It is worse for the Wizard when they are supposedly the "master of magic", or "caster worh most spell slots".
But all other casters are casting more magic, more often, and without having to wait 8 hours to get it back. All with better interactions with their spells.
It was true that more spells was important in previous editions when spells scalled with caster level and low level spells were strong. But in PF2 more casting is not enough to make a class work. You need something besides more spells otherwise the class ends up boring.
And if you look all the arguments for "Wizards are fine" involve multiclassing meaning you are not taking Wizard feats. Or are super late game, at which point most people will never be able to see it; Much less justify spending 20 levels being mediocre at everything.
"But in PF2 more casting is not enough to make a class work."
I don't think this is an agreed upon view. Spells may not be as powerful as PF1e, but they are still strong, just now balanced against martials. Having more resources is a powerful advantage (see Divine Font).
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No offense intended, though it'll probably be taken, but these statements tells me that you're playing a very different game than I am (and maybe many others here) and pretty much explains why you're seeing vastly different results for a wizard than others. Knowledge of weaknesses, resistances, and even the specific abilities to watch out for is important especially with how creature design is in 2E vs. 1E. I'm practically begging some of the casters to make those recall knowledge checks against unique opponents. If your players don't seem to need that maybe you aren't challenging them enough or you are and you're just going to have to live with the fact that you and your group are just *so good* at PF2 that your experience is going to differ from most regular folks like us.Those 1 action cantrips are proving to be pretty cool and entertaining in the current campaign I'm running. My player is starting to make the witch shine in a way the wizard can't, unless of course he's recalling knowledge instead of hexing or something.
I still can't believe how many people are touting Recall Knowledge. It rarely comes up in my campaigns except for casters needing it to tell weak saves or energy resistances, mainly the wizard.
Most martials are killing the monster without caring if anyone uses recall knowledge. If they could talk, they'd be looking at the wizard saying, "Silver works best? And it's immune to fire? Good to know", as they're wiping the blood of the creature off their weapon. "Seems to die to repeated axe blows while raging as well. Add that to your mental tome."
Let me add some nuance because the reason recall knowledge hasn't been used much out of three campaigns is one has a Giant Instinct Barbarian and the other a Power Attack fighter.
I'll be honest with you, punching through DR is mainly a 2-hander fighter and barbarian thing. Not an every class thing. Rogue flanking can usually punch through as well.
Two-weapon ranger or fighter makes DR tough. Even if the wizard or whoever makes that recall knowledge check, it usually doesn't help as you have to bring along things like silversheen or special metal weapons to punch through the DR. It's smarter for a martial to bring along some special metal weapons always and be ready for it.
It gets easier as you get better striking weapons. DR can be a huge pain at lower level and even a pain for non-heavy weapon using martials. At least with a good striking weapon you can do some damage.
But for a 2-handed weapon barbarian or fighter, physical resistance is like a speed bump. You'll notice it, but you're driving a mack truck for damage and eventually the thing you're hitting will feel it more.
Recall Knowledge has been helpful for casters. Not as helpful for martials because they either have the special material they need to punch through or they don't. If they don't, they're screwed.
So not sure what your class composition is, but if you lack a Power Attack Fighter or a Two-hander barbarian, you probably are crying for casters to use Recall Knowledge. I'm not sure you'll care about the answer if you don't carry weapons with special materials with you.
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No offense intended, though it'll probably be taken, but these statements tells me that you're playing a very different game than I am (and maybe many others here) and pretty much explains why you're seeing vastly different results for a wizard than others. Knowledge of weaknesses, resistances, and even the specific abilities to watch out for is important especially with how creature design is in 2E vs. 1E. I'm practically begging some of the casters to make those recall knowledge checks against unique opponents. If your players don't seem to need that maybe you aren't challenging them enough or you are and you're just going to have to live with the fact that you and your group are just *so good* at PF2 that your experience is going to differ from most regular folks like us.
Recently had an encounter I was playing in that would've gone SO much better if the wizard had bothered to make a recall knowledge check to glean the weakness of the enemy. Electricity damage would do extra, but instead of doing that the wizard just spammed telekinetic projectile and shield while 2 people went down and my monk was at 3 hp.
Only level 2, and we still had fun, but dang. I wanted to strangle that caster at the time.
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No offense intended, though it'll probably be taken, but these statements tells me that you're playing a very different game than I am (and maybe many others here) and pretty much explains why you're seeing vastly different results for a wizard than others. Knowledge of weaknesses, resistances, and even the specific abilities to watch out for is important especially with how creature design is in 2E vs. 1E. I'm practically begging some of the casters to make those recall knowledge checks against unique opponents. If your players don't seem to need that maybe you aren't challenging them enough or you are and you're just going to have to live with the fact that you and your group are just *so good* at PF2 that your experience is going to differ from most regular folks like us.Recently had an encounter I was playing in that would've gone SO much better if the wizard had bothered to make a recall knowledge check to glean the weakness of the enemy. Electricity damage would do extra, but instead of doing that the wizard just spammed telekinetic projectile and shield while 2 people went down and my monk was at 3 hp.
Only level 2, and we still had fun, but dang. I wanted to strangle that caster at the time.
maybe he doesn't envision his character as a portable bestiary and i wouldn't blame him
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maybe he doesn't envision his character as a portable bestiary and i wouldn't blame him
Recently had an encounter I was playing in that would've gone SO much better if the wizard had bothered to make a recall knowledge check to glean the weakness of the enemy. Electricity damage would do extra, but instead of doing that the wizard just spammed telekinetic projectile and shield while 2 people went down and my monk was at 3 hp.
Only level 2, and we still had fun, but dang. I wanted to strangle that caster at the time.
That'd make sense if he wasn't constantly spouting off about being "the smart one" of the group.
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That'd make sense if he wasn't constantly spouting off about being "the smart one" of the group.maybe he doesn't envision his character as a portable bestiary and i wouldn't blame him
Recently had an encounter I was playing in that would've gone SO much better if the wizard had bothered to make a recall knowledge check to glean the weakness of the enemy. Electricity damage would do extra, but instead of doing that the wizard just spammed telekinetic projectile and shield while 2 people went down and my monk was at 3 hp.
Only level 2, and we still had fun, but dang. I wanted to strangle that caster at the time.
well you can be smart without knowing a lot of trivia for instance a dude that is smart enough to build a nuke might not know anything about how make deodorant if he wanted he could easily find out but he just doesn't care enough to bother looking for it
I am not disvalueing Recall Knowledge. I Just dont see Wizards being better than anyone else. More int helps a bit but Investigator often has the same Int. Meanwhile, Bard and Investigator have more feat support. And Rogue has more skill increases and potentially the same Int.
Event Witch has the same ability to Recall Knowledge as a Wizard.
In otherwords, there is no reason to see that as a Wizard thing when other classes simply do it better. Without having to multiclass or use archetypes.
Wizards are better than most casters outside of Witches. I wouldn't really include Rogues and Investigators in this as they are martial characters and lack spells. They get a ton of skills as compensation for lacking spell utility. Bards if built right can try to compete but its still difficult as they are a Charisma focused class, and with the importance of Dex/Con/Wis in this edition, they will be hard pressed to have a super high Int without some defensive sacrifices.
A Wizard doesn't need to build right or worry about sacrificing defense, as they come out of the box as good with knowledge skills. They (like Witches) have high Int so they can take advantage of Arcana, Occultism, Society, Crafting, and any lore skills (my Wizard has 3 lore skills at 2nd level). Since Wisdom is a godly stat in this edition, most Wizards probably have a decent enough Wisdom to even cover Religion or Nature if they want to focus on those skills.
As an Int based class, Wizards are just naturally good at recalling knowledge, making it a nice option for a third action. So Recall Knowledge along with 3-action spells, metamagic, and focus spells give Wizards some nice possible third actions.
Edit: Forgot to mention certain cantrips as nice 3rd actions too like Shield
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maybe he doesn't envision his character as a portable bestiary and i wouldn't blame him
No offense intended, though it'll probably be taken, but these statements tells me that you're playing a very different game than I am (and maybe many others here) and pretty much explains why you're seeing vastly different results for a wizard than others. Knowledge of weaknesses, resistances, and even the specific abilities to watch out for is important especially with how creature design is in 2E vs. 1E. I'm practically begging some of the casters to make those recall knowledge checks against unique opponents. If your players don't seem to need that maybe you aren't challenging them enough or you are and you're just going to have to live with the fact that you and your group are just *so good* at PF2 that your experience is going to differ from most regular folks like us.Recently had an encounter I was playing in that would've gone SO much better if the wizard had bothered to make a recall knowledge check to glean the weakness of the enemy. Electricity damage would do extra, but instead of doing that the wizard just spammed telekinetic projectile and shield while 2 people went down and my monk was at 3 hp.
Only level 2, and we still had fun, but dang. I wanted to strangle that caster at the time.
The real thing here is that Recall Knowledge is not wizard specific. Most of the stuff we've needed to recall knowledge against is planar creatures. So the cleric in one group does a great job with that since Religion is Wisdom based.
We have a witch in the other group with Arcana and Occultism. She does fine with those skills. She has had to use recall knowledge for a few Aberrations which is Occultism.
Our cleric is a muliticlass wizard, so he has Arcana as well. He recalls knowledge on Golems. So does the bard who has a high level of crafting.
So any class can recall knowledge. That's why making it seem like the wizard has some huge advantage doing this is pretty strange.
So this weird idea that the wizard is vastly superior at recall knowledge is an odd idea. I'm pretty sure most experienced players have seen other classes use Recall Knowledge when it is needed or helpful. Please don't start believing the wizard id some recall knowledge machine as almost every class has one or two skills that allow them to recall knowledge.
Any class can Recall Knowledge. The other day our Ranger made a religion check to recall some knowledge we needed.
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So not sure what your class composition is, but if you lack a Power Attack Fighter or a Two-hander barbarian, you probably are crying for casters to use Recall Knowledge. I'm not sure you'll care about the answer if you don't carry weapons with special materials with you.That's the fun part, I don't know the class composition either. I've been playing mostly society lately due to pandemic and you never really know what you're going to get on the table. I usually run one-hand and shield, but I do carry silver, cold iron, bludgeoning, piercing, slashing, good, and electric damage options and I'm maxed on striking runes.
None of this changes the the fact that you can still go up against opponents who don't just have immunities and resistances, but extra fun things like powerful reactions or abilities which are possible to work around -- if you know they exist. The GM's I've been running with have been usually pretty good about pinpointing the piece of information the team really oughta know vs. "what's the easiest way to damage this."
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Ah. I see why you experience the game differently. My group been together a long time.
We usually find out about reactions the hard way. Recall Knowledge doesn't give you every bit of info, but can be helpful. It's mostly assisted us against creature resistances. As a DM i usually give them some weaknesses if they succeed and more info on a critical success.
Sword and board is pretty weak damage, but if you're a defender type you probably help in other ways. Champion is sword and board and they are super helpful keeping creatures occupied and taking hits.
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I am not disvalueing Recall Knowledge. I Just dont see Wizards being better than anyone else. More int helps a bit but Investigator often has the same Int. Meanwhile, Bard and Investigator have more feat support. And Rogue has more skill increases and potentially the same Int.
Event Witch has the same ability to Recall Knowledge as a Wizard.
In otherwords, there is no reason to see that as a Wizard thing when other classes simply do it better. Without having to multiclass or use archetypes.
Wizards are better than most casters outside of Witches. I wouldn't really include Rogues and Investigators in this as they are martial characters and lack spells. They get a ton of skills as compensation for lacking spell utility. Bards if built right can try to compete but its still difficult as they are a Charisma focused class, and with the importance of Dex/Con/Wis in this edition, they will be hard pressed to have a super high Int without some defensive sacrifices.
A Wizard doesn't need to build right or worry about sacrificing defense, as they come out of the box as good with knowledge skills. They (like Witches) have high Int so they can take advantage of Arcana, Occultism, Society, Crafting, and any lore skills (my Wizard has 3 lore skills at 2nd level). Since Wisdom is a godly stat in this edition, most Wizards probably have a decent enough Wisdom to even cover Religion or Nature if they want to focus on those skills.
As an Int based class, Wizards are just naturally good at recalling knowledge, making it a nice option for a third action. So Recall Knowledge along with 3-action spells, metamagic, and focus spells give Wizards some nice possible third actions.
Edit: Forgot to mention certain cantrips as nice 3rd actions too like Shield
Occult, Divine, and Arcane get the shield cantrip. Occult gets true Strike
Occultism (Int): creatures of occult significance (like aberrations, spirits, and oozes)
Religion (Wis): and creatures of religious significance (like celestials, fiends, and undead)
Nature (Wis): like animals, beasts, fey, and plants
Arcana (Int): arcane significance (like dragons and beasts)
Looks like two best to have with the most problems we've faced is Occultism and Religion. Cleric is very good at recalling knowledge about fiends and undead. Wizard would shine on occultism.
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At the end of all this, it seems like the wizard is intended to mutliclass to find his interesting action options. That's what I intend to do the next time I make a wizard.
I'm going to look at them as generic arcane caster with lots of slots like the cleric is the generic divine caster with lots of healing. Then find some interesting ways to build a wizard using additional options that allow me to do something when my spells fail, which is pretty often at low level.
I'm definitely not against Incap spells now. My Giant barbarian got killed due to an incap spell. Blindness is a game over spell if it lands and no one can remove it. As a DM I would hate to see players landing blindness for even a round on my BBEGs. It would ruin the fight like it turned my barbarian from a raging damage machine into a pounded into the wall pile of dead flesh.
I am not disvalueing Recall Knowledge. I Just dont see Wizards being better than anyone else. More int helps a bit but Investigator often has the same Int. Meanwhile, Bard and Investigator have more feat support. And Rogue has more skill increases and potentially the same Int.
Event Witch has the same ability to Recall Knowledge as a Wizard.
In otherwords, there is no reason to see that as a Wizard thing when other classes simply do it better. Without having to multiclass or use archetypes.
Wizards are better than most casters outside of Witches. I wouldn't really include Rogues and Investigators in this as they are martial characters and lack spells. They get a ton of skills as compensation for lacking spell utility. Bards if built right can try to compete but its still difficult as they are a Charisma focused class, and with the importance of Dex/Con/Wis in this edition, they will be hard pressed to have a super high Int without some defensive sacrifices.
A Wizard doesn't need to build right or worry about sacrificing defense, as they come out of the box as good with knowledge skills. They (like Witches) have high Int so they can take advantage of Arcana, Occultism, Society, Crafting, and any lore skills (my Wizard has 3 lore skills at 2nd level). Since Wisdom is a godly stat in this edition, most Wizards probably have a decent enough Wisdom to even cover Religion or Nature if they want to focus on those skills.
As an Int based class, Wizards are just naturally good at recalling knowledge, making it a nice option for a third action. So Recall Knowledge along with 3-action spells, metamagic, and focus spells give Wizards some nice possible third actions.
Edit: Forgot to mention certain cantrips as nice 3rd actions too like Shield
Occult, Divine, and Arcane get the shield cantrip. Occult gets true Strike
Occultism (Int): creatures of occult significance (like aberrations, spirits, and oozes)
Religion (Wis):...
Wizards get True strike too or maybe I'm missing what you meant
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At the end of all this, it seems like the wizard is intended to mutliclass to find his interesting action options. That's what I intend to do the next time I make a wizard.
I'm going to look at them as generic arcane caster with lots of slots like the cleric is the generic divine caster with lots of healing. Then find some interesting ways to build a wizard using additional options that allow me to do something when my spells fail, which is pretty often at low level.
I'm definitely not against Incap spells now. My Giant barbarian got killed due to an incap spell. Blindness is a game over spell if it lands and no one can remove it. As a DM I would hate to see players landing blindness for even a round on my BBEGs. It would ruin the fight like it turned my barbarian from a raging damage machine into a pounded into the wall pile of dead flesh.
The illusionist in particular has plenty of feat support and will struggle to find spare feat levels to spend on multiclassing. I am also starting to think the Evoker will struggle to get all the good feats, even if they only MC to sorcerer to get Dangerous sorcery, unless they take natural ambition to get widen spell.
it's like saying that the good thing about being blind is that you don't have to worry about losing your sight in the dark
A Wizard doesn't need to build right or worry about sacrificing defense
I don't really see your point. I'm not saying only Wizards can recall knowledge. They're just better out of the gate at it than most casters thanks to being Int based. The same is true with Witches too. Bards need a specific build to be decent at this task and even then, they face disadvantages (lower Int).
This whole discussion about Recall Knowledge isn't about it being an exclusive feature to Wizards. Its that Wizards are well suited for it and its a reliable third action for them. One of the criticisms leveled against Wizards is their lack of 3rd actions, but they do have several options such as Recall Knowledge (which they are good at), Focus Spells, certain spells/cantrips, metamagic, etc.
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The illusionist in particular has plenty of feat support and will struggle to find spare feat levels to spend on multiclassing. I am also starting to think the Evoker will struggle to get all the good feats, even if they only MC to sorcerer to get Dangerous sorcery, unless they take natural ambition to get widen spell.At the end of all this, it seems like the wizard is intended to mutliclass to find his interesting action options. That's what I intend to do the next time I make a wizard.
I'm going to look at them as generic arcane caster with lots of slots like the cleric is the generic divine caster with lots of healing. Then find some interesting ways to build a wizard using additional options that allow me to do something when my spells fail, which is pretty often at low level.
I'm definitely not against Incap spells now. My Giant barbarian got killed due to an incap spell. Blindness is a game over spell if it lands and no one can remove it. As a DM I would hate to see players landing blindness for even a round on my BBEGs. It would ruin the fight like it turned my barbarian from a raging damage machine into a pounded into the wall pile of dead flesh.
I'm only multiclassing with my Evoker because my DM is letting us use the free archetype rule. Otherwise its hard to justify leaving the class. I want Widen Spell, Spell Pen, Overwhelming Energy, the advanced focus spell, Quicken Spell, Forcible Energy, and those are just the pre-14th level feats that I like as an evoker. Originally I was debating being an illusionist but thats also feat heavy too (Conceal/Silent Spell and Convincing Illusion)
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While I like the theory of conceal spell, I cannot fathom it working with consistency due to it requiring two separate skill checks against perception dcs (which are decent at worst on npcs). The skill checks use dex and cha while the classes that get access to conceal spell are int casters.
Essentially, you roll twice and take the lower using skills which you cannot maintain being the best at.
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People keep trying to argue for recall knowledge for a class specific third action when it's a universal again makes me head itch
Get past it please.
Wizards just cast spells. Wich means at low level they are boring and easily killed as they have no class feature or other resource to work.
At higher levels it can be good.
For me. Wizard feats are unhelpful enough if I really want to be a master of spells I just take a caster dedication and spell blending thesis and consume my dedication slots into more wizard slots.
I've never been in a game where I could often spend ten minutes of downtime and change a spell slot. What happens is the DM says you can try. And you roll to see if a random patrol or anything happens in those ten minutes that you have your thumb up your butt
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I've never been in a game where I could often spend ten minutes of downtime and change a spell slot. What happens is the DM says you can try. And you roll to see if a random patrol or anything happens in those ten minutes that you have your thumb up your butt
Maybe not often, but it really beats having to wait until the next day to solve a problem that you have a spell for, in your spellbook.
I don't prepare the create food or create water. But if I need them I am unlikely have less than 10 min to solve that problem. Heck, you could save an entire town with create water and 20-30 min.
I dont just plan for combat because that is not the whole game. That is why wizards are neat to me.
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I've never been in a game where I could often spend ten minutes of downtime and change a spell slot. What happens is the DM says you can try. And you roll to see if a random patrol or anything happens in those ten minutes that you have your thumb up your buttMaybe not often, but it really beats having to wait until the next day to solve a problem that you have a spell for, in your spellbook.
I don't prepare the create food or create water. But if I need them I am unlikely have less than 10 min to solve that problem. Heck, you could save an entire town with create water and 20-30 min.
I dont just plan for combat because that is not the whole game. That is why wizards are neat to me.
i actually prefer creative solution and use of skills and skill feats to solve ooc rather then magic.
so spell blending for another higher lvel slot or two gets way more mileage for me.
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I actually prefer creative solution and use of skills and skill feats to solve ooc rather then magic.This might be a reason why you tend to regard arguments of wizard versatility as not valuable.
I enjoy creative solutions with random, unsused spells.
it was a personal comment, and had no bearing on my opinion of the power metric of wizards. was just sharing my own enjoyments.
what i considered not valuable, was using non class solutions to a class problem, wich people want to do. but that doesnt fix the class problem, just covers it up.
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I've never been in a game where I could often spend ten minutes of downtime and change a spell slot. What happens is the DM says you can try. And you roll to see if a random patrol or anything happens in those ten minutes that you have your thumb up your butt
You may want to have a discussion with your GM - 10 minute breaks are a core assumption of PF2E, and while they aren't guaranteed between every encounter they shouldn't be hard to come by.
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You may want to have a discussion with your GM - 10 minute breaks are a core assumption of PF2E, and while they aren't guaranteed between every encounter they shouldn't be hard to come by.
I've never been in a game where I could often spend ten minutes of downtime and change a spell slot. What happens is the DM says you can try. And you roll to see if a random patrol or anything happens in those ten minutes that you have your thumb up your butt
we get 10 min rests to stock up on health and focus points. you just cannot reliably say you spend ten minutes just to change a spell out because you need to do x thing.
patrols
random encounters
time limits
other solutions to try
etc.
what campaigns do you run where you can actually go, well we could do x if i had the spell, but i dont, so give me 10 minutes?
in any game i play the situation usually changes in that timeframe. because the world isn't paused for those 10 minutes.
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The illusionist in particular has plenty of feat support and will struggle to find spare feat levels to spend on multiclassing. I am also starting to think the Evoker will struggle to get all the good feats, even if they only MC to sorcerer to get Dangerous sorcery, unless they take natural ambition to get widen spell.At the end of all this, it seems like the wizard is intended to mutliclass to find his interesting action options. That's what I intend to do the next time I make a wizard.
I'm going to look at them as generic arcane caster with lots of slots like the cleric is the generic divine caster with lots of healing. Then find some interesting ways to build a wizard using additional options that allow me to do something when my spells fail, which is pretty often at low level.
I'm definitely not against Incap spells now. My Giant barbarian got killed due to an incap spell. Blindness is a game over spell if it lands and no one can remove it. As a DM I would hate to see players landing blindness for even a round on my BBEGs. It would ruin the fight like it turned my barbarian from a raging damage machine into a pounded into the wall pile of dead flesh.
You can usually pick up a multiclass archetype or additional weapon action with an ancestry feat. So shouldn't be an issue. With an evoker, getting Dangerous Sorcery and more cantrips and a few easy True Strike slots would be helpful.
I would not want that emanation wizard focus spell. I don't want to be in range of people and it would work to hit my party too often. I much prefer the sorcerer for a blaster type myself with a wizard MC for extra spell slots.
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Wrong. If a character with low INT tries to use INT skills, they are much more likely to critical fail and get bad info.People keep trying to argue for recall knowledge for a class specific third action when it's a universal again makes me head itch
Get past it please.
Sure... But that applies to those non-INT recall checks on that same character so it's really a moot point unless you're saying it really awesome for SOME recall checks but you can say the same for clerics, druids, investigators, witch, rogue, bard, alchemists, ...
So how it's not really a wizard thing? Or anything to bandy about as a super awesome plus? Good stats help with skill checks is pretty universal thing. :(
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People keep trying to argue for recall knowledge for a class specific third action when it's a universal again makes me head itch
Get past it please.
Wizards just cast spells. Wich means at low level they are boring and easily killed as they have no class feature or other resource to work.
At higher levels it can be good.
For me. Wizard feats are unhelpful enough if I really want to be a master of spells I just take a caster dedication and spell blending thesis and consume my dedication slots into more wizard slots.
I've never been in a game where I could often spend ten minutes of downtime and change a spell slot. What happens is the DM says you can try. And you roll to see if a random patrol or anything happens in those ten minutes that you have your thumb up your butt
You're twisting the argument. Its not that Recall Knowledge is a class specific Wizard only ability, its just that Recall Knowledge a good candidate as a possible 3rd action for Wizards, especially since they naturally inclined towards those skills. Makes sense given that Wizards are nerdy in lore. Plus Wizards already get metamagic, focus spells, and certain spells as good 3rd action options. Recall Knowledge is just another tool in the wizard's toolset.
At low levels, Wizards have plenty of resources, more than most casters with more spell slots, drain bond, and focus spell. My 1st level Evoker has double the spell slots of regular casters plus has a focus spell. By 5th level with Spell Blending, I'll have five 3rd level spell slots while most casters have only two. I don't see how low level Wizards are that far behind.
I think our groups are different because 10+ minute breaks are fairly frequent to recover HP and refresh focus points.
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While I like the theory of conceal spell, I cannot fathom it working with consistency due to it requiring two separate skill checks against perception dcs (which are decent at worst on npcs). The skill checks use dex and cha while the classes that get access to conceal spell are int casters.
Essentially, you roll twice and take the lower using skills which you cannot maintain being the best at.
From 4th level, with Silent Spell, it becomes a single check with Stealth, so one based on a stat you were probably increasing anyway. You need to keep Stealth maxed, but that's doable, and you can make occasional use of it at 2nd and 3rd with merely Trained Deception, which is a good thematic choice for an Illusionist anyway.
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Wrong. If a character with low INT tries to use INT skills, they are much more likely to critical fail and get bad info.People keep trying to argue for recall knowledge for a class specific third action when it's a universal again makes me head itch
Get past it please.
? so?
wizard, witch, mastermind, investigator, alchemist no matter how you slice it, still not a class specific third action argument. its still universal.
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People keep trying to argue for recall knowledge for a class specific third action when it's a universal again makes me head itch
Get past it please.
Wizards just cast spells. Wich means at low level they are boring and easily killed as they have no class feature or other resource to work.
At higher levels it can be good.
For me. Wizard feats are unhelpful enough if I really want to be a master of spells I just take a caster dedication and spell blending thesis and consume my dedication slots into more wizard slots.
I've never been in a game where I could often spend ten minutes of downtime and change a spell slot. What happens is the DM says you can try. And you roll to see if a random patrol or anything happens in those ten minutes that you have your thumb up your butt
You're twisting the argument. Its not that Recall Knowledge is a class specific Wizard only ability, its just that Recall Knowledge a good candidate as a possible 3rd action for Wizards, especially since they naturally inclined towards those skills. Makes sense given that Wizards are nerdy in lore. Plus Wizards already get metamagic, focus spells, and certain spells as good 3rd action options. Recall Knowledge is just another tool in the wizard's toolset.
At low levels, Wizards have plenty of resources, more than most casters with more spell slots, drain bond, and focus spell. My 1st level Evoker has double the spell slots of regular casters plus has a focus spell. By 5th level with Spell Blending, I'll have five 3rd level spell slots while most casters have only two. I don't see how low level Wizards are that far behind.
I think our groups are different because 10+ minute breaks are fairly frequent to recover HP and refresh focus points.
i never twisted the argument, because what you and others are arguing, i have repeatedly said, isnt what im arguing.
1st level you have 3. cleric might have 2, but he has 1-4 fonts of heal or harm as well. bard has unique one action cantrips. so does witch even if they are not as good.
i dont see how you can get a 10+ minute break inside a dungeon or cave or hideout. without risk of being ambushed.
if you ran into a random encounter in the wild then sure, or have completely beaten the scenario for that location. outside of that i think it doesnt make sense.
might be just the fact they called it a 10 minute rest. if i ignore that and call it a 1 min rest, its more believable.
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From 4th level, with Silent Spell, it becomes a single check with Stealth, so one based on a stat you were probably increasing anyway. You need to keep Stealth maxed, but that's doable, and you can make occasional use of it at 2nd and 3rd with merely Trained Deception, which is a good thematic choice for an Illusionist anyway.While I like the theory of conceal spell, I cannot fathom it working with consistency due to it requiring two separate skill checks against perception dcs (which are decent at worst on npcs). The skill checks use dex and cha while the classes that get access to conceal spell are int casters.
Essentially, you roll twice and take the lower using skills which you cannot maintain being the best at.
Both of those metamagic feats add an action to the spell being cast...unless it is a 1 action cast...is that possible to do?
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Both of those metamagic feats add an action to the spell being cast...unless it is a 1 action cast...is that possible to do?Silent Spell is a direct upgrade of Conceal Spell, since it has "When you use Silent Spell, you can choose to gain the benefits of Conceal Spell, and you don't need to attempt a Deception check because the spell has no verbal components." written into it.
So it's just the 1 action for Silent Spell and however many actions casting the spell would be.
Yep, this. Silent Spell is basically 'Improved Concealed Spell' in several ways (in addition to actually making said spell actually silent).
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Bards don't get a whole lot of skills and are almost always expected to cover a bunch of the social skills as well. This also massively cuts into the skill feats that they can put into their knowledge skills. Even playing an Enigma bard, I rarely find GMs in PFS letting me make lore checks with bardic lore against lower DCs and it doesn't help you at all with the kinds of checks that a lot of scenarios and quests require.
If you really want to be good at handling magic skill challenges you pretty much need to have Arcana, Occultism, Nature and Religion at least trained. This is a little more than just "what to do with your third action," if you want to be able to be a master of magic, so the only bard that really gets to be a lore master is the enigma bard, and that means not getting all the spell versatility or giving all the bonuses to your party. Also, what bard has actions left over for recalling knowledge?
Also silent spell has specific language about allowing you to do conceal spell with only stealth checks.
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I don't think Physical boost is as bad as it is getting talked about here. Its purpose isn't really to be a combat trick. Its purpose is to be an incredibly flexible +2 to saving throws when you know you are going to need to be making them, with the added flex features of being able to be used to boost someone needing to make an acrobatics or athletics check AND it can be used on someone else. That is a lot of versatility.
I get that it doesn't help someone looking for an every battle offensive focus spell power, and that will knock it down for a lot of people evaluating it in comparison to druid or sorcerer focus powers. But it isn't nearly as broken an element as I first thought it was. Form control is still a mess, but the buff focused transmuter is not a bad wizard build, it just suffers from the same thing the alchemist does, but the bard does not, so much, in that most of its lower level buffs are single target and thus better cast on someone else in the party, making the transmuter feel more like a vending machine.
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The world may not pause for 10 minutes, but there often isn't anything preventing the heroes from going back the way they came to a safe place to rest for a short while.
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Even if a bard is better than a wizard, are two bards better than a bard and a wizard?
Honestly, an investigator [int based and can get a free action Recall with their required action] and a cleric [wisdom based] might be a better pair than either a bard or a wizard. Investigator has plenty of skills, increases and feats plus options for free use AND class feats that buff recall checks and is int based while the cleric picks up the wisdom side of recall: Bard can manage recall checks but have other things to spend actions on [often having a glut of actions to use] making recall less attractive. The only thing that makes recall look like an attractive option for a wizard is the almost total lack of other things to do that are 1 action.