familiar is effectively expending one action each round to always be ready for my commands. If another cat bolts away from the fight, and I tell my cat to go after it, it will have a late start because it was awaiting my command on what to do.
Disagree: Say I have an intelligent minion and I tell it to chase that until you catch it. What command is it waiting for? How about a hunting dog you send off after an animal? It doesn't turn and look back at you every 6 seconds to see if you still want it to do what you ask. The action cost would make sense when you're swapping commands but what about when you aren't?
Now, if they get far enough away from the encounter to effectively not be part of it anymore, then all bets are off. Both the familiar and the cat have full actions and abilities.
Again, I'd disagree: nothing indicates you have to do less outside an encounter: why would it look at you every 6 seconds of combat but you can send it off on a 10 min scouting mission alone without needing any commands? THAT breaks MY verisimilitude more than anything else here. It makes no sense to me that it turns from a robot/puppet in strings to a completely independent free-willed entity depending on combat.
Creative Director
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I normally don't weigh in on rules discussions, so this isn't an official Paizo ruling, but for me, in-world, a creature that's summoned is still a creature, and it shouldn't get immunity to slow effects simply because of that. It doesnt' make sense, in world. So I'd just ignore the fact that the creature is a minion and apply the slowed condition as-written and the minion would go down to 1 action if it were slowed 1 and lose all its actions if it were slowed 2.
The fact that it's a minion shouldn't have an effect on how slowed affects them.
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I normally don't weigh in on rules discussions, so this isn't an official Paizo ruling, but for me, in-world, a creature that's summoned is still a creature, and it shouldn't get immunity to slow effects simply because of that. It doesnt' make sense, in world.
The issue with this is that the Minion trait doesn't really make a lot of sense in-world in the first place. Certainly not for creatures that aren't summoned, like Animal Companions.
Why is an Animal Companion horse flatly slower at all times than a non-animal companion horse, after all? Yet they are.
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Unless minions are always Slowed 1, in which case they don't lose an action until Slowed 2.
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I normally don't weigh in on rules discussions, so this isn't an official Paizo ruling, but for me, in-world, a creature that's summoned is still a creature, and it shouldn't get immunity to slow effects simply because of that. It doesnt' make sense, in world.The issue with this is that the Minion trait doesn't really make a lot of sense in-world in the first place. Certainly not for creatures that aren't summoned, like Animal Companions.
Why is an Animal Companion horse flatly slower at all times than a non-animal companion horse, after all? Yet they are.
Pick and choose your battles as to what rules make sense. Every table is different.
Why is an Animal Companion horse flatly slower at all times than a non-animal companion horse, after all? Yet they are.
I'm pretty sure that if you're mounted, you use the Mounted Combat rules (1-for-1 action). If you're not mounted, you use the Minion rules (2-for-1 action).
Got a whole thread discussing that here.
I don't think the metaphysical examples are apt.
If my cat familiar races another cat, their speeds and actions are likely comparable.
However, if we're in the midst of combat, my familiar is effectively expending one action each round to always be ready for my commands. If another cat bolts away from the fight, and I tell my cat to go after it, it will have a late start because it was awaiting my command on what to do.
Disagree: Say I have an intelligent minion and I tell it to chase that until you catch it. What command is it waiting for? How about a hunting dog you send off after an animal? It doesn't turn and look back at you every 6 seconds to see if you still want it to do what you ask. The action cost would make sense when you're swapping commands but what about when you aren't?
Now, if they get far enough away from the encounter to effectively not be part of it anymore, then all bets are off. Both the familiar and the cat have full actions and abilities.Again, I'd disagree: nothing indicates you have to do less outside an encounter: why would it look at you every 6 seconds of combat but you can send it off on a 10 min scouting mission alone without needing any commands? THAT breaks MY verisimilitude more than anything else here. It makes no sense to me that it turns from a robot/puppet in strings to a completely independent free-willed entity depending on combat.
It seems you've got my intended statement backwards, and that we might actually be on the same page.
I'm specifically saying that, outside of combat encounters, it DOESN'T have to look back at you every six seconds! It acts just like any other non-minion creature.
And in fact, I believe it would be using a full set of three actions even in a combat encounter, if the master wasn't a participant.
I recently GM'd a game where an animal tamer's circus bear got swallowed whole. I ruled that, even though the animal tamer was unconscious and unable to issue a command (if that's even possible when the would-be recipient is swallowed whole) the bear wasn't just going to cross its arms and let something eat him! So I had it make a claw Strike to cut it's way out.
Any GM or player who treats minions as mechanical robots that would just die in such a situation is the one breaking the game's verisimilitude, not the rules.
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I'm pretty sure that if you're mounted, you use the Mounted Combat rules (1-for-1 action). If your not mounted, you use the Minion rules (2-for-1 action).
LOL That's another rules interaction that's up in the air. Nothing in the mounted combat rules contradicts the minion rules: Having to Command to give a minion 2 actions and having to Command a mount to use it's action can work together. It's suck it it did, but it works.
I'm specifically saying that, outside of combat encounters, it DOESN'T have to look back at you every six seconds! It acts just like any other non-minion creature.
Yep I disagree: nothing says minion goes away in modes other than Encounter. In fact, Improvising New Activities covers one action per round [a single action repeated roughly 10 times per minute] activities, so minion works perfectly fine outside of encounters. I just don't see how minions are intended to suddenly gain so much outside of combat without it being explicitly stated in the rules.
And in fact, I believe it would be using a full set of three actions even in a combat encounter, if the master wasn't a participant.
IMO, an unintelligent minion doesn't have any actions, an animal has 3 actions that the Dm controls [follows instincts] and an intelligent minion has 3 actions the DM controls [follows motivations]. The thing is, we have no idea how smart a familiar is: it has no stats, uses your stat for it's skills and can't even understand language at base [ie, it could have animal intelligence or even less]. Heck it could be unintelligent at base for all we know and it's just a puppet [only Independent requires more than that].
Any GM or player who treats minions as mechanical robots that would just die in such a situation is the one breaking the game's verisimilitude, not the rules.
I again don't agree: I can't find a place where a familiar is presented in the rules that suggests it isn't a robot. Can you point to a place that explains how independent, intelligent or capable of taking extended actions without commands? Since Familiars aren't in real like and we have no way to understand how smart or sapient they are we have no basis for verisimilitude issues. As to animal companions, we have rules that they are TRAINED to check every 6 seconds for commands: It breaks verisimilitude that that training stops outside of combat: the animals behavior doesn't make a 180 degree turn like that.
PS: Now I understand some DM might treat familiars differently and might allow such things, especially those of us from the PF1 days that have that kind of familiar in mind: I just don't see a justification for it in the current rule set.
As far as I am concerned minions out of combat are a weird mess. Its entirely up in the air how many actions they get. See the familiar thread.
I actually think it's clear that the minion trait doesn't go away and they don't mention any changes for other modes. I agree it's a bit of a mess that they ignore the other modes for minions: IMO, it'd be easy enough to make up exploration activities for familiars/animal companions that's make it crystal clear how they are meant to work.
As for slow/quicken. Yes they should still affect minion
To me, it seems that minions have 3 actions and a reaction but minion limits them to using 2 of those actions: as such, it works off of the 3 actions, hence slow would have to be Slow 2+ to impact actions and Quickened doesn't change the amount of actions minion grants [as it isn't the base actions].
Sorry for the not entirely related question but I got myself confused over the minion rules...
When do Animal Companions and normal animals act?
The box on page 249 states: The animal does what you commanded as soon as it can, usually as its first action on its next turn.
The skill action on the same page: Success The animal does as you command on its next turn.
However the Animal Companion description on page 214 reads: Your animal companion has the minion trait, and it gains 2 actions during your turn if you use the Command an Animal action to command it...
Which is backed up by the minion rules on page 301 states: Your minion acts on your turn in combat, once per turn, when you spend an action to issue it commands.
So ACs act on your turn and normal animals with 1 turn delay, e.g. a AC dog will act immediately but if you buy a guard dog it will only act the next turn.
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Minions dont get reactions either.
They don't when they aren't controlled. "If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don’t act, animals follow their instincts, and sapient minions act how they please.": ie, they get their normal actions as they can act but Command isn't granting actions. So you have to abandon you minion to get them to have a reaction.
Sorry for the not entirely related question but I got myself confused over the minion rules...
When do Animal Companions and normal animals act?
The box on page 249 states: The animal does what you commanded as soon as it can, usually as its first action on its next turn.
This is for animals in the equipment section: ie, non-minions. Minions act on the characters turn.
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I normally don't weigh in on rules discussions, so this isn't an official Paizo ruling, but for me, in-world, a creature that's summoned is still a creature, and it shouldn't get immunity to slow effects simply because of that. It doesnt' make sense, in world. So I'd just ignore the fact that the creature is a minion and apply the slowed condition as-written and the minion would go down to 1 action if it were slowed 1 and lose all its actions if it were slowed 2.
The fact that it's a minion shouldn't have an effect on how slowed affects them.
This is how I run it, same with quickened.
My feeling is as long as you run the game consistently and make it clear to your players, you should be ok either way.
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You guys are way too caught up on the mechanical aspects of the game.
The game makes it clear that--insofar as the game world characters are concerned--animal companions, familiars, and other minions are creatures just like any other kind of creature. The minion rules aren't there to limit every aspect of the minion's life, only the level of power that it can grant to a PC. It's an abstract balancing mechanic. That's all. It will--and should--impact mechanical gameplay, but should have no bearing whatsoever on the non-combat narrative.
A cat is a cat is a cat.
The only thing that changes with the minion trait are a few basic mechanics, and who gets to control it and when.
That may be a bit more "gray area" than you're comfortable with, and that's fine. Everyone falls somewhere on the "playstyle scale." Just please try and remember that Pathfinder is a roleplaying game first, where the mechanics are meant to support the roleplay, not the other way around. Pathfinder isn't machine code. Minions are not (usually) robots.
Leave a familiar alone long enough and it's not going to sit there and starve to death because you didn't tell it to eat. It's not going to explode because you didn't tell it to s&&~. It's going to go hunting. It's going to relieve itself. It's likely going to do whatever else creatures of that kind normally do (which for some, is just sitting there).
You can run them like robots if you want I guess, but then don't be surprised when you get weird nonsensical situations that break verisimilitude. If you can tolerate that, then fine, it's your game, but don't then come running to the forums claiming it's a problem with the game itself. It's not.
You guys are way too caught up on the mechanics aspects of the game.
Well, I don't understand why you wouldn't be: the mechanics inform you what's possible. Minion tells us that they sit there looking stupid while their master is there unless the master spends an action. That's just how it is.
The game makes it clear that--insofar as the game world is concerned--animal companions, familiars, and other minions are creatures just like any other kind of creature.
Does it? What exactly is a familiar's kind of creature? We know it starts out as an animal but it ends up as what? It doesn't even have stats to make an informed basis for it's capabilities. For instance, what type of creature is the familiar of my witch [patron Baba Yaga]? It's a pet rock but uses the EXACT SAME RULES as a cat, toad or any other familiar that's not a specific familiar. Though, specific familiars shows that they are different than the base creature: imps and familiar imps, for instance, have different abilities.
Summoned minions are under control of a spell that limits their actions and types of actions: as such, how can we treat it as an uncontrolled creature?
As for animal companions, they are clearly trained or particularly enamored enough to require the master to contently tell them what to do: them mechanics are clear on this. Look at companions and the animal they are based on: they have different abilities and stats.
"If given no commands, minions use no actions except to defend themselves or to escape obvious harm." No provisos: nothing about "only in encounters" or "ignore this rule in exploration mode".
The minion rules aren't there to limit every aspect of the minion's life
Please point out where this is spelled out or even a quote where you think this is even hinted at.
only the level of power that it can grant to a PC. It's a balancing mechanic. It will, and should, impact mechanical gameplay, but should have no bearing whatsoever on the non-combat narrative.
See, full action use without command in exploration IS increasing power in exploration by allowing players to get extra activities: if it was a balancing mechanism in one mode, why isn't it one in the others? The "non-combat narrative" STILL is tracked through actions by way of activities so it still aplies.
A cat is a cat is a cat.
Sure but a familiar that USED to cat isn't a normal cat anymore. An animal companion that is a cat isn't a normal cat anymore: they play by different rules. It's like saying a vampire cat is the same as a werecat which is the same as a house cat which is the same as a animal companion cat. They all play by different rules.
The only thing that changes with the minion trait are a few mechanics, and who gets to control it and when.
The issue is the mechanics directly affect what actions,how many they can take or if they can take an action at all. These are NOT minor things. It's the entire crux of what we are talking about. You're basically saying as long as you completely ignore the rules of the game a minion can take whatever action it wants. Sure, that's true but that also applies to animal companions firing fireballs out of their behinds too as it has the same amount of content covering it in the books.
That may be a bit more "gray area" than you're comfortable with, and that's fine.
IMO, it's not a grey area: it's codified rules.
roleplaying game
Roleplaying works alongside the mechanics: one shouldn't override the other without good reason. The same reasons it's a good idea for minion to work as it does in encounter mode is what makes it a good reason to work in exploration. It all you care about is roleplay, there is freeform: if you think mechanics are important you can't just toss them aside.
Leave a familiar alone long enough and it's not going to sit there and starve to death because you didn't tell it to eat. It's not going to explode because you didn't tell it to s$**.
Nope, that sucker is dead if the master stays with it and gives no commands.
It's going to go hunting.
Only if it has independent action.
It's going to relieve itself.
Sure, it's not an action.
It's likely going to do whatever else creatures of that kind normally do (which for some, is just sitting there).
I agree: it's going to do whatever other minions do: they more in common with other minions than the creatures they are based on.
You can run them like robots if you want I guess, but then don't be surprised when you get weird nonsensical situations that break verisimilitude.
Don't mistake how I'd want them to play with how the game says they play as: one would be a houserule and the other the rules.
If you can tolerate that, then fine, it's your game, but don't then come running to the forums claiming it's a problem with the game itself. It's not.
If the base rules aren't satisfying and make me want to houserule them, how is that not as issue with the rules but with me?
I wasn't exactly expecting my stance to be popular when I made it.
You guys are way too caught up on the mechanical aspects of the game.
Truer words were never spoke.