Something I've been curious about; at what stage in the game does the cap of 10 invested items start to matter?
So far in my games, it's been completely inconsequential. This is still early play though (the highest level I've played a longer form game at is currently 5), so that seems reasonable. Has anyone else gotten to a point where investment really starts to constrict what items you can use?
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Something I've been curious about; at what stage in the game does the cap of 10 invested items start to matter?
So far in my games, it's been completely inconsequential. This is still early play though (the highest level I've played a longer form game at is currently 5), so that seems reasonable. Has anyone else gotten to a point where investment really starts to constrict what items you can use?
It matters in every thread where one part of the community is arguing that you can not keep your skills on par with the challenges you will face and the other part of the community is claiming that you will of course, 100% and always have a multitude of skill enhancing items at your disposal.
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It matters where the community is arguing
You’d think people could keep their pet issues to their relevant threads...
I’m sure investment has an impact on skill usage. I’m asking how much, and when that impact starts to come into play. If you have play experience of this happening I’m very interested to hear it.
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It matters in every thread where one part of the community is arguing that you can not keep your skills on par with the challenges you will face and the other part of the community is claiming that you will of course, 100% and always have a multitude of skill enhancing items at your disposal.Something I've been curious about; at what stage in the game does the cap of 10 invested items start to matter?
So far in my games, it's been completely inconsequential. This is still early play though (the highest level I've played a longer form game at is currently 5), so that seems reasonable. Has anyone else gotten to a point where investment really starts to constrict what items you can use?
You aren't wrong, really.
Investment comes up once enough items become 'cheap' and you start picking and choosing which skills and abilities to keep relevant in addition to your main ones.
There remain a ton of magic items that retain their usefulness way after their stated level.
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Starts mattering at higher levels I think, you need
1 investment for weapon
1 investment for armour
1 investment for each of your three skills (six if you're a rogue)
1 investment for perception
1 investment for apex (if the apex isn't also a skill item)
Doesn't leave much left for whatever other random stuff you might happen to want.
Probably around 8 where you have enough wealth to begin the lower level items easy.
Looking at my lvl 10 Ranger player sheet here he basically have all of them invested.
And you can always fill invested slots later with energy resistance rings as well
And weapons are not invested.
@Exocist
So that's about 4-6* items (depending if your Apex item is a relevant skill item, and how much you want to invest into your skills) as a base at level 17 when you get Apex items. At that point it seems the investment limit has become a significant factor (though this is still slightly speculative, I haven't played at those levels). Does this mean feats like incredible investiture becomes a useful tool for any charisma character to pick up at that stage of the game?
*Kyrone reminded me weapons are not invested.
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@Exocist
So that's about 5-7 items (depending if your Apex item is a relevant skill item, and how much you want to invest into your skills) as a base at level 17 when you get Apex items. At that point it seems the investment limit has become a significant factor (though this is still slightly speculative, I haven't played at those levels). Does this mean feats like incredible investiture becomes a useful tool for any charisma character to pick up at that stage of the game?
If you take out the Apex it's still like 5 items at level 9 (+1/2 item to the two skills you have at master, +1/2 perception, +1 resilient armour, +1 striking weapon) that you either should have or are so cheap that there's no reason not to have.
It then becomes a case of how much other stuff you really want to determine if incredible investiture is worth it. There's certainly quite a few good low level worn items.
Golden Legion Epaulet (uncommon but a decent item), Boots of Elvenkind for Stealth characters not invested in Acrobatics already (as it is a skill item for Acro), Ring of Energy Resistance, Ring of Wizardry (though this is also a skill item for Arcana), Doubling Rings (you might have them if you are a dual wielder), Bracers of Missile Deflection (not bad for the cost) to name a few.
I'd expect rogues/investigators to be wanting it far more than other classes though, because they probably want to buy a lot of skill items.
In theory the investment maximum matters.
But I played in a campaign up to 11th level and still didn't have 10 magic items (that required investment).
Since weapons don't require investment, it's basically just a question of what other (optional) stuff do you have.
Boots of Elvenkind
Cloak of Elvenkind
Doubling Rings
Goggles of Night
Hat of Disguise/Magi (invest in both but can wear only one)
Messenger Ring
My Monk is at 11th level right now and I'm at 9 invested items. It certainly fills up fast if you have several utility items. For example, I have an Tourmaline Sphere Aeon Stone (grant's Heal 1st level and prevents death once), Healer's Glove (1-Action 2d6+7 heal already paid itself off a few times) and Eyes of the Eagle (actually helpful when our party only has members without darkvision).
I think this limit will matter only if you're interested in buying or keeping utility items that don't directly relate with your playstyle. For example, both healing items my monk has already saved our party several times from losing because it prevented the tide of battle from changing (one character falls, then others go soon after). Cloak and Boots of Elven Kind also are a great combo, even if your character isn't particularly inclined to scout.
Ring of Elemental Resistance are the kind of items you want for all 5 elements.
In my opinion, it only comes into play if you have a crafter in the party and lots of downtime. Or in PFS where you can buy whatever you want. And, of course, at very high level of play.
Investment limit matters more or less depending on the campaign and personal preference. I've been in high wealth games where it would matter around level 7, since you'd have the cash to buy all kinds of little low level things just because you could.
There's also games where players are more cutthroat with each other, and some hoard items. That can mean the limit will kick in earlier for one person than another.
Some players might like to fill out their slots rather than save up for the next big ticket item, so they might run into the limit earlier.
I would say, in general, it *really* only matters at level 20, when you've reached your peak personal power and the only way to go up is to optimize your load-out. That's not to say you won't hit the limit earlier, but the limit isn't likely to make a huge difference.
I think for our Age of Ashes campaign, it started being an issue for one or two PCs at around 12th level. By 16th or 17th level, all the PCs are feeling the constraint.
If the constraint weren't there, the additional items they'd get would be boosts to additional skills. Not really sure that would impact the game badly, to be honest, especially as PCs are allowed as many weapons and wands as they can afford.
Very little imo, they made the limit too high. I would have personally liked it tied to charisma modifier and maybe have it be 5+charisma mod with the feat doubling the charisma mod.
But yeah, you really have to try to max out your slots.
Very little imo, they made the limit too high. I would have personally liked it tied to charisma modifier and maybe have it be 5+charisma mod with the feat doubling the charisma mod.
Part of why I asked is that I'm experimenting with a Cha-investment houserule actually. I'm not sure if 7+MOD or 5+MOD is the way to go right now - 5 is a very nice base number but seems like it'd be too constricting based on the replies to the topic.
Very little imo, they made the limit too high. I would have personally liked it tied to charisma modifier and maybe have it be 5+charisma mod with the feat doubling the charisma mod.
But yeah, you really have to try to max out your slots.
This was the case during the playtest. It was called "Resonance" and it was the first mechanic to be completely scrapped. The reports said it was awful, but not only because of the magical items cap, it did other s~~@ty things too. You can also blame it for the Alchemist release state, it was intrinsically tied to it and once it was scrapped, the class went through the major overhaul and landed on what it is today, with some good aspects but janky as well and very underpowered.
I don't think Alchemist is actually underpowered (though it is most definitely janky, and stands out as being the class with the most pitfalls). But that's a topic for another thread.
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This was the case during the playtest. It was called "Resonance" and it was the first mechanic to be completely scrapped. The reports said it was awful, but not only because of the magical items cap, it did other s*#~ty things too. You can also blame it for the Alchemist release state, it was intrinsically tied to it and once it was scrapped, the class went through the major overhaul and landed on what it is today, with some good aspects but janky as well and very underpowered.Very little imo, they made the limit too high. I would have personally liked it tied to charisma modifier and maybe have it be 5+charisma mod with the feat doubling the charisma mod.
But yeah, you really have to try to max out your slots.
Let’s not slander that idea completely on the basis of resonance. Resonance was awful because it made you double pay for stuff. Not only did staves, Wanda and other consumables have a use limit, but they also needed resonance. Investing with resonance wasn’t bad, when when you factored in consumables were for some reason eating resonance and gold... was a head scratch.
They should have replaced the uses with “expend X resonance”, not charges and resonance.
Honestly not a fan of the mechanic at all. As pointed out, it's pretty much a nonissue for most characters in most games at most level brackets.
But for a handful of characters who want to be good at a ton of skills or something else like that, it's kind of frustrating and 16 Cha isn't always a reasonable investment.
In general it's the sort of rule I particularly dislike because it comes up so infrequently on its own that I think a lot of people are just going to forget it exists long term.
For me, it's a balance rule so players who know all the magic items by heart have an advantage but not an incredible one. You can no more make Christmas tree characters in PF2. Most normal players won't feel the limit much before high levels, which is also certainly intended.
In general it's the sort of rule I particularly dislike because it comes up so infrequently on its own that I think a lot of people are just going to forget it exists long term.
In general, I strongly agree with this particular sentiment.
12 levels into a campaign, asking the question "Everyone remembered to make sure they're under the limit on invested items, right?" Resulted in 75% confused silence.
No one had actually exceeded the limit when I raised the question, but no one remembered it was really a thing because the last time it came up was around when they were getting their first non weapon/ armor magic items.
Playing on VTT has made bulk pretty easy to remember and play for my group at least.
On remembering investment, I feel the same way. I doubt any of my players are even aware it’s a thing since I’ve only mentioned it in passing like once or twice. However, I feel like it’s not too hard to remember when you actually get to those levels.
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It's a high-level thing, but I also think it's just a precaution for edge cases. PF1 had a fair amount of advice like, "Buy four Quick Runner's Shirts and swap them out after combat". It's a general catch-all rule that means that even when they eventually release an item that's a little too cheap for what it does, there won't be as much impact.
Very little imo, they made the limit too high. I would have personally liked it tied to charisma modifier and maybe have it be 5+charisma mod with the feat doubling the charisma mod.Part of why I asked is that I'm experimenting with a Cha-investment houserule actually. I'm not sure if 7+MOD or 5+MOD is the way to go right now - 5 is a very nice base number but seems like it'd be too constricting based on the replies to the topic.
Being restricive is why I would go with 5+, gives charisma a good passive boon
Str: encumberance
Dex: AC and reflex
Con: HP and fort
Int: skills
Wis: Perception/int and Will
Cha:
I like restrictions though, I believe it breeds creativity and wish they hadn't fully scrapped resonance. It had a lot of faults (drinking potions) but it wasn't all bad.
I still think PF2e could have done with a longer playtest with pdfs more in line with the dnd next playtests. 6 months and minimal changes during was a bit tight given the changes they made afterwards imo.
But budgets are budgets and the game is still solid.
I may do this as a house rule: 5 + Cha mod, and increase it by 1 when your ability scores go up.
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I may do this as a house rule: 5 + Cha mod, and increase it by 1 when your ability scores go up.
This really screws over Rogues and any other skill based characters without Charisma, while not mattering for most others.
I don't think it's a good solution at all for the problem of Charisma lacking options.
I may do this as a house rule: 5 + Cha mod, and increase it by 1 when your ability scores go up.This really screws over Rogues and any other skill based characters without Charisma, while not mattering for most others.
I don't think it's a good solution at all for the problem of Charisma lacking options.
Well, it certainly screws over all low Charisma chars as all those chars will have a minimum of skills in addition to the more mundane needs like armor and apex items. For example, a Charisma 8 dwarven fighter would have a hard time with only being allowed 4 items.
5 items as a base is probably too low, yeah, but I like the fact that having 8 Charisma would bring an actual penalty. As things are now, it's virtually the same if you have 8 or 12-14, as you are not going to use Cha-based skills anyway.
And raising the limit together with ability scores is the simplest thing I can think to make it scale a bit with level without building a completely independent progression.