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Oh Absolutely. It is a no-brainer class splash for any spellcaster that wants to do spell damage.So it's a no-brainer to a Wizard as they only do spell damage.
If you want a Blaster Wizard then sure I guess. Outside of wanting to be a Blaster, its limitation on spells without duration and lack of contrip support means I can probably spend those two feats better elsewhere. 3 feats overall if I ever want to take an additional archetype. It's a pretty high tax for not that much extra damage.
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Oh Absolutely. It is a no-brainer class splash for any spellcaster that wants to do spell damage.So it's a no-brainer to a Wizard as they only do spell damage.
In addition to illusions, debuffs, divination, walls, etc. They also do spell damage.
Hmm... You know I was going to say that the 14 CHA is a steep cost for a Wizard, since typically they take Int/Dex/Con/Wis boosts. But in the specific case of my Evoker wizard... He's a half elf, which would enable Multitalented. My original plan for that was Alchemist,then Witch. But... Huh.
In general, I feel like sorcerer dedication has narrative implications that some other classes don't have, which is why I don't want to label it a an auto pick or no brainer or what have you. But if it fits your story, sure, why not.
If you want a Blaster Wizard then sure I guess. Outside of wanting to be a Blaster, its limitation on spells without duration and lack of contrip support means I can probably spend those two feats better elsewhere. 3 feats overall if I ever want to take an additional archetype. It's a pretty high tax for not that much extra damage.Oh Absolutely. It is a no-brainer class splash for any spellcaster that wants to do spell damage.So it's a no-brainer to a Wizard as they only do spell damage.
You can't get it before level 4 so there's no cantrip support anyway. Most damaging spells don't have a duration even if they have sometimes lasting effects (like Phantasmal Killer).
I don't know what a blaster Wizard is. Or I should say what a non blaster Wizard is. Damage is the first contribution one should expect from a Wizard.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In addition to illusions, debuffs, divination, walls, etc. They also do spell damage.Oh Absolutely. It is a no-brainer class splash for any spellcaster that wants to do spell damage.So it's a no-brainer to a Wizard as they only do spell damage.
I've played a PFS game recently with a level 5 Wizard. First fight of the day against multiple enemies, he draws a scroll, casts Fireball and tells us it was his only Fireball of the day. Obviously, I didn't expect much out of him so I haven't been disappointed.
Damage is Wizard's first contribution like it's Barbarian's first contribution. It doesn't mean it must be its only contribution, but when you need someone to blast a bunch of monsters you expect the Wizard to step forward. Casting walls and illusions and divinations is nice, but they are situational. When you fight for your lives, hearing the Wizard telling you "it was his only efficient spell of the day" is not reassuring.| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've played a PFS game recently with a level 5 Wizard. First fight of the day against multiple enemies, he draws a scroll, casts Fireball and tells us it was his only Fireball of the day. Obviously, I didn't expect much out of him so I haven't been disappointed.
Damage is Wizard's first contribution like it's Barbarian's first contribution. It doesn't mean it must be its only contribution, but when you need someone to blast a bunch of monsters you expect the Wizard to step forward. Casting walls and illusions and divinations is nice, but they are situational. When you fight for your lives, hearing the Wizard telling you "it was his only efficient spell of the day" is not reassuring.
That's your interpretation. In lore, that's more of a sorcerer thing.
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But what if specialist Wizards could get a +2 on their to-hit rolls/save DCs for just their school spells? That would really make a difference for the schools, and since the bonus only applies to one kind of spells, I believe it would not be overpowered. Would still mean that certain schools would be 'mandatory' for certain concepts, but that would kinda be the point.I advise against this because it's unequal in application. Enchantment wizards and Evoker wizards get a huge buff from this, Conjurers and Abjurers get hardly anything. (Also what do universalists get?)
If we're saying the problem is all wizards are weak then this will just make it so some wizards are ok and the rest are still weak.
And that's the rub, isn't it? Spell schools are not created equal (nor should they be) and that may be why the devs did not implement the concept. But still, as an experiment in a home game this may have merit, as there is usually only 1 Wizard in a given party. And thus different school specialisations would not have to compete, yet the Wizard would have an advantage over another casting class, if only in their chosen specialisation.
Although it would push direct damage for casters to... undesirable levels, if the party is cool with that, more power to them.
As for Generalists, I'm inclined to say they only get the boost to their Focus spells, but... that would be too bad. And of course they also can't get a +1 to everything either. So no good answer on my part I'm afraid.
Also playing around with crit fail chances is a recipe for disaster - let me ask you a question. When I target the lowest save on a creature, how high of a % chance should I have to remove it from the fight completely?
Well, the Incapacitation trait is a thing for a reason, so there is that.
As for chances, it depends on what kind of target we are talking about? Level -2 critters that get hit in their weak save should be critically affected about 25% baseline. Debuffs can push that to 30-35%, so if you target a bunch of them after a careful set-up, maybe even with help from the martials, you should see some enemy taken out by the spell at least every other fight.
On-level targets could then be critically hit with about 25% chance of success, given the right preparation. Since their number is limited, this has a huge impact on the encounter if successful, but since it requires co-operation, that is a fair pay-off for good teamwork. Besides, all those de-buffs need to hit first too.
For a level +2 boss enemy... yeah, Incapacitation spells aren't gonna cut it, but that is a good thing. No more 'I Win' button spells.
The problem in 3.x / PF 1 wasn't so much that insta-kill spells exist, it was the ease with which the save DCs could be pushed so high that the success chance could reach 80-95 %.
I think the ways to fix the wizard are:
1. Make the wizard better at casting than everyone else. Maybe start them off with Expert or at least Expert casting in their specialized school of magic and let them reach Legendary sooner.
Or
2. Make them some interesting 1 action school options that make them competitive with other classes. Some special school cantrips that don't require focus points.
As for 1, se my previous post.
As for 2: Yes, that might be a way to do things. Not just for Wizards, mind, but that could be a thing Wizards excel at compared to other casters.
My theory is that the devs were very conservative with giving Wizards too many toys, since you can always add more stuff in later publications, but once the Genie is out of the bottle...
Metamagic and metamagic enhancers should be the bread and butter of a 'scientific caster', modifying existing spells to suit their needs in ways other casters simply can't. And 'on the fly' too.
Since spell points are not a thing... Maybe they could have features where they can burn a lower-level spell slot to augment a spell they are casting right now or something.
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A Bard (I have the most experience with them) can both sling a two action spell and then follow it up with a variety of 1 action cantrips that can be picked by situation. Courage, Defense, and Dirge are all single action effects with large AoE's that massively swing the scales (regardless of party size - more targets is a larger swing, but even with a single friend the cantrips are good) while still being unique to the Bard. What single action can the Wizard take that, without save or contested roll, can do the same thing?
We're back to power.
You appear to be unhappy with the Wizard 1 action options, which are things like Metamagic or managing your familiar, because they compare unfavorably to the actions a bard can take.
As far as I'm concerned, that's extremely important- Bards themselves are overtuned and their one action compositions are probably more powerful than they should be because of how sensitive the system is to Math Manipulation. No one needs actions that powerful.
Asking for options as good as what Bards get is also missing the fact that bards get only 50-70% of the spellcasting of a Wizard...
Witch is probably what a "balanced" version of the Bard action economy looks like, and they are a much more equitable comparison to Wizards.
So ignore the power of Inspire Courage/Inspire Defense/Dirge of Doom then, I was more talking about how they're unique, and valuable, Bard cantrips that consistently contribute but if you're stuck on their relative power we can look at a different spell.
House of Imaginary Walls. 10'x10' wall adjacent to you, and while it does allow a save, it still has Hardness 2(SL) and HP 4(SL). As a cantrip it auto-heightens and is a single action. You can even use it out of combat since it specifically states your allies can use it to climb up on.
Not a terribly powerful spell, all things considered, but extremely useful and can be cast all day.
Compared to some (most) of the wizard class feat options this would be a fantastic addition to the Wizard, particularly for an illusionist.
@Whoever said "silent spell" as a cool unique action option in combat, sure, I guess if I'm really driving at it the ability to cast just by waving my hands is...a Wizard only thing (I think, I didn't look to confirm) and totally worth no moving, no adding a useful effect to the combat that will end the fight sooner, not something that stops as soon as I run out of spell slots (unless you can apply it to cantrips?), I think you're able to see where I'm going with this. Silent spell is boring, highly situational, and if you're using it in combat there's a really specific corner case that makes it viable.
Wizard has several metamagic/class feats focused on stealthy casting, and if you're in a campaign that makes that useful then you're going to get great mileage out of the feats. Otherwise they're not terribly useful things to pick up and the alternatives are...equally boring.
Also recalling cast spells is essentially just saving gold. I can duplicate that by buying a Wand. I'd prefer a pearl of power/runestone but those were removed from the game for...reasons?
I'm not looking to catapult Wizards into a game solo'ing power level. I'm looking for options that make me excited for my next round of class level feats, and for something that I can do in combat to consistently contribute (personal preference for things that don't require me to roll dice) in fights that don't feel like a reskinned crossbow bolt or only require limited resource expenditure.
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Right now I feel the Wizard is just the generic spell caster.It seems as though Thesis is supposed to be the big decision for wizards (like Bloodline, Muse, Mystery, Order, etc) and school specialization is secondary. But right now there aren't many feats that interact with Thesis, or school choice really.
I think there is plenty of space in Wizard to add interesting class feats that expand and enhance their original Thesis choice. Currently you just pick one at the beginning and they scale in power as you level but they don't feel that unique from one another to me.
Spell Blending could get a feat(s) that lets them trade some slots to prepare a spell of a different tradition.
Metamagic Experimentation could get the ability to prepare X number of spells with metamagic already applied but still only costing the original amount of actions.
Spell Substitution getting something like "Trigger-> you crit succeed on a recall knowledge check against an enemy. Effect -> Swap any prepared spell for one in your spellbook of the same level" would be pretty cool.
Staff Wizards could get feats that let them customize and expand on the spells they get to put into a staff as well as charges.
etc.
Wizards have a lot of things that interact with spells and bonded item, but not much that interacts with the earlier Thesis choice. Bard/Sorc/Druid get a bunch of feats that expand upon their original choice and further emphasize their "sub-class" and Wizards really don't. Which for me leads them to feel like "generic spell guy", they are still effective and work in the system but they do lose a lot of the "cool" factor.
Right now I feel the Wizard is just the generic spell caster.It seems as though Thesis is supposed to be the big decision for wizards (like Bloodline, Muse, Mystery, Order, etc) and school specialization is secondary. But right now there aren't many feats that interact with Thesis, or school choice really.
I think there is plenty of space in Wizard to add interesting class feats that expand and enhance their original Thesis choice. Currently you just pick one at the beginning and they scale in power as you level but they don't feel that unique from one another to me.
Spell Blending could get a feat(s) that lets them trade some slots to prepare a spell of a different tradition.
Metamagic Experimentation could get the ability to prepare X number of spells with metamagic already applied but still only costing the original amount of actions.
Spell Substitution getting something like "Trigger-> you crit succeed on a recall knowledge check against an enemy. Effect -> Swap any prepared spell for one in your spellbook of the same level" would be pretty cool.
Staff Wizards could get feats that let them customize and expand on the spells they get to put into a staff as well as charges.
etc.
Wizards have a lot of things that interact with spells and bonded item, but not much that interacts with the earlier Thesis choice. Bard/Sorc/Druid get a bunch of feats that expand upon their original choice and further emphasize their "sub-class" and Wizards really don't. Which for me leads them to feel like "generic spell guy", they are still effective and work in the system but they do lose a lot of the "cool" factor.
Oh hey! A bunch of good suggestions that don't mess with the underlying game math or make the class more powerful in an absolute sense, while maintaining the existing themes already present in the design.
This is the sort of thing that I dont think you'll find very many people opposed to.
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I never said silent spell was primarily a combat feat, but it is a terribly useful one action ability that wizards can use in many different kinds of encounters. Bond conservation is like a "wand of any spell you already cast this day." Not exactly, mechanically, but that kind of utility is far greater than something you can buy, unless you are buying wands of every lower level spell in your spell book.
But your criteria here is clearly impossible. You are not excited by current wizard options and the bard gives you the options you are looking for in play. Play a bard. I understand that you are frustrated because you liked playing wizards in other versions of the game, and now the wizard is not the class that fills your mechanical desires for a class you want to play. Bards simply do not have anywhere near the ability to cast as many spells from spell slots per day as the wizard. They make up for it in other things they can do, but if casting different spells for different situations is what you want from a character, there is not another character close to the wizard in filling that function.
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They make up for it in other things they can do, but if casting different spells for different situations is what you want from a character, there is not another character close to the wizard in filling that function.
Wizard is additionally now the go to class for "all I Really want to do is burn things", since a Wizard can sacrifice all that versatility and just bring more fireballs (or whatever specific spell you like) than anyone else by a numerically significant margin.
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They make up for it in other things they can do, but if casting different spells for different situations is what you want from a character, there is not another character close to the wizard in filling that function.Wizard is additionally now the go to class for "all I Really want to do is burn things", since a Wizard can sacrifice all that versatility and just bring more fireballs (or whatever specific spell you like) than anyone else by a numerically significant margin.
I've been thinking this the entire time I've been lurking this thread, people are weirdly underrating the additional casts, having to conserve less translates straight into higher DPR. For a relatively straightforward "I want to drop fireballs and other such spells" build, the Wizard can't be beat, if you wanna get really spicy, spell blending for even more high end slots will really make the engine purr.
Like, people are back to talking about "buffs are the only useful thing a caster can do" and I'm just blinking like "we're past this multiple threads ago, I have a post detailing success chances on saving throw blast spells from back then that covered it" where spellcasters are able to rack up way more damage (across multiple targets) or chunk reliably (against higher level targets) by using saving throw blast spells.
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With a limited number of spells and no assurance as to when the adventuring day will end, you're going to blow off 1 action magic missile spells?As I already said in this topic, the day always end before my spells. If you think the day gonna be long, just take more spells.
My players wouldn't do it unless it was a finisher.
The other part of what you state is true for every caster I play. Which further shows why wizard slots and versatility just don't mean much in actual game play. Casters of any type rarely run out of spells in play except in these threads where the theoretical idea of those extra wizard and sorcerer spells somehow equal bard cantrips, the druid order abilities, and cleric healing.
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In which case Wizards only have 3 as wellNo, they have 4: Crit success, success, fail, crit fail.
Martials have 3: Crit success, success, crit fail (as fail = crit fail).
And the feats allowing to deal damage on a fail are extremely rare and limited. The only martials who really have a fail effect are Alchemists and Swashbucklers.Dangerous Sorcery is not a wizard feat should not be included when examining core wizardSo we never take Monk Dedication into account for Wild Druids and Animal Barbarians?
When a Dedication is obvious, you have to take it into account. And the fact that it can be taken by other classes has nothing to do with Wizard.Sorcerers are very very different to wizards in play, they have great feat support, better bloodline spells.I disagree. The main difference between Sorcerer and Wizard is Spontaneous casting. Sorcerer's feats are mostly the same than Wizard feats. Bloodline spells are just normal spells. And Focus Spells are not incredible either. You should look at the Sorcerer a bit more closely.
I'm ok to say that Sorcerer is different (it's obvious) but it's very similar to Wizard.Also since we are talking specifically wizards the 3 tiers of success for spell DCs (Crit success on a save is mostly no effect) it applies to every other caster not just wizards.We were speaking of increasing the level of a martial vs increasing the level of a wizard. So other casters are not the point.
Sorcerer has a few cool focus spells you can build around like Angelic sorcerer healing halo or undead bloodline drain life for 1 action. But mostly I agree that wizard and sorcerer both live and die on a single saves at low level. That changes at higher level when their AoE spells become quite potent and it pays for a group to set let the caster nuke. Even up to fireball it's not great to let the caster nuke rather than let the martials attack. No use holding back for peanut damage.
But some of those higher level spells, much better to let the caster nuke when he is hitting for some crazy AoE damage with riders.
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With a limited number of spells and no assurance as to when the adventuring day will end, you're going to blow off 1 action magic missile spells?As I already said in this topic, the day always end before my spells. If you think the day gonna be long, just take more spells.My players wouldn't do it unless it was a finisher.
The other part of what you state is true for every caster I play. Which further shows why wizard slots and versatility just don't mean much in actual game play. Casters of any type rarely run out of spells in play except in these threads where the theoretical idea of those extra wizard and sorcerer spells somehow equal bard cantrips, the druid order abilities, and cleric healing.
This is a big part of what is happening with the wizard. A mix of player expectations and GM ruling has a massive effect on how "good" casting can be. Many GMs are used to wizards being so overturned that they are accustomed to saying no to players, and players can easily get burned after seeing one spell fail or get ruled against and say "never do that again."
The mentality that it is a waste of a spell to cast a 1 magic missile, especially out of a lower level slot is one that is going to lead to a player lamenting that they have nothing to do with their lower level slots or their 3rd actions. But extra damage is extra damage and the evoker gets a free version of this built into their attack routine, at least once every combat. I don't agree that the wizard needs to think damage first all the time, as party dynamics will determine what is the best fit, but knowing what are your one action spells, and your reaction spells, and how to use them to maximum effect is as important a part of your tactical planning as anything else.
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Also, level 2 ventriloquism is like having a 1 action ghost sound that doesn't look like you are casting a spell, even without having silent spell. Only it can also do voices and make you sound like whatever you want.
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On the topic of dangerous sorcery, I think it's fine to have that be part of the discussion regarding wizards. Archetypes in this system are a very natural part of character progression, and I don't think it should be viewed as dirty or cheating to include it like multiclassing might have been in 5e or PF1. I personally haven't built a character of any class that didn't plan on taking an archetype at some point.
It can be part of the discussion. I took it with my wizard and so did the other wizard. Sorcerer dedication is as good as taking something like expanded cantrip. Charisma is a good stat to work up for a wizard as charisma skills are some of the best combat use spells with Intimidate and now Bon Mot.
Dangerous Sorcery doesn't change a whole lot at low level, but it is nice at higher level.
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Some things to note:
Status bonuses to saving throws are very very common at medium to high levels. Spell penetration is a 6th level feat that is essentially a flavorful wizard exclusive way to get a +1 to DCs against the most powerful monsters you will face, but I have seen it disparaged in wizard threads time and again. I believe it is a much more flavorful way to give wizards the kind of power boost that people are asking for because it is not just a flat math feat (always a +1) but a demonstration of how the wizard has studied the most dangerous, spell resistant foes and learned to overcome their resistances.
Conceal spell turning into silent spell makes for the only caster in the game that can reasonably cast spells secretly, without having to make themselves the center of attention (like the bard being able to disguise spells within a performance).
Split slot is a feat that gives you significantly more versatility with your casting. It makes you better at doing the thing that wizards do best, having the right spell for the job when you need it.
Depending upon your specialization, advanced school spell can be a major power boost. In fact, all of the hate towards wizard focus spells should really evaporate at anyone looking at their advanced spell options. THe biggest problem that advanced school spells face is that they compete with with a feat that lets universalist pick up the most wizardly of all wizard approaches to focus spells, where they can literally choose which school's focus spell they want each day, and of course bond conservation, which is just, here is another free spell slot each day.
Past level 8 there are so many good wizard feats that you can't get all of them on one wizard, and many of them (like quickened casting vs Scroll savant) take the wizard in very different directions based on which one you chose.
I think a lot of "wizard feats are boring" is coming from people looking at lower level wizard feats, not getting excited by them, and then never considering how...
That is not what's going on. They are comparing the wizard feats even at higher level to feats other classes can take.
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Hmm. Every barbarian in my campaigns has multiclassed, because of Sudden Charge is really the only feat at level 1-2 that makes you better at hitting things. I see a lot of Sudden Charge > Dedication > Swipe.If every build you can easily take a dedication it means that class has some very unappealing levels.
Barbarian as example. I can't justify a dedication without free Archetype. Every level has multiple things I'd want for multiple builds.
No Raging Intimidation?
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For me any chasis must be able to "perform" on its own. Full stop.Dangerous Sorcery increases your damage by 14% on 2d6 damage per level spells. If there was a first level feat in any class giving a +1 to attack (12% damage increase) do you think anyone would think twice before taking it?
Dangerous Sorcery is plain overpowered. The only reason people don't scream about it is because they have a very strange image of the wizard doing wizardly stuff with no damage associated.
Wow. This is surprising. You're the guy claiming 20 to 25% damage increase for a swashbuckler isn't worth an action or that big a deal, but are now arguing 14% on a 2d6 spell is a big deal?
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Hmm... You know I was going to say that the 14 CHA is a steep cost for a Wizard, since typically they take Int/Dex/Con/Wis boosts. But in the specific case of my Evoker wizard... He's a half elf, which would enable Multitalented. My original plan for that was Alchemist,then Witch. But... Huh.
In general, I feel like sorcerer dedication has narrative implications that some other classes don't have, which is why I don't want to label it a an auto pick or no brainer or what have you. But if it fits your story, sure, why not.
Charisma is a really good stat in PF2, even moreso now with the addition of Bon Mot.
You can use one action with Intimidate or Bon Mot to set up a spell, which is very nice. It's one of the stats with skills that be used with 1 action to lower a saving throw.
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They make up for it in other things they can do, but if casting different spells for different situations is what you want from a character, there is not another character close to the wizard in filling that function.Wizard is additionally now the go to class for "all I Really want to do is burn things", since a Wizard can sacrifice all that versatility and just bring more fireballs (or whatever specific spell you like) than anyone else by a numerically significant margin.I've been thinking this the entire time I've been lurking this thread, people are weirdly underrating the additional casts, having to conserve less translates straight into higher DPR. For a relatively straightforward "I want to drop fireballs and other such spells" build, the Wizard can't be beat, if you wanna get really spicy, spell blending for even more high end slots will really make the engine purr.
Like, people are back to talking about "buffs are the only useful thing a caster can do" and I'm just blinking like "we're past this multiple threads ago, I have a post detailing success chances on saving throw blast spells from back then that covered it" where spellcasters are able to rack up way more damage (across multiple targets) or chunk reliably (against higher level targets) by using saving throw blast spells.
Every caster class has AoE spells for those opportunities when AoE is a good option. This is not unique to the wizard. A few extra spells to cast AoE damage has not proven to spike DPR up to say lvl 9 or thereabouts. Once casters pick up some of those big dog AoE spells at about lvl 9, damage spikes for all casters with AoE spells.
Wow. This is surprising. You're the guy claiming 20 to 25% damage increase for a swashbuckler isn't worth an action or that big a deal, but are now arguing 14% on a 2d6 spell is a big deal?For me any chasis must be able to "perform" on its own. Full stop.Dangerous Sorcery increases your damage by 14% on 2d6 damage per level spells. If there was a first level feat in any class giving a +1 to attack (12% damage increase) do you think anyone would think twice before taking it?
Dangerous Sorcery is plain overpowered. The only reason people don't scream about it is because they have a very strange image of the wizard doing wizardly stuff with no damage associated.
I'd imagine it is a bigger deal because Dangerous Sorcery does not have an action cost.
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Honestly dangerous sorcery seems like a trap designed for people underwhelmed with caster damage. 1 damage on a lvl one spell and 10 damage on a lvl 10 spell is certainly not something I'd ever spend a precious class feat on. If it was 2 damage a spell lvl it would become a tax so I guess in the end it's just a feel good feat for casters desperate to contribute more dps.
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Honestly dangerous sorcery seems like a trap designed for people underwhelmed with caster damage. 1 damage on a lvl one spell and 10 damage on a lvl 10 spell is certainly not something I'd ever spend a precious class feat on.
This was my thinking as well. I've made and played several sorcerers. I think only one ever took it.
If it was 2 damage a spell lvl it would become a tax so I guess in the end it's just a feel good feat for casters desperate to contribute more dps.
I disagree on this point though. I feel that would have been right on the money.
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Honestly dangerous sorcery seems like a trap designed for people underwhelmed with caster damage. 1 damage on a lvl one spell and 10 damage on a lvl 10 spell is certainly not something I'd ever spend a precious class feat on. If it was 2 damage a spell lvl it would become a tax so I guess in the end it's just a feel good feat for casters desperate to contribute more dps.
It adds up for AoE spells at higher level, but pretty bee bee gun like at lower level. It's not necessary at all, but not bad when you hit 5 or 6 targets with a lvl 5 to 7 aoe spell and deal an extra 25 and up damage. If they critically fail it can be really nice.
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I never said silent spell was primarily a combat feat, but it is a terribly useful one action ability that wizards can use in many different kinds of encounters. Bond conservation is like a "wand of any spell you already cast this day." Not exactly, mechanically, but that kind of utility is far greater than something you can buy, unless you are buying wands of every lower level spell in your spell book.
But your criteria here is clearly impossible. You are not excited by current wizard options and the bard gives you the options you are looking for in play. Play a bard. I understand that you are frustrated because you liked playing wizards in other versions of the game, and now the wizard is not the class that fills your mechanical desires for a class you want to play. Bards simply do not have anywhere near the ability to cast as many spells from spell slots per day as the wizard. They make up for it in other things they can do, but if casting different spells for different situations is what you want from a character, there is not another character close to the wizard in filling that function.
Well, if you look at my posts you'll see that I've stated I went from Wizard, to Wizard (Bard Dedication), to Bard (full). I cast more spells per day that notably impact combat than any Wizard will and as a Charisma caster with decent intelligence I have enough skills to fill in for all the required out of combat roles I fill. Party is: Ranger/Champion(Liberation)/Rogue/Barbarian(Dragon)/Bard. We're on Book 3 of AoA; I played the Wizard or Wizard(Bard) until midway through book 2.
None of that means that, "Oh Just Play Something Else" should be the answer to, "Hey, this class has a really negative play experience. What can we do to fix it?" And no - Has more Spell Slots isn't a real benefit when you can, and do, regularly run out of spells per day. Every other class has things they can do for the entire day, and most of them are interesting and fun. This matches the design goal of getting rid of mandatory 15 minute adventuring days; why are Wizards (and I believe Sorcerers) not part of this?
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Dangerous sorcerery doesn't feel like much of a bonus... unless you are adding it to an area effect and plinking that extra few damage onto 3+ enemies.
I know a player that loves it because dealing damage is basically her favorite thing so every single extra point makes her smile - but I'd personally skip it in favor of widen spell or a familiar because those more fit what is fun for me (if I ever play a sorcerer instead of a wizard, that is).
Dangerous Sorcery is absolutely a case of something that may not "feel" like a lot of added damage, but people should absolutely ignore their feelings and look at the math.
Dangerous Sorcery is a significant percentile increase in your average spell damage done, unlike anything else you can get from a feat. Its just straight non-conditional damage.
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And no - Has more Spell Slots isn't a real benefit when you can, and do, regularly run out of spells per day.
This here is something I have a hard time with. How all in do you go with spells that you regularly run out? How many encounters are in your adventuring days?
There were only a few times in all of Age of Ashes my party I ran for had to really go into spell conservation mode, and that was with a Bard. 5-6 spells in the top 2 levels of slots generally meant one of those per encounter at least, and a Wizard can have double that.
And then a Wizard still has access to all the skill actions, cantrips, and focus spells at their disposal (seriously, these aren't that bad).
And then sometimes, you use lower level slots - you know you're not supposed to use your best actions every turn, right?
Wizards should be stronger than any other caster over a long adventuring day, as they have significantly more resources - and my experience tells me that Bards, Druids, and Sorcerers all have sufficient resources for most of the published content I've ran if they're reasonably careful.
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Wizards should be stronger than any other caster over a long adventuring day, as they have significantly more resources - and my experience tells me that Bards, Druids, and Sorcerers all have sufficient resources for most of the published content I've ran if they're reasonably careful.
Do Wizards have significantly more resources when you take into account other classes heavily utilise Focus powers? Druids can be casting a Wild Shape that replicates the highest level polymorph spell they can cast every encounter. Bards can give +1 to your allies' attack and damage (or -1 to everything on enemies) on every round of combat in a day, and +1-3 for a round every now and then using focus points. From 10th level even Sorcerers (who have close to on par spells per level to the Wizard) have access to things like Wish Twisted Form, an effective debuff that would likely be taken as a 5th level spell by plenty of Wizards, if they could.
Even if they burned every one of their spell slots in the first combat of the day they could continue to contribute, and in the case of the Bard they might well compete with a Wizard's 5 or 6 (assuming Spell Blending) highest level slots in terms of value added to a party just by using their cantrips.
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And no - Has more Spell Slots isn't a real benefit when you can, and do, regularly run out of spells per day.This here is something I have a hard time with. How all in do you go with spells that you regularly run out? How many encounters are in your adventuring days?
There were only a few times in all of Age of Ashes my party I ran for had to really go into spell conservation mode, and that was with a Bard. 5-6 spells in the top 2 levels of slots generally meant one of those per encounter at least, and a Wizard can have double that.
And then a Wizard still has access to all the skill actions, cantrips, and focus spells at their disposal (seriously, these aren't that bad).
And then sometimes, you use lower level slots - you know you're not supposed to use your best actions every turn, right?
Wizards should be stronger than any other caster over a long adventuring day, as they have significantly more resources - and my experience tells me that Bards, Druids, and Sorcerers all have sufficient resources for most of the published content I've ran if they're reasonably careful.
Because those compounding slots don't come online until mid to late levels and when they're your only major option for contribution in a fight you run through them quickly even after that.
Even with moving spells up and using the Bond Focus I ran out of spells consistently. Personally I had huge problems landing spell attack rolls, and frequently have problems with critical saves. I once threw three consecutive Grim Tendrils for 0 damage. With multiple targets in each line. (Mercenary fight in the forest when pursing the book keeper.) Is that part normal? No, but that was three rounds of combat and 3 spells is not an unusual number of spells to cast in a combat. Even at higher levels if we assumed eight spells of "peak" contribution level that's roughly a third of the Wizards daily expected contribution in a single fight, and that assumes that three spells is enough to see the end of the fight. If it is, the Wizard has a one or two remaining combats of contribution left before the party needs to rest if they want Wizardly support. So far in AoA, outside of major boss fights, it wasn't unusual to see 3-5 combats per day.
That's my largest problem with the Wizard cantrips and focus abilities. None of them add sufficient flexibility to the wizard to be easily worked into the Wizard's combat routine. Courage/Defense/Doom are probably at the peak of those options on the power scale for cantrips, but even the Focus options aren't sufficiently useful to make them go-to secondary abilities in place of a spell slot. The Wizard is also too squishy and with poor weapon proficiency options to engage in melee/ranged weapons combat most of the time.
I don't want a drastic increase in Wizard power. I am more than aware of the fact that this system's design goals are to make the contribution of classes roughly equal. My disagreement and dissatisfaction with Wizard is entirely with how closely Wizard meets that compared to the other classes at my table and that I've played.
I will say that I'm very excited to play an Illusion/Enchanter Gnomish Wizard, it looks like I can have fun with that especially since I think I can convince my group to play Agents of Edgewatch next and that'll really play into the whole disguised caster thing.
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And no - Has more Spell Slots isn't a real benefit when you can, and do, regularly run out of spells per day.This here is something I have a hard time with. How all in do you go with spells that you regularly run out? How many encounters are in your adventuring days?
There were only a few times in all of Age of Ashes my party I ran for had to really go into spell conservation mode, and that was with a Bard. 5-6 spells in the top 2 levels of slots generally meant one of those per encounter at least, and a Wizard can have double that.
And then a Wizard still has access to all the skill actions, cantrips, and focus spells at their disposal (seriously, these aren't that bad).
And then sometimes, you use lower level slots - you know you're not supposed to use your best actions every turn, right?
Wizards should be stronger than any other caster over a long adventuring day, as they have significantly more resources - and my experience tells me that Bards, Druids, and Sorcerers all have sufficient resources for most of the published content I've ran if they're reasonably careful.
Because those compounding slots don't come online until mid to late levels and when they're your only major option for contribution in a fight you run through them quickly even after that.
Even with moving spells up and using the Bond Focus I ran out of spells consistently. Personally I had huge problems landing spell attack rolls, and frequently have problems with critical saves. I once threw three consecutive Grim Tendrils for 0 damage. With multiple targets in each line. (Mercenary fight in the forest when pursing the book keeper.) Is that part normal? No, but that was three rounds of combat and 3 spells is not an unusual number of spells to cast in a combat. Even at higher levels if we assumed eight spells of "peak" contribution level that's roughly a third of the Wizards daily expected contribution in a single fight, and that assumes that...
I feel your frustration. I started off preserving spells as a wizard using cantrips for damage. The cantrips didn't do much. So I started launching spells out of frustration to see if I novaed the damage would be better. All I found out was that grim tendrils and burning hands are terrible. I had one round where I cased a burning hands with a lvl 1 slot to do some AoE damage and rolled 2 1s for damage. Even if the monsters missed their saves, I did 2 points of damage with a limited level 1 spell slot. I could have done that much damage with a dagger strike and more with a cantrip.
That's the feeling of being a wizard and relying so heavily on abilities that may or may not work whereas other classes have things that work all the time. Wizard has no fall back if that spell fails.
When a bard spells fails, the bard shrugs and plays Inspire Courage, the druid sends in their animal companion or shapechanges and attacks, and the cleric tosses out a heal and no one cares that his spell failed.
Life as a low level wizard is rough.
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Failing a slot spell is very rough for any caster. No matter what else you bring to the table, when you use 2-3 actions and one of your limited per day resource, you are aiming for some big bang.
Wizard having more slots makes it a bit less painful for them.
I feel the Wizard is supposed to be all about casting slot spells.
And I come to think that them having other abilities less powerful than other casters is a feature and not a bug.
If a Wizard had something as good as the options you mentioned above (Inspire, Companion, Heal...) AND more spell slots than other casters. Well you can guess how the balance would fare.
I now think what Wizard needs is options that will enable them to increase the impact of their slot spells or that will decrease the risk of having spent a slot in vain. In your example of low rolls, a feat that would ensure you get some damage (like a reroll, or change 1s into 2s or 3s like the PF1 Rogue talents) might be a good answer.
I think the coming book about magic will likely give some options there.
Anything that helps slot spells get better (more reliable actually) will help the Wizard more than the other casters.
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Wow. This is surprising. You're the guy claiming 20 to 25% damage increase for a swashbuckler isn't worth an action or that big a deal, but are now arguing 14% on a 2d6 spell is a big deal?
As Pounce said, 20-25% damage for an action is not worth it. 14% damage for free is. It's better than a +1 to attack on a martial. So, I think it's completely crazy considering that nothing gives you a +1 to attack for free.
Even up to fireball it's not great to let the caster nuke rather than let the martials attack. No use holding back for peanut damage.
At level 5-6, any enemy failing their save against a Dangerous Sorcery Fireball takes 80% of the average damage a Greatsword Dragon Barbarian does with 2 attacks. Maybe you consider a Greatsword Dragon Barbarian does peanut damage.
As I already stated before, you have a way to strong opinion of martials. You should start counting damage of each martials individualy. Because it looks to me that when you speak of martials you always speak of the one making critical hits and forget about the one having a bad round of misses.In the parties I've played in (PFS so random guys), I've been quite surprised to see that people were telling me to fireball even when one martial was in the radius. So, it looks like on that your experience is different from mine.
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Wow. This is surprising. You're the guy claiming 20 to 25% damage increase for a swashbuckler isn't worth an action or that big a deal, but are now arguing 14% on a 2d6 spell is a big deal?As Pounce said, 20-25% damage for an action is not worth it. 14% damage for free is. It's better than a +1 to attack on a martial. So, I think it's completely crazy considering that nothing gives you a +1 to attack for free.
You need to stop ignoring the massive cost of Dangerous Sorcery.
It costs somewhere between 20-30% of your class feats to access. It costs 2 boosts which could otherwise go to more beneficial stats.
Dangerous Sorcery has a very expensive barrier of entry. It’s not a casual dip you take to add some damage. It’s resource intensive and locks out other build options until at least 8th level.
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Every caster class has AoE spells for those opportunities when AoE is a good option. This is not unique to the wizard. A few extra spells to cast AoE damage has not proven to spike DPR up to say lvl 9 or thereabouts. Once casters pick up some of those big dog AoE spells at about lvl 9, damage spikes for all casters with AoE spells.They make up for it in other things they can do, but if casting different spells for different situations is what you want from a character, there is not another character close to the wizard in filling that function.Wizard is additionally now the go to class for "all I Really want to do is burn things", since a Wizard can sacrifice all that versatility and just bring more fireballs (or whatever specific spell you like) than anyone else by a numerically significant margin.I've been thinking this the entire time I've been lurking this thread, people are weirdly underrating the additional casts, having to conserve less translates straight into higher DPR. For a relatively straightforward "I want to drop fireballs and other such spells" build, the Wizard can't be beat, if you wanna get really spicy, spell blending for even more high end slots will really make the engine purr.
Like, people are back to talking about "buffs are the only useful thing a caster can do" and I'm just blinking like "we're past this multiple threads ago, I have a post detailing success chances on saving throw blast spells from back then that covered it" where spellcasters are able to rack up way more damage (across multiple targets) or chunk reliably (against higher level targets) by using saving throw blast spells.
Its self evident that Wizards benefit more- they can afford to use such powerful spells more often, ergo the additional power goes further. It's also been adequately demonstrated that such spells are far from situational, being very reliable damage in pretty much every case.
blBasic saves mean something like 80% odds of dealing some damage on at level targets with normal saves if not full damage, and a similarly great chance to chunk higher level targets for at least half (the subtraction from that hit chance as target level increases isn't that fast), these numbers then balloon absurdly as more targets are presented, leaving martials well behind.
I've seen this firsthand in my own game, across multiple casters.
You need to stop ignoring the massive cost of Dangerous Sorcery.It costs somewhere between 20-30% of your class feats to access. It costs 2 boosts which could otherwise go to more beneficial stats.
Dangerous Sorcery has a very expensive barrier of entry. It’s not a casual dip you take to add some damage. It’s resource intensive and locks out other build options until at least 8th level.
I don't ignore it. But Sorcerer Dedication also brings its benefits (2 skills Trained, 2 cantrips, a second spell list, the ability to take other Sorcerer feats).
Also, low level Wizard feats (like most low level feats) are pretty unimpressive.The 14 in Charisma is the real cost.
There's also the option of taking it at level 9 for a half elf, so Dangerous Sorcery becomes a level 10 feat (and it's way better than any Wizard level 10 feat, so it's still a very valid choice).
Dangerous Sorcery is overpowered as is. Taking it out of Sorcerer class is harder, but in my opinion it's still way to good to be ignored.
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no idea why people keep using archetypes to justify why the wizard doesn't need any change its almost like the class isn't supposed to have any appealing feats
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no idea why people keep using archetypes to justify why the wizard doesn't need any change its almost like the class isn't supposed to have any appealing feats
I made a pretty lengthy post just yesterday walking through wizard feats up to level 10 showing that a single class wizard has plenty of good feats, more than one wizard can take and that MCing is not an assumed or necessary choice. No one has yet responded to the fact that spell penetration is a unique wizard feat that gives the mythical +1 to save DCs against your most powerful enemies, and should be in the same conversations as dangerous sorcery as “essential offensive casting feats.” Note it works with all spells so blaster druids, sorcerers and even bards would do well to MC into wizard and pick it up at 12th level. By then you are facing a lot of enemies with that bonus.
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low level Wizard feats (like most low level feats) are pretty unimpressive.
I think this is the real heart of the “wizards have no good class feats, and thus I must Multi class” comes from. Most classes gets better things at level 2 by multiclassing, because dedication feats give more than most class feats, since the are tuned around also restricting a character from picking up any other dedication for 6 more levels.
However, any wizard that does this is giving up on conceal spell, and thus also silent spell, which are must have options for illusionists, enchanters, and often times diviner’s, if you want to ever be able to use your utility magic in social encounters. A pure battle wizard will be fine passing on these feats, but it is not a small thing to lock yourself out of.
Reach and widen are not sexy options but there is no caster that won’t eventually wish they had one or both of them. It is important that reach is exactly 5 feat more than most casters can move. Staying 30 feat farther away from an enemy, rather than moving to cast a spell is often a “make the enemy waste an action next turn.” Widen is “get at least one more enemy in your spell for an action. Yes other casters have these options too, but none of them have as many spell slots so their utility to wizards who build around them is greater.
Playing a wizard requires a willingness to bring your own imagination to the class instead of relying on the developer’s imagination to give you a default obvious character progression.
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I made a pretty lengthy post just yesterday walking through wizard feats up to level 10 showing that a single class wizard has plenty of good feats, more than one wizard can take and that MCing is not an assumed or necessary choice. No one has yet responded to the fact that spell penetration is a unique wizard feat that gives the mythical +1 to save DCs against your most powerful enemies, and should be in the same conversations as dangerous sorcery as “essential offensive casting feats.” Note it works with all spells so blaster druids, sorcerers and even bards would do well to MC into wizard and pick it up at 12th level. By then you are facing a lot of enemies with that bonus.
Well, not saying that I am an expert on Wizards and I would also rate Spell Penetration a very good feat, however I still think there is a major difference in between feats like Dangerous Sorcery, that kick in at level 1 and stay relevant till level 20, and feats like Spell Penetration, that although you can already take them as early as level 6 (which might even be a little bit too early), will just occasionally trigger until level 9 or 10 (so the feat is very situational early on) and only come to full effect after level 12, especially when keeping in mind that many campaigns will simply have ended by that time.
So in theory or if your campaign actually manages to hit level 20 this feat is a real no-brainer. However in (low-level) practice I fear not so much.
It starts appearing pretty regularly on level 8 monsters and higher. If you are fighting demons or devils in can start even earlier and it appears on aberrations, beasts and lots of other stuff too. I agree that it won’t appear as an obvious need at lower levels, and players that are not recalling knowledge might not realize how common magic resistance is, but it kicks in at mid level play pretty consistently (7-12).
It starts appearing pretty regularly on level 8 monsters and higher. If you are fighting demons or devils in can start even earlier and it appears on aberrations, beasts and lots of other stuff too. I agree that it won’t appear as an obvious need at lower levels, and players that are not recalling knowledge might not realize how common magic resistance is, but it kicks in at mid level play pretty consistently (7-12).
can't speak for others but i would never pick that feat and to be honest there is literally not a single feat on the wizard list i feel like i wouldn't trade for an archetype feat
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It starts appearing pretty regularly on level 8 monsters and higher. If you are fighting demons or devils in can start even earlier and it appears on aberrations, beasts and lots of other stuff too. I agree that it won’t appear as an obvious need at lower levels, and players that are not recalling knowledge might not realize how common magic resistance is, but it kicks in at mid level play pretty consistently (7-12).can't speak for others but i would never pick that feat and to be honest there is literally not a single feat on the wizard list i feel like i wouldn't trade for an archetype feat
Split Slot is a great feat I wish I could take on any prepared caster, and Unicore has already talked about how great Silent Spell is. Convincing Illusion is fantastic for an illusionist or any other wizard that likes illusion spells. If you want to go into mid levels, Clever Counterspell is incredibly good in a campaign that features lots of casters and is so flavorful. Honestly, I have a far easier time picking out feats for my wizard than my champion.
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It starts appearing pretty regularly on level 8 monsters and higher. If you are fighting demons or devils in can start even earlier and it appears on aberrations, beasts and lots of other stuff too. I agree that it won’t appear as an obvious need at lower levels, and players that are not recalling knowledge might not realize how common magic resistance is, but it kicks in at mid level play pretty consistently (7-12).can't speak for others but i would never pick that feat and to be honest there is literally not a single feat on the wizard list i feel like i wouldn't trade for an archetype feat
What?
Spell Penetration is absolutely one of a kind bonkers in the lategame, where it feels like more non-humanoid enemies than not pack Spell Resistance.
A +1 to anything in 2E is worth most costs.