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Gladiator AP! Unashamedly rip-off the first movie.
Book 1: Players are soldiers or great empire, fighting barbarians or whatever. Somehow end up on bad side of the wicked ruler.
Book 2: Players made to fight in colliseum, ally with other gladiators, perhaps garner attention of a noble patron.
Book 3: Break out of colliseum, lead revolution to depose wicked ruler.
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3 part Goblin AP that really leans into how utterly ridiculous a Goblin AP should be.
Oh the Gladiator one sounds like fun! Don't think Paizo would do that now that they have abolished slavery across the inner sea and and are not mentioning it elsewhere, but I may have to homebrew it.
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Oh the Gladiator one sounds like fun! Don't think Paizo would do that now that they have abolished slavery across the inner sea and and are not mentioning it elsewhere, but I may have to homebrew it.
Considering the demographics of real gladiators (some, but not many, were free people), you could very well have a gladiator AP where the fighters are free (but high-risk) or debt-indentured, and part of the AP involves messing with your awful boss to improve the working conditions of the arena. Healing magic can cost money, that's a great way to make sure your best performers can't leave!
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{. . .}
3 part Goblin AP that really leans into how utterly ridiculous a Goblin AP should be.
It's up to the Goblins to uncover a grand conspiracy by the Blackfingers, the Skinsaw Cult, the Gray Masters, and the Reapers of Reputation. Because even if Goblins were traditionally seen as being Evil like the divine patron of these conspirators, I just can't see Goblins getting along with Nobooger.
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{. . .}
3 part Goblin AP that really leans into how utterly ridiculous a Goblin AP should be.
It's up to the Goblins to uncover a grand conspiracy by the Blackfingers, the Skinsaw Cult, the Gray Masters, and the Reapers of Reputation. Because even if Goblins were traditionally seen as being Evil like the divine patron of these conspirators, I just can't see Goblins getting along with Nobooger.
instead of an AP, one of those new adventure books w/ 4 seperate adventures might be more fun for this concept.
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One theme I think it might be time for: An "indirect sequel" to the Legacy of Fire AP.
I was reading through the War of Immortals and a paragraph in the Mythic Gazetteer (pages 89-90) caught my eye: "As warshards fell on Katapesh, a single piece was pulled into the open caldera of Pale Mountain. This shard caused the exposed remains of Xotani the Firebleeder to stir. While the Spawn of Rovagug remains dead, the fact that its bones quiver and have caused smaller Xotanispawn to emerge from the mountain is very alarming. A figure from Katapesh’s past, the powerful jaathoom Nefeshti (inspirational female jaathoom cleric of Gozreh), has taken it upon herself to investigate Xotani’s state and gather a force to destroy the spawn’s remains once and for all. While a few powerful individuals are already working alongside Nefeshti, she’s hoping to add more to the ranks of her Templars of the Reborn Winds."
It's been a long time since the Legacy of Fire AP (the last D&D 3.5 AP) and an indirect sequel (possibly using PCs from the Outlaws of Alkenstar?) would probably be a good fit for the new mythic rules. The PCs investigate events around Pale Mountain, become Templars of the Reborn Winds (mythic), help or be the primary ones to destroy the Xotanispawn, recover the warshard, and either prevent Xotani from rising again or fight an updated mythic version (if things go awry). The Eternal Legend or Wildspell mythic destinies could probably be appropriate choices when becoming mythic as a Templar at 12th-13th level, but the AP could also include a mythic destiny aligned with genies and/or the elements (possibly even being compatible with the kineticist).
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One theme I think it might be time for: An "indirect sequel" to the Legacy of Fire AP.
I was reading through the War of Immortals and a paragraph in the Mythic Gazetteer (pages 89-90) caught my eye: "As warshards fell on Katapesh, a single piece was pulled into the open caldera of Pale Mountain. This shard caused the exposed remains of Xotani the Firebleeder to stir. While the Spawn of Rovagug remains dead, the fact that its bones quiver and have caused smaller Xotanispawn to emerge from the mountain is very alarming. A figure from Katapesh’s past, the powerful jaathoom Nefeshti (inspirational female jaathoom cleric of Gozreh), has taken it upon herself to investigate Xotani’s state and gather a force to destroy the spawn’s remains once and for all. While a few powerful individuals are already working alongside Nefeshti, she’s hoping to add more to the ranks of her Templars of the Reborn Winds."
It's been a long time since the Legacy of Fire AP (the last D&D 3.5 AP) and an indirect sequel (possibly using PCs from the Outlaws of Alkenstar?) would probably be a good fit for the new mythic rules. The PCs investigate events around Pale Mountain, become Templars of the Reborn Winds (mythic), help or be the primary ones to destroy the Xotanispawn, recover the warshard, and either prevent Xotani from rising again or fight an updated mythic version (if things go awry). The Eternal Legend or Wildspell mythic destinies could probably be appropriate choices when becoming mythic as a Templar at 12th-13th level, but the AP could also include a mythic destiny aligned with genies and/or the elements (possibly even being compatible with the kineticist).
You're right, ignoring the ongoing protracted people's war in the country is just the ticket.
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No, it's just a different story that has no connection with Xotani, Nefeshti, or the fallen warshard; and adding mythic to a "protacted people's war" is like cracking an egg with a sledgehammer.
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Well, since Warden of Wildwood wasn't this, and since Spore War is shapping up to be an anti demon AP more than anything, I'd like to see a "nature vs civilisation" AP where the PC are expected to side with nature. I seriously think that there is a demand for such a story, but so far it wasn't really delivered at all. And there's plenty of villainous and industrious country/groups in pathfinder that can play the role of villain for such an AP, so it's not like it would need to be an "evil party" AP or anything of the like.
Such AP could also be an excuse to feature daemons as important/final antagonist, which so far isn't really a proeminent part of any AP, as I think they make a pretty great thematical "end game" threat against a nature focussed party. First they face some human/mortals group destroying nature for short term profit, using daemons as minions because it fit with their neutral evil opportunistic and short sighted plans. Then in the last module, the primary antagonist shift, as the daemons see that their collaborator are being beaten and are no longer usefull, so they decide to unleash their apocalyptical plans, that they were able to devise specifically because the opportunistic mortal brought them here, but that blight both these mortal and the natural world alike, and the party have to stop them.
No, it's just a different story that has no connection with Xotani, Nefeshti, or the fallen warshard; and adding mythic to a "protacted people's war" is like cracking an egg with a sledgehammer.
Actually, other than Paizo's reluctance to do any more 6 part APs(*), why not have the 2 plot threads interact? It would be highly likely to happen spontaneously, given the events happening simultaneously in roughly the same region.
(*)Maybe the way to do this would be as 2 3 part APs that are fairly linked together, but have room for different or partially overlapping PC groups to be in each -- after all, it's not as if that doesn't happen spontaneouly to some extent in the PbPs I used to follow on these boards in considerable numbers.
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Well, since Warden of Wildwood wasn't this, and since Spore War is shapping up to be an anti demon AP more than anything, I'd like to see a "nature vs civilisation" AP where the PC are expected to side with nature. I seriously think that there is a demand for such a story, but so far it wasn't really delivered at all. And there's plenty of villainous and industrious country/groups in pathfinder that can play the role of villain for such an AP, so it's not like it would need to be an "evil party" AP or anything of the like.
Such AP could also be an excuse to feature daemons as important/final antagonist, which so far isn't really a proeminent part of any AP, as I think they make a pretty great thematical "end game" threat against a nature focussed party. First they face some human/mortals group destroying nature for short term profit, using daemons as minions because it fit with their
neutral evilopportunistic and short sighted plans. Then in the last module, the primary antagonist shift, as the daemons see that their collaborator are being beaten and are no longer usefull, so they decide to unleash their apocalyptical plans, that they were able to devise specifically because the opportunistic mortal brought them here, but that blight both these mortal and the natural world alike, and the party have to stop them.
Too close to RL politics to ever happen IMO.
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Too close to RL politics to ever happen IMO.
"Nature fighting back against industrial destruction" (with nature as the unquestionnable good guys, and the destructive industry as the unquestionnable bad guys) is a staple of fiction for decades now, including in some very, very mainstream works, like Lord of the Ring, Final Fantasy 7, or even Avatar. I'd be surprised if Paizo see this topic as "too hot to handle", especially since more people agree with this view now than ever before, with people in first world countries witnessing now firsthand the effect of environmental destruction.
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Too close to RL politics to ever happen IMO."Nature fighting back against industrial destruction" (with nature as the unquestionnable good guys, and the destructive industry as the unquestionnable bad guys) is a staple of fiction for decades now, including in some very, very mainstream works, like Lord of the Ring, Final Fantasy 7, or even Avatar. I'd be surprised if Paizo see this topic as "too hot to handle", especially since more people agree with this view now than ever before, with people in first world countries witnessing now firsthand the effect of environmental destruction.
On the one hand, you're absolutely right; on the other, Paizo already used what is perhaps their best opportunity to address the issue, to bothsides it.
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On the one hand, you're absolutely right; on the other, Paizo already used what is perhaps their best opportunity to address the issue, to bothsides it.
Yeah, I was pretty disapointed with the direction they chose for Warden of Wildwood too. I think it's partly because of the location of said Wildwood, right in between two of the most "overall good aligned" nation, so they couldn't really go full "nature defender" without either painting those nation as villain, or making this an AP for evil party, which would have been even more tone deaf.
But even so, making the villain a "pro nature extremist that is going too far" was really a poor choice IMO, probably on the level of making Council of Thieves an AP in Cheliax about defending the status quo. Everyone I know that was interested by WoW was dissapointed with how the story went. It didn't help that the player guide also said that it was a "defend the nature against civilisation" AP.
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probably on the level of making Council of Thieves an AP in Cheliax about defending the status quo.
It wasn't. Even the worst endings where you don't win municipal autonomy (self-government; home rule) and new municipal leadership for Westcrown still end the shadow beast plague and dissolve the Council of Thieves' deep state (the Council is restored in the Adventurer's Guide, but not with the same tendrils). Upselling the scope of the change you'll make, and misrepresenting who the villains will be is not the same as "defending the status quo." Neither is finding your work invalidated by later events (the Glorious Recalamation's upstaging the Children of Westcrown, then the government crushing everybody in a brutal counterrevolution, and the subsequent aforementioned resurrection of the Council).
The best example of a political AP about defending the status quo (from an aberrant tyrant) remains Curse of the Crimson Throne. It's also incredibly popular. Funny, that.
I don't have quite the same interpreation of CoT ending as you.
EDIT :
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I don't have quite the same interpreation of CoT ending as you.
I think you're drastically overstating the ability or willingness of Council's villains to be opposition to Thrune. The Council itself never was (being controlled opposition at best), and the villains' takeover and purge of the Council was in service of petty personal revenge and not any attempt to change that. And winning some light and air for the exercise of political freedom, even within bounds, which is accomplished by the destruction of the shadow beasts, is still a more positive change than any assumed to have take place after Curse.
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The thing is, I don't think the "assumed post AP status quo" really matter in this discussion quite as much as the action accomplished by the PC within the AP itself.
But I think we should get back on topic, as what we're talking about don't have much to do with the subject of this thread anymore.
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On the one hand, you're absolutely right; on the other, Paizo already used what is perhaps their best opportunity to address the issue, to bothsides it.Yeah, I was pretty disapointed with the direction they chose for Warden of Wildwood too. I think it's partly because of the location of said Wildwood, right in between two of the most "overall good aligned" nation, so they couldn't really go full "nature defender" without either painting those nation as villain, or making this an AP for evil party, which would have been even more tone deaf.
But even so, making the villain a "pro nature extremist that is going too far" was really a poor choice IMO, probably on the level of making Council of Thieves an AP in Cheliax about defending the status quo. Everyone I know that was interested by WoW was dissapointed with how the story went. It didn't help that the player guide also said that it was a "defend the nature against civilisation" AP.
Or maybe it's an AP about extremism.
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I mean, you are absolutely right, it is an AP about extremism, but it's not what the player guide was selling with :
Some Adventure Paths assume the PCs are heroes fighting to right wrongs or defend the weak; this is not one of them. The people attending the Greenwood Gala have one thing in common: they are defenders of nature. The clash in attitudes and morality among attendees is a source of underlying tension at the festivities and a major source of conflict within the campaign itself. While your character shouldn’t be utterly depraved, selfish, or murderous, the campaign does accommodate a wide range of mortalities, from peace-loving wardens to anti-colonial assassins. Whatever the case, your character should care about protecting the Verduran Forest (and nature in general), and it’s highly encouraged to befriend and care for your fellow party members.
The player guide tell you that you can be quite hardline as long as you mesh well with the party and your goal is to defend nature, it's bizarre that the AP have you fight only "pro nature extremist" afterward.
It'd be like if in wrath of the righteous or the incoming spore war, you didn't actually fight demons but instead the whole campaign was against overzealous inquisitors taking demon hunting too far. Yeah, sure, overzealous inquisitor can be good villains, and of course witch hunt are bad... but it's not what you sign up for when you decide to play the "crusading AP".
And I really don't see why a group like the lumber consortium, or another similar nature destroying group of ruthless profiteer can be the main villain of an AP where you defend nature. As I said higher, such groups used as villain have been a stape of fiction since before the rise of tabletop RPG, it's hardly a "hardline extremist political take".
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No, it's just a different story that has no connection with Xotani, Nefeshti, or the fallen warshard; and adding mythic to a "protacted people's war" is like cracking an egg with a sledgehammer.Actually, other than Paizo's reluctance to do any more 6 part APs(*), why not have the 2 plot threads interact? It would be highly likely to happen spontaneously, given the events happening simultaneously in roughly the same region.
(*)Maybe the way to do this would be as 2 3 part APs that are fairly linked together, but have room for different or partially overlapping PC groups to be in each -- after all, it's not as if that doesn't happen spontaneouly to some extent in the PbPs I used to follow on these boards in considerable numbers.
Because trying to tell two stories (unless they are very closely related) in a single AP runs the risk of a "bait and switch" like Second Darkness (start running a gambling operation in Riddleport, but then have to save the elves, who treat the PCs poorly, and the rest of world) or a "disappearing circus" like Extinction Curse (where the PCs basically have to abandon what was their primary focus to deal with the "real" story). Many PCs created for a "protracted people's war" will end up asking why they should care about some genies or a volcano far from the "important" parts of Katapesh.
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Because trying to tell two stories (unless they are very closely related) in a single AP runs the risk of a "bait and switch" like Second Darkness (start running a gambling operation in Riddleport, but then have to save the elves, who treat the PCs poorly, and the rest of world) or a "disappearing circus" like Extinction Curse (where the PCs basically have to abandon what was their primary focus to deal with the "real" story). Many PCs created for a "protracted people's war" will end up asking why they should care about some genies or a volcano far from the "important" parts of Katapesh.No, it's just a different story that has no connection with Xotani, Nefeshti, or the fallen warshard; and adding mythic to a "protacted people's war" is like cracking an egg with a sledgehammer.Actually, other than Paizo's reluctance to do any more 6 part APs(*), why not have the 2 plot threads interact? It would be highly likely to happen spontaneously, given the events happening simultaneously in roughly the same region.
(*)Maybe the way to do this would be as 2 3 part APs that are fairly linked together, but have room for different or partially overlapping PC groups to be in each -- after all, it's not as if that doesn't happen spontaneouly to some extent in the PbPs I used to follow on these boards in considerable numbers.
Even if the stories are closely intertwined in an AP, it can still have problems - Council of Thieves for instance.
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WoW I felt gave too much of a bait and switch. I’m fine with it cuz that means my table is more likely to enjoy it (they doubt anthropogenic climate change) but I myself was disappointed because I expected many more exploitative antagonists from the AP.
I like that we explore the plane of wood and I actually like Zibok’s role, but the storytelling was convoluted and often unclear.
The closest AP to an eco-fantasy narrative currently is Quest for the Frozen Flame.
I expect/hope we see more AP’s outside of the Inner Sea region. Paizo has recently worked very hard to expand on areas outside the Inner Sea and I’d like to see this continue.
I don’t need to argue on behalf of Arcadia (it has motivated advocates enough) but Vudra, Kellesh, Iblydos and other parts of Casmaron seem ripe for an AP.
Happy to see a return to Azlant in the near future.aybe I’m seeing things but they seem to be doing one non-Inner-Sea-Region AP a year. I approve.
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I expect/hope we see more AP’s outside of the Inner Sea region. Paizo has recently worked very hard to expand on areas outside the Inner Sea and I’d like to see this continue.
I don’t need to argue on behalf of Arcadia (it has motivated advocates enough) but Vudra, Kellesh, Iblydos and other parts of Casmaron seem ripe for an AP.
We've finally got all the parts necessary for Iblydos, which feels quite promising!
But yes, I'm loudly banging on the Arcadia (and more specifically, Razatlani) drum.
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I expect/hope we see more AP’s outside of the Inner Sea region. Paizo has recently worked very hard to expand on areas outside the Inner Sea and I’d like to see this continue.
I don’t need to argue on behalf of Arcadia (it has motivated advocates enough) but Vudra, Kellesh, Iblydos and other parts of Casmaron seem ripe for an AP.
We've finally got all the parts necessary for Iblydos, which feels quite promising!
But yes, I'm loudly banging on the Arcadia (and more specifically, Razatlani) drum.
Aye, and precisely. You’ve got Arcadian interests well and covered heh.
I suspect the actual issue with Council of Thieves is that it came out long before Hells Rebels, so the people who wanted to be playing Hells Rebels ended up playing council of thieves, an AP that is definitely not about people rebelling against the hellish rule of Chelliax, and definitely is about... well, a council made up of thieves. Whilst this is blindingly obvious (see previous sentence) now you can choose between the two, I suspect a lot of the people dissappointed in playing CoT were so not because it broadly preserves the rule of central government in Chelliax, but because they didn't, at the time, have the option to play an adventure which wasn't actually about the shady underworld of the nation's former capital. Though I also think it might be that some of the older APs are a bit less committed to the PCs having 'good' alignment (which is somewhat ironic given that the newest ones are in an edition with no alignments at all, they're just less likely to give you an intro where you're probably playing a low-grade criminal in a real dump of a city).
That’s an interesting point, as you’re essentially saying that each region has a few core core story beats players are most excited to play. A region can host many more adventures ofc but a play group will likely be disappointed if one of the region’s primary adventures fail to fulfil their basic expectations.
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I think that's more true for some region than for others. Cheliax have an incredibly strong hook with the infernal rule, it being an overt evil empire, etc, having an AP happen here that isn't centered around these elements feels weird, because it ignore the blatant "adventure hook" that's present here. Likewise for mendev before the worldwound was closed, it would have felt really weird to have an AP here that's not directly about the worldwound when it was still open, because any other plothook would have to compete with the armies of demons the player know are knocking next door.
A small scenario is fine, as those are often "just" the party reacting to something happenning pretty much immediately in front of them, so we understand why this take precedence over the bigger (but more distant) hook of the region, but a whole campaign like an AP really have to fight an uphill battle to constantly justify why the AP scenario matter more than the global region hook.
Some region (most of them I think) however don't have such strong "story hook", so the player don't experience the same kind of betrayal of expectation when the AP isn't centered around the region "main hook". Varisia is very thassilon-themed, but the runelords aren't an immediate, overbearing concern (well, in south varisia at least), so having adventure there that have nothing to do with thassilon or ancient ruins don't feel weird. Most region are like that I think, where most player (who are invested in the lore) expect a certain "vibe" of adventure and a certain atmosphere depending on the region, but dont necessarily expect a specific story (and it doesn't feel as dissonant if the vibe of the campaign end up being very different from the one they imagined).
I think that's more true for some region than for others. Cheliax have an incredibly strong hook with the infernal rule, it being an overt evil empire, etc, having an AP happen here that isn't centered around these elements feels weird, because it ignore the blatant "adventure hook" that's present here. Likewise for mendev before the worldwound was closed, it would have felt really weird to have an AP here that's not directly about the worldwound when it was still open, because any other plothook would have to compete with the armies of demons the player know are knocking next door.
I think you just described the core problem with Council Of Thieves (not that it didn't have a few others).
The problem for players wanting to overthrowing the power of House Thrune in Westcrown in Council of Thieves is that if they succeed in doing so, it will be only extremely temporary, because then Hell's Vengeance just starts early. And from observing a Council of Thieves PbP on these messageboards, I got the impression that this is actually clear even if only implicit.
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The problem for players wanting to overthrowing the power of House Thrune in Westcrown in Council of Thieves is that if they succeed in doing so, it will be only extremely temporary, because then Hell's Vengeance just starts early. And from observing a Council of Thieves PbP on these messageboards, I got the impression that this is actually clear even if only implicit.
This reason don't change the fact that the diabolic rule is a gigantic plothook that loom over CoT (and any other adventure that happen in cheliax), that the party is supposed to simply ignore for the AP to properly function. It doesn't matter that toppling it is an unrealistic goal, it's one that very clearly present itself, long before the party ever learn about the true villain of that AP, and it being unrealistic and difficult to reach just make it more tantalising as a campaign goal.
Quite a few regions of Golarion in 1e worked the same actually, a campaign here that didn't adress the big region "baked in" plothook would have felt weirdly out of place, because said hook would have loomed over any other adventure taking place there. Mendev and the worldwound as I said above for exemple, or Numeria and the technic league. But a lot of these actually had their plothook "answered" already, leaving the region more free, in that more stories can now take place there without having to justify "why this campaign isn't about the bigger plothook instead". The worldwound is closed, the technic league was disbanded, Irrisen isn't ruled by an evil witch queen anymore (but a good one instead), etc etc.
That's not to say that having such strong "plothook" baked in the lore of some region is necessarily a negative, it make the region core conflict more clear, it make it easier for GM to create their own story in that place, and it create villains that are overall "stronger" than ones that were made specifically to fit the need of a specific story/AP, because having them exist beyond the page of the campaign make them feel more important and alive. I understand why Paizo don't want to create a campaign that is just "topple Cheliax", since this country existing as a continuous force of evil in the world is great for worldbuilding and open quite a lot of possible opportunity of future stories, but the catch is that as long as Cheliax exist as it does now, any adventure taking place in it will have to gravitate around the Thrune/infernal dictatorship, or else it will struggle to continuously justify why this isn't a focus.
Off the top of my head, the regions that have such an overwhelming looming plothook that any AP taking place in it will have to adress it are :
- Cheliax (duh)
- Nidal (same reason as Cheliax, but more pointy)
- The Eye of Terror (it's pretty much the 2e equivalent of the worldwound with undead instead of demons as far as I'm concerned)
- Geb (which show that "adressing the plothook" don't necessarily mean "toppling the bad guy", Blood Lords do it by having "becoming part of the evil council" be the goal of most of the AP)
- Kyonin (soon to be adressed in spore war)
- Razmiran (self explanatory)
alright, maybe not "good", but at least it's not an "impossible to overlook tyran" type of deal like her predecessor.
Wardens of Wildwood kinda wanted to be a nature hero AP, but you spend more time fighting eco-extremists than exploitative institutions/individuals.