Should Kineticist be renamed if it's brought back to 2e? Sounds too sci-fi

[devilbunny]

My players and I were just talking about this. We love everything about the design space of the class and the role it fulfills, but we agreed that the name didn't strike us as particularly fantasy. I guess, technically, science fiction does encompass science fantasy but that's a whole can of worms I don't want to get into.

However, what can I say is that most of my group grew up reading Tolkien, and later on George R.R. Martin, Brandon Sanderson, Robert E. Howard, Brent Weeks, Ursula K. Le Guin, Patrick Rothfuss, etc. As a reference point, we're mostly in our early 20's if that matters. Now obviously, Golarion isn't predicated heavily on any of these fantasy authors' works, but the heart of the matter is that none of us feel, in our gut, that kineticist is a particularly suitable name. It simply doesn't resonate as fantasy nor does it seem particularly evocative.

If anything, the first thing I think of is kinetics and, subsequently, physics. While that may accurately describe the broad range of a kineticist's abilities from a scientific standpoint, it doesn't feel like a fantasy class. If anything, the name conveys just a catch-all word for what the class's role is and nothing else. Like yes, I can manipulate an element, but what does that mean thematically for my character? How is that tied into the setting? Unlike most classes, there's little to no consistent media to use as a frame of reference when you think kineticist (besides elemental mages in various forms of fiction that differ from source to source and benders from Avatar but the latter is tied heavily to the setting).

Wizard? You think of a mighty and powerful wielder of the arcane arts who has spent years and years of study unlocking the secrets of reality. Gandalf, Dumbledore, Merlin, Prospero, Sparrowhawk, Harry Dresden, etc. Gunslinger? Conjures forth a deadeye gun fiend with smoking barrels and a propensity for dishing out high octane violence, all the while gritting their teeth. Roland Deschain, Wyatt Earp, Billy the Kid, the Man with No Name, etc. Rogue? Endless amount of concepts that leap to mind - thief with a heart of gold, the assassin with a rigid code of honor, the ruthless gang enforcer, scheming mastermind who weaves webs of lies.

Kineticist? Hmm, something about manipulating elements. Maybe middle school science where you first encounter the concept of kinetic energy. Conceptually, nothing strikes me besides Avatar. There's no inherent cool character archetype that stands out, and that I can build off of roleplaying-wise. Sure, that hypothetically gives me the freedom to play whatever and then justify it, but it doesn't give me inspiration for a character concept.

It doesn't need to be an already existing concept or name even. Look at D&D 4e's avenger. While you can argue over the merits of the name, it certainly sounds badass and fitting for a divine assassin sent to hunt down the enemies of their god. That's an idea you can play with right off the bat. Now I will admit 4e did also have some bland names. Like seeker. Way too generic, and it's kind of a stretch to relate to their primal power source. If I told a new player they could play seeker, they would probably just stare at me and blink.

On a slightly different tangent, I would like kineticists to be tied into Golarion lore more or a better explanation of what differentiates them from being mistaken as just another spellcaster but more specialized. To your average layperson, sure a sorcerer, a wizard, and a witch may seem the same, but there is a narrative difference. Sorcerers are born with power stemming from their unusual bloodline or an event occurred that significantly altered them like being born on the Day of the Reckoning of Abraxas where the sun was swallowed for a bit and residual energy leaked in from the Outer Planes. Wizards obtained magic through rote memory and a significant amount of studying which gives them a very academic approach to magic. Witches struck a pact, knowingly or unknowingly, with a being of immense power.

Kineticist seemed like they had a really cool class idea with strong mechanics to back it up, but no real thematic reason to exist. And a bit of a strange name for the genre.

[PossibleCabbage]

"Kinetic" is from the Proto-Indo-European root "keie-" meaning "to set in motion", from which comes the sanskrit "cyavate" and the greek "kinētikos" and lots of other words from languages whose real world presence predates the level of technological and cultural development we have on Golarion.

So even though the word has a modern context, the Kineticist is no more an anachronism because of its name than the Mesmerist (as the word "mesmerism" was named for the German Physician Franz Anton Mesmer 1734-1815).

Plus game mechanical terms are not diagetic terminology (no one on Golarion speaks English). We chose the names of things in order to make sense to the real world humans playing the game; there's no Switzerland in Golarion but the Lucerne Hammer really wasn't a problem.

[Kyrone]

Kineticist I don't know, but if Occultist make a comeback I would like a name change of it.

Maybe Antiquarian or something like that.

[Temperans]

Kineticist do have broad lore connections from the wiki:

Kineticist wrote:

Kineticists channel raw elemental power and matter of the Ethereal Plane and into their bodies, manifesting in strange effects known as kinesis. Their powers often confuse others into believing they are monks or sorcerers.

Kinesis is seldom inherited, and powers are often initially exhibited during great stress or trauma. Most must master their abilities on their own, as experienced kineticists are rare. The form of kinesis is often linked to locations of great psychic or elemental power.

The reason the name doesn't sound very "fantasy". Is because the class is inherently linked to Physic powers (which is usually linked to sci-fi) and the other Occult classes (hence why it was released on the Occult book).

Also the class is not just about representing control over elements as would an Elementalist. They channel the direct power of the planes. The 4 elemental planes, the Positive and Negative planes, and the Astral plane all of them linked via the Ethereal Plane to create the different forms of Kineticists.

Then there is the inherent mechanical difference which have some in lore recognition. Kineticts never run out of elemental power to cast the talents, partly thanks to the ability to Gather Power which is very visible and hard to miss. And I am not talking cantrips, Kineticist are able to cast multiple big spells throught the day, when the Sorcer is able to cast only a few.

Then when it comes to "a name like this didnt happen before". 3.5 (which is where pathfinder comes from) was full of diverse name with some being highly fantastical while other were more scientific. Not to mention that Kineticist is a Pathfinder original class, and arguably one of the inspirations for PF2. I don't see why tradition and other systems not related to Paizo should have an effect on the naming.

Similarly, Golarion is not just a fantasy setting. Golarion is full of robots, modern technology, futuristic technology, magictech, ancient techniques, space ships, androids, steampunk elements, lovecraftian horror, multiple different eartly religions and religion/cultural inspired creatures.

Fantasy is too small to fully encompass the Golarion setting.

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* P.S. Starfinder is cannonically part of the Golarion setting.

* * P.S. Golarion is most likely to be recognized as a Science Fantasy setting.

[Odraude]

I kind of agree to a point. Obviously the history of "kinetic" is important, but so is the general tone of it. Whenever I think of kinetic, it conjures up imagines of a more modern tone in my head. Kinetic energy, kinetic weapons, superheroism (like pyrokinesis). The name does feel a little more futuristic, though I could see it fit in stuff ranging from post apocalyptic to dying earth to even planetary romance and space opera.

Since the class does draw some parallels to Avatar the Last Airbender, I could see calling it a Shaper or Bender. I personally like Shaper and feel Bender might be a little too on the nose.

That said, if they keep the name, it's not really a deal breaker for me.

[Lanathar]

I agree on the point of expanding the lore connection. Two paragraphs in a wiki is an extremely generous definition “broad lore connections”.

And definitely more clarity on how they are different from elemental sorcerers (and a class design that doesn’t invalidate those types of characters).

The fact that the wiki says that about them getting confused about sorcerers makes me feel a bit better. I have tried suggesting that whilst waiting for the class to be released elemental sorcerer could be used. You would think I had said something unseemly about people’s mothers based on the general reaction to that statement...

So to some there is a clear difference. But it is not yet codified enough. Especially in the 2E paradigm where elemental sorcerers get all day scaling blasting through cantrips and focus spells before you get to actual spells

I’d like to see more of the monk part mentioned. Apparently Jalmeray is one of the few places they are actually more clearly recognised. This could be explored. Perhaps elemental “stances” of some kind can be brought in

[Henro]

Count me in as being part of the "Occultist-should-become-Antiquarian-come-on-it's-perfect" camp at least. Kineticist I'm not sure about.

[Valantrix1]

No.

[Gorbacz]

I'm here for the moment when the OP discovers that robots with lasors and gatling guns exist in Golarion.

[Temperans]

Lanathar the wiki gives most classes 2-3 paragraphs. Although some, like Wizards, easily have multiple pages.

But I agree more lore would be awesome.

Also the problem is not that Sorcerer can do some things similar to Kineticist. The problem is that many people think that a Sorcerer can replace Kineticits.

The two classes are wildly different mechanically, thematically, and in overall ability. So people get really angry when another person says that Kineticists are just Sorcerers.

Its the equivalent of someone telling a that Ranger fan that its just a Fighter with a Druid Multiclass. Yeah they both have archery and an animal companion. But those are two wildly different ways of achieving the same goal.

[devilbunny]

I'm well aware that gatling guns and lasers exist, what with Numeria, the entirety of Iron Gods, and the Technology Guide from 1e, but it's somewhat localized to a specific region and is certainly not common. You don't see nobles in Brevoy blasting each other with laser pistols nor are there cybernetically augmented individuals running rampant in Varisia. Most of Golarion has little to no sci-fi elements. Your average campaign will not run into that. If there were, this would be like Starfinder or Shadowrun instead. Nor do you see classes with the name Space Marine, Tech-Priest, and Psyker. Kineticist doesn't stand out from a lineup like that. Cleric, Druid, Bard? Maybe, a little bit.

[devilbunny]

Also not a big fan of Shaper or Bender as well as they're pretty reminiscent of Avatar, and, besides that, are quite bland. Would prefer Kineticist still over those two despite the aforementioned sci-fi connations.

[Gorbacz]

So your real problem is that Kineticists aren't confined to Numeria and poison your pristine medieval fantasy with a sci-fi taint.

In that case, I have some bad news.

[Ubertron_X]

Gorbacz wrote:

I'm here for the moment when the OP discovers that robots with lasors and gatling guns exist in Golarion.

There *ARE* no skaven in Reikland!

[Temperans]

When you said Psyker the first thing that came into my mind was the Psychovore style feats from PF1. Where you punch people in such a way that they get confused, lose 1 point of Int and Wis, and you gain temp HP.

Also anything related to the Psychic class.

As for "tech being in a limited area". That is a matter of how much the DM emphises it. But they are spread throughout the setting. The Cyphergate in Riddlepoint, Light of Varisia in Sandpoint, any ruin of Thassilon. Guns and cannons all over the Shackles with its Pirate theme.

Everything is very much dependent on how much the GM knows, and how much they ant to emphasize it.

Magnimar skyline that looks like more than then just fantasy to me.

[devilbunny]

Gorbacz wrote:

So your real problem is that Kineticists aren't confined to Numeria and poison your pristine medieval fantasy with a sci-fi taint.

In that case, I have some bad news.

Absolutely not my problem. The idea of kineticists does belong in a fantasy game. And all over Golarion as well.

[devilbunny]

Temperans wrote:

When you said Psyker the first thing that came into my mind was the Psychovore style feats from PF1. Where you punch people in such a way that they get confused, lose 1 point of Int and Wis, and you gain temp HP.

Also anything related to the Psychic class.

As for "tech being in a limited area". That is a matter of how much the DM emphises it. But they are spread throughout the setting. The Cyphergate in Riddlepoint, Light of Varisia in Sandpoint, any ruin of Thassilon. Guns and cannons all over the Shackles with its Pirate theme.

Everything is very much dependent on how much the GM knows, and how much they ant to emphasize it.

Magnimar skyline that looks like more than then just fantasy to me.

You do raise a valid point regarding tech, but I would argue that Golarion standard guns and cannons like the ones in the Shackles are pretty normal for a late medieval/early Renaissance period. Which is why they don't really qualify as sci-fi to me. Rail guns on the other hand?

Also weren't most of the monuments of ancient Thassilon created by magic/slave labor? I'm running Runelords right now, and that was the impression I was given. Karzoug and the other runelords mostly had enslaved rune giants build the wonders and ruins leftover from that time period like the Irespan in Magnimar.

[thenobledrake]

Gorbacz wrote:

I'm here for the moment when the OP discovers that robots with lasors and gatling guns exist in Golarion.

And that the only difference between "science fiction" an "fantasy" is an entirely artificial distinction that boils down to explanation.

[Wind Chime]

Now that there is a primal spell source it would be hard to argue that kineticist aren't drawing from it.

Also if wizards had named the kineticist they would have called then elementalists.

[Gaulin]

I have no problem with the name kineticist. That being said, when I was looking into 1e Pathfinder to see if it was for me and looked at the class list (around two years ago I think?), nothing really stood out to me. Being semi obsessed with elemental magic/powers, if I saw a class called an elementalist I would have been all over it like stink on crap. I ended up trying to get back into it again after a few months and really dug into every class and only then did I realize what a kineticist was.

[Wind Chime]

I always thought it was funny for a kineticist there was no straight force element for those wanting to play a telekinetic. You can play a pyrokinetic just fine so firestarter is an option but I really wanted my complete Stepen King set and play Carrie as well.

Obviously the shine is occult magic, plain and simple.

[thaX]

My overall impression is that Kineticist was the replacement or parallel to the Warlock in 3.5. We have a PF1 Warlock archtype that is kinda cool, but not anything like the class in the previous iteration.

Renaming the PF2 class to the Warlock may not be possible because of IP, so I am good calling it Kineticist.
Mechanically, though, they would be more of a martial caster than the Con based "caster" that they were before. Gone is the burn mechanic, though the choice of con or str base Key stat would wildly change how to play the class.

Anyway, that is me postulating on the possibilities.

[Temperans]

Thassilon used a lot of slave labor, from Varisians to giants. Runegiants are originally slave Fire giants, carved with magical runes, so they even had some experiments.

Also yes the difference between Sci-fi and fantasy is that sci-fi does not allow magic.

Hence Science Fantasy, where magic is given some sort of pseudo scientific explanation. Like I dont know, "casters manipulate magic using essences to cast spells".

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@Wind Chime

Aether element is force element. A large part of the Aether elemental abilities where forcec this of force that or that. I used Aether + Air elemental to recreate Lucy from Elfen Lied (including her regeneration).

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@thaX

I never understood why so many people look at Kineticist and think Warlock. I mean the only things they have similar is "uses an at will blast".

[TwilightKnight]

Valantrix1 wrote:

No.

LoL! I like it sometimes when we just get a clear, concise answer to a question without all the hype and emotion of a long diatribe. Good for you.

I would love to see the occult classes defined for 2E. Not because I want to play one, but because they are just too different and unique compared to the core rules and I am running a 1E Carrion Crown campaign. I would like to convert to 2E, but I have an occultist/medium in the game and it would be unfair to him to force a change to a wizard, sorcerer, or even a witch when the APG comes out.

[Grankless]

Wind Chime wrote:

I always thought it was funny for a kineticist there was no straight force element for those wanting to play a telekinetic. You can play a pyrokinetic just fine so firestarter is an option but I really wanted my complete Stepen King set and play Carrie as well.

Obviously the shine is occult magic, plain and simple.

Aetherkineticist.

[Halgur]

Gorbacz wrote:

I'm here for the moment when the OP discovers that robots with lasors and gatling guns exist in Golarion.

Elves are aliens. Drops mic.

[AnimatedPaper]

devilbunny wrote:

Now I will admit 4e did also have some bland names. Like seeker. Way too generic, and it's kind of a stretch to relate to their primal power source.

Seeker is a riff on the World of Warcraft Hunter class. Given how much 4e was criticized as being the MMO TTRPG, I can see why they were a bit reluctant to just come out and say that, but it’s pretty obvious when you look at their abilities.

I love the kineticist class, but I agree that the name kind of sucks. Not sure what else would be better though. Potentate maybe? My other problem with the Kineticist class was that they I think they put it in the wrong book, and it should have been included in “Horror Adventures.”

[The Raven Black]

They will keep the name for legacy reasons, though I agree that Shaper would be fitting.

[Ravingdork]

I've always liked "binders" as in, binding the elements of the universe to yourself.

It covers all of the elemental kineticists and is generic enough to allow for the binding of plenty of other esoteric concepts.

[Gorbacz]

Binder is the name of a popular 3.5 class and people would expect something along its lines.

[Ravingdork]

Gorbacz wrote:

Binder is the name of a popular 3.5 class and people would expect something along its lines.

Good thing we're not playing D&D.

[Puna'chong]

It could also upset office supply enthusiasts.

[AnimatedPaper]

Ravingdork wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Binder is the name of a popular 3.5 class and people would expect something along its lines.

Good thing we're not playing D&D.

No but pretending it isn't there seems a bit silly.

Besides, that flavor seems more in line with the medium, shaman, or even witch, all of whom also bind themselves to various entities. No reason Kineticists can't be binding themselves to inner planes of course, but that flavor seems like more of an active choice than the passive channel PF1 kineticists had.

[Lanathar]

Primalist ? Given it will be the source ?
(Especially if Arcanist and Occultist remain things)

I am not saying it needs changing but it could be changed to that...?

[Themetricsystem]

I was thinking perhaps Primal Soul since the elemental flavor is solidly in the Primal toolkit and the nature of the relationship between how they use their own life force to control, conjure, or wield the elemental powers.

[Malk_Content]

AnimatedPaper wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Binder is the name of a popular 3.5 class and people would expect something along its lines.

Good thing we're not playing D&D.

No but pretending it isn't there seems a bit silly.

Besides, that flavor seems more in line with the medium, shaman, or even witch, all of whom also bind themselves to various entities. No reason Kineticists can't be binding themselves to inner planes of course, but that flavor seems like more of an active choice than the passive channel PF1 kineticists had.

I think we can stop bring beholden to things that are 2 decades old.

[AnimatedPaper]

If it accurately evoked the flavor of the class, I would agree. I don't think it does.

[Claxon]

What if we just called it Bender?

It is basically Avatar the Last Air Bender transformed into a class.

[Themetricsystem]

Claxon wrote:

What if we just called it Bender?

It is basically Avatar the Last Air Bender transformed into a class.

While that's true to some extent it also personifies a huge range of comic heroes/villains too. I know I was inspired by X-Men a long time before AtLA came out.

[Zaister]

Bender makes me think of robots again. :)

[Claxon]

Zaister wrote:

Bender makes me think of robots again. :)

Shut up baby, I know it

[Decimus Drake]

Claxon wrote:

What if we just called it Bender?

It is basically Avatar the Last Air Bender transformed into a class.

Fun fact: In the UK "bender" is used as an offensive slur for gay men.

[Rysky]

Gorbacz wrote:

I'm here for the moment when the OP discovers that robots with lasors and gatling guns exist in Golarion.

You forgot chainsaws.

[Rysky]

Can Kineticist be renamed? Eh, maybe.

Is Kineticist too scifi of a word for Golarion/Pathfinder? Absolutely not. Even discounting Numeria and Starfinder we have other sources of high tech either from being advanced or super magic mixing, on Golarion and on other planets in its star system.

And the Kineticist isn't even high-tech, it's the opposite of tech. It pew pews with magic and elements (okay technically you can lazers in there somewhere).

[PossibleCabbage]

I think Kineticist cuts to the core of it- "you cause inanimate things to move".

[glass]

Add me to the list of people who think Kineticist is a perfectly fine name.

_
glass.

[Gaulin]

Another thing I just thought about, in one of the AP's that are out, there is a kineticist. So it's too late anyway.

[TheGoofyGE3K]

Which AP?

Also, kinesist could work as an alternate name

[PossibleCabbage]

I mean, the odds of the Kineticist coming back were always pretty good since the class is Mark Seifter's creation and he got a significant promotion between editions.

[generaltwig]

I agree with OP. For me, “kineticist” has the wrong connotations and feel. It’s also not obvious from the name what fantasy (or play style) it evokes. My personal preference would be Elementalist. People are familiar with that name from CRPGs and know it means they’ll be manipulating and blasting elements. It’s evocative and broad enough to encompass tons of elemental “paths”