Witch's bottle is alright for a support/buff Witch that already has Cauldron, but it's a bit niche.
The Focus point cost limits it a bit.
It can potentially become better though depending on future Hex.
What about Siphon Power? I find it quite interesting though a bit limited for now, with the current spells you can use it for.
Witch's bottle is alright for a support/buff Witch that already has Cauldron, but it's a bit niche.
The Focus point cost limits it a bit.
It can potentially become better though depending on future Hex.
What about Siphon Power? I find it quite interesting though a bit limited for now, with the current spells you can use it for.
That's pretty dang good actually. It's effectively a free "signature spell" cast per day and it doesn't stipulate when on the turn you have to cast the spell.
That's a lot of variabilities considering it doesn't even have to be prepared.
I was thinking about the Witch's Bottle for Life Boost, but the problem is that if you give it to someone, then you can't react as easily to someone else that suddenly needs the healing.
But it certainly could have times where it is super useful. If my party Rogue loved to go off alone for example.
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Witch's bottle is alright for a support/buff Witch that already has Cauldron, but it's a bit niche.
The Focus point cost limits it a bit.
It can potentially become better though depending on future Hex.
What about Siphon Power? I find it quite interesting though a bit limited for now, with the current spells you can use it for.
That's pretty dang good actually. It's effectively a free "signature spell" cast per day and it doesn't stipulate when on the turn you have to cast the spell.
That's a lot of variabilities considering it doesn't even have to be prepared.
It is great, it just comes so late in the character build, compared to the Wizard Bonded Item which comes in at level 1 and is in some ways similar. Bonded only works on a spell you prepared, but still 15 levels later is a long time.
I was thinking about the Witch's Bottle for Life Boost, but the problem is that if you give it to someone, then you can't react as easily to someone else that suddenly needs the healing.
But it certainly could have times where it is super useful. If my party Rogue loved to go off alone for example.
I would argue that you can react better, because you can still cast Life Boost on someone else the same turn it is used by the person who drinks it.
Albeit, that's 2 Focus points for both of those castings, but certainly, if the situation called for it, on the table.
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I was thinking about the Witch's Bottle for Life Boost, but the problem is that if you give it to someone, then you can't react as easily to someone else that suddenly needs the healing.
But it certainly could have times where it is super useful. If my party Rogue loved to go off alone for example.
I would argue that you can react better, because you can still cast Life Boost on someone else the same turn it is used by the person who drinks it.
Albeit, that's 2 Focus points for both of those castings, but certainly, if the situation called for it, on the table.
Absolutely. Like so many things in PF2 it is an OK ability that has some uses, without being great.
Great would be if you could recover the Focus point spent to create the bottle, with some limit that you could only ever have 1 bottle created.
So how are people approaching divine Witches? I'm having difficulty finding a reason for it that I can't cover with a sorcerer, oracle, or cleric. And I'm not making any kind of argument here; I'm just wondering if anyone has come up with something solid for a divine Witch that takes advantage of what's on offer. Are people leaning towards healers, buffbots, other roles?
Witch's Charge looks like it might facilitate some buffery pretty well, and being built to take advantage of stoke the heart seems like a solid route. On the other hand, stoke the heart could just be a useful bonus rather than the cornerstone of a build.
Are you pushing for cantrips in other traditions like electric arc? Or maybe divine Witch as a dedication for something else? Any Sentinel Witches doing their best Warpriest impersonation?
So how are people approaching divine Witches? I'm having difficulty finding a reason for it that I can't cover with a sorcerer, oracle, or cleric. And I'm not making any kind of argument here; I'm just wondering if anyone has come up with something solid for a divine Witch that takes advantage of what's on offer. Are people leaning towards healers, buffbots, other roles?
Witch's Charge looks like it might facilitate some buffery pretty well, and being built to take advantage of stoke the heart seems like a solid route. On the other hand, stoke the heart could just be a useful bonus rather than the cornerstone of a build.
Are you pushing for cantrips in other traditions like electric arc? Or maybe divine Witch as a dedication for something else? Any Sentinel Witches doing their best Warpriest impersonation?
So I was working a build for a bit that basically did just that, went Witch's Charge, grabbed Stoke The Heart, and I grabbed Cauldron as well.
Then I was going to go Ritualist, but I hadn't mapped out the entirety of the build. Was working towards Mellisandre type character.
I think the key with Divine Witch is you have to really throw yourself into the other witch Feats in order to differentiate yourself. Like a Divine Witch that uses Malicious Shadows (no lock out time) and then casts/buffs with your other actions is significantly different from any Cleric/Sorcerer simply for the upkeep on it.
Can you prepare Spiritual Weapon? Sure, but it's not as strong and its also more limited.
Stoke the Heart is nice to put out there to start, but then it really matters what you do outside that.
And a Divine Witch has something a Bard lacks: Heal/Harm
Sure Soothe, but as others have pointed out before the average healing of Heal is much better and has many more options. Plus Harm is a whole other ball game.
Yeah, a lot of my thinking was on either focusing on the familiar or being selective with focus spells/lessons to beef up the divine list. Actually would have been pretty rad if Witch's Charge let you target your charge with personal-only spells... But at any rate, sending a familiar torpedo and not being overly concerned about it dying, even if that sucks for the day, seems like a decent move.
Problem I ran into for familiar focus, though, is that you really do want to keep stoke the heart up as long as you can without dropping so you don't miss out on uptime with your hitters (though, it's +2 to "damage rolls" so I assume that also works for spells too?)--but commanding your familiar is going to make it hard to do anything else on that turn.
I'm also thinking it wouldn't be a bad candidate for the Alchemist dedication if you wanted to heal a bit more (because Herbalist really wants you to pump up Nature) or pass out elixirs...
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So how are people approaching divine Witches? I'm having difficulty finding a reason for it that I can't cover with a sorcerer, oracle, or cleric. And I'm not making any kind of argument here; I'm just wondering if anyone has come up with something solid for a divine Witch that takes advantage of what's on offer. Are people leaning towards healers, buffbots, other roles?
Skills.
Being Int based, means trained in 9-10 skills
vs the maybe 3-4 you would get with the other classes.
Witch's Charge looks like it might facilitate some buffery pretty well, and being built to take advantage of stoke the heart seems like a solid route. On the other hand, stoke the heart could just be a useful bonus rather than the cornerstone of a build.
Are you pushing for cantrips in other traditions like electric arc? Or maybe divine Witch as a dedication for something else? Any Sentinel Witches doing their best Warpriest impersonation?
Generally, stoke the heart + bless / heroism, and use the third action to move, raise shield, life boost, or even just a weapon attack. Best for classes that can multi-attack, like a flurry ranger, monks, or polearm fighter who can get OA's.
Also Stoke the Heart does not say weapon damage. so put it on a wizard and have them spam magic missile. Or just a fireball.
Are there any other multi-hit spells that have fire/wind/water/earth so you could add in elemental betrayal?
And how would it work with persistent damage?
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One interesting take on a divine witch is to supplement proper healing with thoughtful gifted potions made using cauldron- itd be excellent for when you technically need to help more than one person, but someone needs the full power of a two action heal rather than the three action variant.
You could also skip the thoughtful gift and just hand them out beforehand, but then they may have issues with action economy, since it'd take more than just their third action to use it and because of handedness issues, so thoughtful gift is better, especially once you have a bunch of level 1 slots just sitting around.
It would also have an niche if you need/want to be the party healer AND crafter for some reason, since its the only int based divine caster in the game.
Yeah as much as I see people saying Cauldron isn't that good, it certainly looks solid for a Level 1 Class Feat.
If you go Human and grab Natural Ambition, I legit think it's a toss up between it and Cackle. If my Hexes were primarily buffs and I didn't feel starved for action economy, and wanted to provide the team benefits instead of myself, I'd probably choose Cauldron.
Are there any other multi-hit spells that have fire/wind/water/earth so you could add in elemental betrayal?
And how would it work with persistent damage?
At higher level, a Flame Oracle using Flame Fusillade with Incendiary Aura will love that Witch!
RAW it seem to work with Persistent damage that are rolled, but not the one that are fixed?
Regarding Malicious Shadow, one of the thing I find annoying, is that the associated spell, Chilling Darkness, has the Evil tag (on top of doing half evil damage which is pretty niche in most campaigns).
Similarly, a Witch with the night Patron who wants to follow the theme for their lessons is disadvantaged: Night give Sleep, Lesson of Dream gives Sleep, Lesson of Shadow gives Chilling Darkness... (Arguably though the Focus spells are very good).
Yeah as much as I see people saying Cauldron isn't that good, it certainly looks solid for a Level 1 Class Feat.
If you go Human and grab Natural Ambition, I legit think it's a toss up between it and Cackle. If my Hexes were primarily buffs and I didn't feel starved for action economy, and wanted to provide the team benefits instead of myself, I'd probably choose Cauldron.
The only trap with Cauldron is the cost. It is so expensive to craft at level. It will start to pay off and make sense when you can craft down about 4 levels or so.
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Yeah as much as I see people saying Cauldron isn't that good, it certainly looks solid for a Level 1 Class Feat.
If you go Human and grab Natural Ambition, I legit think it's a toss up between it and Cackle. If my Hexes were primarily buffs and I didn't feel starved for action economy, and wanted to provide the team benefits instead of myself, I'd probably choose Cauldron.
The only trap with Cauldron is the cost. It is so expensive to craft at level. It will start to pay off and make sense when you can craft down about 4 levels or so.
One thing to note about making potions is you are making them for the group so the group should be helping subsidize their consumables. So having somebody who can crank out some potions at low levels is nice if you are in a position where you are away from town for a while to keep up group consumables.
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The only trap with Cauldron is the cost. It is so expensive to craft at level. It will start to pay off and make sense when you can craft down about 4 levels or so.One thing to note about making potions is you are making them for the group so the group should be helping subsidize their consumables. So having somebody who can crank out some potions at low levels is nice if you are in a position where you are away from town for a while to keep up group consumables.
I made a thread about this during the playtest (that got zero attention). Cauldron makes no sense as a 1st level feat (trying to get AoN to pull up the final wording, but the site is being slow).
The amount of time it takes to craft potions is insane, its like 45 or 60 days, depending on exactly how you adjudicate it (and the exact wording on the final version).
Edit:
Read the final version. The only change they made was that you can also make oils.
The feat is still terrible.
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The amount of time it takes to craft potions is insane, its like 45 or 60 days, depending on exactly how you adjudicate it (and the exact wording on the final version).
Um? It's the normal crafting rules, you take four days if you pay full cost. The only difference is you don't need facilities and you can make six instead of four in those four days.
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Um? It's the normal crafting rules, you take four days if you pay full cost. The only difference is you don't need facilities and you can make six instead of four in those four days.
The amount of time it takes to craft potions is insane, its like 45 or 60 days, depending on exactly how you adjudicate it (and the exact wording on the final version).
Or you can do literally any downtime Earn Income task for 4 days, and then buy the potions (at the same total cost), coming out ahead.
Which, I'll point out, you don't need a 1st level feat to do.
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Um? It's the normal crafting rules, you take four days if you pay full cost. The only difference is you don't need facilities and you can make six instead of four in those four days.
The amount of time it takes to craft potions is insane, its like 45 or 60 days, depending on exactly how you adjudicate it (and the exact wording on the final version).
Or you can do literally any downtime Earn Income task for 4 days, and then buy the potions (at the same total cost), coming out ahead.
Which, I'll point out, you don't need a 1st level feat to do.
Can you buy 6 potions for the same cost?
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Can you buy 6 potions for the same cost?Um? It's the normal crafting rules, you take four days if you pay full cost. The only difference is you don't need facilities and you can make six instead of four in those four days.
The amount of time it takes to craft potions is insane, its like 45 or 60 days, depending on exactly how you adjudicate it (and the exact wording on the final version).
Or you can do literally any downtime Earn Income task for 4 days, and then buy the potions (at the same total cost), coming out ahead.
Which, I'll point out, you don't need a 1st level feat to do.
Given that you're in a place where they are for sale and that the dm has decided there isn't anything driving the market price up or down, crafting won't save you money. As I understand it, at least.
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Can you buy 6 potions for the same cost?
I don't know. Can you buy six potions at their listed price? Because that's the price to beat with crafting (that is: crafting six potions at their listed price takes 4 days).
Given that you're in a place where they are for sale and that the dm has decided there isn't anything driving the market price up or down, crafting won't save you money. As I understand it, at least.
While true, Cauldron doesn't alter that math. Not really.
So...what does it do?((And none of that gets into the fact that at 1st level you don't have enough money to pay for 6 potions!))
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Can you buy 6 potions for the same cost?I don't know. Can you buy six potions at their listed price? Because that's the price to beat with crafting (that is: crafting six potions at their listed price takes 4 days).
Given that you're in a place where they are for sale and that the dm has decided there isn't anything driving the market price up or down, crafting won't save you money. As I understand it, at least.While true, Cauldron doesn't alter that math. Not really.
So...what does it do?
It effectively lets you craft 1.5 potions per day instead of 1.
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...if you have the money.
Which you don't.
You can barely squeeze out the initial costs (ie. half) just out of chargen.
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Cackle is good. But less for (lol I sustain multiple spells) and more that you are sustaining a spell and need to use all 3 of your actions. You can cackle to keep it up.
Haven't found much to get excited about with the other focus powers though
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You can pool money with party members, make some money before crafting (you're expected to acquire 1k wealth by 2nd level and a minor healing potion is only 4gp), or retrain into it at a higher level.
I forgot that normally you need the magic crafting feat to make potions and oils, so there's that as well.
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Cauldron is nice because it lets you Craft magical items from level 1 without the need for the Magical Crafting feat.
It also gives you tons of formulas for free, at scaling item levels. What's more, unlike normal formulas in a book, these can't be taken from you (since your familiar knows them, and your familiar is effectively immortal).
On top of all that, it increases your crafting capacity too.
It also helps to unlock Temporary Potions at level 10. Free potions are always nice, unless you have a stickler GM who thinks witches suck and have to pay for them, unlike every similar ability published thus far.
It's not necessarily as good as the versatility of just taking the Magical Crafting feat, and it does share some of the pitfalls of this edition's crafting system, but it's still pretty nice for someone who wants to be a potion-brewing witch.
So...what does it do?
It fulfils a specific aspect of the class fantasy, comprehensively, for the cost of one class feat without risking breaking any game aspects by mistake.
Not every feat needs to be universally "good", and cauldron is fantastic if brewing potions is a core element to your character.
Could it be better? Theoretically. Maybe someday they'll do core class feature swaps, and there will be a "Cauldron Witch" that replaces their familiar with potion brewing via a mechanic thats like a lesser version of Alchemist alchemy, like an investigator.
But thats way outside of the power level of 1st level class feat. A limited skill feat with progressive scaling, on the other hand, is not.
...if you have the money.
Which you don't.
You can barely squeeze out the initial costs (ie. half) just out of chargen.
Yes, the cost just doesn't add up at level 1. However when you start to get to level 5-7 you can start to craft level 1 and 2 potions at an affordable rate. Assuming standard wealth by level progress it would be easy to start to make healing potions that are good for out of combat use or utility potions like invisibility.
Does it save you money? No...it is for access reasons. I think it shines more in a low magic setting where you can't easily buy things like potions. For example, the current campaign I am running the players have almost no options to buy magic items.
It isn't a great feat, I don't think it is worth taking at level one unless you are human and just want to take it with the bonus feat.
But it does have some uses.
Any good way of turning your familiar into a mount?
Any good way of turning your familiar into a mount?
Master's Form and a really leniant GM is about all you can hope for I think. At least right now.
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Any good way of turning your familiar into a mount?
You have to make it one size category larger than yourself, so I guess you can cast enlarge on it. It lasts 5 minutes so it could get you through a combat.
Any good way of turning your familiar into a mount?You have to make it one size category larger than yourself, so I guess you can cast enlarge on it. It lasts 5 minutes so it could get you through a combat.
that gives you flying a few levels earlier.
that gives you flying a few levels earlier.Any good way of turning your familiar into a mount?You have to make it one size category larger than yourself, so I guess you can cast enlarge on it. It lasts 5 minutes so it could get you through a combat.
Neat! Not necessarily exclusive to the Witch, though they will have enough abilities to get Fly and some others too.
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Yes, the cost just doesn't add up at level 1. However when you start to get to level 5-7 you can start to craft level 1 and 2 potions at an affordable rate.
Then why is it a FIRST level feat? If I'm not taking advantage of it until 5th, there's no reason it for it to be an option earlier.
Yes, the cost just doesn't add up at level 1. However when you start to get to level 5-7 you can start to craft level 1 and 2 potions at an affordable rate.Then why is it a FIRST level feat? If I'm not taking advantage of it until 5th, there's no reason it for it to be an option earlier.
Because it's not worth a higher level feat, probably.
Could it have been reworked into a higher-level option? Sure. But also... whatever, it's something you can pick up in a low-level slot for the flavor and get the benefit later.
that gives you flying a few levels earlier.Any good way of turning your familiar into a mount?You have to make it one size category larger than yourself, so I guess you can cast enlarge on it. It lasts 5 minutes so it could get you through a combat.
A creature needs the Mount special ability to fly with a rider, pretty sure.
A creature needs the Mount special ability to fly with a rider, pretty sure.that gives you flying a few levels earlier.Any good way of turning your familiar into a mount?You have to make it one size category larger than yourself, so I guess you can cast enlarge on it. It lasts 5 minutes so it could get you through a combat.
I believe that's specifically for animal companions (crb 214). The rules for mounted combat (crb 478) and the mount action (crb 472) don't mention that restriction.
What is the best spell for a Spellcasting familiar?
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What is the best spell for a Spellcasting familiar?
Final Sacrifice...
Oh, you mean what spell IT should cast... Blood Feast, if for no other reason that I want to see a cute little bunny hop up to a creature, see it's head split vertically into an enormous maw and have it feast upon it's blood.
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What is the best spell for a Spellcasting familiar?Final Sacrifice...
Oh, you mean what spell IT should cast... Blood Feast, if for no other reason that I want to see a cute little bunny hop up to a creature, see it's head split vertically into an enormous maw and have it feast upon it's blood.
THAT'S NO ORDINARY RABBIT!
What is the best spell for a Spellcasting familiar?Final Sacrifice...
Is there a way for your familiar to get a minion?
But, that would be a good spell for a witch, since familiar comes back daily.
Oh, you mean what spell IT should cast... Blood Feast, if for no other reason that I want to see a cute little bunny hop up to a creature, see it's head split vertically into an enormous maw and have it feast upon it's blood.
That works.
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What is the best spell for a Spellcasting familiar?
I would have said Heal, in case you drop and they can bring you back up,
But my familiar assures me the correct answer is Enhance Victuals.
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When I look at the witch I think
- There's no reason to play a divine witch over a cleric. The extra heals are too good relative to anything the witch gives (and the cleric also has good focuses if you were so inclined). The better familiar is ok and there's certainly some neat familiar abilities but it's going to be difficult to use the familiar constantly in combat without it getting killed. I played a wizard for six levels with a familiar and it basically died every time I got caught in an AoE. Sure you can use Phase Familiar to try to save it, or Life Link, but both of those have substantial costs.
- There's no reason to play an occult witch (IMO) over a bard. The bard just does the buff/debuff angle better.
- I would play an Arcane Witch over a Wizard or Arcane Sorc, though I think the three are close. Certainly my opinion of a spell blending evoker has improved over time, but I still value having good focus powers highly and the witch has three solid ones - Life Boost, Curse of Death, Glacial Heart. Sucks that the hex cantrip is pretty bad though.
- If I wanted to be a primal caster, I'd prob go elemental sorc, though Primal Witch maybe does have a place. Not sure about this one, but I think it'll come down to "does the party have someone covering Int skills or is that even needed"?
Does anyone know if Lesson of the Frozen Queen (and the Baba Yaga patron I guess) is supposed to be a rare lesson (and therefore requires GM approval) or if only the focus granted by it is Rare? I probably wouldn't play a witch if I was denied access to Glacial Heart.
Anything with a duration of sustained can be kept going all day by a familiar with the independent trait. The non-cantrip options seem to be unseen servant, hideous laughter, illusory creature, enthrall, locate, and prying eye. Maybe not the most impressive list of spells, but being able to force someone laugh forever is good leverage.
Does anyone know if Lesson of the Frozen Queen (and the Baba Yaga patron I guess) is supposed to be a rare lesson (and therefore requires GM approval) or if only the focus granted by it is Rare? I probably wouldn't play a witch if I was denied access to Glacial Heart.
Spirit Objects and Glacial Heart are rare, so I would assume the patron/lesson are as well.
Anything with a duration of sustained can be kept going all day by a familiar with the independent trait. The non-cantrip options seem to be unseen servant, hideous laughter, illusory creature, enthrall, locate, and prying eye. Maybe not the most impressive list of spells, but being able to force someone laugh forever is good leverage.
Sustain a Spell Action: "Sustaining a Spell for more than 10 minutes (100 rounds) ends the spell".
Anything with a duration of sustained can be kept going all day by a familiar with the independent trait. The non-cantrip options seem to be unseen servant, hideous laughter, illusory creature, enthrall, locate, and prying eye. Maybe not the most impressive list of spells, but being able to force someone laugh forever is good leverage.Sustain a Spell Action: "Sustaining a Spell for more than 10 minutes (100 rounds) ends the spell".
Ah, you're right. They really should just be written as "sustained up to 10 minutes" then.
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Spirit Objects and Glacial Heart are rare, so I would assume the patron/lesson are as well.
I don't think we can assume that specifically because all focus spells are at least uncommon, so unless it then follows that all lessons are uncommon (and therefore would need GM approval to take), then that doesn't follow.
Now it could be because they're spelt out as rare rather than uncommon that the patron/lesson are also rare as a departure from normal rules...