Hello everyone,
So in the past there's been quite some back and forth discussing which sources grant focus points and such. Especially the cleric class seems to be discussed quite a bit.
It seems we have more or less reached a consensus that Domain Initiate grants a focus spell each time you select it, as you can read here and here
Which by the way is backed up by Herolab, as it grants the second focus point for the second Domain Initiate feat, and since it's something like the 'official' Pathfinder 2E character builder that you pay quite some money for to make rules compliant characters, I'm even more sold on the idea that each Domain Initiate grants a new Focus Point (up to a max of 3 of course).
Last week my copy of Lost Omens Gods & Magic arrived and I stumbled upon the Expanded Domain Initiate Feat, which got me thinking again. Apparently I'm not the only one, so I want to bring coriolis's question up in the Rules Discussion part of the forum as well.
So let me hear your thoughts on that.
I'm thinking it does add another Focus Point to your pool, based this bit from p. 302
"If you have multiple abilities that give
you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool."
And this bit on Domain Spells
"Domain spells are a type of focus spell. It costs 1 Focus Point to cast a focus spell, and you start with a focus pool of 1 Focus Point."
As I said, I'm curious what you're thinking.
/K
This feat doesnt give you a pool since its prerequisite is that you already have a feat that would give you a pool I would think.
Thanks for your replies. I honestly don't have a strong opinion on that topic, I'm just genuinely curious.
So let me play devil's advocate for a second.
Feats that grant additional Focus Points say so.
I don't think that's necessarily true. Domain Initiate does not specifically state you get an additional Focus Point when you select the Feat a second time. It just says
Special You can select this feat multiple times, selecting a different domain each time and gaining its domain spell.
It's the domain spell bit that I quoted above, which makes it reasonable to think you would gain an additional Focus Point and Expanded Domain Initiate does state quite the same:
You gain access to [...] an initial domain spell for that domain.
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The bit on p. 302 regarding gaining additional Focus Points is specific to multiple abilities granting a Focus Pool. Expanded Domain Initiate does not grant a Focus Pool.
It's arguable that this makes it weaker than it should be, but the rules are crystal clear on what it does. It does not give a Focus Point, as it neither says it does so, nor says it grants a Focus Pool.
Let's hope the pre APG errata clarifies the extra Focus Point rule, as either in the linked threads there seem to be no consensus wether or not Domain Initiate does add to the Focus pool.
My thoughts are that it makes sense for any feat granting a focus spell to also grant a focus point. So unless you're already maxed at 3, I'd say it gives you one.This is a fine House Rule.
It is very, very, explicitly not how the rules actually work.
How the rules actually work leads to you getting a different amount of focus points if you take the same feats in a different order… so you can see why people feel that it is a mistake that needs correction. (I'm not saying it's not RAW, just the RAW seems wrong)
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How the rules actually work leads to you getting a different amount of focus points if you take the same feats in a different order… so you can see why people feel that it is a mistake that needs correction. (I'm not saying it's not RAW, just the RAW seems wrong)
Oh, totally. I just feel that, especially in the Rules Discussion Forum, we should always be very clear on the distinction between how we think the rules should work, and how the rules do work.
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How the rules actually work leads to you getting a different amount of focus points if you take the same feats in a different order… so you can see why people feel that it is a mistake that needs correction. (I'm not saying it's not RAW, just the RAW seems wrong)My thoughts are that it makes sense for any feat granting a focus spell to also grant a focus point. So unless you're already maxed at 3, I'd say it gives you one.This is a fine House Rule.
It is very, very, explicitly not how the rules actually work.
What's an example of that? The Rules say that if an ability gives you a focus pool, it instead increases an existing pool if you have one. The order never matters.
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Let's look at the whole piece of text that the various sentence fragments are cited from;
FOCUS POINTS FROM MULTIPLE SOURCES
It’s possible, especially through archetypes, to gain focus spells and Focus Points from more than one source. If this happens, you have just one focus pool, adding all the Focus Points together to determine the total size of your pool. (Remember that the maximum number of Focus Points a pool can have is 3.) If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool. For instance, if you were a cleric with the Domain Initiate feat, you would have a pool with 1 Focus Point. Let’s say you then took the champion multiclass archetype and the Healing Touch feat. Normally, this feat would give you a focus pool. Since you already have one, it instead increases your existing pool’s capacity by 1.
Focus Points are not differentiated by source; you can spend any of your Focus Points on any of your focus spells. Likewise, when you Refocus, you get back a point as long as you follow the guidelines of any abilities that granted you focus spells. Having Focus Points from multiple sources doesn’t change the tradition of your spells; if you had both cleric domain spells and druid order spells, your domain spells would remain divine and the order spells primal. This could mean that you need to keep track of a different proficiency and ability modifier with the spell DC and spell attack roll of different focus spells.
The key here is what "different sources" are. Since most of the text is discussing multiclassing scenarios, I think what they mean is that if you have one feat from one class granting you a focus pool, and another one from another class granting a focus pool, then you have different sources.
If the most straightforward way to get more focus was to take two abilities in the same class that grant a focus pool, then surely it would have been mentioned at least once in this text. But instead it just keeps discussing different classes as being different sources.
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Let's look at the whole piece of text that the various sentence fragments are cited from;
FOCUS POINTS FROM MULTIPLE SOURCES
It’s possible, especially through archetypes, to gain focus spells and Focus Points from more than one source. If this happens, you have just one focus pool, adding all the Focus Points together to determine the total size of your pool. (Remember that the maximum number of Focus Points a pool can have is 3.) If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool. For instance, if you were a cleric with the Domain Initiate feat, you would have a pool with 1 Focus Point. Let’s say you then took the champion multiclass archetype and the Healing Touch feat. Normally, this feat would give you a focus pool. Since you already have one, it instead increases your existing pool’s capacity by 1.
Focus Points are not differentiated by source; you can spend any of your Focus Points on any of your focus spells. Likewise, when you Refocus, you get back a point as long as you follow the guidelines of any abilities that granted you focus spells. Having Focus Points from multiple sources doesn’t change the tradition of your spells; if you had both cleric domain spells and druid order spells, your domain spells would remain divine and the order spells primal. This could mean that you need to keep track of a different proficiency and ability modifier with the spell DC and spell attack roll of different focus spells.
The key here is what "different sources" are. Since most of the text is discussing multiclassing scenarios, I think what they mean is that if you have one feat from one class granting you a focus pool, and another one from another class granting a focus pool, then you have different sources.
If the most straightforward way to get more focus was to take two abilities in the same class that grant a focus pool, then surely it would have been mentioned at least once in this text. But instead it just keeps...
If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool.
That seems crystal clear to me. Just because the author of the example chose to use multi class examples doesn't invalidate it.
What's an example of that? The Rules say that if an ability gives you a focus pool, it instead increases an existing pool if you have one. The order never matters.One I've seen come up is the Basic Bloodline Spell Sorcerer multiclass feat, which instead of using the normal language for focus says:
If you don’t already have one, you also gain a focus pool of 1 Focus Point, which you can Refocus without any special effort.
which suggests that if you already have a focus pool, the feat doesn't expand it or give you access to the sorcerer refocus mechanic.
But even that's more a matter of a badly worded feat than a systemic rules problem.
The key here is what "different sources" are. Since most of the text is discussing multiclassing scenarios, I think what they mean is that if you have one feat from one class granting you a focus pool, and another one from another class granting a focus pool, then you have different sources.
If the most straightforward way to get more focus was to take two abilities in the same class that grant a focus pool, then surely it would have been mentioned at least once in this text. But instead it just keeps discussing different classes as being different sources.
I haven's seen a very well defined definition of what a "source" is in any of the 2E books yet. So I'm a also going with "If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool."
Again, this is backed up by Herolab in the case of two Domain Initiate Feats, you get 2 Focus Points, and I personally won't argue against the Pathfinder-exclusive, Paizo-endorsed 30$+ character creation software. Sure there can be bugs, but it's more likely we're focussing too much on the written word rather than the intention.I was just wondering since Domain Initiate and Expanded Domain Initiate are so so close in what they do, if it's a valid interpretation that you gain a Focus Point by getting access to a domain spell and not directly through the feat itself. Basically the whole two paragraphs about Domain Spells and Focus Spells could be copied to Expanded Domain Initiate without changing anything at all. I totally see how you could argue that it doesn't give an additional Focus Point, but for me it's not as clear cut as for some of you.
I guess we need a clear statement on Focus Points from someone official in the future. I'm hoping it's something along the lines what mrspaghetti said that every new focus spell grants a focus point until you have three. So far focus spells didn't strike me as massively overpowered and I don't see why you want to have them so restricted.
I guess we need a clear statement on Focus Points from someone official in the future. I'm hoping it's something along the lines what mrspaghetti said that every new focus spell grants a focus point until you have three. So far focus spells didn't strike me as massively overpowered and I don't see why you want to have them so restricted.
Especially as the recovery of focus points per day is limited until you get high level feats.
Sure a Human Cleric spending all their feats on new domains could have 3 Focus points by level 2, but then would only be able to recover 1 per rest.
All it does is give a bit more lasting power on an adventuring day.
The only problem I see is that not all classes have the same access to extra focus spells at low level.
That would be op ( even if you can't recover them, just having the possibility to use 3x encounter by lvl 2 is totally off ).
If you can't recover them, then you can't use 3x per encounter, can you?
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As kendaan said
Sure a Human Cleric spending all their feats on new domains could have 3 Focus points by level 2, but then would only be able to recover 1 per rest.So, as you probably have already read, you will have a pool of 3 points, and you'll be able to eventually use more than one point if needed ( obviously you will be able to recover all of them, but the possibility to use the focus power 2 more time if needed, is monstrous ).
Considering that focus point rules are "you can only recover 1 if you spent at least 1 since your last rest."
If you blow all 3 points in a single fight, you can only recover 1. And can't recover more until you spend 1.
You will not have a full 3 points again until you rest for the night.
REFOCUS
CONCENTRATE EXPLORATION
Requirements You have a focus pool, and you have spent at
least 1 Focus Point since you last regained any Focus Points.
Paizo already thought about large focus pools at low levels and already put things in place to keep the power of focus points down until you take an advanced refocus feat.
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Paizo really shot themselves in the foot being FAR too wordy on Focus Pools and points.
It is clear to me that that the overall intent seems to be that when you are granted a Focus Spell from any source you are supposed to increase your Focus Pool by 1 up to a max of 3 points. They included contradictory, overly complex rules that are scattered around the CRB instead of just stating this flat-out at the beginning of the Spells chapter once.
On the topic of "different sources," I am firmly in the camp that what they mean by this is individual Character Option Choices, not Feats or features that can be taken multiple times. If you are looking at a Class feat that gives you a choice of a Focus Spell from a list that you can take multiple times for different Focus Spells you should gain a Focus Point every time until you're capped out at 3.
Of course, this is just my interpretation of things and is far from some objective undeniable truth but I believe they were simply too paranoid that if they wrote the rules behind this up in a simple no-nonsense way it would have resulted in probably future-proofing failures but I really do believe that they bought the cats to kill the frogs and lost the birds, bugs, and worms in the process.
I can't really think of any lvl1 focus power or combination of focus spells that would be broken to be able to use 3 at level 2 in one encounter per day.
Plus, with the most restrictive interpretation, Druid of the Storm or Leaf order can reach the same at level 4 with multiclass dedication and a focus granting feat.
To reach the same at level 2, the Cleric is passing on his ancestry feat for Natural ambition, and his second level feat, while Clerics do have some nice other options at low level.
Actually a Gnome Storm Druid can already do it at level 1 (or a Leaf Druid of any ancestry but it's less impressive with goodberry).
With 2 point, plus the familiar focus ability, they can already use a focus 3 time in a fight, RAW.
I'll be honest, as a person who has been immersed in the system since release day, I still find what gives you focus points to be incredibly confusing. It could have definitely used some clarifications in the CRB.
Special Any special qualities of the rule are explained in this section. Usually this section appears in feats you can select more than once, explaining what happens when you do.
RAW the special text tells you what you get when you select the feat again and under what conditions, a new spell from a different domain.
Focus spells don't give focus points or increase your pool, so the second selection doesn't give you an increase.
Balance wise it would allow a cleric to spam a lot in a single key encounter during the early levels; making harder combats potentially much easier (and we don't know what future focus spells will be like). As a house rule it could also have negative balance effects on other classes with different focus power combos as the system matures further, too hard to tell.
Personally I think it is fine as is, 1 focus point is already enough and if you choose the feat twice it is because you wanted the flexibility of that focus spell.
Focus spells don't give focus points or increase your pool, so the second selection doesn't give you an increase.
Domain spells do, though. To repeat myself: As long as the official pathfinder 2e character builder software gives me a second focus point for a second Domain Initiate, I don't see how this could be a debate really. The text in Domain initiate in combo with the well-cited sidebar on p.302 backs this up in my opinion as well.
I'd love to take this pragmatic approach to the Expanded Domain Initiate as well, but I'm not willing to spend 40$ on that experiment, just to prove a point or not.
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Disagree with Gleeful's ruling. The special text tells you what you change on a repeat selection, but it doesn't mean the rest of the feat's text disappears. If the intent is to prevent you from getting additional focus points, it needs to be a lot more explicit about it.
Balance wise it would allow a cleric to spam a lot in a single key encounter during the early levels; making harder combats potentially much easier (and we don't know what future focus spells will be like). As a house rule it could also have negative balance effects on other classes with different focus power combos as the system matures further, too hard to tell.
But Storm Druid already can, at level 1 with gnome ancestry, lvl2 with order explorer leaf.
All it costs them in a fight, is 1 action to have their familiar use the refocus power.
Then you have a Druid who can cast 3 time tempest surge which is probably the most powerful level 1 blast focus spell at the moment.
Domain spells do, though. To repeat myself: As long as the official pathfinder 2e character builder software gives me a second focus point for a second Domain Initiate, I don't see how this could be a debate really. The text in Domain initiate in combo with the well-cited sidebar on p.302 backs this up in my opinion as well.
I'd love to take this pragmatic approach to the Expanded Domain Initiate as well, but I'm not willing to spend 40$ on that experiment, just to prove a point or not.
Herolab isn't official or without fault... I own it myself (both online and the old classic for pf1e)
I am citing rules and backing them up. Just saying "nuh uh" isn't a cogent argument. Again, relying on third party software that often has mistakes and or bugs to prove a ruling is not sound.
Expanded domain initiate doesn't grant you it either as it doesn't mention points or pool at all. You can make an argument as to what you think the designers intended; but it doesn't match with any rules written in the book thst have been mentioned here or that I can find.
Disagree with Gleeful's ruling. The special text tells you what you change on a repeat selection, but it doesn't mean the rest of the feat's text disappears. If the intent is to prevent you from getting additional focus points, it needs to be a lot more explicit about it.
It says what happens when you take it a second time. Not what changes, literally in the "how to read feats" quote I shared earlier.
You, choose a different domain than the first, and gain a spell from it.What you gain is specified and impacted.
But Storm Druid already can, at level 1 with gnome ancestry, lvl2 with order explorer leaf.
What gnome ancestry element gives a focus pool or point? I had a look and couldn't find mention with a quick pdf search of either the character guide or crb.
Order explorer leaf can give a psuedo focus point with the familiar. But it does take an action and otherwise the character just has two focus points and one recharge option from the familiar. (Or one focus point if it were animal or wild).
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But Storm Druid already can, at level 1 with gnome ancestry, lvl2 with order explorer leaf.
What gnome ancestry element gives a focus pool or point? I had a look and couldn't find mention with a quick pdf search of either the character guide or crb.
Order explorer leaf can give a psuedo focus point with the familiar. But it does take an action...
For the Gnome, it is the feat animal accomplice which provide a familiar.
True, getting a focus point back do take 1 action, but it doesn't change the fact that a gnome Storm Druid can use tempest surge 3 times in a fight from level 1 (4 at level 5 for another action with energised font), and non gnome at level 2 with order Explorer Leaf.
It's just to counteract the argument that being able to use focus spells 3 times in a fight, once per day, at low level, would be unbalanced while it is already possible.
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Disagree with Gleeful's ruling. The special text tells you what you change on a repeat selection, but it doesn't mean the rest of the feat's text disappears. If the intent is to prevent you from getting additional focus points, it needs to be a lot more explicit about it.It says what happens when you take it a second time. Not what changes, literally in the "how to read feats" quote I shared earlier.
You, choose a different domain than the first, and gain a spell from it.What you gain is specified and impacted.
That doesn't work for the vast majority of Feats that you can take multiple times, so I don't think your overly strict reading is correct.
Special You can select this feat multiple times. Each time, choose a different skill and gain the benefits for that skill.
If that's the only text present when you take it the second time, what are the "benefits"?
Special You can select this feat multiple times. Each time, you learn additional languages.
How many additional languages?
Special You can select this feat multiple times. Each time, choose a different type of terrain.
Great, so I choose a terrain, of any kind apparently, what does that do for me? This has no benefit without the full wording of the Feat.
Special You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you do, you must choose a different type of muse other than that of your own.
Again, I choose a muse, and then what happens? Without the text of the Feat, this does nothing.
That doesn't work for the vast majority of Feats that you can take multiple times, so I don't think your overly strict reading is correct.
I was more meaning the special element tells you what of the feat it grants. Vs saying what it modifies.
So yes it still references the feat text, but it is about what is granted from the effect region when you take it.
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It is like if a feat gave you a cat familiar that vomitted a flavour of icecream you choose at selection; and in the special section the feat says you can choose a different flavour of icecream when you select the feat again in the future.
Do you gain two cats each with a different flavour, or one cat with two flavours. Or possibly even two cats with two flavours depending on how the initial text is written and punctuation is placed.
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The domain initiate grants two things
- a spell that is selected based on a domain choice.
- a focus pool of 1
The special text says
"You can select this feat multiple times, selecting a
different domain each time and gaining its domain spell."
Meaning you select a new domain beholden to the restrictions of your deity's list as witten in the feat. And obtain a new focus spell that is tied to said domain.
It is hard to say if it is a mistake as it is the only focus pool granting feat that can be taken multiple times, and the only one written this way with the focus rules written into it vs into the class features.
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However, to argue against myself a bit.
Order magic (druid 4) stops working if you read the special text the way I am saying it is read above.
Whether this is writer oversight or not in either direction is a matter for errata though. It isn't like there weren't other feats/features that didn't do anything because of how they were written originally. :)
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Let's look at the whole piece of text that the various sentence fragments are cited from;
The key here is what "different sources" are.FOCUS POINTS FROM MULTIPLE SOURCES
It’s possible, especially through archetypes, to gain focus spells and Focus Points from more than one source. If this happens, you have just one focus pool, adding all the Focus Points together to determine the total size of your pool. (Remember that the maximum number of Focus Points a pool can have is 3.) If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool. For instance, if you were a cleric with the Domain Initiate feat, you would have a pool with 1 Focus Point. Let’s say you then took the champion multiclass archetype and the Healing Touch feat. Normally, this feat would give you a focus pool. Since you already have one, it instead increases your existing pool’s capacity by 1.
Focus Points are not differentiated by source; you can spend any of your Focus Points on any of your focus spells. Likewise, when you Refocus, you get back a point as long as you follow the guidelines of any abilities that granted you focus spells. Having Focus Points from multiple sources doesn’t change the tradition of your spells; if you had both cleric domain spells and druid order spells, your domain spells would remain divine and the order spells primal. This could mean that you need to keep track of a different proficiency and ability modifier with the spell DC and spell attack roll of different focus spells.
Ascalaphus has the crux of the issue:
1) Is a "source" a Class Feat?
2) Is a "source" a Class or Archetype?
Having read this thread, I think I am changing my mind from #2 to #1. And mostly because the real Power in Focus Points is being able to replenish multiple of them at a time. Consider the 12th level Monk Feat Meditative Focus and 18th level Monk Feat Meditative Wellspring. These feats "weaponize" your 2-point and 3-point pools respectively, turning a few "daily" powers into "encounter" powers: A significant power boost.
And no, Herolab is not a rules source, even if a coding error works to your advantage!
So yes it still references the feat text, but it is about what is granted from the effect region when you take it.
That's my whole argument, really. The special sections says you get a second domain spell, and to fall into line with Aratorin's arguments. What is a domain spell?
Domain spells are a type of focus spell. It costs 1 Focus Point to cast a focus spell, and you start with a focus pool of 1 Focus Point.
So a Domain spell would grant you a Focus Pool. Since you've already got one from the first Domain Initiate the Sidebar from p.302 with the multiple sources applies and you increase your pool by one.
If that's the case it's hard to read Expanded Domain Iniate in way that wouldn't work like that as well, as it also just says that you gain the initial domain spell.Anyways I was just curious about some other opinions on that topic, as I found the feat a bit unclear as I was reading through Gods & Magic.
About the whole Herolab thing not being a rule source. Sure. But it's the closest thing we have to seeing live rules. It is heavily endorsed by Paizo, so it's not likely the guys from Lone Wolf Development just went on Archives of Nethys and plugged everything they could find in their software. There are teams on both sides working on it, trying to map the rules as good as possible. A question like mine, is just an e-mail away for the guys from Lone Wolf. In that regard they distinguish themselves from alternatives such as Pathbuilder or PCGen (if that's still at thing for 2E...), or just some random dude on the internet that just says I've read the rules really carefully; they all have no direct connection to Paizo. Sure there can be errors, I mean there are even errors in the CRB itself that get errata'd, but as I said, it's the closest thing we have to seeing applied rules.
So advantage or disadvantage, doesn't matter really. If a certain thing works differently in Herolab than it does in my head my hybris isn't big enough that I'm instantly thinking "that's a mistake".
Oh and if someone is interested. I tracked someone down that was willing to test my question in HeroLab :)
The answer there is: Second Domain Initiate gives an additional Foucs Point. Expanded Domain Initiate does not. Make of that what you want :)
/K
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To me you do not get a second focus point from taking Domain Initiate. Reading the entire entry
Domain Initiate
Your deity bestows a special spell related to their powers. Select one domain—a subject of particular interest to you within your religion—from your deity’s list. You gain an initial domain spell for that domain, a spell unique to the domain and not available to other clerics. Each domain’s theme and domain spells can be found here.Domain spells are a type of focus spell. It costs 1 Focus Point to cast a focus spell, and you start with a focus pool of 1 Focus Point. You refill your focus pool during your daily preparations, and you can regain 1 Focus Point by spending 10 minutes using the Refocus activity to pray to your deity or do service toward their causes.
Focus spells are automatically heightened to half your level rounded up. Focus spells don’t require spell slots, nor can you cast them using spell slots. Certain feats can give you more focus spells and increase the size of your focus pool, though your focus pool can never hold more than 3 Focus Points. The full rules for focus spells appear on page 300.
Special You can select this feat multiple times, selecting a different domain each time and gaining its domain spell.
In the Special disclaimer it says you can take this feat multiple times however only receiving the spell from the alternate domain selected. There is nothing about gaining an extra focus point.
In addition it says in the second paragraph that you start with a focus pool of 1, doesn't say add a focus point.
Look at Lingering Performance from the Bard feats.
Lingering Performance
Prerequisites maestro muse, focus pool
By adding a flourish, you make your compositions last longer. You learn the lingering composition focus spell. Increase the number of Focus Points in your focus pool by 1.
This specifically says increase your focus pool by 1. A non-archtyped cleric has very few opportunites to add to their focus pool.
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IMO the "multiple sources" thing comes from multiclassing. Eg. if a sorcerer multiclasses to cleric and picks up Domain Initiate, the sorc already has a focus pool, so the "you start with a focus pool of 1 Focus Point" no longer applies, triggers the multiple sources clause, and boosts the sorc's existing pool by 1.
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Yeah, some gods have an extra domain only accessible (generally speaking) by this.