| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Nature = good, Technology = evil concept is not adequate AP material IMO.
In Golarion, Technology is clearly neutral. And of course it can be used for evil goals, but that is because of the villains using it.
Yeah, technology as a whole is neutral, it doesn't mean there can't be an adventure were the villain are technologically oriented and the PCs are "nature oriented". Like, "lawfullness" was neutral, but there still was APs where the party were expected to be chaotic (and good), fighting villains that were lawfull (and evil). And the opposite was true, there was AP that expected the party to be lawfull (heroes), while their opponent were chaotic (villains).
The moral neutrality of a concept don't mean that every single character and story that use it have to morally neutral themselves, that would be silly. The idea that the only good story for a nature themed party is to have a nature themed villain (and that the only good story for a technology themed party is to have a technology themed villain) is silly.
In general, I think the opposite is mostly true, the best AP and stories are about villain that are thematically opposed the heroes, not when they are "similar but evil". Barbarian vs techno-wizard, paladins vs demons, revolutionary vs evil regime. I mean Kingmaker is a "civilisation VS wild" AP where the party is unambiguously on the side of civilisation, the opposite isn't that big an ask.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So, maybe a reverse WoW, where PCs start as believers in progress and taming the natural world and end up protecting it and fighting the daemon-inspired profiteers who just want to increase their power and wealth, no matter who suffers.
That's a really interesting idea - I know it's not normal for Paizo to lock your PC's narrative in too much from the AP premise, but when they've done it before it has really worked for me. Without spoilers, Strange Aeons has a pretty restricted set of narratives available for the last several years of the PC's lives, and I've got a lot of positive feedback on that from people. In this case, saying all the PCs start off working for - though not necessarily agreeing with - an exploitative group that is harming nature gives you some really interesting room for different possible character arcs. Especially with how common 3-book APs are nowadays, it's much less of a risk than it used to be.
The tricky bit would be that it's still an AP - so they need to change their mind at the 'right' time - which is why I think your idea of them ending up opposing something as messed up as fiends is a good way to do it. Book 1 could be setting up the expectation that you're fighting some group that are being 'too extreme' in their protection of the wilderness against your employer's encroachment, only for the twist to be that your employers are doing some real nasty things that you can't work with - like your fiend example. Then the next two books can be about working against your former employers, potentially alongside the extremists you thought you were going to fight. It'd need a well-written player's guide - you'd need to make sure that everyone going in had a reason to distrust or dislike their employers to some degree. If it was pulled off well, I think it could be a very compelling narrative, and it could have a lot of interesting themes - the way that what might seem extreme can be a reasonable response when you're fully informed, the obvious 'nature vs exploitation' themes, but also some more subtle themes about getting yourself mentally to a point where you can change sides and oppose the exploitation, about the conflict between two groups who are on the same side but have a conflict-ridden history, and more. I think it could be really fun!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's a really interesting idea - I know it's not normal for Paizo to lock your PC's narrative in too much from the AP premise, but when they've done it before it has really worked for me. Without spoilers, Strange Aeons has a pretty restricted set of narratives available for the last several years of the PC's lives, and I've got a lot of positive feedback on that from people. In this case, saying all the PCs start off working for - though not necessarily agreeing with - an exploitative group that is harming nature gives you some really interesting room for different possible character arcs. Especially with how common 3-book APs are nowadays, it's much less of a risk than it used to be.
The tricky bit would be that it's still an AP - so they need to change their mind at the 'right' time - which is why I think your idea of them ending up opposing something as messed up as fiends is a good way to do it.[..]
I think the real triky thing here is that historically, AP were the PC morality is meant to shift within the story is difficult to pull off, since unless the player know what's expected of them and are really on board, they risk to either "switch side" before they're supposed to, or to refuse to do so when they should (Second Darkness being the most blatant exemple). It's going to feel really railroady if the narrative force them to work for the bad guys for a while, and then to switch at a specific point. This kind of story can be great, but work way better in movie, books or videogame.
Another (better, or at least safer) way of doing so in tabletop roleplay would be to bake this "side switching" in the basic synopsis of the AP itself, that is, to announce to the player that this is an AP where they play people that used to work with the bad guys but switched side. But this really limit the amount of "pre-switch" content the AP can include, because if this is announced in the player guide itself, then it's going to be limited to the backstory of the AP and maybe the introductory chapters, it can't really last longer when everyone know the "twist".
I would be excited to play an Anakin style switch from good to evil playthrough.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's a really interesting idea - I know it's not normal for Paizo to lock your PC's narrative in too much from the AP premise, but when they've done it before it has really worked for me. Without spoilers, Strange Aeons has a pretty restricted set of narratives available for the last several years of the PC's lives, and I've got a lot of positive feedback on that from people. In this case, saying all the PCs start off working for - though not necessarily agreeing with - an exploitative group that is harming nature gives you some really interesting room for different possible character arcs. Especially with how common 3-book APs are nowadays, it's much less of a risk than it used to be.
The tricky bit would be that it's still an AP - so they need to change their mind at the 'right' time - which is why I think your idea of them ending up opposing something as messed up as fiends is a good way to do it.[..]
I think the real triky thing here is that historically, AP were the PC morality is meant to shift within the story is difficult to pull off, since unless the player know what's expected of them and are really on board, they risk to either "switch side" before they're supposed to, or to refuse to do so when they should (Second Darkness being the most blatant exemple). It's going to feel really railroady if the narrative force them to work for the bad guys for a while, and then to switch at a specific point. This kind of story can be great, but work way better in movie, books or videogame.
Another (better, or at least safer) way of doing so in tabletop roleplay would be to bake this "side switching" in the basic synopsis of the AP itself, that is, to announce to the player that this is an AP where they play people that used to work with the bad guys but switched side. But this really limit the amount of "pre-switch" content the AP can include, because if this is announced in the player guide itself, then it's going to be limited to the backstory of the AP and maybe the...
Yeah, it's definitely a tricky one to pull off - and definitely safer if it's something everyone knows going in. If you wanted to extend how much pre-switch content there is, you might be able to have the PCs coerced into continuing to work for the 'bad guys' side at the start? They've already realised the problems of the people they work for and want to leave, but they need to do something to get the freedom they need to work against the people they work for. It wouldn't hold up for a whole volume of an AP, I think, but you could probably do it in an interesting way for a level or two - and it'd be a good way to get the major antagonists with a lot of screen time early on, plus it establishes a very personal reason for the players to care ("I remember when that villain refused to let us leave before we got him the McGuffin, I'm not just going to let him get away with this").
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, the set of themes and narratives I'm most interested in exploring (at least that the setting currently supports - I'm not going to suggest a Darklands AP until we get a little more information about them) is related to the Sarkoris Scar. I've been really glad to see Paizo making some changes to how it is presented over the years - the people of Sarkoris have a really interesting culture, and at times they were presented as almost entirely dead and gone, with the focus being on the Crusades and on the crusaders themselves. It has been lovely to see the Sarkorians get more narrative agency over the end of PF1 and the bits we've seen of them in PF2 - and I think it'd be a good time to do something more with this plot thread.
The obvious route for a Sarkorian AP is to focus on reclaiming the Sarkoris Scar from demonic infestation, and I do think that has to be part of the AP. I think it would be very interesting to explore the different ways that Sarkorians survived an apocalypse, and how that shapes their desires and methods for a new Sarkoris. Between the small groups who survived within the Scar itself, those who survived in neighbouring lands that faced threats from the Worldwound like the Realm of the Mammoth Lords, and those who went further afield (like the clan we know most about afaik, the Farheavens who fled to Iobaria), it seems like there would be pretty substantial differences.
Thematically, the narrative could focus on how one resolves the conflict between these different visions for a new Sarkoris, how (and whether) one should try to reclaim the previously-important, now fiendish settlements and locations of interest, and importantly I think how much to involve both Mendev and the ex-crusaders in this process (and the associated topics of how to handle the outright genocidal practices performed by the cursaders). I think it would be an AP that makes sense for the Wardens of Wildwood-style level 5-15 range - you start off powerful enough to be involved in reclaiming the Scar directly, but don't get so powerful that the most terrifying creatures in the Scar become trivial to you. Also on a purely straightforward level, the God Callers are very interesting and we've got new (and very well-written) lore on that front in the War of the Immortals, so that's an interesting part of the setting to be able to explore further. I imagine you could do it as a new take on Kingmaker - you become the head(s) of a new polity centred in the Scar, but I don't think that would necessarily be the most interesting way to do it. Pivoting you away from being the central decision makers into being one of a diverse group involved in making decisions seems more fitting for the themes being discussed - it's not about a small group of Sarkorians forcing their idea of what Sarkoris should be onto the rest, it's about a collective decision of the Sarkorians as to what their new polity should look like (and that's another reason I like the level 5-15 3-book AP range, it's more grounded in terms of the power the party will have).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's a really interesting idea - I know it's not normal for Paizo to lock your PC's narrative in too much from the AP premise, but when they've done it before it has really worked for me. Without spoilers, Strange Aeons has a pretty restricted set of narratives available for the last several years of the PC's lives, and I've got a lot of positive feedback on that from people. In this case, saying all the PCs start off working for - though not necessarily agreeing with - an exploitative group that is harming nature gives you some really interesting room for different possible character arcs. Especially with how common 3-book APs are nowadays, it's much less of a risk than it used to be.The tricky bit would be that it's still an AP - so they need to change their mind at the 'right' time - which is why I think your idea of them ending up opposing something as messed up as fiends is a good way to do it. Book 1 could be setting up the expectation that you're fighting some group that are being 'too extreme' in their protection of the wilderness against your employer's encroachment, only for the twist to be that your employers are doing some real nasty things that you can't work with - like your fiend example. Then the next two books can be about working against your former employers, potentially alongside the extremists you thought you were going to fight. It'd need a well-written player's guide - you'd need to make sure that everyone going in had a reason to distrust or dislike their employers to some degree. If it was pulled off well, I think it could be a very compelling narrative, and it could have a lot of interesting themes - the way that what might seem extreme can be a reasonable response when you're fully informed, the...
I would agree in that I find building characters more enjoyable when there are constraints in addition to choice. Like the grit that forms to become an oyster’s pearl, giving players a narrational constraint helps them develop interesting characters they might never have played without the AP’s narrational conceit.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would like to see an AP focusing on the First World, and that would be an obvious one to focus on gnomes for - not sure what bit of Golarion you'd want to put it in, but hopping in and out of the first world for adventuring, bargaining, or hunting could be cool (my brain handed me the mental image of a well that you climb down, only to descend a rope out of the sky)
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd be interested in another Political AP with players positioned as a minor noble house in somewhere like Taldor or Brevoy, trying to survive and thrive during a time of political tension and upheaval.
I'd be interested in another Epic Journey AP, in the style of Jade Regent, though with a different goal than "put an NPC on the throne", sometimes you just need to get home when the war is over (maybe a group leaving Sarkoris now the World Wound is closed to return to their home nation), or throw a ring into a volcano, it might not kill Tar Baphon but could help stop him expanding the grave lands further?
Exploration AP - Lets send the players somewhere weird, or unknown or unique to explore, report and cooperate as Pathfinders, meet strange new ancestries, forge new relationships for their factions. Lets do something that the Pathfinder Society is built for.
Rise of a New God - Players are chosen of a new divinity they can work together in session 0 to define, and the AP is about the party trying to get the religion/cult off the ground and find a space in the post Godwar upheavals.
Aroden's Legacy - What if Aroden had some mortal progeny, and with the recent events of the Godwar, their latent divinity is starting to awaken, is it time for the rise of a New God of Humanity, or even a new Pantheon?
Planar Invasion - What lies beyond the far reaches of the Shadow Plane that is now seeking entrance into the material? Can our PCs draw the disparate elements of Cheliax, Nidal and Ravounel to work together long enough to repel this invasion from beyond the Shadow Plane?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd be interested in another Political AP with players positioned as a minor noble house in somewhere like Taldor or Brevoy, trying to survive and thrive during a time of political tension and upheaval.
I really hope we can finally be a part of the big national divorce in Brevoy someday.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd be interested in another Political AP with players positioned as a minor noble house in somewhere like Taldor or Brevoy, trying to survive and thrive during a time of political tension and upheaval.I really hope we can finally be a part of the big national divorce in Brevoy someday.
That could be worked into a Choral the Conqueror AP. "His rise united the nation. His fall divided it."
Creative Director
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd be interested in another Political AP with players positioned as a minor noble house in somewhere like Taldor or Brevoy, trying to survive and thrive during a time of political tension and upheaval.I really hope we can finally be a part of the big national divorce in Brevoy someday.
Been trying to get a Brevoy SOMETHING off the ground for well over a decade as I think I've mentioned here before, but not every adventure idea gets to go to the front of the line, and some of them have to keep going to the back of the line for all sorts of reasons. But they're still in line!
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rise of a New God - Players are chosen of a new divinity they can work together in session 0 to define, and the AP is about the party trying to get the religion/cult off the ground and find a space in the post Godwar upheavals.
I would absolutely LOVE this. And the current divine upheaval makes the perfect opportunity.
Speaking of that region, I really really want an adventure in Iobara someday, it seems like there's quite a lot of potential there.
|
I'd be interested in another Political AP with players positioned as a minor noble house in somewhere like Taldor or Brevoy, trying to survive and thrive during a time of political tension and upheaval.I really hope we can finally be a part of the big national divorce in Brevoy someday.
I kindof hope we don't. Balkanization is bad, actually, even as a solution for national oppression.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, an AP about the Brevic civil war don't have to result in Brevoy splitting in lots of tiny countries. The country have two big hanging plot threads right now :
- The rising tension between the noble houses, with house Surtova trying to fill up the void left by Choral's line in an obvious powergrab, and other houses wanting to achieve their independance.
- The upcomming return of Choral himself, which have been hinted at since the original Kingmaker release, and was further pushed forward in 2e in the "lost omen legend" book.
In my eyes, the most obvious plot that arrise from this conjecture would be an AP that start as a "civil war" AP where the party support one of the noble house (probably the Aldori/Restov), in a setup close to the "war for the crown" AP, but end with Chorral crashing the party and trying to reconquer "his" kingdom, with the PC goal shifting to supporting a single house to having to unite all of them to face his draconic armies.
Afterward, the status quo of such story likely won't be a balkanisation of the region, but either the house that the PC supported becoming the de facto new rulers of Brevoy, or (more likely) Brevoy transitionning from a central monarchy to a federation of allied kingdoms, that still have a central "ruling council" of some kind that keep unity between all the regions.
Now that I think about it, I wonder if the rise of "3 parter" AP may have been a factor that pushed this one at the back of the line, like James said. This story of civil war turning into a union of all the side against a greater threat seems "too big" for a three parter, but perfect for a full 1-20 campaign.
|
Creative Director
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Now that I think about it, I wonder if the rise of "3 parter" AP may have been a factor that pushed this one at the back of the line, like James said. This story of civil war turning into a union of all the side against a greater threat seems "too big" for a three parter, but perfect for a full 1-20 campaign.
That factor isn't one of them. It's just had a hard time matching up these two windows of opportunity:
1) An Adventure Path OR standalone adventure slot in the schedule that's not being filled by something more important to the "meta" of the schedule, and...
2) A developer who wants to explore the area in an adventure. This factor is pretty important, since developer passion is a key part of what makes a product sing, and we try to give our developers (the folks on the Narrative team who are the ones who generally pitch ideas for ALL of the adventure lines) agency and input and ownership over the things they work on.
That all basically boils down to "we have more ideas than opportunities to explore them."
(For what it's worth, the plans I've had for a Brevoy thing have never been a 1 to 20 Adventure Path, but have for many years been a standalone adventure.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
(For what it's worth, the plans I've had for a Brevoy thing have never been a 1 to 20 Adventure Path, but have for many years been a standalone adventure.)
Oh, a standalone adventure is very different from what I pictured from this region, if you can, mind to tell us what would be the likely level range for that plan? Or at least wether it would be a low, mid or high level one?
|
Creative Director
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
(For what it's worth, the plans I've had for a Brevoy thing have never been a 1 to 20 Adventure Path, but have for many years been a standalone adventure.)Oh, a standalone adventure is very different from what I pictured from this region, if you can, mind to tell us what would be the likely level range for that plan? Or at least wether it would be a low, mid or high level one?
I don't have too much more to say on the subject publicly at the moment, alas; sorry!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Alas, this wasn't to be then.
Altho the comment about adventure needing to be important to the "meta" of the schedule is making me think. It's true that at least half, if not more, of the APs are directly linked with other close releases, that way the AP hype the lore/rule book and vice versa. So if we can guess the "future meta", we have more of a shot at guessing the AP. Furthermore, if we can influence the following lore/rule books, we get to (indirectly) influence whatever AP might come with them.
We already know what AP will be releasing for the next books we know of (spore war and the vampire AP), and they will cover the NPC codex, reprint of Guns & Gears and magic academy books. Appart from that last one, which may tie into the vampire AP, I don't expect much synergies for the other two books, NPC codex seems like it's going to be widely usefull but too broad to theme an adventure around.
I'm not sure exactly when Starfinder 2e official release is supposed to happen, but since it's apparently completely compatible with Pathfinder 2e, I'd say there's a good chance that we'll see a Numeria AP allowing the players to use some starfinder options around that time. It might also come with a "Lost Omen : Broken Lands" book, in which case we might see another AP in that region follow closely, like what happenned for Blood Lords and Outlaws of Alkensar, and such book would be a good opportunity for a Brevoy or (even better) a River Kingdom AP (I like my swamps and woods). Altho, it might instead be an occasion to go back to Sarkoris, in a "reclaim the land" story, which would tie back to the magic academy book again.
Lots of people are already speculating about the AP that might come with the newly revealed classes, and guessing a Geb/Nex conflict AP, but having a "runic" class along with the necromancer make me think of something more centered on western Avistan, so we might see the Tar Baphon plot being furthered, or an AP in new Thassilon (or both).
Well, I suppose that now all that I have left to do is to champion for a bellflower network "organisation book", or for another nature themed book if I want to see the themes that interest me the most. Since we just got a big nature rulebook, maybe a lorebook instead would do the trick? Something centered on the first world maybe, or the green faith... Altho I wouldn't say no to a second Howl of the Wild.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Along those lines: I think it's very interesting that we got Mythic rules, the Exemplar class, and the Centaur and Minotaur Ancestries all in such quick succession. That's pretty much all the tools for a very classic mythology-influenced Iblydos story... but is that meant to tide the folks over who want to make that themselves, or is the team trying to scaffold an AP themed around those options?
It makes for fun fandom divination, trying to read the implications of the release structure.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Or even PC build themes. We've done 3 of these so far—the "dwarf" and "orc" and "elf" themed campaigns. Would people be interested in us exploring that in other areas, but instead of focusing on ancestry themes, doing it with religions, or organizations, or even classes?
I think a Thieves Guild AP could be a lot of fun. All of the PCs start off as a member of the guild, and as they advance they deal with rival guilds, internal guild politics, burglary victims out for revenge, and (of course) the city guard. Eventually, the campaign could even shift into a more traditional "save the city from some villainous catastrophe" thing, but the twist would be that the PCs are uniquely placed to combat the threat because of the guild resources that they have, and the motivation of what it might mean for the guild (or even just them), when they become the heroes.
Traditionally, I could see tying this into a "halfling" themed campaign; I don't know if this appropriate for Golarion halflings, however.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Golarion Halflings have been historically held at the bottom of the social ladder, and while I'm not aware of any specific "halfling thief guild", they have very often been represented as member of such organisation, due to their low social standing and them being traditionally good rogues. Furthermore, the Bellflower Network is an "underground railway/resistance type of organisation that is very halfling themed, and have a lot of contacts with such organisation, as they need to rely on underworld connections and undercover actions.
So a "thieves guild", halfling themed AP could work very well as a campaign in golarion, for a more urban and undercover setting where the party must escape the law.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd be interested in another Political AP with players positioned as a minor noble house in somewhere like Taldor or Brevoy, trying to survive and thrive during a time of political tension and upheaval.I really hope we can finally be a part of the big national divorce in Brevoy someday.
Me too! It's been one of my favorite regions in the setting since the beginning and I'm eager for the YEARS of tantalizing hints and plot hooks to finally resolve with the dragons coming home to roost!
Necromancer class makes me want to kick some Nexian butt!! Burn down the flesh forges! All hail king Geb!
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
One thing to keep in mind with Civil War AP/Adventure is the question: "which side?", something that might not be easy to answer.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For Brevoy, I know it's a risk of making it a Game of Thrones clone, but I feel like making it one of the few places in Golarion where Apsu and Dahak have a significant worship base would help make it distinct from other areas.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
For Brevoy, I know it's a risk of making it a Game of Thrones clone, but I feel like making it one of the few places in Golarion where Apsu and Dahak have a significant worship base would help make it distinct from other areas.
I mean, it's a little late to keep Brevoy from being a Game of Thrones clone. It's been one pretty much from the word "go!" That said, I agree that it'd be interesting if Dahak and Apsu at least had some influence on the region, like maybe Apsu's blessing being treated as a divine right of kings for the Surtovas to claim (whether they actually have such a blessing not rally mattering so much as the appearance of it) or Dahak's cultists seeing a parallel to the inevitable conflict between their god and his father in the burgeoning civil war, making them eager to stoke the flames of conflict!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
For Brevoy, I know it's a risk of making it a Game of Thrones clone, but I feel like making it one of the few places in Golarion where Apsu and Dahak have a significant worship base would help make it distinct from other areas.
I'm starting to think that it's possible that Choral return and reconquer the country to turn it into a dragon-ruled land "off camera", or at least that we won't have an adventure where the players are able to prevent the takeover.
A "dragon land" ruled by a very powerfull draconic tyran might be more conductive to adventuring than "game of throne land". And the noble houses could then be split between those that decided to support the new order to keep their position, and those that were forced "underground" because they want to continue the fight and drive off Choral.
I would personally love a Geb v. Nex AP but would prefer that the NPC’s are the ones trying to stop such a confrontation. Otherwise I don’t see how you could do it without forcing players to support a particular side.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One thing to keep in mind with Civil War AP/Adventure is the question: "which side?", something that might not be easy to answer.
Didn't Paizo pull this off with aplomb in War for the Crown? Moreso than they did with Hell's Rebels/Hell's Vengeance anyway (where they chose to print a whole AP for each "side").
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like the nex-geb conflict would be even easier to have an AP for each side because while "cheliax vs rebel" is clearly evil vs good (and fighting good people isn't that popular), Geb (the country) feel only marginally more evil than Nex, so it's more easy to have the party "fight bad guys" no matter what side of the war they are on. Since both side are monstruous, it become easy to have an adventure where the "main villain" is something trully evil that even a party of pure hero would want to destroy, while keeping the "monstruous" part of their own side far from the party.
They could even split it in three AP, one where the player work for Geb against Nex (and where they get to use the undead options again), one where it's the opposite, and one where the party come from Alkensar or the Mana Waste and the goal is to stop the war before it trully goes back to how it was before and it devastate everything once again.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like the nex-geb conflict would be even easier to have an AP for each side because while "cheliax vs rebel" is clearly evil vs good (and fighting good people isn't that popular), Geb (the country) feel only marginally more evil than Nex, so it's more easy to have the party "fight bad guys" no matter what side of the war they are on. Since both side are monstruous, it become easy to have an adventure where the "main villain" is something trully evil that even a party of pure hero would want to destroy, while keeping the "monstruous" part of their own side far from the party.
They could even split it in three AP, one where the player work for Geb against Nex (and where they get to use the undead options again), one where it's the opposite, and one where the party come from Alkensar or the Mana Waste and the goal is to stop the war before it trully goes back to how it was before and it devastate everything once again.
Actually I like this idea. Why not an AP that’s like the “Claw of the Tyrant” compilation adventure.
Think of it: your players each build two characters on opposite sides of the war. The book is split, featuring adventures for either side, with one half dedicated to one and the other to the other. The final adventure then concludes with a Big bad/greater threat worse than both Geb and Nex (or maybe you’re forced to confront Geb and Nex) and both parties must work together to bring the conflict to a halt.
This allows GM’s to also modify the ending of they want one of the two nations to “win” or have the edge in the aftermath.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
We've had APs for Geb and Alkenstar already; I wouldn't be hurt if our POV for a hot war in the Impossible Lands was a Nexian one.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Another approach for the warring sides AP ideas is one in which the PCs have to try to prevent their own side from doing something truly awful, but they also have to make sure it doesn't collapse.
One thing to keep in mind with Civil War AP/Adventure is the question: "which side?", something that might not be easy to answer.Didn't Paizo pull this off with aplomb in War for the Crown? Moreso than they did with Hell's Rebels/Hell's Vengeance anyway (where they chose to print a whole AP for each "side").
Rebels and Vengeance weren't exactly each other opposite side.
War for the Crown forced the players in a specific faction.
I think we should fight Nex, and the adventure should be raising an army in Geb and scouting Nex in book 1, then full scale invasion of Nex in book 2, and in book 3, finish off the leaders and partial occupation of Quantum.
If we side with Nex, it would be very similar to Blood Lords where you fight Blood Lords in Geb. So more of the same.
But siding with Geb fighting in Nex is different and more interesting.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like, from a worldbuilding perspective, either side actually winning in a geb vs nex war would end up making golarion "worse" because the existence of the two country feels more interesting than either of the two winning over the other (or crumbling onto itself).
However, what could be interesting would be if they "traded blow" and managed to gain a foothold on each others land before reaching a new truce or other wise freezing the war for X or Y reason. Something like the fleshforge city falling under gebbite leadership, and the northern citadel city of Geb bieng seized by nexian forces both open up some very interesting possibilities.
Which is why I think that "two AP, one for each side" would work great for a conflict like that. Each can take place in a different region and end up with the party securing a massive victory for their side... which is balanced by the other AP securing a massive victory in another region for the opposite side. And having each of the country now own an "enclave" in the other territory, separated from their main land by the mana waste, which they struggle to control (and exploit) can make for great future stories.
Yes. The one thing I DON'T want is for the war to kick off and end in the same adventure. Things must change, but a war should take 3+ years to resolve. And Paizo can get feedback from the community before deciding where to go to resolve the war. I feel strongly that Geb is the more interesting faction to ally with, because I want to fight the horrors and mages of Nex more than more undead again.
Let the good vs. evil fight against undead campaign be against Tar-Baphon. And in Geb we can be the group of adventurers that joins undead.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I imagine there's at least a couple people who stand to starve if the production of Geb's fields is overly disrupted for amh length of time
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like, from a worldbuilding perspective, either side actually winning in a geb vs nex war would end up making golarion "worse" because the existence of the two country feels more interesting than either of the two winning over the other (or crumbling onto itself).
From an "in world" perspective, either side actually winning would make the victorious country a threat to their other neighbors.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
After finally getting my hands on War of Immortals and reading through the lore, there was a bit in the update on Garund that caught my eye. Appearently there is a pool that gives those who bathes in its waters glimpses of memories from those whom Gorum has killed. And one of those who bathed there was a pirate captain whom says they saw the memories of a long-dead Pirate demigod, and conversely learned of the location of a great treasure. The rub is that the treasure lies somewhere amongst other planes and not on Golarion.
This plot hook speaks to me immensely, and now I really want an AP about a interplanar treasure hunt utilizing pirate ships and racing to get the treasure before anyone else can. I feel like this adventure will tick so many boxes for me. Pirates, planes, sea-creatures. Heck yeah!
From an "in world" perspective, either side actually winning would make the victorious country a threat to their other neighbors.
Would it? Beyond their rivalry, neither country seems expansionist in the least, they both seems quite content in their position. I would expect that if one side "won" and absorbed the other, they would then spend decades if not century "integrating" it into their territory to secure an absolute victory with no possibility of rebellion, but that they would afterward remain mostly isolationist, trading with the rest of the world but not bothering trying to invade or conquer them.
After all, the reason of the conflict don't seems to be a power or land grab, but a mere ego war. They both could invade much "easier" neighbor to deal with if they actually wanted to expand, instead of focussing on the one neighboring country with a mastery of magic that rival theirs.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
From an "in world" perspective, either side actually winning would make the victorious country a threat to their other neighbors.Would it? Beyond their rivalry, neither country seems expansionist in the least, they both seems quite content in their position. I would expect that if one side "won" and absorbed the other, they would then spend decades if not century "integrating" it into their territory to secure an absolute victory with no possibility of rebellion, but that they would afterward remain mostly isolationist, trading with the rest of the world but not bothering trying to invade or conquer them.
After all, the reason of the conflict don't seems to be a power or land grab, but a mere ego war. They both could invade much "easier" neighbor to deal with if they actually wanted to expand, instead of focussing on the one neighboring country with a mastery of magic that rival theirs.
Geb's behavior as a state might be well-modeled as an extension of Geb's (the man's) personality (though even that isn't a sure thing; he's more active recently than he has been in past centuries), but Nex's government isn't headed by an eternal and unchanging leader and must be modeled by its neighbors as if it was a rational actor. That rational actor is kept from turning on its weaker neighbors not out of any policy of forbearance, but out of fear that if it was to turn its attention north or east its rival would plunge a dagger into its back from the south. But if that rational actor was to achieve hegemony by neutralizing its rival, it would be an unconscionable threat to its neighbors even if individual leaders might momentarily forbear to act on that threat. And Nex's neighbors are quite weak in comparison and have reason to fear Nex: Jalmeray is former Nexian territory and is currently a colonial holding of a distant power which may or may not be able or willing to defend it against Nexian irredentism. Katapesh is having internal troubles and is not in command of a large part of its notional territory. Holomog seems rather more secure in comparison than either Katapesh or Jalmeray, and probably has little to fear from an ascendant Geb.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Geb's behavior as a state might be well-modeled as an extension of Geb's (the man's) personality (though even that isn't a sure thing; he's more active recently than he has been in past centuries), but Nex's government isn't headed by an eternal and unchanging leader and must be modeled by its neighbors as if it was a rational actor. That rational actor is kept from turning on its weaker neighbors not out of any policy of forbearance, but out of fear that if it was to turn its attention north or east its rival would plunge a dagger into its back from the south. But if that rational actor was to achieve hegemony by neutralizing its rival, it would be an unconscionable threat to its neighbors even if individual leaders might momentarily forbear to act on that threat. And Nex's neighbors are quite weak in comparison and have reason to fear Nex: Jalmeray is former Nexian territory and is currently a colonial holding of a distant power which may or may not be able or willing to defend it against Nexian irredentism. Katapesh is having internal troubles and is not in...From an "in world" perspective, either side actually winning would make the victorious country a threat to their other neighbors.Would it? Beyond their rivalry, neither country seems expansionist in the least, they both seems quite content in their position. I would expect that if one side "won" and absorbed the other, they would then spend decades if not century "integrating" it into their territory to secure an absolute victory with no possibility of rebellion, but that they would afterward remain mostly isolationist, trading with the rest of the world but not bothering trying to invade or conquer them.
After all, the reason of the conflict don't seems to be a power or land grab, but a mere ego war. They both could invade much "easier" neighbor to deal with if they actually wanted to expand, instead of focussing on the one neighboring country with a mastery of magic that rival theirs.
Katapesh and, especially, Jalmeray have resources that could be quite useful to Nex, if freed from the need to constantly defend against Geb.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd also like something akin to a Doomed Company type situation, something akin to the Grey Wardens in Dragon Age, or the Night's Watch from A Song of Ice and Fire. Player characters recruited to a greater purposes but with the knowledge that joining this organisation means they are doomed, yet they must warn the world of some looming threat.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd also like something akin to a Doomed Company type situation, something akin to the Grey Wardens in Dragon Age, or the Night's Watch from A Song of Ice and Fire. Player characters recruited to a greater purposes but with the knowledge that joining this organisation means they are doomed, yet they must warn the world of some looming threat.
Tyrant's Grasp?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd also like something akin to a Doomed Company type situation, something akin to the Grey Wardens in Dragon Age, or the Night's Watch from A Song of Ice and Fire. Player characters recruited to a greater purposes but with the knowledge that joining this organisation means they are doomed, yet they must warn the world of some looming threat.Tyrant's Grasp?
I'm playing Tyrants Grasp and enjoying it!
But first - it's 1st Edition.
Second - I'd like the characters to tie to a larger organisation.