Does Domain Initiate give another focus point if retaken?


Rules Discussion


On page 302, it says that if you take an ability that gives a focus pool, it gives an additional point. It does however, say a different source of the focus pool, but I'm not entirely understanding what "source" means.

If I take "Domain Initiate- City" and "Domain Initiate- travel" does that count as two sources or one? Moreover, I've seen some people say that every new focus spell gives a new focus point, although I don't see where this rule is in the CRB, So it may be a misconception.


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In the case of Domain Initiate City and Travel that would in fact meet the sidebar on Page 302's requirement of being two different abilities that provide a focus pool, and as such you would have a total focus pool of 2.

The sidebar leans heavily towards examples of Archetypes providing focus pools from their own talents, which is a bit misleading. But the relevant line is, "If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool."

They never make the distinction that this would not stack with focus pool granting abilities within the same class like your example or Ki Strike and Ki Rush for the monk.

As to every focus spell giving you a focus point, the majority of them do indicate that you gain an additional Focus Point. About the only class left in the dark is a Wild Shape Druid who doesn't really gain new spells typically but adds more utility to his Wild Shape and Morph as he gains feats.


ExOichoThrow wrote:
On page 302, it says that if you take an ability that gives a focus pool, it gives an additional point. It does however, say a different source of the focus pool, but I'm not entirely understanding what "source" means.

That sidebar designates that if you acquire focus points from a different source (namely Dedication feats), they stack.

ExOichoThrow wrote:
If I take "Domain Initiate- City" and "Domain Initiate- travel" does that count as two sources or one? Moreover, I've seen some people say that every new focus spell gives a new focus point, although I don't see where this rule is in the CRB, So it may be a misconception.

This counts as one source, since they're both Cleric feats.

On page 300, it introduces Focus.

"You automatically gain a focus pool of one Focus Point the first time you gain and ability that gives you a focus spell."

This just means that you can't somehow have a focus spell and not have a focus pool to fuel it.

"Some abilities allow you to increase the Focus Points in your pool by 1. Typically, these are feats that give you a new focus spell and increase the number of points in your pool by one."

This explains the main way we can get our second focus point. We've also already identified that we if get focus points from two different sources, it enables us to stack them.

However, it doesn't say that we automatically get a focus point EVERY time we gain a focus spell, just when we first get one.

Compare the Domain Initiate and the Advanced Domain feats. Domain Initiate doesn't state you get extra focus points. Advanced Domain, however, explicitly states "Increase the number of Focus Points in your focus pool by 1."

So no, you won't get a second focus point with Domain Initiate.


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TheGentlemanDM wrote:
ExOichoThrow wrote:
On page 302, it says that if you take an ability that gives a focus pool, it gives an additional point. It does however, say a different source of the focus pool, but I'm not entirely understanding what "source" means.

That sidebar designates that if you acquire focus points from a different source (namely Dedication feats), they stack.

ExOichoThrow wrote:
If I take "Domain Initiate- City" and "Domain Initiate- travel" does that count as two sources or one? Moreover, I've seen some people say that every new focus spell gives a new focus point, although I don't see where this rule is in the CRB, So it may be a misconception.

This counts as one source, since they're both Cleric feats.

On page 300, it introduces Focus.

"You automatically gain a focus pool of one Focus Point the first time you gain and ability that gives you a focus spell."

This just means that you can't somehow have a focus spell and not have a focus pool to fuel it.

"Some abilities allow you to increase the Focus Points in your pool by 1. Typically, these are feats that give you a new focus spell and increase the number of points in your pool by one."

This explains the main way we can get our second focus point. We've also already identified that we if get focus points from two different sources, it enables us to stack them.

However, it doesn't say that we automatically get a focus point EVERY time we gain a focus spell, just when we first get one.

Compare the Domain Initiate and the Advanced Domain feats. Domain Initiate doesn't state you get extra focus points. Advanced Domain, however, explicitly states "Increase the number of Focus Points in your focus pool by 1."

So no, you won't get a second focus point with Domain Initiate.

As I stated previously the sidebar never actually makes a distinction between dedication feat granted focus spells and multiple focus pool granting feats from the same class. In fact the very first line of the sidebar is, "It’s possible, especially through archetypes, to gain focus spells and Focus Points from more than one source."

This indicates that there are other ways to gain Focus Points from multiple sources.

Ki strike and Ki Rush are prime examples. They both grant you a focus pool. The relevant line in the sidebar is; "If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool." Full stop.

Nowhere in that sentence does it make a distinction between abilities from the same class and those from dedication feats.

As to whether Domain Initiate would stack, that is a bit muddier, but I will note to you that while they are the same feat they are granting two different domains and are two different instances of the same ability. Since they are not granting a metric that the game states don't stack and the feat can be taken multiple times there is no reason they would not both give you a focus point.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Upon reading Domain Initiate, my initial takeaway is that it doesn't actually give you Focus Points.

It says you start with a Focus Pool with 1 point, which is very different phrasing than other feats seem to use. I believe it to be referencing the general rule, rather than giving you a Focus Point from the feat itself. Ergo, I do not believe that taking the feat multiple times would net you more than 1 Focus Point.


When looking upon the cleric feats, I could be wrong but I don't see any way RAW to get 3 focus points for a cleric in the case that domain initiate doesn't give extra focus points when taken again.

Maybe I'm missing something but looking through the feats that appears to be the case. It makes it even stranger because there is a feat that make it so that you get 3 focus points back when you refocus instead of 1.


Ravingdork wrote:

Upon reading Domain Initiate, my initial takeaway is that it doesn't actually give you Focus Points.

It says you start with a Focus Pool with 1 point, which is very different phrasing than other feats seem to use. I believe it to be referencing the general rule, rather than giving you a Focus Point from the feat itself. Ergo, I do not believe that taking the feat multiple times would net you more than 1 Focus Point.

I'll have to disagree: "and you start with a focus pool of 1 Focus Point" is granting you a pool: you wouldn't have one without this feat after all so it's granting it to you. Add that to "If you have multiple abilities that give you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool" and it seems clear to me: each Domain Initiate grants you a pool so each would increase focus up to the cap. If this isn't the intent, the feat is super unintuitive by giving a pool that is somehow different than every other granted pool by not increasing the focus points like every other feat granted one.

ExOichoThrow wrote:
When looking upon the cleric feats, I could be wrong but I don't see any way RAW to get 3 focus points for a cleric in the case that domain initiate doesn't give extra focus points when taken again.

The sidebar on Page 302 says that you add a focus if an ability says 'add a focus point' or 'add/gain a pool' [as that's the same thing as adding focus when you don't start with any]. Domain Initiate says "and you start with a focus pool of 1 Focus Point" so using the sidebar tells you to add either a focus pool of 1 to your character of add a focus point if you already have a pool. Seems straight forward to me. I can't see a RAW reason NOT to add focus points for multiple instances of the feat.

Liberty's Edge

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Every ability that grants you a Focus Pool increases your Focus Pool by 1 until you've hit 3 points, it really is that simple.

It could have easily been worded better in many places but from every instance, I've looked at, despite the wording this is how it works, just as graystone noted, it's pretty straightfoward when you reference the sidebar.


ExOichoThrow wrote:

When looking upon the cleric feats, I could be wrong but I don't see any way RAW to get 3 focus points for a cleric in the case that domain initiate doesn't give extra focus points when taken again.

Maybe I'm missing something but looking through the feats that appears to be the case. It makes it even stranger because there is a feat that make it so that you get 3 focus points back when you refocus instead of 1.

Cleric can take Advanced Domain several times. So yeah to have 3 focus points as pure cleric one needs to have 2 Domain initiate feats and 2 Advanced domain feats.


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TheTheos wrote:
ExOichoThrow wrote:

When looking upon the cleric feats, I could be wrong but I don't see any way RAW to get 3 focus points for a cleric in the case that domain initiate doesn't give extra focus points when taken again.

Maybe I'm missing something but looking through the feats that appears to be the case. It makes it even stranger because there is a feat that make it so that you get 3 focus points back when you refocus instead of 1.

Cleric can take Advanced Domain several times. So yeah to have 3 focus points as pure cleric one needs to have 2 Domain initiate feats and 2 Advanced domain feats.

You would only need 1 advanced domain feat.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Two abilities that give you a focus Pool leaves you with a single focus pool. They do not stack.

It needs to say it gives you a focus point for your pool to increase. I'm just not seeing that in Domain Initiate.

beowulf99 wrote:
TheTheos wrote:
ExOichoThrow wrote:

When looking upon the cleric feats, I could be wrong but I don't see any way RAW to get 3 focus points for a cleric in the case that domain initiate doesn't give extra focus points when taken again.

Maybe I'm missing something but looking through the feats that appears to be the case. It makes it even stranger because there is a feat that make it so that you get 3 focus points back when you refocus instead of 1.

Cleric can take Advanced Domain several times. So yeah to have 3 focus points as pure cleric one needs to have 2 Domain initiate feats and 2 Advanced domain feats.
You would only need 1 advanced domain feat.

Respectfully, I disagree with that interpretation, beowolf99.


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Ravingdork wrote:

Two abilities that give you a focus Pool leaves you with a single focus pool. They do not stack.

It needs to say it gives you a focus point for your pool to increase. I'm just not seeing that in Domain Initiate.

beowulf99 wrote:
TheTheos wrote:
ExOichoThrow wrote:

When looking upon the cleric feats, I could be wrong but I don't see any way RAW to get 3 focus points for a cleric in the case that domain initiate doesn't give extra focus points when taken again.

Maybe I'm missing something but looking through the feats that appears to be the case. It makes it even stranger because there is a feat that make it so that you get 3 focus points back when you refocus instead of 1.

Cleric can take Advanced Domain several times. So yeah to have 3 focus points as pure cleric one needs to have 2 Domain initiate feats and 2 Advanced domain feats.
You would only need 1 advanced domain feat.
Respectfully, I disagree with that interpretation, beowolf99.

In regards to the focus pools not stacking, page 302 does in fact say that gettijng multiple abilities that give a focus pool will result in getting another focus point


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Ravingdork wrote:

Two abilities that give you a focus Pool leaves you with a single focus pool. They do not stack.

It needs to say it gives you a focus point for your pool to increase. I'm just not seeing that in Domain Initiate.

beowulf99 wrote:
TheTheos wrote:
ExOichoThrow wrote:

When looking upon the cleric feats, I could be wrong but I don't see any way RAW to get 3 focus points for a cleric in the case that domain initiate doesn't give extra focus points when taken again.

Maybe I'm missing something but looking through the feats that appears to be the case. It makes it even stranger because there is a feat that make it so that you get 3 focus points back when you refocus instead of 1.

Cleric can take Advanced Domain several times. So yeah to have 3 focus points as pure cleric one needs to have 2 Domain initiate feats and 2 Advanced domain feats.
You would only need 1 advanced domain feat.
Respectfully, I disagree with that interpretation, beowolf99.

Feel free, but you are directly arguing with the book.

CRB PG. 302 "Focus Points from Multiple Sources" wrote:

It’s possible, especially through archetypes, to gain focus

spells and Focus Points from more than one source. If this
happens, you have just one focus pool, adding all the Focus
Points together to determine the total size of your pool.
(Remember that the maximum number of Focus Points a
pool can have is 3.) If you have multiple abilities that give
you a focus pool, each one adds 1 Focus Point to your pool.
For instance, if you were a cleric with the Domain Initiate
feat, you would have a pool with 1 Focus Point. Let’s say
you then took the champion multiclass archetype and the
Healing Touch feat. Normally, this feat would give you a
focus pool. Since you already have one, it instead increases
your existing pool’s capacity by 1.
Focus Points are not differentiated by source; you
can spend any of your Focus Points on any of your
focus spells. Likewise, when you Refocus, you get
back a point as long as you follow the guidelines
of any abilities that granted you focus
spells. Having Focus Points from multiple
sources doesn’t change the tradition of
your spells; if you had both cleric domain
spells and druid order spells, your domain spells
would remain divine and the order spells primal. This
could mean that you need to keep track of a different
proficiency and ability modifier with the spell DC and spell
attack roll of different focus spells.

Figured at this point someone should just post the entire sidebar.

Note that the first example is Domain Initiate stacking with Healing Touch. If Domain Initiate's focus point stacks with any other ability, then 2 separate instances of Domain Initiate would grant you 2 focus points. Full stop.

The sidebar gives 0 craps where those focus points come from. It never states that abilities from the same class "don't count" and it certainly never states that abilities like Domain Initiate "don't count".

Another point, let's assume you are somehow correct despite directly disagreeing with the words in the book. Why is it ok for Advanced Domain to stack if it is not ok for Domain Initiate to stack? One says you get a focus pool. One says you gain a Focus Point.

What is the material difference? The sidebar tells us there is no real difference.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Thank you for the citation.

Clearly, I was mistaken.

I'm still left to wonder though if multiple Domain Initiate feats are considered a single source, or multiple sources.


Ravingdork wrote:

Thank you for the citation.

Clearly, I was mistaken.

I'm still left to wonder though if multiple Domain Initiate feats are considered a single source, or multiple sources.

I am also puzzled by that, it's the main source of my confusion on this topic.


From my understanding entire class is considered a single source. So for cleric class feat to increase focus point pool it needs to state so explicitly. While archetypes (and things published in the future) are separate sources.


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The book never makes that distinction. I read "source" as the ability that granted you a Focus Pool. My justification for this: you can be a monk and never have a Ki ability. The real "source" of your Ki pool in that instance is the feat that grants you it, so Ki Strike or Ki Rush.

The closest we get to a definition of "source" is in "Focus Spells" on page 300: "Focus spells are a special type of spell attained directly from a branch of study, from a deity, or from another specific source."

This is just vague enough that you could interpret that to be the Archetype or class that grants you the feat that grants you the focus pool.

But no dedication feat I can think of directly grants you a focus pool, you have to take an archetype feat for that typically. So what is the "specific source" in that instance? I argue that would be the feat you directly gained the focus point or pool from.


beowulf99 wrote:
But no dedication feat I can think of directly grants you a focus pool, you have to take an archetype feat for that typically. So what is the "specific source" in that instance? I argue that would be the feat you directly gained the focus point or pool from.

Ye, sorry worded in a bad way. Archetypes grant access to another class features. And that another class is a new source.


TheTheos wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
But no dedication feat I can think of directly grants you a focus pool, you have to take an archetype feat for that typically. So what is the "specific source" in that instance? I argue that would be the feat you directly gained the focus point or pool from.
Ye, sorry worded in a bad way. Archetypes grant access to another class features. And that another class is a new source.

In that case you can argue that class is it's own source instead of a particular class... [as in feats like class, general, ancestry, ect] That's the issue with picking out a source without explicit being told so. NOTHING in the sidebar suggests a limitation on focus gain based on class and nothing suggests that a feat called out as having subcategories are the same feat for stacking. IMO, you aren't allowed to pick the same feat unless being specifically allowed and if they are different enough for that they are different enough for the pools adding.

As to Domain Initiate, I see it the same as Lore: each is it's own "specific subcategory" where "Each subcategory counts as its own skill" or in this case feat.


If two copies of the same feat count as different sources, when would anything count as the same source? The whole concept of sources would have no meaning or use.


whew wrote:
If two copies of the same feat count as different sources, when would anything count as the same source? The whole concept of sources would have no meaning or use.

Source comes up VERY rarely in the game. Temp hp/immunity is about it. There aren't even basic stacking rules as bonuses almost always have a type and you only use the highest of each type.

Can anyone show any rules on sources that apply here? Is there anything saying that same source items don't stack? I don't know of any. So my question whew would be, 'DOES source have any meaning here?' as I don't see any.


I'm also unsure on what defines a source, it's obvious that a monk can easily get 2 Focus pretty fast, but still not 100% on Cleric


If Domain Initiate taken a second time does not give a second focus point, then clerics would never get a third focus point for their pool unless they multiclass. Why would the cleric class be singled out as the only one with only 2 total points?


Astrael wrote:
If Domain Initiate taken a second time does not give a second focus point, then clerics would never get a third focus point for their pool unless they multiclass. Why would the cleric class be singled out as the only one with only 2 total points?

Though I am in the double the class feature, double the focus point camp this is not correct. Even if the rules are lawyered in their most restrictive form a cleric can always go to 3 focus points by simply taking Domain Initiate and Advanced Domain twice. Advance Domain wording is clear.

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