You think the wizard is bad? You guys must not have seen the witch yet. *smirks*
Not nearly as versatile, and far fewer spell slots, makes the wizard look much more attractive.
Now I'm deeply disturbed... Are Witches that bad in the new APG? And I was going to make them the "default" prep caster in my headcanon campaign setting...
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Now I'm deeply disturbed... Are Witches that bad in the new APG? And I was going to make them the "default" prep caster in my headcanon campaign setting...You think the wizard is bad? You guys must not have seen the witch yet. *smirks*
Not nearly as versatile, and far fewer spell slots, makes the wizard look much more attractive.
Take any criticism with a grain of salt. See for yourself on Thursday, and come to your own conclusion. No need to spell doom for a class before the street date.
Even if Witch may be mechanically less powerful than Wizard (which I strongly doubt), it has waaaay more flavour than any Wizard.
Right now, Wizard has as much flavour as soggy cardboard.
Now I'm deeply disturbed... Are Witches that bad in the new APG? And I was going to make them the "default" prep caster in my headcanon campaign setting...You think the wizard is bad? You guys must not have seen the witch yet. *smirks*
Not nearly as versatile, and far fewer spell slots, makes the wizard look much more attractive.
There are a few interesting things that Witch gets, based on what we've heard. If you don't care about those, a Wizard's extra slots are straightforward, practical choices. It's hard to not care about extra slots for reasons other than "It's not very interesting".
- They get a unique generally one-action cantrip at first level.- They get access to a wider variety of focus spells, and stronger ones.
- Their familiar comes back the next day instead of in a week, and they start with a focus spell to protect it.
- I'm pretty sure they start with more weapon proficiencies than Wizard, if that matters.
- They effectively start with the Familiar Focus thesis- that's a tie, unless you strongly prefer another thesis.
- And, of course, they're pick-a-tradition casters, so they can pick a non-arcane option.
- Specific feats. Just like you might be forced to play a Wizard if you want to really hide your casting, Witch can do stuff like cast a second summoning spell 8-9 levels earlier.
If you're going Arcane, don't like the currently available cantrip (or plan on just casting Shield), and don't plan on picking up hexes, Wizard sounds like a stronger base. There will be more arcane patron themes in the future, meaning more cantrip hexes to choose from.
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Even if Witch may be mechanically less powerful than Wizard (which I strongly doubt), it has waaaay more flavour than any Wizard.
Right now, Wizard has as much flavour as soggy cardboard.
The only other edition I've played of D&D/PF was 5e, and the flavor is the same here as it is there. How was the flavor different in PF1?
The only other edition I've played of D&D/PF was 5e, and the flavor is the same here as it is there. How was the flavor different in PF1?
Well for one, specialists were actually specialists. You actually had to
give up certain schools of magic, which might not have been a major problem but it did mean your Wizard played differently. And Spell Focus feats for increasing Spell DCs did mean your Wizard was better at some spells than others (note: I do not propose we bring the same effect back, but we should be able to add something interesting in the same vein).For another, you had feats throughout the wizard levels to make them truly different. Right now, whatever you take is basically "some more spells".
Spell selection is absolutely horrendous right now, and new releases did nothing to fix that. Did Players Handbook really need two different lvl1 spells that increase speed? Or two different lvl1 spells that increase your carrying capacity?
Some specialists - Illusionists for example - are okay, but most have extremely situational Focus spells and problems filling slots at particular levels.
I'm still super sore how they did not even bother giving Transmuters a cantrip.
This is also further exarcebated by moving a lot of useful spells into Evocation for some reason (How is Prestidigitation Evocation???), leaving other schools stripped and filled with extremely overnerfed (Mending? Really? And before you say "repairing Shields", please check Bulk limitations) or situational spells (Negate Aroma in Players Handbook? Why did you even bother? Especially since it's limited to only 1 creature).
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I think at this point, it is pretty clear that most and most flexible casting is definite the niche of the wizard. Some of the specializations still don't feel great. Focusing critique on the how and why those specializations feel lacking (like transmuters really needing a cantrip), and what kinds of spells we want more of (we asked for more single target damage spells and got a very good one), will likely help fill in the class, hopefully sooner than later.
Part of why I want to see a Magaambya academy AP focused upon aspects of magic itself, in a very different way than the ruin lords APs, is because I think it would be a natural place to add more archetypes, spells and metamagic feats for casters.
It's true that the witch seems to have a fair bit more fun conceptual description tied to it.
Now I'm deeply disturbed... Are Witches that bad in the new APG? And I was going to make them the "default" prep caster in my headcanon campaign setting...You think the wizard is bad? You guys must not have seen the witch yet. *smirks*
Not nearly as versatile, and far fewer spell slots, makes the wizard look much more attractive.
There are a few interesting things that Witch gets, based on what we've heard. If you don't care about those, a Wizard's extra slots are straightforward, practical choices. It's hard to not care about extra slots for reasons other than "It's not very interesting".
- They get a unique generally one-action cantrip at first level.
- They get access to a wider variety of focus spells, and stronger ones.
- Their familiar comes back the next day instead of in a week, and they start with a focus spell to protect it.
- I'm pretty sure they start with more weapon proficiencies than Wizard, if that matters.
- They effectively start with the Familiar Focus thesis- that's a tie, unless you strongly prefer another thesis.
- And, of course, they're pick-a-tradition casters, so they can pick a non-arcane option.
- Specific feats. Just like you might be forced to play a Wizard if you want to really hide your casting, Witch can do stuff like cast a second summoning spell 8-9 levels earlier.If you're going Arcane, don't like the currently available cantrip (or plan on just casting Shield), and don't plan on picking up hexes, Wizard sounds like a stronger base. There will be more arcane patron themes in the future, meaning more cantrip hexes to choose from.
With the exception of the summoning bit, I can confirm that these are all true. Witches with the right feats can drop prepared spells for summoning spells with 10 minutes of prep, similar to a wizard's Spell Substitution, but more limited. The witches version of the "Familiar Focus thesis" is weaker than Familiar Focus at low levels, but scales and becomes stronger than Familiar Focus at higher levels.
From what I've seen, besides the above, witches have two big strengths:
- Uber familiar options, many of which are also available to other casters
- Witches can be amazing at creating potions/oils, getting free temporary potions/oils on the daily.
From my perspective the wizard is hands-down the most versatile class in the game.
Provided you took the Spell Subsitution arcane thesis, I'd agree.
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With the exception of the summoning bit, I can confirm that these are all true. Witches with the right feats can drop prepared spells for summoning spells with 10 minutes of prep, similar to a wizard's Spell Substitution, but more limited. The witches version of the "Familiar Focus thesis" is weaker than Familiar Focus at low levels, but scales and becomes stronger than Familiar Focus at higher levels.
From what I've seen, besides the above, witches have two big strengths:
- Uber familiar options, many of which are also available to other casters
- Witches can be amazing at creating potions/oils, getting free temporary potions/oils on the daily.
Ah, sorry, not "Familiar Focus", I'm mixing that the name up. "Improved Familiar Attunement" thesis.
Ooh, I'm definitely interested in the free potions stuff.
As for the summoning, Wizard needs to use Quicken Spell to shorten the second summons to two actions and fit it alongside concentrating on the first summons. (10th level feat, daily resource.) Witch just needs Cackle to spend a focus point on free-action sustaining the first one for the one round to cast the second summons. (1st level feat, rechargeable focus point.)
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* Wizard Archetypes were pure flavor: Spell Sage who became a lot more flexible; The Spellslinger shooting spells using a gun; Chronomancer which is one of the coolest archetypes; Thasilonian Specialist doubling down on your Arcane School; Shadow Caster the outright best Illusionist and full of that Nidal flavor; Elder Mythos School because Lovecraftian horror is always fun. Etc.
It was awful, but I legit miss my old Scrollmaster Wizard. No one ever expects to get papercut to death.
* Wizard Archetypes were pure flavor: Spell Sage who became a lot more flexible; The Spellslinger shooting spells using a gun; Chronomancer which is one of the coolest archetypes; Thasilonian Specialist doubling down on your Arcane School; Shadow Caster the outright best Illusionist and full of that Nidal flavor; Elder Mythos School because Lovecraftian horror is always fun. Etc.It was awful, but I legit miss my old Scrollmaster Wizard. No one ever expects to get papercut to death.
Sorry, I saw that anime. ;)
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As for the summoning, Wizard needs to use Quicken Spell to shorten the second summons to two actions and fit it alongside concentrating on the first summons. (10th level feat, daily resource.) Witch just needs Cackle to spend a focus point on free-action sustaining the first one for the one round to cast the second summons. (1st level feat, rechargeable focus point.)
Oh wow. That is seriously cool.
When I saw the cackle hex I was like "that's sort of okay I guess" but now I'm like "I want to make a witch summoner."
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Flavor can be added by role play and back story too. Sometimes the flavors defined by the class also feel kinda restrictive to me. That's why I don't like to play a sorcerer, for example - there is never a bloodline that has the right combo of flavor elements I really want. I consider it a strength of the wizard class that it is sort of vanilla.
Ah, the roleplay argument. The problem with that is that you can't show your difference in mechanical terms. Then why bother having different weapons? Just give everyone the same weapon attack and tell them to "roleplay for flavour".
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Sorry, I saw that anime. ;)
* Wizard Archetypes were pure flavor: Spell Sage who became a lot more flexible; The Spellslinger shooting spells using a gun; Chronomancer which is one of the coolest archetypes; Thasilonian Specialist doubling down on your Arcane School; Shadow Caster the outright best Illusionist and full of that Nidal flavor; Elder Mythos School because Lovecraftian horror is always fun. Etc.It was awful, but I legit miss my old Scrollmaster Wizard. No one ever expects to get papercut to death.
Oh Japan...
Wait until I tell you about this Gunslinger who shoots ghost-touch bullets BUT fires his guns upside down!
Oh Japan...It was awful, but I legit miss my old Scrollmaster Wizard. No one ever expects to get papercut to death.Sorry, I saw that anime. ;)
Its a great anime, too.
As for the summoning, Wizard needs to use Quicken Spell to shorten the second summons to two actions and fit it alongside concentrating on the first summons. (10th level feat, daily resource.) Witch just needs Cackle to spend a focus point on free-action sustaining the first one for the one round to cast the second summons. (1st level feat, rechargeable focus point.)Oh wow. That is seriously cool.
When I saw the cackle hex I was like "that's sort of okay I guess" but now I'm like "I want to make a witch summoner."
Glad you like it! My favorite frivolous use I've come up with so far is maintaining three castings of Prestidigitation at the same time.
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One thing I want to mention that is lacking in the discussion is that if your party has more than one Spellcaster and a Wizard is present... that Wizard is probably NEVER going to be able to take full advantage of their increased number of Spell Slots because the group will likely be forcing a full rest/prepare when the other Spellcasters run out of non-cantrip spells.
Sure, they'll get another perhaps, 2-3 Spells off during the combat where the other Spellcaster(s) run dry but the remaining ones that they prepared are going to just go to waste if the Cleric, Bard, or Druid insists that they need to rest in order to continue the adventure.
That said, this isn't always a bad thing really because that gives the Wizard incentive to prepare non-combat Spells in at least one or two of their Spell Slots of varying level so they aren't just going to bed salty that they didn't get the chance to use their last three Fireballs that they prepared.
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No matter how much of you add or chamge the flavor there is always a baseline flavor for the setting. PF2 Wizards barely even scratch the amount of variation in mecahnics and flavor compared to the PF1 Wizard.
Eh, we're only a year in. We've also got a lot of variety in archetypes, even if their flavor isn't tied in to Wizard. Wizard with Blessed One to confer divine healing magic from Nethys, Wizard with Scroll Master to produce scrolls of another magical tradition, Wizard with Sentinel for an armored mage, Wizard with Beast Master for an animal companion to protect them in combat, and so on.
PF1 had lore stuff that its own mechanics didn't support well.
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Yeah, of you are going to compare it should just be base class vs base class. But like I said, I'm not comparing, just looking at 2e as a stand alone game.No matter how much of you add or chamge the flavor there is always a baseline flavor for the setting. PF2 Wizards barely even scratch the amount of variation in mecahnics and flavor compared to the PF1 Wizard.Eh, we're only a year in. We've also got a lot of variety in archetypes, even if their flavor isn't tied in to Wizard. Wizard with Blessed One to confer divine healing magic from Nethys, Wizard with Scroll Master to produce scrolls of another magical tradition, Wizard with Sentinel for an armored mage, Wizard with Beast Master for an animal companion to protect them in combat, and so on.
PF1 had lore stuff that its own mechanics didn't support well.
At least we're not getting those silly world shattering story events every ten years like many other systems do to try and gloss over the changes. It gets really stupid after the 2nd or 3rd such event.
Personally, I would rather just have it hand waved away, or allow GMs and players to explain things on a case by case basis at their own tables.
Does it really matter that an NPC used a spell that no longer exists to change the course of an adventure in 1st Edition?
Not at all!
It's enough for most GMs and players following up (say, in a sequal adventure) to know that the NPC changed the course of the adventure with a spell.
Please don't try to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Paizo has numerous better ways to spend their time and resources.
I will say, I do really enjoy them taking inspiration from cool PF1 abilities. Stuff like familiar body doubles, etc.
I’m looking forward to my PFS Wizard retraining into Loremaster. I wasn’t doing a whole lot with my 2nd and 4th level class feats, and now the Enigma Bard can eat his heart out. :P
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As for the summoning, Wizard needs to use Quicken Spell to shorten the second summons to two actions and fit it alongside concentrating on the first summons. (10th level feat, daily resource.) Witch just needs Cackle to spend a focus point on free-action sustaining the first one for the one round to cast the second summons. (1st level feat, rechargeable focus point.)Oh wow. That is seriously cool.
When I saw the cackle hex I was like "that's sort of okay I guess" but now I'm like "I want to make a witch summoner."
That is a good point. And augment summoning is only two feats away.
But I still think Witch appears weaker than Wizard, to be playtested. Curse of Death seems good.
Can Cackle be accessed through the Witch Dedication?
Can Cackle be accessed through the Witch Dedication?
Maybe. It is a witch-feat, which nominally would give access with enough dedication devotion (ie. your second multiclassing feat) but I am cognizant of there being rules-text that I'm not aware of that may make it harder or impossible.
A nice little bonus witches get is that they get to learn spells from scrolls without making a check or spending gold by feeding it to their familiar. It was there in the playtest too.
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I doubt the Witch will be trash. Any prepared caster with access to multiple traditions is going to be strong to some degree.
It might just be that the value of debuffing enemies isn't on par with buffing allies, like a Bard. A party with a Bard and a Witch are probably going to be hell on wheels.
Can't wait to get my copy so I can actually crack the math on everything.
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From my perspective the wizard is hands-down the most versatile class in the game.You think the wizard is bad? You guys must not have seen the witch yet. *smirks*
Not nearly as versatile, and far fewer spell slots, makes the wizard look much more attractive.
Druid is more versatile. It's not even a debate.
Druid is a fine class if casting spells from your spell slots is a once an encounter maximum activity. Same with Bards and Clerics (outside of healing). Wizard and Sorcerer are the only classes that really have multiple spell slot spells an encounter potential if your adventuring day is going to be more than 3 encounters a day.
For a lot of people that is clearly not exciting enough to base a class around, but if you love casters for the spell slots, the wizard is a good class.
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The incredibly broad range of archetypes mean that a lot of classes who "owned" specific game mechanics (snares, archery, animal companions, elixirs, poisons, etc.) just...don't. They may still be the "best" at them, but whatever. If you don't like Wizard feats, pick up a dedication and become a linguist, or an herbalist, or a ritualist (uncommon), or a loremaster, or a scroll trickster, or an investigator...
APG archetypes break character design options wide open. If your wizard (or really any class) still doesn't have any fun or interesting flavor after the APG, it's because you aren't bringing enough imagination.
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Flavor can be added by role play and back story too. Sometimes the flavors defined by the class also feel kinda restrictive to me. That's why I don't like to play a sorcerer, for example - there is never a bloodline that has the right combo of flavor elements I really want. I consider it a strength of the wizard class that it is sort of vanilla.PF1 Wizard had tons of flavor:
* Specialization was meaningful.* Exclusive Wizard feats expanded on their capabilities.
* Arcane Discovery allowed them to mess with spells.
* Arcane schools actually mattered. They did not just give 1 extra spell and a weak ability but 1 extra spell, and anywhere from 2 to 3 abilities based or that affect your spells.
* Wizard Archetypes were pure flavor: Spell Sage who became a lot more flexible; The Spellslinger shooting spells using a gun; Chronomancer which is one of the coolest archetypes; Thasilonian Specialist doubling down on your Arcane School; Shadow Caster the outright best Illusionist and full of that Nidal flavor; Elder Mythos School because Lovecraftian horror is always fun. Etc.
Heck even Familiar Adept is 10 times better than the Familiar Thesis, and 10 times more flavorful.
Just to make sure how many features do you think wizards had in PF1?
Wizards were one of the most versatile classes when it came to flavor, and most came from the sheer diversity of spells and useable fun builds. But now its shoe horned into being the "versatile caster" or a worse version of all the other casters. As far as I know there are only 3 (maybe 4) useable wizards in PF2.
Just curious, are we comparing all the years of PF1 to newly released PF2 wizard? Because if it's the former, then about every PF1 class is gonna win.
But a core wizard in pf1 vs core wizard in pf2 doesn't really come off as more flavourful, they got possibly the dullest class table of any class, only gaining Arcane Bond, Arcane School, Cantrips and scribe scrolls. The rest is 4 bonus spells from 1 to 20. Hardly coming off as so much better than the new one. PF2 Wiz has much more choices per class feat compared to PF1's bonus feats, and can branch into multiple options. Of course not every options is gonna be on par with each other, but as far as I know, somoene wanting familiars for flavour and story won't really be pining over that eschew materials they gave up instead. Not everyone picks things that are the most powerful.
I'm sure the schools are differently powered, but that's likely a byproduct of streamlining things. I'm guessing another reason is that school spells can be used all day long as long as you get time to refocus.
Can Cackle be accessed through the Witch Dedication?Maybe. It is a witch-feat, which nominally would give access with enough dedication devotion (ie. your second multiclassing feat) but I am cognizant of there being rules-text that I'm not aware of that may make it harder or impossible.
Looking at it, there's nothing in the feat or focus spell that would prevent you from doing this as early as level 4 with your own class' spells.
Looking at it, there's nothing in the feat or focus spell that would prevent you from doing this as early as level 4 with your own class' spells.Can Cackle be accessed through the Witch Dedication?Maybe. It is a witch-feat, which nominally would give access with enough dedication devotion (ie. your second multiclassing feat) but I am cognizant of there being rules-text that I'm not aware of that may make it harder or impossible.
Cool, that's what I suspected was the case, but had no way to rule out inaccessibility.
That could already happen with or without the APG, doesn’t change what people have been saying thus far.
Okay, feel free to show me where a wizard could have free snares/day at level 2 prior to the APG. Or the equivalent of bardic lore. Or alchemical healing items/antidotes/antiplagues that stay three levels behind starting at 6th level for only 2 feats. Or (wizard-speed) scaling training in all simple and martial bows. Or lay on hands at level 2. Or an animal companion that improves at the same level as a druid's and can reach specialized companion.
The non-multiclass archetypes get access to a lot of abilities that, for mukticlass builds, were out of reach or lagged way behind due to qualifying at only half your level for feats in your extra classes.
It is largely comparing PF1 Wizard to PF2. I like the Wizard in PF2 and is much more balanced. This came up in 5e also. People were saying over and over the wizard and casters in general were nerfed. My opinion they needed to be rebalanced from 3rd/3.5. Also 5e seems to be doing just fine with the rebalance of casters. As indicated above very same thing was said about Pathfinder 1 versus 3.5. Wizards and casters were nerfed in PF1. I think the rebalancing in PF2 of casters and Wizards specifically was needed thing from PF1. Also there seems to be no agreement of what the issues are so very hard thing to fix.
As far as the Witch goes they gave good update in preview video's of the witch Paizo Con in the APG panel. They I think do have access to divine lists also now which was change from playtest.