reading through the apg im liking what investigator is selling. But its also quite a heavy word laiden class with many unique OOC features on top of devise stratagem.
I run free archetype so been trying to come up with builds. I like the idea of a Investigator with witch archetype using nails to spellstrike with hexes using devise stratagem.
or maybe a eldritch archer or martial artist.
While i read, and reread, and google, anyone care to give me the rundown on the investigator? I feel like im not getting the entire picture.
So, first thing to note. Investigator gets skill increases and skill feats at the same rate rogues do, with one caveat - the odd level skill feats are restricted to INT, WIS, and CHA skills. This... isn't a significant limitation, really.
Second, they get Devise Strategem. This is a silly ability that lets you pre-roll an attack and change your mind, etc, as well as just use int to hit with a healthy spread of weapons. Also, you get precision damage equal to a rogue's sneak attack off it.
Third, your investigator style gives you some kind of bonus on certain skills.
Investigator class feats are big on support and skill use, with some options to enhance Devise Strategem, so if you're looking for maximum weapon damage you've got plenty of class feats free for an archetype.
Basically, investigator is a skill monkey who fights with single big hits while supporting the party.
The witch's nails feat is bad. There's literally exactly one offensive hex it can deliver as written in the APG (and one more in Legends).
Thanks for the reply. Does devise stratagem extend beyond basic attacks? Like does it apply to combat maneuvers? Or things like intimidation?
Thanks for the reply. Does devise stratagem extend beyond basic attacks? Like does it apply to combat maneuvers? Or things like intimidation?Athletic Strategist is a 2nd lv investigator feat that allows you to use your stratagem role for disarm, grapple, shove, and trip attempts. That's all I've found so far.
what about for other attacks? like say some of eldritch archers specialty 2 action ranged attacks?
what about for other attacks? like say some of eldritch archers specialty 2 action ranged attacks?It applies to one Strike. So actual attacks are pretty much all fine, but on something like Flurry of Blows it only applies to the first attack, not both.
makes me think a investigator with eldritch archer archetype would be really good.
makes me think a investigator with eldritch archer archetype would be really good.what about for other attacks? like say some of eldritch archers specialty 2 action ranged attacks?It applies to one Strike. So actual attacks are pretty much all fine, but on something like Flurry of Blows it only applies to the first attack, not both.
I think there is a lot of good possibilities there. Sadly, you can't generally combine Devise a Strategy and Eldritch Shot because you would need 4 Actions. If you are able to use Devise a Strategy as a free action (from Pursue a Lead), it would be quite awesome. The other Eldritch Archer abilities seem quite workable.
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Thanks for the reply. Does devise stratagem extend beyond basic attacks? Like does it apply to combat maneuvers? Or things like intimidation?Athletic Strategist is a 2nd lv investigator feat that allows you to use your stratagem role for disarm, grapple, shove, and trip attempts. That's all I've found so far.
At first I was really excited about Athletic Strategist, but I'm beginning to think it is a bit of a trap. I anticipate Devise a Strategy being my primary combat tool. If I get a good roll then I get to use my Int and Strategic Strike, and all is good. If I roll badly, though, I can just skip that roll by using an attack that isn't a Strike. I'm thinking either a cantrip (from Int-based MC) or an athletic maneuver would be good choices. But Athletic Strategist forces you to use the roll for your next strike or athletic maneuver, so it removes an option that you had before.
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At first I was really excited about Athletic Strategist, but I'm beginning to think it is a bit of a trap. I anticipate Devise a Strategy being my primary combat tool. If I get a good roll then I get to use my Int and Strategic Strike, and all is good. If I roll badly, though, I can just skip that roll by using an attack that isn't a Strike. I'm thinking either a cantrip (from Int-based MC) or an athletic maneuver would be good choices. But Athletic Strategist forces you to use the roll for your next strike or athletic maneuver, so it removes an option that you had before.Thanks for the reply. Does devise stratagem extend beyond basic attacks? Like does it apply to combat maneuvers? Or things like intimidation?Athletic Strategist is a 2nd lv investigator feat that allows you to use your stratagem role for disarm, grapple, shove, and trip attempts. That's all I've found so far.
Keep in mind, you only have to use the roll on the target of Devise a Strategy. If you change targets, you're not locked in.
Keep in mind, you only have to use the roll on the target of Devise a Strategy. If you change targets, you're not locked in.At first I was really excited about Athletic Strategist, but I'm beginning to think it is a bit of a trap. I anticipate Devise a Strategy being my primary combat tool. If I get a good roll then I get to use my Int and Strategic Strike, and all is good. If I roll badly, though, I can just skip that roll by using an attack that isn't a Strike. I'm thinking either a cantrip (from Int-based MC) or an athletic maneuver would be good choices. But Athletic Strategist forces you to use the roll for your next strike or athletic maneuver, so it removes an option that you had before.Thanks for the reply. Does devise stratagem extend beyond basic attacks? Like does it apply to combat maneuvers? Or things like intimidation?Athletic Strategist is a 2nd lv investigator feat that allows you to use your stratagem role for disarm, grapple, shove, and trip attempts. That's all I've found so far.
Thank you so much for pointing this out! With so much information overload from this book, that hadn't sunk in. A whip-wielding Investigator just got waaay more interesting.
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Thank you so much for pointing this out! With so much information overload from this book, that hadn't sunk in. A whip-wielding Investigator just got waaay more interesting.
This is also the big advantage of ranged Investigators. you can Devise A Stratagem with archery, after all (meanwhile, being able to flank is probably the big melee Investigator advantage).
It is kind of a fair/weird point though that Athletic Strategist 'takes away' your ability to reroll a bad DaS by changing tactics though.
Might be the only feat in the game (at least off the top of my head) that actually removes your ability to do something that a character who didn't take the feat can.
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Thank you so much for pointing this out! With so much information overload from this book, that hadn't sunk in. A whip-wielding Investigator just got waaay more interesting.A whip-wielding investigator sounds great. But is there a way to make it do lethal damage without taking the -2 penalty?
The Scorpion Whip is an identical weapon except without Nonlethal. It is Uncommon, but there are ways around that, including just asking your GM nicely.
Thank you so much for pointing this out! With so much information overload from this book, that hadn't sunk in. A whip-wielding Investigator just got waaay more interesting.A whip-wielding investigator sounds great. But is there a way to make it do lethal damage without taking the -2 penalty?
A sword cane also sounds like a stylish weapon for an investigator.
Yeah, a Sword Cane with a Parrying Scabbard seems fun. There are so many options with this class. I've long wanted to make a high-Int character who can effectively use a shillelagh (the club not the spell). With Takedown Expert I can pull that off by using Devise a Stratagem and Strategic Strike on both melee and ranged attacks with it.
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Yeah, there are a lot of cool options.
Sorta wish it had another feat or two like Takedown Expert to enable broader options. I feel like we just get way too many characters that want agile/finesse weapons (and it feels a little awkward grabbing Agile on a class that might reasonably only be attacking once per round).
Another trick us to use Devise A Stratagem before combat, repeatedly, until you get a good roll. The start with a big shot.
You probably need to be hidden or something, but you can just sit and think for a minute until you come up with the perfect attack.
Yeah, there are a lot of cool options.
Sorta wish it had another feat or two like Takedown Expert to enable broader options. I feel like we just get way too many characters that want agile/finesse weapons (and it feels a little awkward grabbing Agile on a class that might reasonably only be attacking once per round).
Maybe we'll get some more options in later books.
Another cool option: Takedown Expert will work with a staff if you use it one-handed. Could be nice if you multiclass into Wizard or Witch. Use a magical staff for both physical melee and extra spells. Pretty good use of Int.
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If you go Eldritch Archer, pay attention to level 8 feat, Magic Arrow.
I'm personally really loving it more than the shooting spells. I've picked Viper Arrow, Climbing Bolt and Vine Arrow. This lets me at any time, turn a basic arrow into either one that turns into a viper and poisons then harasses a target, an easy access to any ledge or higher surface (3 arrows spaced out could easily give rope up a 130ft wall.) and Vine has potential to immobilize and slows with no save until they remove it.
There's also antler arrow for pining targets to the ground. They could potentially work really well with Investigator. If you know your next roll is a crit, use vine arrow and immobilize a target until they remove the vines for example.
It is kind of a fair/weird point though that Athletic Strategist 'takes away' your ability to reroll a bad DaS by changing tactics though.
Might be the only feat in the game (at least off the top of my head) that actually removes your ability to do something that a character who didn't take the feat can.
I can see the point here. But the other argument Would be how likely are you to make that athletic check without the feat? Since you want intelligence, and also dexterity, some constitution, and probably wisdom, depending on the game even charisma seems more impactful than strength. You loose a way to ditch bad rolls but attacking other places or trying to apply some debuffs are still solid. And you can then use your likely much higher stat bonus.
I like the idea of splashing in some martial artists, but I can be a sucker for classics. I also like the idea of a linguist interrogator, though that’s less combat capable.
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Thank you so much for pointing this out! With so much information overload from this book, that hadn't sunk in. A whip-wielding Investigator just got waaay more interesting.This is also the big advantage of ranged Investigators. you can Devise A Stratagem with archery, after all (meanwhile, being able to flank is probably the big melee Investigator advantage).
I can't get the concept of an archer Investigator out of my head, now.
I think I'd have to take Known Weaknesses so I could call out strategies while shooting. Full Hawkeye. :)
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It is kind of a fair/weird point though that Athletic Strategist 'takes away' your ability to reroll a bad DaS by changing tactics though.
Might be the only feat in the game (at least off the top of my head) that actually removes your ability to do something that a character who didn't take the feat can.
I can see the point here. But the other argument Would be how likely are you to make that athletic check without the feat? Since you want intelligence, and also dexterity, some constitution, and probably wisdom, depending on the game even charisma seems more impactful than strength. You loose a way to ditch bad rolls but attacking other places or trying to apply some debuffs are still solid. And you can then use your likely much higher stat bonus.
I like the idea of splashing in some martial artists, but I can be a sucker for classics. I also like the idea of a linguist interrogator, though that’s less combat capable.
And add that to the possibility to make disarm when you crit and just trip when you don't
devise a stratagem is the most efficient way to disarm enemies, every swashbuckler will be envious of you
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It is kind of a fair/weird point though that Athletic Strategist 'takes away' your ability to reroll a bad DaS by changing tactics though.
Might be the only feat in the game (at least off the top of my head) that actually removes your ability to do something that a character who didn't take the feat can.
I can see the point here. But the other argument Would be how likely are you to make that athletic check without the feat? Since you want intelligence, and also dexterity, some constitution, and probably wisdom, depending on the game even charisma seems more impactful than strength. You loose a way to ditch bad rolls but attacking other places or trying to apply some debuffs are still solid. And you can then use your likely much higher stat bonus.
I like the idea of splashing in some martial artists, but I can be a sucker for classics. I also like the idea of a linguist interrogator, though that’s less combat capable.
And add that to the possibility to make disarm when you crit and just trip when you don't
devise a stratagem is the most efficient way to disarm enemies, every swashbuckler will be envious of you
Hmm. An Investigator with a thrown weapon in one hand and a whip in the other would really have a lot of options. Depending on the Devise a Stratagem roll and the position of the target they could pick a non-lethal melee attack, a lethal melee attack, a lethal ranged attack, a disarm attack, or a trip attack. Pick up a few Int-based cantrips and they have a good alternative for when the Devise a Stratagem roll is too horrible for any of those. That's a lot of flexibility considering you're using Int for all of those actions.
I think there is a lot of good possibilities there. Sadly, you can't generally combine Devise a Strategy and Eldritch Shot because you would need 4 Actions. If you are able to use Devise a Strategy as a free action (from Pursue a Lead), it would be quite awesome. The other Eldritch Archer abilities seem quite workable.makes me think a investigator with eldritch archer archetype would be really good.what about for other attacks? like say some of eldritch archers specialty 2 action ranged attacks?It applies to one Strike. So actual attacks are pretty much all fine, but on something like Flurry of Blows it only applies to the first attack, not both.
I missed the fact that Eldritch Shot uses a spell attack roll, so if you took Basic Spellcasting for Wizard MC or Witch MC then Eldritch Shot is already using Int. Wow!
Then you can use the other Eldritch Archer tricks with Devise a Stratagem. Wow, again!
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I missed the fact that Eldritch Shot uses a spell attack roll, so if you took Basic Spellcasting for Wizard MC or Witch MC then Eldritch Shot is already using Int. Wow!
I don't think so, it skips the spell attack roll and merges the effects with the bow Strike.
... Make a Strike with that bow. Your spell flies with the ammunition, using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell. ...
Eldritch Archer seems great for Investigators because of Enchanting Arrow, in my opinion. Investigators usually attack only once, so you give extra oomph to that single Strike.
I missed the fact that Eldritch Shot uses a spell attack roll, so if you took Basic Spellcasting for Wizard MC or Witch MC then Eldritch Shot is already using Int. Wow!I don't think so, it skips the spell attack roll and merges the effects with the bow Strike.
... Make a Strike with that bow. Your spell flies with the ammunition, using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell. ......
Rereading the feat, I think you're right. I was thinking the attack roll referred to the spell attack roll mentioned earlier in the description as a requirement for the spell.
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For anyone considering taking Eldritch Archer, I can save you some time searching through the CRB and APG. For Eldritch Shot, here is a list of 1 or 2 action spells which require a spell attack roll.
Cantrips
Acid Splash (Arcane and Primal)
Divine Lance (Divine)
Produce Flame (Arcane and Primal)
Ray of Frost (Arcane and Primal)
Telekinetic Projectile (Arcane and Occult)
Level 1
Hydraulic Push (Arcane and Primal)
Ray of Enfeeblement (Arcane, Divine, and Occult)
Shocking Grasp (Arcane and Primal)
Level 2
Acid Arrow (Arcane and Primal)
Spiritual Weapon (Divine and Occult)
Telekinetic Maneuver (Arcane and Occult)
Level 3
Chilling Darkness (Divine)
Searing Light (Divine and Primal)
Level 5
Spiritual Guardian (Divine)
Level 6
Disintegrate (Arcane)
Level 8
Polar Ray (Arcane and Primal)
I didn't include any Focus Spells.
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Polar Ray?
I'm not sure Spiritual Weapon or Spiritual Guardian would work since they create a free standing effect that attacks somewhat independently of the actual spellcasting.
Polar Ray?
I'm not sure Spiritual Weapon or Spiritual Guardian would work since they create a free standing effect that attacks somewhat independently of the actual spellcasting.
Thanks! I missed polar ray because it lacks an Attack tag. Weird, but I've added it.
I have the same issue with Spiritual Weapon and Spiritual Guardian, but they do seem to fit the requirements. When cast, both spells immediately make a Strike using your Spell Attack Roll so making a Spell Attack Roll is a requirement rather than an option.
I'm pretty sure their more spell attacks but yeah question is what tradition would you go as witch opens up alot of them compared to wizard we get better return, probally if you go forensic methodlogy could use familar to help with battle medicine so not only be good spell archer but also good healer, skill user and decent damage.
If you find any other spells that work, please let us know. There might be some from other sources.
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If you're going to go Eldritch Archer as an Investigator, I would recommend going cleric to get a good focus spell, then using adapted cantrip (or similar) to get either produce flame or telekinetic projectile on your spell list.
The chief issue with Eldritch Shot is that it's 3 actions, which means you need free action stratagem (target is the target of your lead) to make use of this combo.
A build like this
1: Any
2: Cleric Dedication, if you are an ancient elf and already have this then Red Herring or Solid Lead
4: Domain Initiate (Decay, Cold or Fire - I recommend Kerkamoth for Decay as it gives Disintegrate, otherwise none of the deities are particularly better or worse).
6: Basic cleric spellcasting
8: Eldritch Archer Dedication
10: Suspect of Opportunity
12: Expert cleric spellcasting
14: Divine Breadth
16: Any
18: Master cleric spellcasting
20: Everyone's a suspect
Could work well
If you're going to go Eldritch Archer as an Investigator, I would recommend going cleric to get a good focus spell, then using adapted cantrip (or similar) to get either produce flame or telekinetic projectile on your spell list.
The chief issue with Eldritch Shot is that it's 3 actions, which means you need free action stratagem (target is the target of your lead) to make use of this combo.
A build like this
1: Any
2: Cleric Dedication, if you are an ancient elf and already have this then Red Herring or Solid Lead
4: Domain Initiate (Decay, Cold or Fire - I recommend Kerkamoth for Decay as it gives Disintegrate, otherwise none of the deities are particularly better or worse).
6: Basic cleric spellcasting
8: Eldritch Archer Dedication
10: Suspect of Opportunity
12: Expert cleric spellcasting
14: Divine Breadth
16: Any
18: Master cleric spellcasting
20: Everyone's a suspect
Could work well
Thankfully it has more feats as well. You can easily just take telikenetic projectile cantrip and then never take any spell casting slots, just the different arrows it can provide.
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You are correct that Eldritch Shot is not, itself, a Strike, but you do make a Strike as part of using Eldritch Shot. Eldritch Shot isn't a Strike, but the Strike is still a Strike. So Devise a Stratagem is applied to the Strike that is 'within' the Eldritch Shot.
(All of this presumes that you are using DaS as a free action so you can fit all this into a turn.)