Starfinder Society Developer
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Going to post here to try to engage in the conversation, though there'll be more discussion (official blog type) in the future...
The intent on moving to ACP is to take some of the cognitive burden off the players and to take burden off of the OP staff. Over the SFS campaign, we've got a lot of feedback on how people appreciated the boon system at first but that it has become really cumbersome in its current form, especially when introducing new players into the eco-system and getting tables firing (yes, boon slotting can be a pain). So removing some of that cognitive burden from the campaign was necessary, and it also allows us to look at the boon system and re-evaluate how it works overall.
Putting these "bonuses" into ACP made a lot of sense because it lets us target where we want to put these. Yes players will have to check the ACP store for their cool boons, BUT that means the players who actually care can go and check them out. This system also lets us really focus on targeting what scenarios we want to have meaningful bonuses attached to them. Currently the team suffers a lot of (partly self-imposed) stress on making sure that we include boons in every scenario, otherwise people view some scenarios as "more valuable than others". Heck, even the typical "So and So Will Remember This" boons are often just cop-outs so we don't have to come up with another "You get +1 to hit dire wolves on Tuesdays" boon.
For the “So and so will remember this” boons, I am personally WAY more of a fan of making the Chronicle sheets themselves the validating token. Less of "Did X/Y/Z remember this" boons and more "Do you have a Chronicle sheet for scenario XX? Cool then this bonus happens in this scenario." It lets us target these more specifically, be more fluid with them, and not have the hanging thread of "When ARE we going to interact with those gnolls from Katapesh?"
Another thing I’m really excited about, is that this lets us review past scenarios. For example, it’s clear that a lot of people want 3-00 to offer a special reward. COOL, with the ACP system we can go back and add that reward post-event without having the hassle of re-issuing a Chronicle sheet and forcing a new PDF upload for a product and creating a weird discrepancy between Chronicles. Case and point, we can easily apply bonuses to as many Season 3 scenarios as we want, or even go back to some of the Season 1 or 2 scenarios that we think might need a bump. It’s a really flexible system that lets us be more in-line with the community and better able to adapt to customer feedback; just like the feedback here.
So, anywho, I just want to say that I’m watching and listening. I’m sorry about being more silent than usual. COVID and Convention Season has been particularly tough on the team, and even my usual iron resolve has been really tested this year. I miss all your faces and being able to see you at conventions to talk about these matters in person and get feedback without the usual “I’m protected by internet anonymity” stuff that can pop-up on forums or social media. Also, thanks to Mark Stratton for giving me a good digital slap when I needed it :)
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I would prefer that boons remain on Chronicle sheets. I always look forward to seeing what's on the Chronicle after a session--it's immediate gratification. Waiting to see what (if anything) I can eventually buy through ACPs if a) the scenario gets reported and b) Paizo's website works just isn't the same feeling.
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Starfinder Society Developer
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So would it be fair to say that Season 3 WILL have boons, it’s just that they will be deferred until the ACP system goes live and will then be added as 0 point buys?
That's what I'm looking at, yes.
Though, that also comes with the caveat of not every scenario really needs a boon. :)
Venture-Agent, Finland—Tampere
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I am in kind of favor of not every scenario having a boon because uh... Well honestly speaking, you REALLY can tell that some of them are due to dev team struggling to come up with something for them <_<;
(that and I'm little bit sad when boon reward doesn't turn out to be what I thought it would be :p I really wanted that iruxi background unlock!)
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Here's how I would like this to go:
I think that AcP could be made retroactive to the start of the campaign, with every scenario or AP played offering base values (no worries about Convention or RSP values) prior to the start of Year 3. Generally speaking, for those adventures prior to the start of Year 3, we already got convention and RSP books out of them, so we don't have to do anything but mass assign base values and let the program take over. Going forward, we can be more specific, designating premier and premier plus events as they happen.
On boons:
I have often wondered how much mental energy it took to keep coming up with chronicle boons. Like everyone else, I love them. Charli keeps a rather large tally of her various boons on her character sheet, sorted by type, and then quickly searches each category for appropriate ones. She has a default load out, and I've never had a game get delayed at all by the boon slotting process. Pretty much all the people I know and play with have figured out their default boon load-outs, and only change things out if the mission briefing indicates something of interest, or if they are borrowing specific equipment on a limited use boon.
My favorite boons have been the ones that built to something: Nufriend Skittermander, which had checkboxes and encouraged GMs to try out new scenarios, University of Qabarat, which has been a wonderful source of higher education for so many of the characters that I know.
All this said, I want producing scenarios to be less of a burden for our dev team. If that means less boons, but more high-quality ones, that sounds good to me. I also appreciate the idea of the chronicle being enough in terms of chronicle allies. Charli didn't get a skill ally until level 10 because she had to slot so many of these chronicle allies from various scenarios.
Boons are still one of my favorite things. I love being able to tell players as I hand out a chronicle sheet, "Oh, you're going to love the boon on this one!" I do think that Specials should offer a boon, and I am looking forward to seeing the retroactive ACP boon that shows up from 3-00, when the system goes live a year from now.
I guess what I am saying is that I'll really miss chronicle boons -- especially those that built up over time with check boxes -- but that I also want what is good for the campaign, long-term. Sane devs are devs who have the energy to handle other campaign issues as they arise, and who can happily keep developing wonderful new content for us to play.
If this change keeps you all sane, than this change is what we should do.
Hmm
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I can't relate to ya'lls complaint of this change. I could take it or leave it for most on-chronicle boons. For a vast majority of them the boon is either ill suited for the scenario or feels like they came up with a boon just to have a boon. I'm all for intentional boons with efficiency. Admittedly I'm not an instant gratification junkie. I play the scenarios for the scenarios, not for the boons afterward. But, different people are different I suppose.
If this change makes people leave..eh..so they leave. No skin off my back. Threats to leave don't phase me in my local group, they sure aren't for random other people in random other places.
I don't get enjoyment from the game. I use the game to find enjoyment. If the game is changed, I shift my usage to continue finding enjoyment. That, I imagine, likely contributes to the ease in which I deal with the changes. I suggest making that switch if you are easily riled when things change.
As for the rubric, if you don't contact the appropriate people requesting an exception due to uncommon circumstances, then the system that adjudicates that is no longer the problem.
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As for the rubric, if you don't contact the appropriate people requesting an exception due to uncommon circumstances, then the system that adjudicates that is no longer the problem.
The accessibility of the rubric was brought up with the 'appropriate people' when the rubric was first being developed and we were rather pointed about the problems it presents to people outside the US. Anyone who could read a map and the list of VCs could see it was going to shaft people all over the place. There was 0 interest from those 'appropriate people'.
I don't think anyone is saying the game isn't a great vehicle for enjoyment, the argument is that the Organised Play program we're volunteering our time to build and grow seems to be continually making arbitrary decisions that shaft us without regard to our input or concerns, and at the same time asking us to have faith that in the future there will be some cool fixes.
So would it be fair to say that Season 3 WILL have boons, it’s just that they will be deferred until the ACP system goes live and will then be added as 0 point buys?That's what I'm looking at, yes.
Though, that also comes with the caveat of not every scenario really needs a boon. :)
There is the potential bonus here of additional 'secrecy' creating a surprise for what your boon might be. Some adventures are already being known for having very generous boons which are a bit of a must-have. This might well add a little mystery to it - even moreso if the boons are variable depending on in-game choice!
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The hassle is that the surprise won’t last as the cat will be let out of the bag once the first kids start getting their shiny toys in a year.
Even sooner, right? As soon as the AcP store goes live, you'll see all the boons.
I'm wondering if they're planning on making some generalizable boons and then say, "Pick one in tier."
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If I'm reading what Thursty is saying correctly, the idea is that any chronicle boons will be tied to the reporting of that scenario. That when he says "ACP system" he's referring the overall scenario reporting/tracking, not necessarily specifically to your Achievement Point total. So when the GM reports scenario 4-14 with checkboxes "A" and "C", the players of that game will have access to whatever boons are opened by those checkbox conditions (if any). They wouldn't show up at all until you have credit for a reported game of 4-14.
In addition some boons will not be tied to specific chronicles, and those will be buyable via earned AcP. Those boons wouldn't be "secret."
If this has the side effect of making chronicle fishing a bit harder, great! But I don't think that's really the point.
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As for the rubric, if you don't contact the appropriate people requesting an exception due to uncommon circumstances, then the system that adjudicates that is no longer the problem.The accessibility of the rubric was brought up with the 'appropriate people' when the rubric was first being developed and we were rather pointed about the problems it presents to people outside the US. Anyone who could read a map and the list of VCs could see it was going to shaft people all over the place. There was 0 interest from those 'appropriate people'.
I don't think anyone is saying the game isn't a great vehicle for enjoyment, the argument is that the Organised Play program we're volunteering our time to build and grow seems to be continually making arbitrary decisions that shaft us without regard to our input or concerns, and at the same time asking us to have faith that in the future there will be some cool fixes.
So, for clarity, what I am reading is that you haven't, in fact, specifically contacted the appropriate individuals along the volunteer chain of command about your semi-unique situation. Despite knowing how the system is set up to work. I find it a little odd that I, one who is not a venture officer, have to continually suggest to you, a venture officer, to utilize the Organized Play structure to address this situation. I suspect, as would be reasonable, that they would make exceptions and allowances due to your situation and the covid situation.
WHEN you have specifically used the problem resolution structure and they blow off your reasonable complaint without making exceptions. THEN I would encourage you to post and express the problem and I will happily join in your critiques and criticisms.
Until then, I have no pity for someone who has done nothing but make posts on threads. The OPF has a structure for a reason. This is an example of a reason why the system exists.
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So, for clarity, what I am reading is that you haven't, in fact, specifically contacted the appropriate individuals along the volunteer chain of command about your semi-unique situation.
"The accessibility of the rubric was brought up with the 'appropriate people' when the rubric was first being developed"
Unsure how you require further clarity, nor unsure how you could possibly have misread and misinterpreted that. What part of that was confusing to you or leave any ambiguity about whether it was raised with the OPF?
Not only have I raised it directly with OPF, others in the same set of 'unique' circumstances (eg half of Europe) did the same thing and raised it with them. It is a problem 'individually and uniquely' impacting a significant majority of VCs external to the US.
We raised it to the chain directly, we raised it in the 'appropriate' forum and thread discussing it when the chain was proposing it, developing it, and getting feedback.
So just to clarify - it has been raised, detailed, argued, all with the appropriate people to the very top of the OPF.
I expect that you will now 'happily join in your critiques and criticisms'.
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That was a whole month and a half ago! How can anyone remember that far back in 2020. I mean, we're on our 37th or 38th sign of apocalypse with finding Godzilla's lair and the zombie cicadas!
Anyhow, Tonya commented on AcP boons in the blog thread.
My personal goal for 2020 is that by 2021 my braincells will have the motto "if you were there for 2020 you didn't form memories of it"
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Right you are. And, it looks like I have already joined in the critques and criticisms. It seems that during this covid situation there are some technicalities you can take advantage of. Also it is unclear what the only one "online" game constitutes. Is it dependent on the medium? Is it dependent on the locations of the players?
After rereading the beginning post of the thread, I see no reason why any of the games have to be in person. A local game with a venture captain that is a little ways away on a digital medium seems to fall under the category of "creative solutions".
Out of curiosity, have you or your rvc directly emailed tonya or alex about this?
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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@thursty How do you plan on handling player choice? Will you only take into account what the entire society as a whole does (via the tracking sheet), or is there some way for player choices to have some ramifications (Player X offended the hobgoblins, but the society as a whole did not, so... Player X still has a penalty).
There are not that many boons with choices like that, but... choices can define your character, and I don't know if the ACP boons can reflect the choices players make (without a lot of development).
Another question... Won't online boons cause more paper waste, with people having to print out the boons themselves? Online games and players won't really be effected, but offline players... won't have the same access to the boons that they did before.
I'm not complaining, I just want to make sure all of the ramifications have been thought about.
In some of the "adventure summaries" for PFS there are check boxes along the line of:
"You discovered a new trail to the heart of Osirion, on the way you discovered a tribe of Gnolls and (O Made friends with them / O killed them all / O Avoided them entirely)"
Just as useful, and never has to come up again, but can be tracked at the table if needed.
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There is a lot of criticism here of folks who have expressed their displeasure with this move, and I guess some have said they may not play any more?
Now, I don't understand that line of thinking, but I'm also not at the same place they are.
But it smacks of arrogance on the part of some to suggest that the people who are unhappy about this are practicing "badwrongfun." Everyone has what they like about OP, and for a lot of us, those little story boons, no matter how minor, were nice touches.
Let's stop acting like these people are somehow wrong simply because they don't like this change. No wonder people want to stop playing OP stuff - based on the attitudes expressed here and elsewhere on this topic, I think some of you fanpeople need to review the "Don't Be a Jerk" rule.
Sheesh.
People like what they like about the game. Stop trashing them for it.
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~I just don't understand the reasoning for the decision... all it seems to do is add more complexity and waste paper*...
* at least for those of us you keep paper records...
Indeed. Now all my face to face players are going to have both a Chronicle sheet AND the printout of their boons from the AcP portal, we've now made more paper use rather than less.
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I think the idea is that we wouldn't be printing the records, just storing them in the cloud like OneDrive, etc. and accessing them from our digital device when needed. There already is an expectation that we shift from carrying around our books and printed chronicle sheets to digital storage. This is just a continuation of that.
Yes, I know not everyone has a smart phone, iPad, etc., but the majority do. Its just like when radios were invented. After some time, essentially everyone had one. Then the TV. Then the VHS. Then the computer. Then the mobile phone. Etc.
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Then we need to abolish the chronicle sheet altogether. Having half the process physical and the other half virtual is a bit odd.
However we're stuck with chronicle sheets though as there needs to be some way to record the variable credits/xp/varied rep etc and provide that to the player.
The shortfall of it all is that we're still waiting on another person to report the session, and people aren't so good at that part. For some people they act as though you are asking them to do their taxes or something.
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Then we need to abolish the chronicle sheet altogether.
That is the eventual intent. You wouldn't hypothetically need to print anything but your character sheet, if you wanted. Just like you don't need to print your PDF books to use them.
Having half the process physical and the other half virtual is a bit odd.
This is what evolutionary scientists call a 'transitional fossil'. There was an older, more primitive species, and perhaps as early as next year there will be a more advanced species, but right now we're looking at a Bear Dog.
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Then we need to abolish the chronicle sheet altogether.That is the eventual intent. You wouldn't hypothetically need to print anything but your character sheet, if you wanted. Just like you don't need to print your PDF books to use them.
Given the problems with reporting i can't see that being a good idea unless there's a way for the player to fix the problem on their end.
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I don't know about you, but I have noticed a stark uptick in the awareness of players getting their games reported. I'm in like two dozen Discord channels right now, and the number of times I've seen players bugging their GMs to report their games has gone through the roof.
Which doesn't always work. I think the system would break if chronicle sheets vanishing was at the same rate as games not being reported, or mis reported.
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Yeah but you rock up to a con or some random FLGS game and old matey potatey the GM is slow/delinquent in getting sheets reported - you can't really play your next session as the last session hasn't been logged.
You are at a con, you finish the current table, you need that credit to level and join the next table. You now wait a few days as the reporters do their thing (large cons can take a while to show up).
With a physical chronicle sheet I have evidence in my hand and am good to go. I can scan it and then hold it electronically - but the one at the table is pretty much my receipt.
Not comforting.
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you can't really play your next session as the last session hasn't been logged.
This isn't a problem now. I don't know why it would be a problem in the future.
Say you're signed up for two back-to-back games with the same character. You level up after the first game so you can be in-tier for the next game.
If you're actually physically at a Convention, which I don't see as being a thing for some time but hypothetically, you break out this thing called an eraser and you change the Level on your character sheet.
Just like we used to do back in the olden days of 2019.
You now wait a few days as the reporters do their thing (large cons can take a while to show up).
As of right now, the only thing that's being delayed is your accrual of AcP. Knowing that happens, don't plan on unveiling your new Lizardfolk on Slot 2 of the Convention.
Normally we call this an "unreasonable expectation".
With a physical chronicle sheet I have evidence in my hand and am good to go. I can scan it and then hold it electronically - but the one at the table is pretty much my receipt.
The only time in 8 years of Organized Play I've ever had anyone question my character's level was for Eyes of the Ten, the first scenario of which came out a decade ago.
That isn't going to be an issue with this new system.
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This isn't a problem now. I don't know why it would be a problem in the future.
Now I have the gold fame and stuff to shop/spend while scarfing down pizza written on my sheet.
Its easily solved if the next dm will handwave that they're at a convention and not care, but the player has no evidence of an increased amount of cash. (and would have to ask the DM the amount and scribble it down somewhere)
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I feel like there's some leaps to some conclusions going on. So just to be sure: nowhere have officials said that, starting in s4, you will not receive a "confirmation of playing" at the end of an adventure. (Right?)
I mean, the way it works currently, is that games played online have a soft-copy chronicle sheet emailed out shortly after end*, and people playing in meatspace get a hard-copy chronicle sheet handed to them at the end.
It's entirely possible that convention will continue in s4, with the change being what form that "confirmation of playing" takes.
There's a lot we don't know, still, is what I'm saying. Let's try and be cognizant of that before we fall too far into the weeds of potential situations.
*not even touching on the topic of "how much time between end of game and receipt of soft copy is acceptable."
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I'm not even sure that "the end goal is no paper anything" is what Tonya is saying, though. She doesn't say "there's no more paper chronicle sheets." She says that boons are moving online, as part of an ongoing, years-long, goal of "mov[ing] away from paper."
I don't know if there's value in this level of pedantry, but that statement definitely leaves the door open for "online games get online chronicle sheets, in-person games still get something physical in-person." (Presumably, neither will have boons on them.) A system like this will still let folks move from one slot directly into the next, at settings with back-to-back games.
I mean, who knows, maybe Paizo has been secretly funneling R&D money into low-cost perforated paper, and in 2021 premier con GMs will be provided with a fancy single sheet with perforations that allow you to easily tear it into seven strips, each of which contains a super quick snapshot for records-keeping: ID, Character #, rep/fame/$ lost & gained, one or two checkboxes. Like, the existing "event reporting form" at the end of each scenario today, except with some easy-to-rip marks or something.
Likely? No. Possible? Sure. The point I'm trying to illustrate, though, is that Paizo people aren't definitively saying "X is how it will be," likely because season 4 is many moons away and those discussions are still happening.
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I mean, I suppose, but when I read things like "move away from paper" and that they're considering "what is necessary for reporting/tracking/accountability", it sure sounds to me like the idea is to transition away from handing out physical Chronicles.
A hybrid system just doesn't make sense. To me, at least.