Do people use the two-4-one skill feats...

[VoodistMonk]

I, personally, really like the feats that grant bonuses to multiple skills. I find them more useful than Skill Focus, unless Skill Focus is a prerequisite for something else I am pursuing.

The actual difference between the +4 @ 10 ranks instead of a +6 is negligible in most cases involving a skill that you have put 10 ranks into.

What is everyone else's thoughts on these feats, or feats like them?

Here's a list of the ones I know of, in case anyone cares...

+2/+4 Feats:

Acrobat (Acrobatics, Fly)
Alertness (Perception, Sense Motive)
Animal Affinity (Handle Animal, Ride)
Athletic (Climb, Swim)
Deceitful (Bluff, Disguise)
Deft Hands (Disable Device, Sleight-o-Hand)
Magical Aptitude (Spellcraft, UMD)
Persuasive (Diplomacy, Intimidate)
Scholar (any two Knowledge skills)
Self-Sufficient (Heal, Survival)
Street Smarts (Know Local, Sense Motive)

Multiple Skill Feats:
Sea Legs (Acrobatics, Climb, and Swim)
Voice of Sibyl (Bluff, Diplomacy, Perform Oratory)

There are probably more that I haven't listed and/or don't know about. Feel free to let me know of any I missed.

[Quixote]

I've done away with all of them in my games and replaced them with a houserule'd Skill Focus: +2 to four, +3 to two or +5 to one. Can take multiple times, max of +5 to any one skill. Bonuses increase at 10 ranks.

They go from being mediocre at best to legitimately appealing to a variety of characters.

Most people in my games go for the +2 to four version; it's the biggest bang for your buck and promotes a more all-comers strategy to character building. And I figure, two feats to get +5/+5/+2/+2 or +4/+4/+4/+4 is fine by me if you really want.
But sometimes you just want to spend one feat to get that one skill sky-high.

[Meirril]

Honestly I find that skill focus and other boosts to skill ranks are a waste of a feat, unless your character is focused on using a skill or two.

Even then, the skill focus only matters if the DC scales faster than 1:1 with growing CR. The higher level you get, the easier it is to get permanent bonuses to skills with items and temporary boosts from spells and consumables.

Feats are valuable resources that most characters depend on for combat. Skills, well skills have less impact. And for the time where you absolutely need to make a skill check, you can spend a hero point. One skill check in diplomacy or KS: Nobility could make or break a campaign. But its just one roll. Combat...you roll that a lot more. You can't afford to use a hero point 'when its important' because you make so many rolls.

[MrCharisma]

Yeah the only time I've taken Skill Focus was when I was a Half Elf who didn't really want an exotic weapon and didn't need a +2 to will saves (both alternate racial traits that replace Skill Focus).

I considered it on my Bloodrager for Intimidate, then I found Intimidating Prowess.

For me I want my feats to be more than just a small numerical bonus to a skill or 2. I want them to give me a new option. Even Power Attack doesn't excite me (I take it, but it's not really exciting).

If I had to choose I'd say the 2-skill feats are generally better (you get more from it), but since you can't make custom feats you have to want both skills or you're basically getting a bad version of Skill Focus (if I want Bluff but not Disguise why would I take Deceitful?).

They're ok. Compared to Skill Focus I think they're about even (if you need both skills take them, if not take Skill Focus), but I don't know many players who take them.

[avr]

Either skill focus or the 2-skill bonus feats are things I'd only take as prereqs. A skill heavy game uses a lot of skills not just one or two, and a combat-heavy game wants combat-time feats. Which aren't the same as combat feats, true.

[glass]

avr wrote:

Either skill focus or the 2-skill bonus feats are things I'd only take as prereqs. A skill heavy game uses a lot of skills not just one or two, and a combat-heavy game wants combat-time feats. Which aren't the same as combat feats, true.

Usually, this.

There are occasional exceptions, when a character gets specific additional benefits from a particular spell. For example, I have an Artificer (adapted from 3.5) in my RotRL game, and a lot of their features (including their ability to make items) are based on Use Magic Device. So he has Skill Focus (UMD).

_
glass.

[SheepishEidolon]

I want to like them, but I am never happy with the available combinations. Sometimes there is a very interesting skill, but paired with a second one of, well, secondary importance. Bluff + Intimidate would be a staggering combination - mainly for combat application, to be honest.

Maybe these feats are like crossbows: You don't just add them to your build, you build around their variety of small benefits.

Scholar is by the way totally outclassed by Breadth of Experience (+2 to all Knowledge & Profession checks, even untrained), although that feat is racially locked (dwarf / elf / gnome). Makes Scholar even less appealing...

[Lelomenia]

There are a fair number of builds that want to max out one skill really hard, and skill focus is actually okay for that (it stacks). But to consider a 2-for-one you’d probably need to have one that (1) helped your primary skill (2) had a good secondary skill. Most of the 2-for-ones appear pretty unlikely to hit both of those for any particular build, although i could imagine a cornugon smashing face character taking Persuasive (diplomacy would be worth giving up a bit off your intimidate) or a snake styler taking Alertness (perception is often relevant). Other problem is that those skill builds are commonly feat intense already, which makes finding room for a skill feat hard.

[Ryze Kuja]

I've found that Stealth builds make great use From Skill Focus AND Stealthy feats. But other than that, Skill Focus and the other +2/+4's aren't worth it. There's so many other feats that eclipse them.

I like that house rule Quixote.

[Derklord]

Lelomenia wrote:

There are a fair number of builds that want to max out one skill really hard, and skill focus is actually okay for that (it stacks).

Same here. Skills that aren't combat relevant aren't worth spending a feat on, and builds that use skills in combat, it's only one. I could see an intimidate build, or a Stalker Vigilante with Norgorber’s Silent Shiv's advanced benefit to use the "only against unaware enemies" talents, or somebuild like that, selecting Skill Focus, but not the +2/+2 feats.

[Wyran Tegus]

My group is playing through War for the Crown and making heavy use of the Persona system, which grants you a bonus feat once you have 5 ranks in a facet. Unfortunately we found some of the bonus feats lacking. We didn't do away with the base options, but we opened it up so that these two-for-one feats became possible bonus feat options. Since you can swap that bonus feat with each persona phase, being able to boost a skill when you know you're getting into a particular situation has been super helpful.

[VoodistMonk]

I like the idea of offering the two-4-one skill feats as bonus feats.

Maybe a bonus social feat at every stat bump?

I would probably add the Vigilante Intrigue feats to the list, as well...

Blustering Bluff, But a Scratch, Call Truce, Confabulist, Criminal Reputation, Cutting Humiliation, Esoteric Linguistics, Intoxicating Flattery, Ironclad Logic, Nerve-Racking Negotiator, Orator, Persuasive Bribery, Play to the Crowd, Quick Favor, Rhetorical Flourish, Sense Assumptions, Sense Relationships, or Street Smarts.

More than likely not include Skill Focus simply because it is a prerequisite for Eldritch Heritage and all the shenanigans that comes with it.

[Ryan Freire]

I mean, Skills are either can you get to like 20 while taking 10 or if you don't hit 35+ regularly don't even bother so if i take a feat to bump skill points i usually go for the bigger option.

One of the systems ive played with to make them, and skills in general more worthwhile was to grant skill unlocks to all class skills for anyone 4level caster or lower. Then treat any bonus to a skill, from a feat, as pseudo ranks for each skill unlock. Ergo if you take skill focus + one of the +2 to 2 skill feats, you're 5 ranks higher on the skill mastery chart. You get the level 20 bonus at 10 if you invest 2 feats and a skill point per level.

[Mudfoot]

Ultimately, it's a matter of having a character with few skill points and feats to burn. Nobody else will bother.

Many of the 2/2 feats have unappealing combinations (Sleight of Hand? Disguise? Swim?) so are almost always worse than Skill Focus. But even the good ones aren't good enough to be worth taking.

I'm considering Magical Aptitude for my 9-Int half-elf sorcerer who has to live with a meagre one skill point per level and isn't otherwise desperate for feats. But it's not top of the list. I can imagine a low-Int paladin taking Alertness or Persuasive for similar reasons.

[Mysterious Stranger]

When I want to create an NPC that is supposed to be particularly skilled at something I will often use them in combination with Skill focus. Honestly I use skill focus more often than the feats that give a bonus to two skills. Skill focus works really well with high level human NPC’s when they take the focused study alternative racial trait. Getting three feats for the price of one at 16th level allows for some very skilled characters.

[Yargoyle AKA Endarire]

To my knowledge, the only time I purposely took Skill Focus was when I was in a game with little source material allowed and I had simply taken every other feat I wanted.

In organized play, I took Skill Focus: UMD as my Half-Elf Sorcerer because he took the False Priest archetype which was very UMD-focused.

In my house rules, I've increased the benefit of Skill Focus to give +5 and an auto-reroll (AKA D&D 5e's 'advantage') on the skill chosen.

[Heather 540]

I considered a couple for my warpriest, but I decided the combat feats where more important to the build. I did take Cunning though, just to get one more skill rank to put where needed.

[blahpers]

I like Magical Aptitude. My crafter druid took it before he even needed it for Pathfinder Savant. Gave him a nice boost at low levels to identifying enemy spells and using all those arcane scrolls and wands we kept finding.

[Name Violation]

i use humans with focused study (skill focus at 1, 8, and 12) all the time.

i take skill focus quite often. on other characters. even had a PFS
halfling cavalier/rogue/bard/ranger/battle herald with several skill focuses (ride, intimidate, handle animal)

i HATE the +2 to 2 skills feats. Not even for any rational reason. I just don't have a use for them to even exist. I'll just never use one unless i absolutely need to stack magical aptitude with skill focus UMD and Dangerously curious (or MAAAAAYBE pragmatic activator).

[Mark Hoover 330]

I like taking Alertness. Or rather, I like playing characters with Familiars, which in turn grants Alertness. Had a half-elf wizard with stats that we rolled so she ended up with a starting Wis of 15. She took an Owl familiar and her bonus Skill Focus feat as SF: Perception. Finally, as one of her traits she took Seeker to gain the skill as a Class skill with another +1 from the Trait.

At level 1 she started with Perception +12, +15 if she was standing in Dim Light conditions, so that was fun.

But to be honest, even though I like a lot of skill use at low-to-mid levels with my characters, I don't think I've taken any of the 2-for-1 skill bonus feats. A buddy of mine put them on a chart of free feats folks in his games could pick on even levels to represent non-combat character growth, but I never got to play in those.

Still I can see the benefit. These feats grant nearly the Class skill bonus to 2 different skills, so if you have a character who doesn't get the 2 skills in the feat on their Class skill list and you need to use your Traits for something else, these feats are a nice little bump to both skills.

For example if you're my one player that wanted to run a Magus on the run from a nemesis at the beginning of the campaign, Deceitful is a good way to pick up both the Bluff skill you'll use to navigate some social situations as well as the Disguise skill you'll use to constantly confuse your enemies.