GotAFarmYet?'s page

So still trying to work it all out.

So here we go again...
Combat, while it still uses a second as a time measurement, it is indirectly used. If you change the time scale the only thing that changes is the total distance you will move.
Expertise are still skills, just ones set to be used directly in combat. For now the things like grappling and throwing still need to be to be added. Those will fall under styles and be explained later in more detail.

Physical Strain added for melee fighters to slowly weaken their strike rolls
Mental Strain for casters, the more spells and larger spells used will effect the DC of the next spell. Mental wounds from casting Large spells add to effect the DC of casting until resting for a night removes them.

This one is still a D20 system.
The round is simply once around the table, and a turn is what you do in the round. Actions can be used before or after your turn for defense, but will effect you on your turn, coming or next.

The Roll With I am still unsure of?
Should it just be a better way to help avoid a blow
Reduce the damage of the blow
Do both

Also included the larger file full of reference notes and definitions to make it to the smaller scale and easier to implement

The two files:
Reference File
Combat how it works

what you are experiencing in DnD/PF1 turns is the Game Conceit of single sequential turns. Sure the game says that one turn is a quantized unit of time (AD&D) but it isn't done that way in actual play. It is a conceit as it is done to organize players into sequential turns and lend a sense of flow to the game. Same with Intitative.

This has been known for 30+ years...

Thanks for a honest reply.

We tried to limit table talk, as a fist attempt. Doesn't really work as players interests will wane during combat. It did force them to get more creative to avoid combat so not all bad.

If you want to enforce quantized time, then have a Start, everyone goes and nothing resolves until the first guy is up again, that's the End and things like damage and death apply, then next turn starts with first guy going again.

Tried that to it basically became a write it down and reveal your actions. The question came up are we playing a RPG or Clue?

Decreasing the time period will have big impacts as you drive the model towards instability by oversampling and exposing the unrealistic assumptions inherent in statistical averaging (AD&D) or the granularity has become too fine and exposes the unrealistic rules (PF1) breaking acceptability/believeability. Remember it is just a model to meet a somewhat acceptable common experience. It is not physically accurate nor precise.

I would not call moving it down to the second oversampling. The situation is not unstable by any means but it does force a change in pace and thinking. It does changes things by forcing more times around the table to do certain things, spells for instance. You tend to play it with more strategic planing on where you will be in several of your turns rather than in this big block of things.

So why move it to a second your last line is the reason: "Remember, it is just a model to meet a somewhat acceptable common experience". We also went with actions per second to cover the cost to move and allow for faster combat. How you spent your actions was up to you; 3 attacks, a move attack and move, etc.

Did it cause issues. YES!
1 . Movement how to simplify it. The first answer was add a Speed Attribute. This actually fixed all issues, but created one as well. Maps were scaled to 5' to a grid. Not an issue in todays day and age where programs to edit the maps exist.
2. Was Spell casting, how long should it take to cast a spell?

So the second model was used with a few parameters:
30' movement allowed for a 5/10/15 per second. You hustled a x2 and ran at x3, those were the rules from the book so it worked out.
to keep it simple the weight you carried would slow the movement, based on carrying capacity (Light/Medium/Heavy).
if in light or less 15', 5 feet per action spent as a move.
if in medium 10', it would take 3 moves to the full 10' and 2 to move the 5'. You are basically over coming your own inertia
If in the Heavy 5', it takes all 3 actions to move 5'. You are basically over coming your own inertia

Issue was spells, we tried a 3 seconds, 2 seconds, 1 seconds breaking down a round.
1 action was the equal to 3 seconds in the old system.
2 actions was the equal to 5 seconds in the old system.
3 actions was equal to 6 seconds, 1 round, or melee round, in the old system.

works ok, in a rotations around the table the melee group would kill everything close, and the Mages would attack the far because everything was dead that was up close.Sucked to be a mage in close combat but that did not really change. The next issue was the melee crew killing every thing, so a -5 for every consecutive second you fight was applied. You recovered the penalty at your BAB table number per second of rest. Most of the melee crew would hen start to cycle their attacks to every other second or every two seconds to keep their strike numbers higher. The only thing the melee crew did not like about this was when the Wiz was being a pain they had troubles letting the monsters through to attack him.
Eventually the idea of a Quick Cast Spell came into play. You got your INT modifier as the number of spell slot you could set to quick cast, I preferred total spell levels but was out voted (I was the Wizard).
As usual to make improvements we finally ended with the current system which is basically becoming its own game.

I have the Champions game, second edition first printing.

Funny part is it was simple
Move first, then action. Everyone was it takes to long and I don't want to go around the table that often. Ok.

Next try Moving was part of the action you had 3 actions, and could spend it on a 1/3 move or an action. Everyone was its not complex enough I can do more than that. I want to be able to skills, feats, have special moves. Ok.

Third try
Removed the SPD Attribute, because I doubt everyone wanted to sub-divide their maps to 1 foot increments.
Made the second into 10 sub units. Each type of action took up from 1-10 of the phases. When what you wanted to do equaled 10 or would go above it your turn ended. Very few comments on this one.

Forth version placed all the PF stuff back in. Everyone this is too complicated, yet it is no more complicated than PF1 or AD&D (and its future versions), just the time scale changed. It was not to make it more realistic, but to over come a few issues when dealing with 6 second blocks of time.

The issue with 6 second blocks is that they are not simultaneous 6 second blocks like they should be. The next person always plays off of the last players block that effected what they were doing. So at the end of the Round you have not covered 6 seconds but more in the way of 18-30.

Same issue with spells very few did the work that was needed to properly make up new spells in balanced with the older ones. I suggested just use caster levels with a 1d6 per level or active effect. If the spell needed a 1d12 they it took two caster levels. You would not believe the grief I got from that suggestion.

Game Balance is a joke as each new spell and class was way ore powerful than a core class and mostly just the most power features of 2-3 classes put together, yeah that is balanced. PF 2 came close with the new start and way of doing things. Then they just got lazy and piled on the same over powered classes, spells and features. Yes, I know time and budgets rule the world. So, here I am working out something that still work with a d20 has the resolution to avoid the stacking of time. but using simultaneous time.

It was a simple 3 action system you could attack up to 3 times or move up to 3 with any combination between. You could tack on as much complexity or remove it. Left in the new spell approach because it opened spells up to being balanced. The movement was simple 1 equaled Walking and all 3 was running.

Actully, they don't spread out in flight, and land in a small enough space to only hit one target.

Was answered above.

Dot (for later)

.

In the past when I've experimented with similar mechanics (and played GURPS), I've felt that combat takes even longer than it already does. But I've also never really loved the d20 Initiative-and-turn system -- Second Edition of the 90s was Better! So I'm enthusiastic about really reading this Thread when I have the time.

.

Still, the best, most fun & even realistic way to do combat is burn the g.d. Battlemat into annihilation, sell all your minis, and play in 'theater-of-the-mind.'

Thank You very much look forward to the comments. Played the GURPs system as well. From Peter Jackson Games by far my favorite was Car Wars. We made Characters for it and turned it into a Gangster Street Fight or who would control the hood.

D20 and follow the chart. Highest d20 sets the starting point and goes around the table. We normally had eight players so we would all sit and roll 2d8 to randomly play the monsters turns at those points, along with the GMs' position and just go clockwise around the table. Half the time we would let the players that came before the monsters slot roll for the monsters. We had the one guy who always rolled really well, no one wanted to sit to his left on those days.

yes, a fighter can move attack move, with a feat, again it's already in the rules, whether you consider it a good answer or not is irrelevant to me. If it already exists in the game, I see little need to replace it. Especially with something more complicated

That is funny,

Irrelevant?
Well lets leave it as more of a difference of opinion, that leaves it open to discussion, and not a argument. Just because it is in the rules doesn't mean it will fit the setting, theme, and context the game is being run in. You can have a gunslinger in the rules, but in a game with no firearms it is irrelevant as a rule. There are things that exist in the game that are left overs from older versions, that don't fit n the current system. They are ignored or not used yet if I was in your game and could us it to my advantage, would it be allowed if it did not fit your context.

Yes, I knew a fighter could do that with a feat, the question is why does he need that feat. It is an action anyone can do in a fight, but accelerating to full speed would not be possible well doing it. Just because it is in the rules doesn't make it a good rule.

How can you "not do something in a 6 second round"? because an attack is more than just a single sword swing, it's a feint a parry an attack and a counter attack. A spell, takes time to gather energy, to say the incantation and to wave the hands, it's not a single poof and it's done.

That is an assumption and a justification. I used the same argument in the past as an excuse to protect a familiar system. Truth is we don't know what they are doing. As far as it is known a water cooler could appear and they are talking bout about the latest gladiator battle. Also take a careful look at that system we say this is all happening in 6 seconds but in truth it is anything but that. This person does their 6 seconds attacking and moving. They kill a target and then moves to a position that blocks the archer. One the next turn this guy goes "Oh, enemy X is dead, so I will attack Y". The Archer now can pick another target or move to get an angle to attack his original target, with a penalty because of the allies move. The current system is a progression of 6 second blocks that we once finished just call it a single block. It was all in response to what was done by the person who had the 6 second block before you.

The rules in any game are simply guide lines, and as guides they are subject to change to allow for exceptions. This is why the seconds became important. It was not covered well using blocks of time with assumptions that don't always hold up. I am not saying this will work for you, as It does require a certain mind set to use. It also requires pacing of combat and at first it has to be forced until the players and you get use to it. You do have to get use to it because you are thinking in terms outside those that you are use to or familiar with.

As for the increase in time. It is usually when we are fighting smaller numbers and get more detailed in what we are doing that causes the increase. When the numbers we face are large it actually has the opposite and decreases the time. Also combat for use was usually done under 15 minutes so it going up to 20 with a much more wild results was fine for us. Again that was with our group what happens with anyone else is unknown as far as I know your time in combat could drop by half.

While your combat system may seem more realistic, it's certainly more complicated. one of the beauties of D&D (aside from being able to customize it) is that it was simple. the reason we play the 6 second round the way we do, is to keep it simple, and it's more representational of the sum of everything you did in those 1 second increments. Sure, some realism might get lost, but as mentioned, casting a spell from around the corner. you start the round and end the round mostly out of sight, you can cast your spell, yet you can be shot. there's no 3 actions about it, the net result of you stepping out, casting a spell and stepping back, is that you have cover, +2 to your AC. it doesn't matter when in the round you do this, or when in the round the archer goes, the archer can shoot you, without a readied action etc. same net effect - but a simpler system.

As stated above it is impossible to say it is more complex just less familiar. More Realistic, maybe it is really just different, but requires a fast pace be kept. The pace is possible because of the limited things you can do, or things that are broken over time. Customizing it is the same you can keep, remove or change anything you want. As for which is the more flexible system, I don't know. Going by seconds allows for many things and can hamper others that a Block of time handles better. The second system does have a flaw and that requires honesty from the players and GM to follow through with their plan. If fighter X and Y were both attacking villain B. If X kills B and Y was planning on attack too, Y should continue the attack on B.

GotAFarmYet? wrote:

One other reason was the current system allows a Mage to step out fire a spell and step back into cover. While a Archer waiting for them to step out cannot fire an arrow at them.

Yup, according to the rules the mage can dance around for 4 seconds without worry and then dive back into cover.

Yes, I know what come next which is a bunch of people going well we use house rule blah, blah, blah to cover for it.

So why not just adjust the rules to move timing down and remove the issues?
It is still a house rule, but covers more than 8-9 adjustment rules you will have to add.

Readied Actions is the actual rule to fire at someone who pops his head out to cast a spell. but the caster would need 2 move actions to step out and step back, so not legal. Otherwise the caster is casting from cover and has an AC bonus.

so yeah, covered by the rules with no house rule.

My big issue with this proposed system is that you have to go around the table 6 times as often to do the same amount of combat. Bleh...

Ah! good, a reply.

So you stepping out firing off a spell and moving make as 3 separate actions, good so do I. In many games 3 actions are what you get.
Now explain how they cannot do that in a 6 second round. "Because it is in the rules" will not be a good answer. The rules don't cover everything or we would not need home brew rules. Can a fighter move attack and move?

What happens if the Mages target was the person with the readied action, or they got an arrow shot at them when they were just standing there?
order of play:
Player X I fire at the idiot standing there waiting to shoot at the mage, Its a Hit and he takes 10 damage.
Mage, I step out fire my spell at the same idiot.
Idiot, Oh, look I can take my ready shot event though I was last on initiative, and was shot with an arrow before the Mage left cover.

Doesn't really work.

Now lets look at the last line:
And the answer is not really, you still have the concept of the round in your head. We do less actions every time it becomes our turn, nothing else has changed. You are simply going around the table until combat ends in both cases. We found the number of time going round the table only increased by 17% and in some cases is less.

Also the slide show I posted as an example was before we streamlined the process some. I was lazy and copied that from a development forum we are also discussing this in. Looks more like this now.

How it works:
1. Beginning of the second. GM: “Ok. Show of hands Who is moving or doing a facing change?”
“We have these players and monsters 4 and 9 for me”. Let the list keeper mark them down.
2. Run the order from last to first from the rolled initiative, they then make their 5’ Move or Facing Change. When done “Ok, Action!”.
3. Start the Action Phase and run it from First to last in order of Initiative.
You can delay your turn until someone else with a lower initiative moves as a declaration. If the targeted doesn’t act, then neither will you. This does NOT change the order of initiative in the next second.
That’s it! The rest is to try to keep the pace as fast as possible.

Oh, and lastly I have been told told I come across as angry by the way i type. I try to keep it short and to the point without full explaining it.

I will apologize for that now. I take the information seriously as I am trying to make this a better way. Changes and why this did not work, or it being broken into parts and treated harsh doesn't bother me.
The more parts of it that get abused, is a test for what to look at to improve.

One other reason was the current system allows a Mage to step out fire a spell and step back into cover. While a Archer waiting for them to step out cannot fire an arrow at them.

Yup, according to the rules the mage can dance around for 4 seconds without worry and then dive back into cover.

Yes, I know what come next which is a bunch of people going well we use house rule blah, blah, blah to cover for it.

So why not just adjust the rules to move timing down and remove the issues?
It is still a house rule, but covers more than 8-9 adjustment rules you will have to add.

What kept happening was the limitations with the current turn system was that monsters could attack past the front line. The other issue was players being in the way of their teammates. This would all happen from a Movement system with initiative, not allowing people to play the in between moments.

If you increase the resolution on time this would not happen. It was that poor representation of movement that would allow situations to happen that shouldn't. Moving it to a second system fixes that. The actual rolls of combat doesn't really change that much.

This is before we streamlined the system posted in the post above.
Its a bit long to read but it is an example that shows how a second based encounter allows a much more clear advantage to the current system you see in D&D, and Pathfinders as a few other TTRPGs'

You took on a request to patrol this area and kill any monsters you come across. The payment is based on monster type and per kill with proof. The secondary mission you also took was a rookie party was last seen heading here and have disappeared.

Slide 1
The Ranger notices the 8 Orcs are search the area ahead of him and slowly head to his right. They seem to be checking the bushes while following a path. They are being noisy and while searching they are not activitly checking their surroundings. To you it looks like they are searching for something. You can see an area where your group can get to quickly and queitly that they will pass close to.

Slide 2
Positioning yourselves you wait for them to come to you. Your Spirit Arts inform you that there are 2 people about a 100 yards farther to the right and it appears that Orcs are searching for them. From where you are you can see traces of their path to confim that they are at least on that trail. The good news is that they will be passing within your parties strike range and be at the closest point 30-40 feet from you in about a 1/4 of a minute.
The leader Decides to take them at their current spot to buy time for the Ranger to slowly work them down well the cleric and fighter do a controlled push towards them. He will Cast a Fire spell on the trailing targets. Casting it well staying concealed to hopefully also cause some confussion to them.

Slide 3 (Start of the Clock)
The Charge of the Heavy Armored Duo, well screaming to attract the Orcs Advance 5' (1/2 max Spd). All the Orcs look at them.
The Mage Starts to cast a Created spell releasing the energy needed for a second level spell, at a 3rd level caster.
The range steps to the left and using the cover of a tree fires at a trailing a Trailing Orc 6. Rolls a hit and 5 points of damage
Cleric Converts Standard Action into an Immediate action.

Slide 4
Your side has a advantage to initiative and theirs has a straight roll.
Order was:
Fighter
Cleric
Orc 2
Orc 5
Orc 1
Orc 4
Orc 3
Ranger
Mage
Orc 6

Movement Phase:
Orc 6 none
Mage None
Ranger None
Orc 3 Charges forward
Orc 4 None
Orc 1 Charges Forward
Orc 5 Charges Forward
Orc 2 follows 5
The Armored Duo continues to advance

Action Phase:
Fighter
Cleric
Orc 2
Orc 5
Orc 1
Orc 4
Orc 3
Ranger decided that the -5 to the attack roll is worth another shot and hits again with a roll of 6 damage
Mage Adds the Fire Trait to the energy at 3d6
Orc 6 Is standing there but dead.

Slide 5
Movement Phase:
Orc 6 Drops to his knees
Mage None
Ranger None
Orc 3 Charges forward
Orc 4 None watches Orc 6 fall to his knees
Orc 1 Charges Forward
Orc 5 Charges Forward
Orc 2 follows 5
The Armored Duo continues to advance, but the Cleric opens the distance between them.

Action Phase:
Fighter Finds that Orc 5 and 1 are in the threat range of his great Sword and attacks 5 rolls a hit and gets 9 points of damage cleaving through the Orc 5. The cleave continues to Orc 1 where he also gets a hit but a bad roll doing 4 points of damage
Cleric
Orc 2
Orc 5
Orc 1
Orc 4
Orc 3
Ranger uses this second to recover the negative modifier on this bow (-5+3 = -2)
Mage Doesn't need to Heighten the spell and adds selected target to it (will have 2 targets)

Slide 6
Movement Phase:
Orc 6 Drops completely to the ground, one of the arrows is pushed through to the other side
Mage None
Ranger None
Orc 3 Charges forward to fight the Cleric
Orc 4 None watches Orc 6 fall to ground dead
Orc 1 Charges Forward to attack the Fighter
Orc 5 falls towrds the ground in two halves
Orc 2 moves to the side to get around the dead Orc 5
The Armored Duo neither move and both use a AoO the Cleric against 3 and the Fighter against 2 The cleric hits for 2 points of Damage and the fighter hits with a 4 points of damage.

Action Phase:
Fighter buys a standard action to use as an attack rolls his strike at -5 to the roll and misses
Cleric buy a standard action to attack with but is at a -3 to the roll, had 2 seconds of recovery (1 per second) Swings and hits number 3 for a whooping 1 point of damage (3 Total)
Orc 2 All targets out of reach
Orc 5 continues to fall
Orc 1 Attacks fighter hits for 4 points
Orc 4 Thinks, maybe it is time to retreat
Orc 3 Attacks cleric and misses (Cleric Panics)
Ranger Shoots with a -2 on the shot at Orc 2 Hitting him for 6 points of Damage (is having a good day rolling) and kills him.
Mage Completes the Spell converting it into a Rune to be released

Slide 7
Movement Phase:
Mage None
Ranger runs forward as fast as he can to support the Fighter
Orc 3
Orc 4 Leaves
Orc 1
The Armored Duo None

Action Phase:
Fighter buys a standard action to use as an attack rolls his strike at -10 to the roll and misses
Cleric Holds to recover -7
Orc 1 is on recovery cycle
Orc 3 is on recovery cycle
Ranger Recovers -4
Mage Releases Spell against target 3 and 4 Takes the average damage instead of rolling as 9 points each finishes them.

Slide 8
Movement Phase:
None

Action Phase:
Fighter holds to recover -6
Cleric Holds to recover -6
Orc 1 is on recovery cycle
Ranger Recovers -1

Slide 9
Movement Phase:
Ranger Draws Short Sword

Action Phase:
Fighter holds to recover -6
Cleric Holds to recover -6
Orc 1 is on recovery cycle
Ranger recovers (0)

Slide 10
Movement Phase:
Cleric steps in at walking speed to fight orc 1
Range moves walking speed to step into combat

Action Phase:
Fighter holds to recover (-1)
Cleric Recovers (-5)
Orc attacks Fighter Hits and does 8 points of damage (12 total) Still there but not happy
Ranger buys a Standard action (0) and attacks, Hits for 1 point of damage (5 total)

Slide 11 we go straight to Action Phase as no one is moving
Fighter Buys Standard action (-1 to the roll) swings and gets a Critical Hit rolls a 12 +4 x3= 48 points with only 3 left means the Orc just did not make it

LINK

So updated t he file as we had finally gotten the group together again

It flows much more quickly now

The File
Here

Why not just remove focus spells if they unbalance so much?
Make caster level the number of dice and make it all at a 1d6 for normal spells and 1d4 cantrips.

You can then go every 2 levels is a 1d12 instead of a 1d6
and 3d8 every 4 levels, with 2 levels to get 1d8, 3 levels to get 2d8 and the the 4th for he 3d8.

Then the only real difference in spells that do damage are descriptions.

NP, take what ever time you need. I am curious but understand a limited time available situations.

As per suggestion it is now changed to a pure second system with a cool down period to recover the negative effects. So the first paragraph now reads:

Combat is nothing more than doing actions in order of initiative every second in the six second round. The initiative is based on a d20 roll plus modifiers and determines in what order everyone can use their actions. The seconds are split into two phases, The first half is a Movement Phase, and the second half is an Action Phase. If the second ends and no one used an attack, an Action, or Moved then initiative can be re-rolled.
The movement phase is based on initiative and goes from the lowest roll to the highest in order. A creature with a higher Initiative roll can use their movement to counter or block a lower Initiative Creature at any time during the phase. Moving into someone’s combat area at any speed faster than a walk triggers an Attack of Opportunity (AoO). After movements are completed, and any actions from Movement are resolved you then enter the Attack Phase of the second.
The Action Phase is when attacks, which are Actions, are conducted from the highest initiative roll to the lowest. You can delay your attack, or action, to react to the action of another person. If that person doesn't do an Attack or Action, you also do not get yours. Each consecutive Action, or Attack, used draws -5 to the roll to the success of the Action. If the Act is successful there is no continuing penalty, so things like damage are rolled normally.
Recovery of the negative effect on the success roll is done by stopping your Actions. If you do no Actions for a second you recover your Basic Attack Bonus in points to that negative value, treat a 0 as a 1. At First Level if you attack once the next attack will have a -5 to its' success roll, but if you wait 5 seconds it will be reduced to a 0. Immediate and Swift Actions are recovered by NOT using an action AND moving for a full second. How skilled each of the characters are at combat is up to the player’s choices made is creating them.
You are basically on the clock when in combat, no matter what system you use to follow. This system asks what you are doing in this second, and rapidly moves around the table or down the list. The usual systems instead of asking what you are doing for a large block of time, that can lead into unwanted situations. It takes a bit to get used to, but it keeps the players much more coordinated and working as a group.

This is interesting. I've wondered about creating a system like this, myself.

Thanks for the reply

3 files in a Zip

Looking for Feed Back on the following and have more details in the attached file.
Moved Combat to be based on the clock where you follow initiative but instead of acting once for all six seconds you will act once per second.​
Movement and Attacks will be on the second.​
Skills will replace special attack maneuvers like tripping and defensive maneuvers like parrying.​

Combat:
The Combat in most games are based on a concept of a round. Most of the rounds are 6 seconds and you take your turn using all of those seconds.
This opens to change that that to what do you do for your turn on this second and work around the table 6 times in as close to real time as you can get.
Why:
Makes players work more as a group
Makes your current position more important
-Removes the issue of Direct Attacks from those that move after one player but the others have not had a turn yet.​
-Allows the blocking of opponents moves, or yours​
-Allows you to predict when you will reach an enemy and the number of attack you will be able to preform.​
-You must actually leave concealment to attack, and be counter attacked before returning to cover​
-Spells can be caste in real time, with movement before they block the spells path​

If you still want a 3 action economy for attacks, use a 3,2,1 system. The first attack happens in the first 3 seconds, the second attack happens in the next 2 seconds (4-5), and the last attack happens in the last second (6).

Movement:
This I use a speed Attribute for because everyone moves at a different pace, so it seemed better to add to the Characters Scores they roll. If you still want to use the preset 20 ft, 30 ft base system you can, just divide the base speed you have by 6. If you use the speed Attribute that is the maximum (Running) speed you can move in a second.

Skills:
Moved everything I could to be skill based for bonuses. You can do anything without needing the skill (Untrained) but receive no bonuses 1d20 vs DC.
Taking the Cascade of the Skill will allow Attribute bonuses, but no others​
Taking the Skill will allow Attribute bonuses and Skill Bonuses (Ranks or Tiers) being applied.​
Skill bonuses are pluses to the rolls +1 per Rank to be used to over come the DC, added to a strike roll, etc.​

LINK:
The File

GotAFarmYet? wrote:

...

So The whole detect magic thing is simply replaced by the words "in line of sight".

incorrect

there's a clear difference between LoS and LoE. My guess is you're not too familiar with PF1 spells or magic and you're not a rules lawyer.

Correct, making the transition to PF 1. Mostly from the very old school of AD&D.

In PF1 Know Alignment became a series of spells... you don't want a sense replacing (what is now) several spells. If a creature sees a spirit or ghost they don't know its alignment. The actions of a creature reveal its general alignment.

Detect Magic: "The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it."
This is a sensible limitation. There are Game Balance & Interaction issues I'm trying to lessen.

Coming up with "Focusing" was actually the tricky part. I want detection AND casting without giving up the detection. (Maintaining) Concentration is a standard action.

The business with the criticals is PF2

thanks for the input. I was concerned about the word count but there's a decent amount of defining guardrails/interactions to keep it balanced & clear.

We stopped using Alignment probably 2 decades ago, and based it more on character traits, motives, values. This means on how it is played out, or on the actions. The "oh, he is evil" makes figuring out the who done it far to simple.

Well I guess since it is out there, did I not intend to write a version of D&D. This is a compiling of the rules that were modified after playing games sines the 1980s'.
Mostly this is just the notes from all of those, but I guess you could use it in its own system.

So what is different?
First would be Initiative and Combat: Momement Phase than a Action Phase, initiative based.
We still use the standard 1d20 to set Initiative, but we use the second as the base unit instead of the round (6seconds) common to many RPG.
We added SPD or Speed and made its in feet per second as part of the Attributes (this came out of Palladium Games).
Traits like dark vision are bought with the same points you started with to place in attributes to improve them, do I want the +1 to strength or 5% magic resistance?
The classless system is still a WIP, but it means that their are no classes, based on the Skills, feats, and features you select will be what the character can do, not a structured class.
The way you set your character will also determine which EXP table you will use for advancement.

How does it work?
The round is a 6 second box full of moves and attacks for the characters following 1 another in turn, normally.
This system still limits the actions to the round, but uses the second clock as well.
Initiative is rolled and the order placed in a chart like normal
The 1st second Movement Phase:
The lowest Initiative roll moves first, the highers can move at any time to block them. etc. You can move up to your SPD Attribute (Modified for encumbrance). 1/3 would be a walking speed, above 2/3 is a run.
The 1st second Attack Phase
You would now do your attacks, if a target is within range following normal initiative order.
repeat 5 more times, the GM doesn't wait for people to think but keeps it moving along, basically forcing them to act now or wait until the next second.
People leaving gaps in lines or stopping a flanking opponent happens much more often. Also it limits people being in the way for line of sight attacks.
It is playing out the 6 seconds together, rather than what are you doing during these 6 seconds.

Combat:
The ability to use weapons is split to per weapon and anything can be selected, like a long sword or Hand (Fist). The bonuses then only apply to a single weapon and how far you train in the one weapon. The level of training will determine the BAB table benefits, bonuses, etc. Weapons are treated like a skill, you can use any weapon but only those you trained in will allow for a bonus to the roll. The special attacks like, grapple, trip, and the rest are also treated like skills. The same is true for defensive measures as well being trained in a shield or armor is also a skill. Spells are cast over time meaning you might have the chance to run up to the mage and hit them before the spell is complete.

Spells:
1 cast over time
2 Open to what you can do based on traits, and scales to the Spell Level to be released based on the points you spend on the spell (limited by your level)
3 Memorized spells are still there and are used to reduce casting times
4 The type of release is picked by the mage at time of release; did it need to be a burst, a cone, a beam you decide.
5 The more powerful the spell the higher the points needed and the higher the spell slot used

MP system:
This is just a simple why keep track of Ki, Rage points, available spells, etc. You can just use one system MP (Mana, Mind Points) and use it for all of these. The recovery rate is the same as overnight HP so it is low meaning you have to think carefully if you should use them, but can allow you to go all out when necessary.

Armor:
Well that was because you can now customize your armor. You can fit a AC to what your character is actually wearing. Not wearing a helmet so your super hearing can be used, well now it is possible to adjust the AC for it. Wearing leather with a chest and back plate, well now it can generate a AC, weight and modifiers for that.

-GAFY

Well I guess since it is out there, did I not intend to write a version of D&D. This is a compiling of the rules that were modified after playing games sines the 1980s'.
Mostly this is just the notes from all of those, but I guess you could use it in its own system.

So what is different?
First would be Initiative and Combat: Momement Phase than a Action Phase, initiative based.
We still use the standard 1d20 to set Initiative, but we use the second as the base unit instead of the round (6seconds) common to many RPG.
We added SPD or Speed and made its in feet per second as part of the Attributes (this came out of Palladium Games).
Traits like dark vision are bought with the same points you started with to place in attributes to improve them, do I want the +1 to strength or 5% magic resistance?
The classless system is still a WIP, but it means that their are no classes, based on the Skills, feats, and features you select will be what the character can do, not a structured class.
The way you set your character will also determine which EXP table you will use for advancement.

How does it work?
The round is a 6 second box full of moves and attacks for the characters following 1 another in turn, normally.
This system still limits the actions to the round, but uses the second clock as well.
Initiative is rolled and the order placed in a chart like normal
The 1st second Movement Phase:
The lowest Initiative roll moves first, the highers can move at any time to block them. etc. You can move up to your SPD Attribute (Modified for encumbrance). 1/3 would be a walking speed, above 2/3 is a run.
The 1st second Attack Phase
You would now do your attacks, if a target is within range following normal initiative order.
repeat 5 more times, the GM doesn't wait for people to think but keeps it moving along, basically forcing them to act now or wait until the next second.
People leaving gaps in lines or stopping a flanking opponent happens much more often. Also it limits people being in the way for line of sight attacks.
It is playing out the 6 seconds together, rather than what are you doing during these 6 seconds.

Combat:
The ability to use weapons is split to per weapon and anything can be selected, like a long sword or Hand (Fist). The bonuses then only apply to a single weapon and how far you train in the one weapon. The level of training will determine the BAB table benefits, bonuses, etc. Weapons are treated like a skill, you can use any weapon but only those you trained in will allow for a bonus to the roll. The special attacks like, grapple, trip, and the rest are also treated like skills. The same is true for defensive measures as well being trained in a shield or armor is also a skill. Spells are cast over time meaning you might have the chance to run up to the mage and hit them before the spell is complete.

Spells:
1 cast over time
2 Open to what you can do based on traits, and scales to the Spell Level to be released based on the points you spend on the spell (limited by your level)
3 Memorized spells are still there and are used to reduce casting times
4 The type of release is picked by the mage at time of release; did it need to be a burst, a cone, a beam you decide.
5 The more powerful the spell the higher the points needed and the higher the spell slot used

MP system:
This is just a simple why keep track of Ki, Rage points, available spells, etc. You can just use one system MP (Mana, Mind Points) and use it for all of these. The recovery rate is the same as overnight HP so it is low meaning you have to think carefully if you should use them, but can allow you to go all out when necessary.

Armor:
Well that was because you can now customize your armor. You can fit a AC to what your character is actually wearing. Not wearing a helmet so your super hearing can be used, well now it is possible to adjust the AC for it. Wearing leather with a chest and back plate, well now it can generate a AC, weight and modifiers for that.

-GAFY

I'm working on a race and didn't think Spirit Sight worked for what I wanted. So here's an opener as I'm working on the race.

Spiritsense (Su) (magic?) feat: Req: Level 7, Know(Arcana or Religion) 5 ranks, minor spiritsense or spirit sight, cost 4000gp & 3 weeks time for ritual;
Spiritsense is the ability to perceive/see the nebulous forms of spirits or souls. To use the ability you expend a move action “Focusing”(not as severe as Concentration but subject to the same rules for breaking/interruption/ending) each round and on the second round of focusing you can perceive or see the spirits or souls of intelligent (living or undead) creatures as tenuous blurry forms. If you cease focusing the ability ends at the start of your next round or ends immediately if focusing is broken/ended. Creatures without a spirit or soul (mindless or Int≤2) are not perceived/visible using this sense. Spiritsense does not confer knowledge about alignment. This ability extends into close and coterminous planes (from the material: dreamlands(plane of dreams), ethereal, first world(fey), shadow, void(dark tapestry), and created planes such as mindscapes or pocket dimensions). Solid objects and metals affect the sense the same as detect magic.
You need to view the material plane to coordinate/associate where you see the spirit, so the normal limits to vision and hearing apply. You suffer double range penalties (-2 per 10ft) to perception within line of sight to make out details (identify type and abilities) but normal range penalties to target the creature’s spirit with a spell or ability. The nebulous form confers an -2 circumstance penalty to Knowledge checks to identify type and abilities. Missing the Knowledge Check by up to 10 means you believe the creature type is something similar but failing by 10 or more means you are wildly incorrect or that you cannot discern anything. With a successful perception check using spiritsense and seeing the material plane you know where a creature is in its square. This ability...

Rewrote it a bit to make it easier to understand:

Many assume the creatures they see without bodies on the material plane are spirits, ghosts, or haunts as that is usually the case. Spiritsense is the ability to perceive/see the nebulous forms of spirits or souls. A creature completing the spiritsense ritual gains a symbol (for spirit or sight), iridescent sigil, or “all-seeing eye” tattoo on their eyelids which can be seen when eyes are closed (Prcptn DC 20). The mark can be covered with makeup but is still visible to detect magic if you are not concealed by an active illusion such as invisibility.

The ability requires you expend a move action “Focusing”(not as severe as Concentration but subject to the same rules for breaking/interruption/ending) each round. On the second round of focusing you can perceive or see the spirits or souls of intelligent (living or undead) creatures as tenuous blurry forms. If you cease focusing the ability ends at the start of your next round or ends immediately if focusing is broken/ended. Creatures without a spirit or soul (mindless or Int≤2) are not perceived/visible using this sense. This ability extends into close and coterminous planes (from the material: dreamlands(plane of dreams), ethereal, first world(fey), shadow, void(dark tapestry), and created planes such as mindscapes or pocket dimensions).

You need to view the material plane to coordinate/associate where you see the spirit, so the normal limits to vision and hearing apply. You suffer double range penalties (-2 per 10ft) to perception within line of sight to make out details (identify type and abilities) but normal range penalties to target the creature’s spirit with a spell or ability. The nebulous form confers an -2 circumstance penalty to Knowledge checks to identify type and abilities. This ability can foil invisibility, blink, project image and similar spells. Unfortunately the nebulous form prevents targeting the creature’s spirit for precision damage. You can detect an ongoing possession of a creature at Perception DC (11 +2*Spell Level) or (11+CR of the creature with possession ability). Only half the material components are needed for True-seeing. Spiritsense ability allows access to Spirit Sight feat (replacing the requirements). Spirit Sight allows detect possession (as spiritsense) and allows you to detect a curse at Perception DC (11 +2*Spell Level).

Missing the Knowledge Check use the following
Critical Success: ?
Success: Normal information; you know where a creature is in its square
Failed: You believe the creature type is something similar
Critical Failure: You are wildly incorrect or that you cannot discern anything.

Did have a question on these two lines:
Spiritsense does not confer knowledge about alignment.
Why not if the Spirit is part of the soul then an alignment should also be part of that.
Solid objects and metals affect the sense the same as detect magic.
Could not figure out why this needed to be there

GotAFarmYet? wrote:

Trying to balance out the magic as it is all over the place. Some spells for their level are to weak while others are to strong. So I broke it down to points made them all start at the lowest they can be use. Turns out most spells could be started at 1st level and scaled up by caster level. So this turned the spells into the points you use in them determines the level they are cast at. The MSG tab are the basic rules I was applying to make it all as equal as I could and the Ful SP Lst is the spells reworked. Not all the spells are there simply because the only difference was the text on what they looked like when being used. This means I also dropped the schools that also seemed arbitrary and set them by traits. This led to the more of a free from of making spells and the points used making the determination of the spells level.

So please review this xls file below let me know what you think, is it a good idea bad?
There are lots of other things in the file but mostly I am looking at the MSG and Ful SP Lst tabs for comment. Don't mind the others being discussed but it might clutter up the results for the magic.

The link to the File

Is this for PF2E? You've posted in the PF1E forum, but the document looks more like PF2E

Beyond that, remember that certain spells are 'classics' and are intended to be somewhat 'overpowered' in comparison to the others (Magic Missile and Fireball are supposed to be some of the strongest options at their respective levels).

It will work in PF 2, and PF 1, AD&D, D&D 3.5 and D&D 5

The Heightened part, is because the world I am building will limit Magic to 6th levels spells being cast as a maximum. Mostly do to how magic was used in wars in the past. Heightened spells will be a way of increasing the range, duration, and damage to a higher level past 6th. In terms of damage the increase is about 1/2 of what a normal spell level would grant. Basically I placed myself into a corner with the max level and liked what PF2 did and used it in a modified way. Spells casted through Rituals and Rune Circles can also be used, but even those will have limitations.

Anyways how it can be used in the other formats is:
The level of the User determines the amount of power the spell can be used. Every two levels of caster lets you use a spell at a higher level. The higher the level of spell you release the more range, duration, and damage. One spell can be memorized and released at anywhere from 1st to the max level of spell you can cast.
An extra part of the system will also let you select the output method of the spell, selected targets, burst, cone, stream/beam, touch, etc.
The idea was to make a flexible spell system that scaled with the casters' level. It was also meant to take existing spells and convert them into this system. Some spells cannot be cast at a level 1 and needed to start at 2 or 3 Mad Monkeys is a example of that, think that one was at least 2nd level Spell being needed.

Yeah, it's not a well thought out spell, lol.

Void was to consider using in the Emerald Spire (level 11) that has a evil cleric with evil and void domains. I only put the domain description for easy context (not everyone wants to follow links, or create them)

Call the Void seems to have the flavor I was looking for, but wanted a ranged effect. I guess that doesn't need to have a thrown mechanic.
And it being an intangible energy, I thought a will save better than reflex. It's effecting the person's being more than their body

I appreciate the input. I'll probably steer away from spell creation, lol

Sorry for bringing up an old topic. Don't give it up just work out the thought process to help you do it in the future.

It is not that hard, but does require brainstorming and time. You jot down what you are trying to do: Damage, effects, etc.
Define them and make sure it is to a single purpose:

You can call upon the cold darkness between the stars to gain flight, travel to other worlds, or summon monsters from beyond to do your bidding

This is more of a pick one, these are all possible spells based on the description you use. "You call upon the the energy that lays in the cold void of space between the stars to...".

So I was thinking of a splash attack spell

Ok, not bad look at spells like acid splash and anything close to it, i.e. splash damage.

Echo of the Void (Evil, Void) Level 4?

Close range 25' + 5'/2 Lvl
Components: V
Conjure a small sphere of dark nothingness and toss at opponents
20' burst/splash d4 + wisdom modifier/caster level of void energy dmg
SR Will Save (since its just energy)

I literally just whipped this up and I have no idea of balance. Does this have merit?

Don't name it first, you can do that later by looking at synonyms for the main effects you want it to look like. Take void:

You wanted to do damage so only 1 and 3 are viable, if you wanted splash damage then vacuum is the route to take as strong suction can be used for the splash damage. Standard damage for the game by the way is about 1d6 per caster level, or 2d6 per spell level. Splash damage has to many variations so you are on your own there, but think at terms of a percentage and apply it in dice.
Range is generally 50-100 feet per Spell Level and 5-10 feet per caster level also used as the burst radius for many spells out to a maximum of 30 feet.
Using a 1d4 for damage and making it a thrown, you are pretty much making it a cantrip and limiting your spell. At least you can now use acid splash as the base to build it from. As stated by the others this means a Reflex save to avoid it.

You then wanted a Willpower save instead, that means option 2 is the damage method, or Mental damage. So now it should not be tossed but placed as part of the spell. Description: "you open their mind to the vastness of space to show how infinitesimal their existence. They receive xd6 of mental damage from experience. with xd(whatever) as persistent damage".

In Summery:
You did the right thing you needed help, and asked for it.
The area you needed help in was how do I think this through, and be creative about it.
This is one of the thought process I use when working with spells.

Hope this helps you in the future and good luck with your game.

Discorporation (Discorp)

School: C [teleportation, void];  Domain/Mystery: magic 0, intrigue 0, trickery 0, void 0;
Level: arcanist 0, bard 0, sorcerer 0, wizard 0, medium 0, mesmerist 0, occultist 0, psychic 0, spiritualist 0, investigator 0.
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Components: S, M(silver dust 1gp), F(small mirror 10 gp)
Range: Your or Adjacent square
Target(s): 1 medium or smaller creature or small object up to 2 cuft or 60 lbs
Duration: Concentration(Conc) up to CL r, Dismissable(Đ)
Save: Will (harmless, negates); SR: Yes
Description
Discorporation manages to make about half of a creature or object seem to disappear or vanish leaving a silverish white layer over the divided surface(s). The caster chooses top, middle, bottom, left, or right half of target creature or object. The effect is a minor static form of plane shifting to the ethereal plane which requires the creature/object not move (lose its Dexterity bonus) from its current square or end the effect. Tricksters simply rotate the “women sawn in half” around or pass a hoop through their missing section showing that there is nothing there (on this plane). While the target gains no concealment, cover, dodge bonus, increase in armor class, or bonus to squeeze it does expose itself to attack on the ethereal plane with no Dexterity bonus. If the creature moves 5ft, moves to gain it’s Dexterity bonus to armor class, is affected by another [calling, teleportation, or void] effect, or the caster ceases concentration the spell ends. Due to strain the caster suffers 1 point of non-lethal damage at the start of every even round (2, 4, 6, 8, etc) he maintains the spell. If the creatures head is discorporated they may view a misty version of the ethereal plane but senses are limited to 10ft (this effect is often used for scary pranks by acolytes). Creatures and objects can not be left on the ethereal plane and naturally return to the caster’s plane where dropped at...

Interesting spell

the RAW spells for DnD 3 to PF1 are basically ranked by power and play testing.

I've done my own tweaks over the years but it is more than just damage per spell level, ranges, targeting... best of luck

The originals have been play tested, but you can tell from sites like RPGBOT that they are not all that balanced. They have shown why use this spell when this one at the same level has twice the range or twice the damage. Hence the the tables by picking apart the spells and taking all the components to a base level.

Used that level applied the same rules to see where they spells would actually land, some compared higher than what was originally specified and a few lower.

Fireball and lightening bolt are a prime examples: they both did the same damage at first and only the range and delivery of the spell were different. Fireball had a shorter range and a burst while lightening bolt had the longer range and at 10' wide hit 2 maximum.

Move up to 5e and fireball with a 20' burst and 150' compared to 100' beam. The Fireball wins in both range and 3 times the area of effect.

move over to PF 1 and you get fireball with x4 the range and x3 the AoE

Move up to PF2E and you get Fireball at 4x the range and 3x the AoE. The difference is about 1d12 of damage. At least they are trying to compensate for the range.

So, I asked why when the only difference is in the description of the effect. So the system I worked out in the file.
1 both are the same level so same range.
2 both have the same level so they can do the same damage
2a I allowed the damage type to be select able a 1d12 takes 2d6
3 you can chose have to deliver the output, either can be a burst, beam, cone, etc.
3a each output has advantages and disadvantages, the situation will prompt which to use.

In all of the combat or damage only spells, that is what it comes down to in a base form.
Other spells are not as easy as duration is the worse offender in the list, will admit through out that one and made the word sustain take on more of meaning.

That is the break down and thanks for the reply!
I did break down about 100 spells and placed them in the file for review.
-GAFY

Trying to balance out the magic as it is all over the place. Some spells for their level are to weak while others are to strong. So I broke it down to points made them all start at the lowest they can be use. Turns out most spells could be started at 1st level and scaled up by caster level. So this turned the spells into the points you use in them determines the level they are cast at. The MSG tab are the basic rules I was applying to make it all as equal as I could and the Ful SP Lst is the spells reworked. Not all the spells are there simply because the only difference was the text on what they looked like when being used. This means I also dropped the schools that also seemed arbitrary and set them by traits. This led to the more of a free from of making spells and the points used making the determination of the spells level.

So please review this xls file below let me know what you think, is it a good idea bad?
There are lots of other things in the file but mostly I am looking at the MSG and Ful SP Lst tabs for comment. Don't mind the others being discussed but it might clutter up the results for the magic.

The link to the File

Mostly this is because I never liked that spells never scaled well and the damage was all over the place. There were spells are a lower level that would do more damage then ones twice their level.

So looking it all over I assigned points to it, and the points you used would determine the level of the spell you were casting. I also set the traits as the bases of the spells to be made.

There is allot of other stuff in here but you do not have to review it if you don't want to spend months to read through it all. I do have to point out that all spells for the most part because of this setup start at level 1, a cantrip, or has a minimum caster level in the description. I left most combat spells out but there is a general notice on how they work. I use a second clock to run combat, but if you were to convert that out it would be a 3 seconds make a 1st action, the next 2 seconds makes the 2nd action and the 3rd action swizzles in at the last second.

The Spells are on the "MSG" and "Ful SP Lst" Tabs.

The MP system can be ignored as it is more for the game we play as it is used in various ways. Even the old Casting system might work it was simply a Spell cost its Level in caster points to cast. The caster points you get were your INT Modifier + your Level at every level up. Recovery of caster points was 1+ your INT modifier Nightly.

Currently this is only in a Excel Format as converting it to PDF will have to wait until I get a bit more time.
Thanks in advance

File .

Been working mostly on placing spells so that they make sense on how they are created. Damage, Duration, range are all over the place so trying to make a more standardized system. This why spells will show more towards their true levels for what they do. Other concepts are in the file but have a long way to go before being ready. The system is based on the Traits instead of the Schools.

Link to the file MSG Tab..

I think something that gets lost is how unbelievably wealthy adventurers tend to be compared to the average person in pathfinder.

If you actually look at through most literature Adventurers were pretty well off, they only took jobs like clean a stable in the beginning of their careers. Once established most jobs were taken about 2-6 a month, depending on the time to complete them. They made silver and gold compared to a commons mans copper.

I would say you will have adjust the prices no matter which of the three you posted. They all are over and under priced, rerun your calculations at a silver price of 20-35 range and again at the 1900 exchange and you will see most items are not affordable.

Only the DMs' who made their own worlds and laid down a economy in them as a base layer truly have one. Too much work for to little gain in most cases

Avoid corruption? Why would I avoid that?

$#!+, I would rewrite the very definition of it.

What sort of Lich or Worm that Walks ever AVOIDS corruption? And I don't plan on dying in a normal lifetime like the rest of you mere mortals. This sort of power DESERVES to be put to use for more than a single tiny century... no, this power NEEDS to be eternal!!!

LOL,

Actually if you do become a Lich I doubt anything the world has could stop you at that point.

And that is the point, there really is no way to avoid becoming corrupt. The spells don't have to be modernized as you can research spells if you want. So based on what I have read so far is don't bother hiding it, with tech today it will be found out. No matter what you do they will come for you and remove you as a issue unless you become a Lich. once immortal well the rest really doesn't mater anymore.

Question:
If you become a Lich do you miss your anatomy at any point?

Okay now that's a good one

What you are asking is "Hey, how can i cheat, give me some ways to cheat". Most of the loop holes do have draw backs and a good DM will know them and use them against you. So most here are really trying to say yes we know of them and many of them have been discussed, but we don't want you to soil it for others in your group.

If the situation was hey they took this and it doesn't seem like the disadvantage it was meant to be we would be more helpful.

No way.

First thing you do is kill everyone you love... it's part of the ritual to become a Lich!

Take that, stupid government... can't hold anything over me now! Sorry dad, you wouldn't understand...

Hey don't forget to keep the skeletons, to make an army, remember prisoners are just rations :)

No the only issue is how do you with such power keep from doing what all people in power do, become corrupt. It really doesn't matter if it is reviled or not, though if reviled you will be more limited in choices, but how to control yourself. It will probably be more trouble than it is worth, allot of Fun but I really don't think I would use it well past my own petty needs

Rogue Fact Checker and Quixote
Thanks for the replies

You're not wrong. I usually agree with your posts and generally respect your opinions.

I have noticed that I have been more abrasive lately. Not sure why. I don't mean for it to bleed over into my interactions with the online community. I have always been cynical, but I was previously more refined with my delivery. $#!+'s been weird lately, trying to pull myself out of a funk.

I always try to find the humor in a post personally, and VoodistMonk you and Quixotes' replies are usually pretty much entertaining and at least to me makes me think if the approach I am using is the best one out there. I think everything that is going on in the world since March is pretty much putting us all on edge, as it forced a change in our normal habits. I try to think of this as a learning process and yes I agree sometimes it is hard to find something in a post. Plus with my current atte... Oh shiny and rambling responses at times...

Was I saying something?
So again we are always back to the same the core clasees have been out shined by the expansions. Has anyone every listed a list of things to add to the core classes to get them back to the expanded classes in abilities?

For me the discussion brought out allot of background for the Rogue.

Its nice to see the classes and some build outs for how they can be used. I do hate to say this but everything is almost always Multi-classed to round them out, because even with all the additional items it always seems that all classes are lacking.

Quixote, I guess the question you have not answered or left unstated was why does the Rogue in your opinion need the ability to do damage equal to the front liners?
are the party sizes smaller than 5? at 4 or less then yes they need to do allot more damage, but at 6 or more less so.

Because the rogue is regarded as the worst class and I wanted to make it better. Because my table doesn't use 90% of the extra stuff they made up later on, like gunslingers and aliens and cat people and cleric/fighters that somehow aren't cleric/fighters.

I will disagree on the Rogue being a weak class, it is also a much more fun class to play than others, fighter. We did do some multi-class and the fighter/cleric was one to make the fighter more useful. I still liked the Rogue/Bard as I always thought those should kind of be together

We also did not play with much of the expansion, most were overpowered and lead to play balance issues. Never thought a Gunslingers should be in a medieval world. Well we did allow a Ranger guy who was from the future, only advantage was the compound bow allowed for a higher strength damage, and his cloak allowed better stealth against low light vision.

So back to the point the Rogue was not a bad class, and grew more useful as they progressed. The plain Fighter on the other hand, became less useful as the party advanced around 3rd to 6th level the Mage advanced enough and the Fighter was pretty much fired as they took to much money for what they could do, you could get by without a tank after 6th if all they were was a fighter.

Not to mention they became boring to play...
Elbow the fighter player awake, Oh I swing, hit, damage is, wake me when its my turn again.
So I know it is not the right thread, but what were the tweaks to the fighter?

Yeah been flexible on some of these myself
We do let Rogues attack from concealment as a surprise if they did not know you were there. They do have to make a stealth check though.

We let stealth if you are actively using it hide from divination, but as for scent you are either upwind or downwind so you get a bonus or not only. You can use it to cover your scent but it usually involves something smelly. and you do need to use something from that area or you still stand out.

The question is how much more useless did the fighter come when ylu started to add to the Rogue?

So in simple terms peop0le can that can use magic can make local changes to the laws of the universe. It is the belief that they can do so that allows them to do it. People who follow the divine have substituted the image of a god for their own issues., but it allowed them to use the power. Once again it is the belief that allows the use of power, not a actual god.

Make every ones belief slightly different, no two the same even if they have the same god by name. You can use it to cause conflict between the factions and wars from it, all adventures can come from this.

In the end when they find out the truth, the question is can they accept it. Will the Divine casters have faith in them selves or the gods?

In truth if they pick either path believe in themselves or still believe against proof that their god exists then they will continue to have spells. It is all about the belief you can use the magic that makes it work, it will be about faith. Only those with no faith will lose in the end.

Why doesn't the AMF dispel the summoned monsters?

Realistically it depends on the situation
1 you are in a situation were you can take prisoners
2 you are in a situation were you can NOT take prisoners

In the situation were you can take them means you have a line of retreat and prisoners were part of the goal. Band of enemies attacking a village you are defending. You are attacking scouts for information on the enemies army. You are dungeon crawling, large scale with multiple groups in it, and a group attacks you. You are attacking a position and will hold it until reinforcements arrive.

In situations you cannot take them, attacking a Kobalds Layer to save the [Insert]. In this case though the odds of them surrendering is pretty much not going to happen. They may pull back to wait for reinforcements, but until you rescue the [Insert] and start to escape it is not possible to take prisoners. So as the GM don't have the enemy surrender if it is not a situation that can support it.

In truth the situation should not come up, if the players are not in a position to do so.

is it real or a illusion?
One possibility is the spell is making a reflection of what is in the quiver. You are then shooting a reflection of the arrows. The AMF would then dispel the illusion of the arrows as they pass through, this would also hold true for the summoned monster.

With this you then have to answer is it automatically dispelled or do you use the rules of Dispel Magic on these things?

so i'm looking at a phantom blade using a whip. so whip mastery allows me to deal non-lethal or lethal as i wish.

if i use spell combat and spell strike to cast a cure spell and choose to deal non-lethal damage as a i whip an ally who only has 3 health left the whip damage deals 7 nonlethal but the cure heals him for 10 does he fall unconscious and then get healed or does the nonlethal and the heal hit him at the same time leaving him at a positive number after the damage/heal resolves(so hes not prone and does not drop his stuff in hand)

So going back to this unanswered Question, and is the spell instant or Simultaneous?

Instant 3 takes spell +10, 13 is greater then 7 so still going, though 5 points of damage will knock him out.
Simultaneous 3 + 10 and total need to be above 7 still the same at 13 with a 5 points of useful health left. If the damage is applied at the same speed as the heal the HIT positive pool would be 3 ahead of the damage or more because the Heal was a higher number.

either case says he would never go down for the count, as at no point would he be at a negative value.

As for the critical, if you are trying to do non-damage strikes why can you not only hit for 1 point and no critical if you can control the damage you are doing?

Never seen it limit a direction, but it use to be limited to a 5 foot step to avoid a Attack of Opportunity.

Voodist please stop

G-Prime,
Your system is fine and really as Ryan pointed out will have issues above a certain level, and there are two things you can add to avoid that issue.

Just make sure your campaign can support a monster moving through areas where people will be scared of said monster. As for training look up sites that deal with wild horse training and breaking as that is pretty much what you will have to do to ride it.

GotAFarm said that Griffins are NOT like dogs, so I don't know what that last sentence is about.

As far as adding a Griffin to your party, you seem to have it covered... especially with generous hand-waiving of people's reactions to it. For every kid staring wide-eyed and saying "cool", there are seven farmers running to protect their horses and alert the city guard. Or there isn't, and it's just another trained Griffin... just like every other trained Griffin. Put it in the pen with the other Griffins.

As I also stated he already has the details so no need to worry.

The Dog statement is that players tend to think of it the same way as a dog with a few extra rolls. They also get the same Idea that it can be passed off as easily in any place that they go, oh its just a Griffon no reason for alarm.

So glad to see you are just giving them a pass and basically a play toy. So in your world it will have a pass.

But here is the kicker, RP or not sooner or later they will miss a roll and a Noble on a Horse will be involved. That will mean the players will have to kill the Griffon, be convicted of crimes against the state or both. Sure you can avoid the issues but if you really are about RP try that one out. I am just going say this it is not as convenient as you think and will cause many delays in the game.

Artofregicide wrote:

Eat them.

Extra provisions and you still get skeletons for the necromancer to use.

I'm totally chaotic neutral! Whee!

I love this. It made me laugh until I stopped. I especially enjoyed the assumption that every party has a Necromancer in need of skeletons.

Had to laugh at that one too!

So want to make a party and adventure now just to do this

You have just found the old debate are monsters moral creatures?

Also you have to have party expectations, was it their job to take prisoners?
If they did not kill them to get information, that was controllable by you.
If the mission was to take prisoners, fine they need to keep them alive. If they are still in the middle of assaulting the fortress where discovery is death they have to kill to them and hide the bodies. We have gotten by it with a Rogue that was that type of guy, most of the party would go forward and he would kill the enemy. Yes the party knew what was going on but by not seeing it it was deniability for the others.

You just need that one guy, all the others that can't just push on.

The feeding it was basically to point out all gaming aside it really is not a good thing to add to a adventuring campaign. It is by far to limiting to the party. Every where you go it will be a issue. The feeding it is the best way to make it dependent and to domesticate it, if done for a few generations they will be like any domestic dog.

Stabling the Griffin, yea good luck there.
Going into a dungeon with it, good luck
Going into any city, town or village, good luck

All things aside
It is pretty well though out for what you want to do by adding some fun to the players choices. You did think it past the point where any issues will be found in its development.

It is mostly a way of pulling a character or two from the party as you can use it as a excuse. They left to train the Griffon or what ever it is, for RL reasons or to start a new character. To add it to a on going game really doesn't work, as it will cause more issues than be fun to play out. sure you can totally ignore all the issues it will cause. People tend to see it as getting a puppy, but it is not a domestic animal bred to react to humans favorably like a Dog. It is more like raising a wolf or a tiger, and try bring that into a town. Yes I know everyone will jump on the animal companion part here, but even those if played properly have issues. Out side of the area the character is from, or well known for his companions they will have to caged or left out side the area.

So unless you are using it as a mechanic to retire some player characters, it is best not to use this in a on going campaign.

The down side:
Training it is like training a child, and requires 24 hours a day 7 days a week focus.
It cost over 27,000 gp in food per year
When you piss it off it will fly away, probably with all your food.
Good luck having other animals with you
other animals if they are not eaten, they will flee at any opportunity. when other animals flee, the rider will be a unwilling passenger at that point as no amount of rolls will prevent them from leaving.
and that is just the beginning

Nope, better to make a omelet, and don't spare the cheese and bacon

Can we all agree that the number of non-evil goblins is greater than the number of people who have changed their minds based on one of these threads?

LOL,

A goblin is a monstrous creature from European folklore, first attested in stories from the Middle Ages. They are ascribed various and conflicting abilities, temperaments and appearances depending on the story and country of origin. They are almost always small and grotesque, mischievous or outright malicious, and greedy, especially for gold and jewelry. They often have magical abilities similar to a fairy or demon.

So now we can shift the argument to does the Folk Lore a Game is based on count?

...

Nah. we were making fun of Bjørn Røyrvik as he likes to go around and see if he can trigger people at times.

Either way we all agree that the party handled the situation poorly and that in the game the odds of assassins half the level of the party would really not stand a chance. If it was the opposite and the party was half the level assassins then it might have worked.

The way it was looking was the town was full of Goblins, The inn was full of Goblins and run by Goblins. They even greeted you at the door and took your luggage for you. There was a secret door into every room with a full stealth build that Dwarves could not find. The Players decided well they are only Goblins, and took sleeping pills to aid their rest, and all slept in different rooms. Also don't forget they all used radios and watches to time the attack to the second with coordination. And the only compliant was the coup de grâce was too powerful.

Yup totally believable.

And here I thought he was talking about Goblins delivering a perfume.

So what is happening is the Core rules are being over written by expansions. The new class make many feats unless, but many feats need them as a perquisite. It is also causing many of the issues here.

So either the class gets it and all others are stuck in Feat limbo, or you simple start to eliminate the class from the expansions that cause issues. The next thing is make up your own set of rules to cover for not using feats at all.

Make it skills, weapon styles, attack styles and modify things to your ideal game. It is kind of what PF is about customizing your game to match your world and players chosen class. To much contradiction in the current rules if it all applies seems to be a never ending issue.

So always back to the same thing do what works for your group and you.