What classes would work for a small dex based melee character?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


What classes or multiclass combinations work well for a small dex based melee character? Could you build one that can keep up and wont end up being a hinderance to the party? My thoughts are Bard, Swashbuckler, Investigator with 1 level of Inspired Blade... Maybe Daring Champion Cavalier..

Are there any other good options? Would any of the ones I listed work well for a small dex based character?

My party isent overly optimized, But our Paladin and Psionic Warrior (Not sure his exact class..) can put out a lot of damage at times and I am worried I'l fall so far behind I wont be useful..


Unchained Rogue. You can get Weapon Finesse and Dex-to-Damage with any weapon. Also, Sneak Attack works regardless of your Strength or Dex.

I multiclass a lot. A level in Arcanist for Dimensional Slide for locking in Sneak Attack Damage (Flanking). A level in Snakebite Striker Brawler for the 10hp kicker and the +1d6 Sneak Attack.

I have a character who makes his weapon Unarmed Strikes, dips a level in Monk and takes Panther and Snake Styles. When you take Panther Style Feats, it behooves you to take Dodge and Mobility, so that means you might as well take Canny Tumbler and Circling Mongoose, and have another way of locking in Sneak Attack Damage and concentrating your attacks on a single target when you need to.

So he gets lots of Attacks that do lots of Damage, running around the battlefield like a skirmisher or shock trooper.


Sounds intresting, Thank you Scott!


The kineticist is a pretty good dex-based melee character. You just have to choose kinetic blade and weapon finesse and you are in business. Your focus should be more on dexterity than constitution, but obviously don't dump constitution. Before you get infusion specialization, you'll need to gather power before attacking, but that's not usually a problem. If you need to move to attack the enemy, then just blast them from distance and then move into melee for the following round. You can use something like a cestus for purposes of threatening and taking attacks of opportunity, until you can reliably use kinetic whip.


Unchained rogue
Swashbuckler
Kinetic Knight
Feint shenanigan Hunter
Basically any saerenite archetype or prc gives dervish dance or its equivalent.

As an odd build Sword and Board needs a significant dex investment

Silver Crusade

Here's my Hell's Rebels character: a Halfling Dawnflower Dervish Bard (currently 5th lvl). When buffed with Heroism, Cat's Grace and Battle Dance: +17 to hit, 1d4+12 damage (using only a masterwork weapon).

Note: We're using Background Skills, and the rebellion rules (Persuasive feat from rebellion rules).


Merellin wrote:
Sounds intresting, Thank you Scott!

I can give you a detailed build if you want.


@Melkiador That sounds intresting, Never thought of a Kineticist for melee... Do you have any sugestions for elements?

@Ryan Freire Thank you for the list! =)

@PCScipio Thanks for the build! Had a quick look and it seems cool, I'l read it a bit more carefully in a biT!

@Scott Wilhelm A build would be nice, Thank you. =)


Grippli Vexing Mouser...

Be a Grippli with the Glider and Jumper alternative racial features.

You are Small with a 30' speed, and a 20' Climb speed.

First level is Mouser Swashbuckler for this:

Underfoot Assault (Ex): At 1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser’s is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker’s space. This movement does not count against the mouser’s movement the next round, and it doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. While the mouser is within a foe’s space, she is considered to occupy her square within that foe’s space.

While the mouser is within her foe’s space, the foe takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks not made against the mouser, and all of the mouser’s allies that are adjacent to both the foe and the mouser are considered to be flanking the foe. The mouser is considered to be flanking the foe whose space she is within if she is adjacent to an ally who is also adjacent to the foe. The mouser can move within her foe’s space and leave the foe’s space unhindered and without provoking attacks of opportunity, but if the foe attempts to move to a position where the mouser is no longer in its space, the movement provokes an attack of opportunity from the mouser.

This deed replaces opportune parry and riposte.
......................................

Then, you go into Vexing Dodger UnChained Rogue for this:

Limb-Climber (Ex)
When adjacent to or in the space of a corporeal creature at least one size category larger than herself, a vexing dodger can climb that creature’s body with a successful Climb check against a DC equal to the target creature’s CMD. Although the vexing dodger is holding on to the creature, this action isn’t a grapple; it doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity from the creature, and neither the vexing dodger nor the creature she climbs gains the grappled condition. While the vexing dodger is on the climbed creature, the creature takes a penalty on attack rolls against the vexing dodger equal to the number of sneak attack dice the dodger possesses.

This ability replaces trapfinding.
.....................................

You essentially crawl all over your opponent, stabbing their vital organs in alphabetical order, layering on Dirty Tricks, backflip off their dead corpse before it falls, and gracefully glide to the ground.

That racial Climb speed will really help.
......................................

I don't think there is any way to deal damage with it, but there is a lot of flavor using Weapon Trick for this:

Piercing Climb
Additional Prerequisite(s): Climb 8 ranks

You can use piercing weapons to climb as if your hands were free. You take a –4 penalty on Stealth checks while doing so.

You can take 10 on such Climb checks even while distracted or endangered.


Merellin wrote:
@Melkiador That sounds intresting, Never thought of a Kineticist for melee... Do you have any sugestions for elements?

It really works with any element. Personally, I like to have one physical and one energy blast at 7th level, but the order and element is just a matter of taste, as long as the two elements have a composite blast. I do really like taking air for the ability to fly all day. Flying enemies are usually rare, but it’s nice to meet them where they are.

Because of the eventual iterative attacks and haste, melee is the “best” way to play a kineticist. The damage you could get once per round from range, you could get multiple times from melee.

With elemental overflow, the kineticist can have one of the highest dexterity scores in the game. So, it can have great accuracy and defense. But the whole mechanic can be a little difficult. Do you max out your overflow at the start of the day, or work your way up to it, while constantly updating your scores? You’ll just have to figure out what is best for you.

Silver Crusade

If you want to build a kineticist for melee, earth and water are worth considering. Otherwise, your defenses can be a bit low.

In general, I think a kineticist works best as a switch-hitter.


@VoodistMonk Haha, That looks like a fun build! Very diferent from most i'v seen. =)

@Melkiador Thank you. =) I might have to try it sometime! I have been eyeing the Kineticist a bit as it looks like a intresting class. =)

@PCScipio Thanks! Kineticist seems like a intresting class!

Sovereign Court

Medium(Champion) works fairly well, since its damage bonus is not based on Str and doesn't get reduced for offhand or increased from 2h. Halflings also get 1/3 level to damage from its FCB as well. Throw in Weapon Finesse, Spirit Focus(Champion), Deific Obedience(Pharasma), Piranha Strike, Risky Striker (probably in that order) and an Agile Dagger and you should be set. River Rat trait for +1 damage with daggers (for early build help).
At level 1 (assuming 18 post race dex): +6 1d3+4
At level 3 (assuming MW dagger): +10 1d3+6
At level 6 (assuming belt of dex +2 and +1 dagger): +16/+16 1d3+9
At level 9 (4&8 into Dex, assuming +1 Agile dagger): +16/+16/+11 1d3+25

I normally go Str base for Medium but Dex works just fine, just a few feat taxes.


Going into every element is complicated.

Water: Probably has the best defenses, but most of its utility is tied to being in a water or ice environment.

Earth: Decent layered defenses and can bypass some DR. Good utility

Aether: Good layered defenses. Amazing utility. But doesn't combo very well with other elements. Requires an object for its kinetic blade that can get destroyed pretty quick.

Air: Defense isn't great and meant more for a ranged build, but it will still come up. Many options are based around range instead of melee, but all day flight is good for anyone.

Fire: Its defense isn't even really a defense. Fire is more of a mid-range element with a lot of good options for harming groups. Fan of flames can be great, but isn't really "melee".


Merellin wrote:
@Scott Wilhelm A build would be nice, Thank you. =)

Meet Bonzai!! (Yes, the 2 exclamation points are part of the proper spelling of his name.)

Goblin
Level 1, Brawler1: Unarmed 1d4, Sneak Attack 1d6, Dodge, BAB+1
2B1Arcanist1: Dimensional Slide, Sorcerer and Wizard Spells, Will Save +2
3B1A1Unchained Rogue1: Sneak Attack +1d6, Weapon Finesse (Unarmed Strike), Combat Reflexes
4B1A1U2: Ninja Trick, Style Master, Panther Style, BAB+2

Bonus Swift Action Attack when Bonzai!! Provokes an Attack of Opportunity by Moving out of a Threatened Square. Provoking is dangerous, but Bonzai!!'s AC is going to be very high. A BAB of +1 is very low for a level 3 character, but hopefully this will be offset by Weapon Finesse and the fact that he will be targeting oponents' Flatfooted AC much of the time.

5B2A1U2: Mobility, Canny Tumble, Brawler’s Flurry, BAB+3

Now his AC is even higher, and Canny Tumble provides another way to lock in SA Damage for a character that zips around the battlefield like Bonzai!!

6B2A1U3: Finesse Training, SAD+1d6, Danger Sense+1, BAB+4
7B2A1U4: Panther Claw, Combat Training, Panther Parry, BAB+5

Now Bonzaii can get as many Bonus Attacks up to his Wisdom Mod, and Finesse Training provides Dex-to-Damage.

8B2A1U4Monk1: Monk Stuff, Master of Many Styles, Snake Style
9B2A1U4M1Fighter1: Snake Sidewind, Snake Fang, BAB+6

And now he gets an Attack of Opportunity whenever he is attacked and missed! Since Snake Fang is an Attack of Opportunity hair trigger, I was thinking maybe his next level should be a level in Cavalier with Paired Opportunist as the Bonus Teamwork Feat, so then whenever he gets an AoO, everybody does.

Also, I haven't taken any Goblin Feats yet like Roll with It and Tangle Feet.

So, here is a Small, Dex-based melee character who will not be a hinderance to the party. High surviveability, lots of utility, and lots of Attacks that do lots of Damage.


I had a halfling hunter with 4 levels of unchained rogue that became the highest damage dealer in the party. With the myriad of teamwork feats and a focus on AoOs from crits, using a keen scimitar for a range of 15-20, I was shredding opponents.

Grand Lodge

Basically anything that will also allow you to add your Dex to your damage, either via a class feature (Unchained Rogue's Weapon Training), or by a feat (Fencing Grace, Slashing Grace, etc).

Anything that does melee that isn't based on your weapon damage directly (Magus's Spellstrike)

Finally, options that deal scaling damage that isn't affected by size (Kineticist w/ Kinetic Blade or Kinetic Fist, Anything that grants Sneak Attack, etc.)

If you go Kineticist, Earth and Water are both great for more tanky builds, air and fire are great for more offense focused builds.

My personal favorite is to start with earth, you'll be nice and tough, and still do decent damage. Then when you hit level 7, choose fire or air(lightning) as your secondary element. That way you will have a good solid attack -vs- regular AC, a slightly less powerful energy blast that targets touch AC (but you need to watch out for spell resistance), your defense is one of the best defense talents available to the kineticist, air and fire both have flight options for movement (or you can just sit on the ground and fire one of your blasts at those pesky ranged attackers)

You could also go for a Kinetic Knight archetype build if you want pure melee, though they tend to be more Strength oriented since they use heavy armor and a shield.


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Thanks for all the replies! Everyone has been most helpful and given me plenty of ideas! =D


I don't have a specific build, but a warpriest with sacred weapon damage increasing with level could work for you


Warpriest is a good option, Thanks Haldrick!

Grand Lodge

Just remember, Warpriest's sacred weapon scales down a die size for being small, so it is slightly less attractive.


But still infinitely more attractive than literally every other small weapon option...

Sovereign Court

VoodistMonk wrote:
But still infinitely more attractive than literally every other small weapon option...

Infinitely? Flame Blade, Vigilante(Warlock), Kineticist and multiple classes with high percentages of static damage (swashbuckler, medium, etc) beg to differ.


Warpriest scaling damage dice looks impressive, but mathematically isn't that impressive.

For a small creature, it starts at 1d4, which is probably about the same as whatever dexterity based weapon you were going to use. But let's give a best choice comparison, so the kukri, which is 1d3 for a small character, so an average of 2 damage.

Small Warpriest Damage
Level 1: 1d4(average 2.5)
Level 5: 1d6(average 3.5)
Level 10: 1d8(average 4.5)
Level 15: 1d10(average 5.5)
Level 20: 2d6(average 7)

So, at the maximum level, you're only getting an average 5 more damage per hit from the scaling dice. That's not very impressive. If you'd gone arsenal chaplain you could be getting +4 to both attack roll and damage, moving to +6 with some gloves of dueling. And most classes have similar flat damage improvements that are generally better than scaling damage dice.


This might be a bit out in the weeds, but if you need to get some decent damage on a smaller character, might I recommend the Shikigami Style chain of feats? By level 5, your character could be swinging a Traveler's Anytool shaped into a sledgehammer for 4d6+ 1.5(Str). It'd be a +2 weapon as well. If you need to make up for a lackluster To Hit bonus, you might also consider the Surprise Weapon trait for a flat +2 to hit with all improvised weapons.

Halflings get Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything for free with the "Resourceful" alternate racial trait. Failing that, Makeshift Scrapper rogue, Hinyasi Brawler, and Monk of the Empty Hand all have decent potential.


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(Pardon the double post, I don't seem to be able to edit at all anymore)
Oh! I almost forgot. Eldritch Guardian fighters get a familiar which shares all of their combat feats. A "Mauler" monkey familiar will make a great backup melee dancer until you can find yourself a real Shikigami for flavor and added fun.


Melkiador wrote:

Warpriest scaling damage dice looks impressive, but mathematically isn't that impressive.

For a small creature, it starts at 1d4, which is probably about the same as whatever dexterity based weapon you were going to use. But let's give a best choice comparison, so the kukri, which is 1d3 for a small character, so an average of 2 damage.

Small Warpriest Damage
Level 1: 1d4(average 2.5)
Level 5: 1d6(average 3.5)
Level 10: 1d8(average 4.5)
Level 15: 1d10(average 5.5)
Level 20: 2d6(average 7)

So, at the maximum level, you're only getting an average 5 more damage per hit from the scaling dice. That's not very impressive. If you'd gone arsenal chaplain you could be getting +4 to both attack roll and damage, moving to +6 with some gloves of dueling. And most classes have similar flat damage improvements that are generally better than scaling damage dice.

Also bear in mind that Size Small creaatures start off with +1 on their Attack Rolls.

Meanwhile, there are still Power Attack, Risky Striker, Piranha Strike, and Weapon Specialization. None of those scale down with size.


UncleExpendable wrote:

This might be a bit out in the weeds, but if you need to get some decent damage on a smaller character, might I recommend the Shikigami Style chain of feats? By level 5, your character could be swinging a Traveler's Anytool shaped into a sledgehammer for 4d6+ 1.5(Str). It'd be a +2 weapon as well. If you need to make up for a lackluster To Hit bonus, you might also consider the Surprise Weapon trait for a flat +2 to hit with all improvised weapons.

Halflings get Catch Off-Guard and Throw Anything for free with the "Resourceful" alternate racial trait. Failing that, Makeshift Scrapper rogue, Hinyasi Brawler, and Monk of the Empty Hand all have decent potential.

Some of us were just talking about Shikigami Sledge Hammers on another thread. I have to say though, for a build like that, I do want more size if at all possible.

I overlooked that Halflings get Catch off Guard, though. That's awesome. One of the features of Catch off Guard is that when you attack Unarmed Opponents, they are Flatfooted, and when you take Improved Catch off Guard, Armed opponents are Flatfooted, too! That makes Improvised Weapons an awesome choice for inflicting Sneak Attack Damage, and it only costs 1 Feat!


UncleExpendable wrote:

(Pardon the double post, I don't seem to be able to edit at all anymore)

Oh! I almost forgot. Eldritch Guardian fighters get a familiar which shares all of their combat feats. A "Mauler" monkey familiar will make a great backup melee dancer until you can find yourself a real Shikigami for flavor and added fun.

The monkey will be able to use Improvised Weapons, too: they have hands. Maybe get yourself Broken Wing Gambit and Paired opportunist, so that when either of you is attacked, both of you get attacks of opportunity. You could call yourselves Rhyme and Reason.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
The monkey will be able to use Improvised Weapons, too: they have hands. Maybe get yourself Broken Wing Gambit and Paired opportunist, so that when either of you is attacked, both of you get attacks of opportunity. You could call yourselves Rhyme and Reason.

"Prepare for trouble!"

monkey noises


Dervish Dance Magus would be strong as well.

Grand Lodge

I had a fun Gnome Monk build a while back that focused more on debuffing than straight damage.

Scaled Fist Unchained Monk, focused on Dex and Cha.

Used a combination of the Enforcer feat, with Shatter Defenses, Medusa's Wrath, and Improved Dirty Tricks.

Enforcer would allow me to demoralize things to give them Shaken, which would make them flat footed from Shatter Defenses, which would trigger 2 extra attacks from Medusa's Wrath. Dirty Tricks could impart a few other debuffs.

I think I had something else that would make them sickened or maybe something else, been a while since I thought about that build.


Slyme wrote:

I had a fun Gnome Monk build a while back that focused more on debuffing than straight damage.

Scaled Fist Unchained Monk, focused on Dex and Cha.

Used a combination of the Enforcer feat, with Shatter Defenses, Medusa's Wrath, and Improved Dirty Tricks.

Enforcer would allow me to demoralize things to give them Shaken, which would make them flat footed from Shatter Defenses, which would trigger 2 extra attacks from Medusa's Wrath. Dirty Tricks could impart a few other debuffs.

I think I had something else that would make them sickened or maybe something else, been a while since I thought about that build.

Didja get Bewildering Koan?

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