Michael Talley 759 wrote: I have found, if the group optimizes and you want slightly harder encounters. the best idea is to add +1 the APL for every two Optimized players.
As for Boss fights, The BBEG should be optimized. Life Or Death final battles are awesome. But as said before, Mini-bosses shouldn't be. They should be scary but not optimized.
Learned that lesson when I did a Evil Wererat Cleric[Champion] of Calistria/Oracle of Bones with the trickery Domain and her AOE Negative Energy Bleed Burst. The group honestly thought with how powerful she was, that she was the BBEG, once they found out she wasn't and that she was answering to someone else, the entire group wanted to go work for the BBEG out of fear to an Unknown.
Now that is funny, Thanks GM but we decided to join the other side as they are to powerful.
TriOmegaZero wrote: I give the creature name and type on the first success. Information for beating the DC comes from most common to less common as successes pile up. None of this has anything to do with research ahead of time. Great but if they are brand new to the area, and there has never been any information about them, or their classes and the race is new to the area as well, where does the information come from Magic?
There are plenty of places on a planet where that information has not reach. So when the players use a Feat, Feature, Ability what ever it will be the first time they have ever seen or heard of it. There are always things a roll once in combat cannot do.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
GotAFarmYet? wrote: TriOmegaZero wrote: I give the creature name and type on the first success. Information for beating the DC comes from most common to less common as successes pile up. None of this has anything to do with research ahead of time. Great but if they are brand new to the area, and there has never been any information about them, or their classes and the race is new to the area as well, where does the information come from Magic? The same handwaved backstory that everything else comes from. When I have run characters against something so unique that it can't have been mentioned in a text the character read before, I give the knowledge through observation rather than memory. "You judge that by the slick gleaming skin of the creature it has an acidic slime ability similiar to..."
If the character can't learn anything, the roll shouldn't even be allowed.
"You judge that by the slick gleaming skin of the creature it has an acidic slime ability similiar to..."
reword it as when it stuck you, you noticed the slick gleaming skin of the creature damaged you with a acid similar to...
and you don't have to roll, you did learn the hard way though.
And reread your statement, you gave them knowledge through observation by triggering a memory of something they have seen before, or heard about.
Yup, it is something they saw or research before, and they still might not know how to deal with it, does washing it off with water help or make it worse, can it only be evaporated by fire. Knowledge is key and the more you know before the fight the better. It could have also been "we know the creature has a acid skin similar to this... lets prepare some neutralize acid spells to help us in combating it."
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When I build enemies, especially named NPC's in AP's, I go so far as to filling out their skill ranks. And a lot of times when I gives class levels to monsters, I will even reverse engineer the monsters to find out what class skills their type has, and how many skills per HD they get, and how many ranks they have in the skills they are stat'ed with. Sometimes, if I am feeling particularly lazy, I just figure out how many skills per level and their Intelligence modifier, pick that many skills, and just max them out for the HD/levels... but more often than not, I fully go through the skills on enemies I build.
Why? I don't know, honestly. I think that it builds a certain amount of depth and detail. Enemies that fight smart are more fun. Encounters that last more than three rounds are more fun.
The only way to get better is to fight a better opponent...
VoodistMonk,
I do to as it adds to the story and background for the character, but do take Michael Talley said to heart as it can be pretty easy to do.
VoodistMonk wrote: When I build enemies, especially named NPC's in AP's, I go so far as to filling out their skill ranks. And a lot of times when I gives class levels to monsters, I will even reverse engineer the monsters to find out what class skills their type has, and how many skills per HD they get, and how many ranks they have in the skills they are stat'ed with. Sometimes, if I am feeling particularly lazy, I just figure out how many skills per level and their Intelligence modifier, pick that many skills, and just max them out for the HD/levels... but more often than not, I fully go through the skills on enemies I build.
Why? I don't know, honestly. I think that it builds a certain amount of depth and detail. Enemies that fight smart are more fun. Encounters that last more than three rounds are more fun.
The only way to get better is to fight a better opponent...
I do the same thing. But it's enjoyable for me, honestly.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
GotAFarmYet? wrote: "You judge that by the slick gleaming skin of the creature it has an acidic slime ability similiar to..."
reword it as when it stuck you, you noticed the slick gleaming skin of the creature damaged you with a acid similar to...
and you don't have to roll, you did learn the hard way though.
What about when they succeed at a Knowledge roll? Before they’ve even been hit?
I redo monsters all the time for my games. Now I don't fill in all the details necessary if the monster were a PC, but its not too hard to slap on extra stats.
Take a troll. Give it two levels of fighter, thats +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2 to its stat line. Recalculate all of those. I often nudge odd numbers down or up to the next bonus as appropriate. Check its new HD, give it some new feats, swap out some old feats. Add skills. If you want to add magic items, cheat and use the Automatic Bonus Progression list to figure out what it might have on it.
Takes like a half an hour tops. PCs can always attempt a knowledge check upon seeing a creature to figure out if it looks meaner than usual.
But realistically, you don't waste your players time. Fights they have should be worth the extra time combat takes. If you see a perfect monster but its too weak, just spice it up.
GotAFarmYet? wrote: Michael Talley 759 wrote: I have found, if the group optimizes and you want slightly harder encounters. the best idea is to add +1 the APL for every two Optimized players.
As for Boss fights, The BBEG should be optimized. Life Or Death final battles are awesome. But as said before, Mini-bosses shouldn't be. They should be scary but not optimized.
Learned that lesson when I did a Evil Wererat Cleric[Champion] of Calistria/Oracle of Bones with the trickery Domain and her AOE Negative Energy Bleed Burst. The group honestly thought with how powerful she was, that she was the BBEG, once they found out she wasn't and that she was answering to someone else, the entire group wanted to go work for the BBEG out of fear to an Unknown.
Now that is funny, Thanks GM but we decided to join the other side as they are to powerful.
It was quite amusing indeed, the campaign was based on War of the Crown with the First Prince having been exiled because he was a variant Dhampir
and the populace was told he had died tragically.
He came back 80 years later his father was not doing well with the golden orchid elixir, his exile being the school of magic and came back with friends as long lived as himself.
The Were-Rat worked for a Tiefling Illusionist that was running a high-end house of Ill-repute. Ironically the group teamed up with the "elf" (Tiefling using Disguise Self) to protect her from foul villains as she secretly turned them against her bosses enemies (The Kingdom and the Princess) It was once they found out (around level 9-10 and equal in power to the Tiefling) They joined her fully in bringing the Prince into power over the kingdom against his sister.
From this I learned, don't Optimize everyone. Just the lieutenant's and the Boss themselves (whom should be Optimized the most)
The Were-rat in comparison was a CR 6 (Cleric5/Oracle1) group was around Level 4
TriOmegaZero wrote: GotAFarmYet? wrote: "You judge that by the slick gleaming skin of the creature it has an acidic slime ability similiar to..."
reword it as when it stuck you, you noticed the slick gleaming skin of the creature damaged you with a acid similar to...
and you don't have to roll, you did learn the hard way though.
What about when they succeed at a Knowledge roll? Before they’ve even been hit? Last one, as I think we are distracting too much from the main topic at this point.
So they learn it is a acid, but the type, strength, treatment all will be outside of the roll and could remain so long after combat. Similar to and is are very different. You might know its an acid because it dripped on the ground and you saw it happen before the fight. What happens if you are ambushed and had no time to observe it?
Healing might slow it but doesn't cure it as a example. Now it all comes back to the town you started at, you should have spent time listening and looking into to rumors and stories about the monster and its abilities, took the time to see if there was a cure for special attacks and gotten ready before going in. All the knowledge checks could have been carried out long before combat. Also if they missed anything the old doctor in town might have heard of a cure for the acid, or the loud mouth at the bar who loves rumors and stories might have heard the answer. So many ways to learn and know before you get there. You can also resolve the issue after combat and seeking treatment. Reducing the need for rolls also speeds up game play (Quixote stay away from that one for me, please).
So if they researched it out before they would not need to roll and could have seen traces of what they learned on the way to it, melted trees leaves for example, to show acid is on the skin. The half eaten rabbit caucus told you it was fast and agile and move through rough overgrown wilderness terrain. So many ways to get them information without waiting for combat or actual sight to gain information. It can also be allot more fun as the sour smelling rabbit corps is killing the flies in the air that the ranger found.
Also checks alone will not tell you everything Take the Troll from above, you know its a troll and this works for killing them. Your description tells them it has been around for awhile and might be tougher than average, but they will be surprised when it uses a extra attack.
Back on topic:
Trying to make the game more than the just rolls, is the Job of the GM. Anything you can do to the background story, location stories, local knowledge gathering helps paint a better campaign. Making unique villains/monsters can be a part of that as well. Make sure you are staying within your parties and players limits.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
That sounds like nothing in the Knowledge rules, nor have you answered the question.
If it need be stated explicitly, what happens when a character rolls a Knowledge check for a creature that has not been foreshadowed earlier in the session?
Talley me banana: I agree with you that boss fights should be optimized. I do that now already. That ends up being where a lot of my unique, reskinned monsters go too - like the one tatzlwyrm that had a higher Int than most, had an actual breath weapon instead of the standard weak poison, but the breath weapon still had to be used on foes it was grappling with (5' radius).
I'm kinda more thinking about the minion types. Like I said upthread, I'm not going to get rid of those easy cakewalk fights; I WANT my players to feel like superheroes once in a while. If I'm going to have an "average" fight though I want it to feel like less of a speed bump and more like one step through a gauntlet.
Also, re: the discussion of Knowledge checks by Omega Man and Farmy McFarmington - everyone should run their games however they want, but what works for me is the axiom "what's good for the goose is good for the gander."
Essentially if the PCs can take 6 days worth of Downtime crafting consumables and other resources while learning the entire history of a dungeon, it's occupants, and scout the surrounding area, the BBEG can too, within their lower resources and skill levels that is. This is why I often optimize at least one NPC, either in the dungeon or in the area NEAR the dungeon, with levels of a spellcasting class or Adept as well as one or more Item Creation feat. Heck, in a recent adventure featuring mites I wrote for low levels I concocted a whole system called Nachtmoot where different mite Traditions (what I call mite tribes in my games) meet up to trade goods, magic items and such.
Taken a step further, if the PCs in my games can ID aspects of a monster, even a Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid, from a footprint or signs in the wild, so can the villain; if the PCs can run across a heavily armored foe, bizarre outsider, and such and ID them using a Knowledge check, so can the villain.
PCs are "unique monsters" for Knowledge checks, so already they're a DC 15 base to ID. If the villain ID's them, they learn similar info to that which I'd offer to a player in the same situation. If the villain has already done all kinds of Diplomacy/Gather Info checks on the characters or has otherwise scouted them, I'll add Circumstance bonuses or reduce the base DC back down to 10 for the villain's Knowledge check.
Ironically this is yet another argument I gave my players about optimization, both of bosses as well as minions. If the characters have existed in an area known to the villain for a significant time AND have been researched by said villain, the boss will prepare themselves and their minions for any eventual confrontation with the PCs.
You wouldn't be mad at Lex Luthor for making a Kryptonite-powered battle suit and even some Kryptonite-enhanced robots to keep himself from being apprehended by Superman, why should it be any different for, say, a powerful, evil druid, who has held dominion over several square miles of forested swamp for decades, has groups of gnolls and corrupt wood giants and has had the PCs traipsing around their area for weeks disrupting things?
One last thing, about villains, knowledge checks, motivation for optimization and all of that: consider your villain or villain's off-screen longevity. How long has your evil dragon lived around here? How long have the goblins been in their lair, or have the qlippoths held their planar gate, and so on?
Now think... HOW did they survive this long BEFORE the characters arrived?
Just consider an evil Druid 4 as a final boss against a group of level 1 PCs. Now, if they JUST BECAME a level 4 druid then fine, random encounter, villain isn't optimized, chips fall where they may. If, however, the evil druid has been level 4 for a while, look at the spells they have access to: Calm Animals (affecting at least 6 HD per casting), Charm Animal, Commune with Birds, Expeditious Construction/Excavation, Pass Without Trace, and Speak with Animals, just at level 1. Combine all of that with just a few WEEKS of Downtime that the druid may have survived and dominated in their current environment, as well as giving them a few ranks in Handle Animal, it would NOT be much of a stretch to say that:
1. Birds and animals have told them lots of general info about the area
2. Along with their Animal Companion (if still a class feature for this villain), they could have up to 6 HD worth of trained animal minions; spies, guards, and so on
3. They've excavated several 5' deep pits, surrounding these with thick hummocks of earthen walls, and topped these with crude roofs to create simple hut structures; not a gauntlet for defense but PLENTY of cover wherever the druid plans to make their lair
Now you can cast a few spells over the course of 2 hours and still spend 8 hours per day of Downtime using a Craft or Profession skill. If this villain is a druid, has weeks of Downtime and isn't ALWAYS building roofs or training animals everyday, a set of leather barding for an animal minion of Small size would take a villain with Craft: Leather +10 about half a week, or 3-4 days, to make.
Is it SO hard to think that this villain, just after a few WEEKS, would have animal guards, a couple wearing leather barding, in a well-patrolled area of the wilderness buttressed by a number of stands of Cover? They might have also thickened the flora in the area to make it even more difficult to remove them. Not to mention their own personal combat gear, their Animal Companion, and any CR 1/3 minions in the area they might've been able to either dominate or coerce into helping them.
And that's just after weeks.
What if your villain's been there months, or years? If your villain is either not intelligent enough, not mobile enough, or doesn't have the resources to enhance/optimize their situation then fine, but if the BBEG or their minions are CAPABLE of such things... WHY wouldn't they?
And yes, I know: maybe they're lazy, or fighting with other foes besides the PCs, or what not. If that works in your stories or your games, that is fine and I want you to be happy with your stuff. I'm just saying, this how I think when running mine is all.
Scavion wrote: Strange, I've seen a LOT of fiction where there are easy conflicts. Typically, they're used to show how far they have come since the start of their journey or a well executed plan. I'm a big fan of high fantasy books rather than gritty fantasy but I don't mind the latter either. Also my goblin bias is showing, but goblins are 100x deadlier than wolves. Im not saying there isn't any. I'm saying that (in my opinion, obviously, as there are no facts in such discussions) the best works of the higher quality seem to favor heroes desperately struggling in adverse conditions, or against vastly superior foes.
Also, those goblins would need to be in quite the unique situation to rival the threat of a dozen dire wolves.
I don't know what you guys are talking about. Hordes of hapless flunkies are a staple of the action genre.
To speak of "optimizing" enemies implies finding clever ways to increase their killing power without increasing their CR.
"Ha! I'll give this Wraith the Young template! That way it will be harder to hit, while still being just as deadly in combat, and I can reduce its CR by 1, thus denying my players the XP they'll think they deserve, assuming they survive at all!"
This kind of thing is silly. I can give or deny my players all the XP I want. CR is just a guideline to me.
Finding ways to make encounters more unique and interesting, on the other hand, is a good idea. Maybe one of the orcs is a Bard, and another is up on a high ledge throwing down nets.
(But I can no longer be bothered to use the rules for adding class levels. If I want an orc Bard, I'll probably just say that as long as this one is alive, all the orcs get +2 to attack/damage, and it can cast one bardic spell of my choice, and it gets a few more HP if it will die too fast otherwise. That way I can turn a bland encounter into an interesting one with about one minute of prep time.)
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Matthew Downie wrote:
(But I can no longer be bothered to use the rules for adding class levels. If I want an orc Bard, I'll probably just say that as long as this one is alive, all the orcs get +2 to attack/damage, and it can cast one bardic spell of my choice, and it gets a few more HP if it will die too fast otherwise. That way I can turn a bland encounter into an interesting one with about one minute of prep time.)
I've used to meticulously study all those 3 classes + 1 PrC NPCs that populate Paizo APs to analyse just how exactly do all their abilities, write them down, do an Excel sheet with all buffs, prepare tactics and spend 1h working on each NPC.
Only to see them die in 2 rounds, because rokkit tag PF1 combats are.
I've given up bothering with that as well and these days run the NPCs by eyeballing the stats, giving them 2-3 cool abilities, maybe a spell or two, they're done.
Matthew Downie wrote: To speak of "optimizing" enemies implies finding clever ways to increase their killing power without increasing their CR.
When I do it it's usually because I look and the players capabilities vs the Monster who's CR is supposed to be2-3 CR higher than the party and his flunkys that are supposed to be 4 CR lower than the party and think "the PCs are going to wade through them without breaking a sweat unless they have one of their brainfart days, and even then all that'd do is make them break a light sweat if they roll badly."
Often it's stuff like "The PCs can fly and the monster is unable to touch them".
And of course module designers love their Cleave/Great Cleave and Vital Strike chains with power attack (roll eyes).
Which do f-all unless the monsters roll crits, and then there's just a chance a PC might go down/die.
I "optimise" to get the good guys to actually require the amount of effort from the murder hobos known as PCs to actually meet the CR value of the encounter.
(I admit that I'm been a bit harsh on my current group who despite been mostly evil often make a real effort to recruit or negotiate with the NPCS - although in one case that negotiation was PC peels off his skin and say "I'm going to kill you, skin you and wear your skin, but if you tell us everything we want to know I'll do it in that order")
Stephen Ede wrote: When I do it it's usually because I look and the players capabilities vs the Monster who's CR is supposed to be2-3 CR higher than the party and his flunkys that are supposed to be 4 CR lower than the party and think "the PCs are going to wade through them without breaking a sweat My first instinct in this situation would be to replace the mooks with higher CR enemies, or increase the number of them, or have the villain be riding a dragon. Would you count that as "optimizing"?
Matthew Downie wrote: Stephen Ede wrote: When I do it it's usually because I look and the players capabilities vs the Monster who's CR is supposed to be2-3 CR higher than the party and his flunkys that are supposed to be 4 CR lower than the party and think "the PCs are going to wade through them without breaking a sweat My first instinct in this situation would be to replace the mooks with higher CR enemies, or increase the number of them, or have the villain be riding a dragon. Would you count that as "optimizing"? LOL...
I guess it depends on the age and how well you play a dragon. In my games if the main villain was riding an adult dragon and met the party out in the open. Well, we would be having a new game starting in about an hour once everyone was done creating new characters.
A dragon by itself is a considered a Floor Boss, so No I would not call that Optimizing. Unless they were all really high level I would say what Hudson said "Game over man"
A dragon "by itself" tends to die in one to two rounds to an optimized party. Unless it's so high level they can't do that, in which case it will probably kill the party in about four rounds.
Pathfinder provides stats for about 400 different dragons. There's probably at least one that's an appropriate challenge (as part of a balanced encounter) for a party of any given level. Kobold chief riding on a Tatzlwyrm, for example?
Matthew Downie wrote: A dragon "by itself" tends to die in one to two rounds to an optimized party. Unless it's so high level they can't do that, in which case it will probably kill the party in about four rounds.
Pathfinder provides stats for about 400 different dragons. There's probably at least one that's an appropriate challenge (as part of a balanced encounter) for a party of any given level. Kobold chief riding on a Tatzlwyrm, for example?
In a ironic way you just hit the issue with Pathfinders, and why everything now needs to be optimized. It looks like about a quarter are only Dragon age brackets. Either way its still over 300 dragons, that enough to start their own planet and they probably should.
So basically all the players started to optimized to make a Dragon meaningless. So GMs, started to optimize villains and monster to catch up.
So now we are back at play without all the expansions, or at least limit them. Next the GM has to be good a quick optimization, since when has playing a game become so much work?
GotAFarmYet? wrote: since when has playing a game become so much work? Since the dawn of tabletop RPGs
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
I'd say since 2000. 3/3.5/PF1 is notorious for just how crazy wild the PC power level can get depending on the level of system mastery a player has, a lot of other fantasy RPGs (5e, PF2, Dungeon World, Shadow of the Demon Lord to name a few) don't have this issue, or have it to a significantly lesser degree.
PF1 basically the "the more splatbooks and guides you analyse the easier it will be for you to domiate the game" edition. It's a selling point for some, loathed downside for others.
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