We've been discussing the potential for redemption at our table, and the obligations our good characters have towards allowing/encouraging it. Certainly evil NPC from playable races can change their ways. And we've played under the assumption that many intelligent creatures (e.g. giants and dragons) have enough volition to choose paths that are contrary to their Bestiary alignment listings.
But are their creatures who must be evil? There are a handful of Animals with low intelligences that are listed as evil. Can they be taught to be neutral or good? Is there an obligation for a follower of Sarenrae to try to redeem them?
What of devils or demons? Can they be turned to goodness? Are they always evil at birth/spawning/hatching/whatever?
I do understand that many don't like the alignment system. I'm one of them. But for purposes of the game as written, I'm curious how the universe is supposed to work.
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We've been discussing the potential for redemption at our table, and the obligations our good characters have towards allowing/encouraging it. Certainly evil NPC from playable races can change their ways. And we've played under the assumption that many intelligent creatures (e.g. giants and dragons) have enough volition to choose paths that are contrary to their Bestiary alignment listings.
But are their creatures who must be evil? There are a handful of Animals with low intelligences that are listed as evil. Can they be taught to be neutral or good? Is there an obligation for a follower of Sarenrae to try to redeem them?
What of devils or demons? Can they be turned to goodness? Are they always evil at birth/spawning/hatching/whatever?
I do understand that many don't like the alignment system. I'm one of them. But for purposes of the game as written, I'm curious how the universe is supposed to work.
I think you have good/honest intentions with this thread but there is no way this doesn't get wildly derailed/closed eventually lol
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The AoA AP actually has the PCs raising Wargs to be at least Neutral.
The Alignment of a Devil or Demon is an inherent part of it's being. If they ceased being Evil, they would cease being a Devil or Demon.
The AoA AP actually has the PCs raising Wargs to be at least Neutral.
The Alignment of a Devil or Demon is an inherent part of it's being. If they ceased being Evil, they would cease being a Devil or Demon.
Thanks. I wonder if a Devil or Demon could choose to become something that isn't evil, even if it meant losing their Devil or Demon status/tag/nature? If so, is it such a remote possibility that it is not worth PC consideration?
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Thanks. I wonder if a Devil or Demon could choose to become something that isn't evil, even if it meant losing their Devil or Demon status/tag/nature? If so, is it such a remote possibility that it is not worth PC consideration?The AoA AP actually has the PCs raising Wargs to be at least Neutral.
The Alignment of a Devil or Demon is an inherent part of it's being. If they ceased being Evil, they would cease being a Devil or Demon.
I think James Jacobs has said that this is something that is possible-but-exceedingly-rare.
In Nocticula's case, she went from Evil Demon Lord to Neutral Goddess. Changing alignment wasn't a decision, so much as something that happened. So, a devil or demon could potentially change alignments but doing so would be best modeled as an arc in an overarching story.
As for how PCs should approach that, it likely depends on the group/individuals and the situation where they encounter the being in question.
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Any individual who possesses a mind and the ability to choose can choose to be any alignment.
For some individuals, such as ones who are literally made out of the elemental essence of evil, or ones who have a particularly colorful history of atrocities this is a hard, uphill climb. It is, however, never impossible.
Probably the single hardest thing to imagine on a redemptive journey is an Alghollthu, since they're fundamentally alien.
I think James Jacobs has said that this is something that is possible-but-exceedingly-rare.In Nocticula's case, she went from Evil Demon Lord to Neutral Goddess. Changing alignment wasn't a decision, so much as something that happened. So, a devil or demon could potentially change alignments but doing so would be best modeled as an arc in an overarching story.
As for how PCs should approach that, it likely depends on the group/individuals and the situation where they encounter the being in question.
And of course Zon Kuthon became evil, with Shelyn believing/hoping he can return. Gods can always be exceptions, I suppose. But if beasts and gods can change, then maybe anything can. Characters have to consider how likely that really is, though.
And of course Zon Kuthon became evil, with Shelyn believing/hoping he can return. Gods can always be exceptions, I suppose. But if animals and gods can change, then maybe anything can. Characters have to consider how likely that really is, though.
I think James Jacobs has said that this is something that is possible-but-exceedingly-rare.In Nocticula's case, she went from Evil Demon Lord to Neutral Goddess. Changing alignment wasn't a decision, so much as something that happened. So, a devil or demon could potentially change alignments but doing so would be best modeled as an arc in an overarching story.
As for how PCs should approach that, it likely depends on the group/individuals and the situation where they encounter the being in question.
How likely and how worth the effort. That's going to vary based on individual ethos.
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Thanks. I wonder if a Devil or Demon could choose to become something that isn't evil, even if it meant losing their Devil or Demon status/tag/nature? If so, is it such a remote possibility that it is not worth PC consideration?The AoA AP actually has the PCs raising Wargs to be at least Neutral.
The Alignment of a Devil or Demon is an inherent part of it's being. If they ceased being Evil, they would cease being a Devil or Demon.
I don't know that they could "choose" to become something else, but if they became Neutral or Good, they would forcibly become something else.
For example, in D&D, the Angel Zariel was corrupted by Asmodeus and became a Devil.
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I believe anything is technically possible, but within the confines of the game almost all of should be virtually impossible.
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Thanks. I wonder if a Devil or Demon could choose to become something that isn't evil, even if it meant losing their Devil or Demon status/tag/nature? If so, is it such a remote possibility that it is not worth PC consideration?The AoA AP actually has the PCs raising Wargs to be at least Neutral.
The Alignment of a Devil or Demon is an inherent part of it's being. If they ceased being Evil, they would cease being a Devil or Demon.
It's technically possible, but vanishingly rare.
Non-fiends with Int Mods higher than -4 (-4 is animal level, -3 or higher are into the human range) can all be Good or Neutral with normal amounts of effort into their redemption (some more rarely than others), but fiends need specific circumstances and a lot more effort.
In all canonical materials there are a total of 3 redeemed Fiends and two of those involve divine intervention (well, Nocticula's is only divine intervention because she herself is a God, but still).
So...it happens, and a Good character should be willing to accept even a fiend if they display a desire for redemption, but assuming that most fiends are irredeemable is a fair attitude for most characters in-universe.
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And of course Zon Kuthon became evil, with Shelyn believing/hoping he can return. Gods can always be exceptions, I suppose. But if beasts and gods can change, then maybe anything can. Characters have to consider how likely that really is, though.
I think James Jacobs has said that this is something that is possible-but-exceedingly-rare.In Nocticula's case, she went from Evil Demon Lord to Neutral Goddess. Changing alignment wasn't a decision, so much as something that happened. So, a devil or demon could potentially change alignments but doing so would be best modeled as an arc in an overarching story.
As for how PCs should approach that, it likely depends on the group/individuals and the situation where they encounter the being in question.
I remember something James Jacobs (maybe not, could have been Amanda Hamon in this vid: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/412056804) said on one of the Pathfinder Friday streams, that Zon-Kuthon, in the previous version of reality, stowed away all of his memories and put it in a box in the far reaches of the universe. Then, in Golarion-reality-time, we have Dou-Bral getting angry at his sister Shelyn and running away to the dark places far away, eventually finding his lost memories, and then coming back as Zon-Kuthon. So, in short, he was always evil, just playing the "good son/brother".
OTOH, you have Erinyes which were (in D&D/Pathfinder lore) angels who went down to hell to fight devils, and eventually became devils because... reasons. They're not "evil angels", they're something different. So can a Pit fiend become good? Sure. It wouldn't be a Pit fiend anymore though.
Also, it'd be one hell of a story!
Personally I like the alignment system, as a general guideline for PCs, and having some outsiders be physical embodiments of these primal forces, akin to the elements fire, water, earth & air. Thinking about things this way, if a fire elemental decided to not be firey anymore, then they would no longer be a fire elemental.
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All evil creatures can be good, if it serves a greater evil.
Otherwise they're good creatures. Bit of a tautology though.
More seriously, all evil creatures can become good, if it augments the GM's story.
Redeemed demons & fallen angels feature in Earth's ancient lore up to Gygaxian times then the current Paizo-ic era. Such creatures make for dynamic contrasts and conflicts. Ultimately, the question comes down to free will, a contentious issue in reality. In fantasy, where all the characters have been constructed to serve the setting and story, there is no free will. Anything can happen anywhen, with story justification.
If the question is if James Jacobs (Golarion's meta-god) has placed a hard limit on when Evil can or cannot become Good while remaining true to the metaphysics of Golarion's universe, the answer is no. He has placed no such boundary, only calling it rare for innately evil folk to overcome their natures. And as DMW has pointed out, there are several extreme exceptions that demonstrate such successes. So if you need another exception for your story, you're free to make one.
That said, I think redeemed mindless creatures would be hard to justify without an alteration of their essence by outside forces. And Cthulhu and friends may be impossible to redeem given their thoughts shouldn't be comprehensible for the reader/player/GM to follow along & accept. I suppose a super-duper-god could "cure" their insanity, yet in what way could we call that Cthulhu anymore? Would there be a recognizable seed below the madness? I say nay.
I remember something James Jacobs (maybe not, could have been Amanda Hamon in this vid: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/412056804) said on one of the Pathfinder Friday streams, that Zon-Kuthon, in the previous version of reality, stowed away all of his memories and put it in a box in the far reaches of the universe. Then, in Golarion-reality-time, we have Dou-Bral getting angry at his sister Shelyn and running away to the dark places far away, eventually finding his lost memories, and then coming back as Zon-Kuthon. So, in short, he was always evil, just playing the "good son/brother".
I've not heard that before. Interesting.
And of course Zon Kuthon became evil, with Shelyn believing/hoping he can return. Gods can always be exceptions, I suppose. But if beasts and gods can change, then maybe anything can. Characters have to consider how likely that really is, though.
I think James Jacobs has said that this is something that is possible-but-exceedingly-rare.In Nocticula's case, she went from Evil Demon Lord to Neutral Goddess. Changing alignment wasn't a decision, so much as something that happened. So, a devil or demon could potentially change alignments but doing so would be best modeled as an arc in an overarching story.
As for how PCs should approach that, it likely depends on the group/individuals and the situation where they encounter the being in question.
There are exactly 2 fiends that have become good-aligned in canon to my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong). Though I don't know if there are any canon evil celestials. Anyone know?
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There are exactly 2 fiends that have become good-aligned in canon to my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong). Though I don't know if there are any canon evil celestials. Anyone know?
There are three (Nocticula, one in Wrath of the Righteous, and another in the Pathfinder Tales novel 'The Redemption Engine').
For fallen celestials, most of the Archdevils are explicitly former angels or archons due to Asmodeus bringing them with him in his revolt against Heaven. Non-deific ones, we have fewer named.
Creative Director
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Stories of fiends becoming good, angels becoming evil, proteans becoming lawful, aeons becoming chaotic, and so on are interesting because they're so unusual and unique. The more these stories are told, the more they erode that uniqueness and become less interesting, I feel.
In Pathfinder, a creature like a fiend or an angel or any of the entities that, in 1st edition, we grouped under the label of "outsider" are physical incarnations of their alignments, and as such they don't have the free will do be anything other than what they are. It takes a signficant event or unusual situation to let one of these creatures be an alignment that's other than the norm.
For pretty much every other creature, the alignments we list in their entries in a Bestiary indicate the typical one for that creature. Unless the creature is animal intelligence or less (in which case the creature is almost always Neutral), they have free will to make their own choices. Taken as a whole from the entire game, their most common alignment is the one listed in their bestiary entry, but having an individual with a different alignment is absolutely possible. In adventures and products we publish, we'll give reasons why that creature is "off model" from its standard alignment, though, rather than just give it an unexpected alignment randomly.
Thank you, James.
Mr. Jacobs-
Would it be possible, albeit incredibly weird, for an Algollthu to gain a good alignment? It seems to me that they fundamentally view morality differently from how the planes are organized, and anything other than "pure egotism" seems unconscionable for them.
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Creative Director
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Mr. Jacobs-
Would it be possible, albeit incredibly weird, for an Algollthu to gain a good alignment? It seems to me that they fundamentally view morality differently from how the planes are organized, and anything other than "pure egotism" seems unconscionable for them.
It's certainly possible. It's also certainly weird. I'm not a fan of a good-aligned algollthuh at all; it really doesn't mesh with the stories I'm interested in telling and I wouldn't expect to see us publish any such adventures or the like, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.
In a case like this, I think that part of what makes these monsters "aberrations" is not just the fact that they're weird looking. They're weird THINKING too. One of the greatest flaws in the algollthu mind is their biological and mental inability to understand the concept of faith, so to me it kind of makes sense that they'd also be unable to understand the concept of being kind. So that their "abberant"-ness is as much a weird inability for them to consider such a thing as it is their creepy shapes.
Mr. Jacobs-
Would it be possible, albeit incredibly weird, for an Algollthu to gain a good alignment? It seems to me that they fundamentally view morality differently from how the planes are organized, and anything other than "pure egotism" seems unconscionable for them.
It's certainly possible. It's also certainly weird. I'm not a fan of a good-aligned algollthuh at all; it really doesn't mesh with the stories I'm interested in telling and I wouldn't expect to see us publish any such adventures or the like, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.
In a case like this, I think that part of what makes these monsters "aberrations" is not just the fact that they're weird looking. They're weird THINKING too. One of the greatest flaws in the algollthu mind is their biological and mental inability to understand the concept of faith, so to me it kind of makes sense that they'd also be unable to understand the concept of being kind. So that their "abberant"-ness is as much a weird inability for them to consider such a thing as it is their creepy shapes.
What if one put on a helmet of opposite alignment? It would become CG presumably so would that make it magically able to feel compassion then?
Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Helm caused it to explode from the radical shift in thought and viewpoint. It’s not so much that they’re evil because they’re so alien, it’s that they are fundamentally so different mentally and psychologically, that it’s a blue and orange mentality. They’re so mentally weird that they can’t comprehend compassion or empathy. I don’t think their physiology could take such a sudden shift.
I don't think we've seen the 2e Helm of Opposite Alignment yet. When there is one, there's probably going to be text about it not working on certain things (like things on which it does not physically fit, or things which are not compatible with certain alignments.)
The 1e version has a pretty easy will save to beat, IIRC. Particularly if you're an ancient mind-controlling piscine monster.
The Alignment of a Devil or Demon is an inherent part of it's being. If they ceased being Evil, they would cease being a Devil or Demon.
The champion's Fiendsbane Oath seems to suggest otherwise:
"You must banish or slay fiends you come across as long as you have a reasonable chance of success; in the incredibly unlikely event you find a good fiend, you don't have to banish or kill it."
Not only is it possible for a fiend to become good but it appears they still count as fiends if they do.
There's a redeemed fiend in Wrath of the Righteous who's making it into the party for the videogame adaptation. Likewise, D&D has Falls-from-Grace, another risen friend, in the game Planescape: Torment.
Why would you let angels fall but not let fiends rise?
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The Alignment of a Devil or Demon is an inherent part of it's being. If they ceased being Evil, they would cease being a Devil or Demon.The champion's Fiendsbane Oath seems to suggest otherwise:
"You must banish or slay fiends you come across as long as you have a reasonable chance of success; in the incredibly unlikely event you find a good fiend, you don't have to banish or kill it."
Not only is it possible for a fiend to become good but it appears they still count as fiends if they do.
It's a process. The 'redeemed' succubus in WotR, for example, starts off that AP as CN and still a demon, her becoming CG and losing her demon (and thus fiend) status is an ongoing plot element in that AP.
The Oath's exception is pretty clearly intended for cases like hers.
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I've always felt like anything other than specifically alignment-subtyped outsiders (such as demons, devils and angels, among others, but not genies or elementals) were more or less made out of 'elemental evil' or 'elemental good' or whatever, and it would be a fundamental change in their *biology* for them to change alignment, sort of like getting a massive transfusion of all the blood in your body.
But most other critters, free will reigns. Some might have a more supernatural tinge to their alignments, such as mythos-critters, and be vanishingly rare to be anything other than evil, with 'chaotic neutral' being about as close to 'good' as they get...
I ruled for a game a long time ago that worgs, in particular, had a supernatural component to their evil, and that to 'convert' some pups, the party had to go through a ritual that projected them into a spirit world where they had to fight the darker components of their wolf-souls and exorcise them, to free them from the taint that made them otherwise 'inevitably evil.' (That game had already introduced that element with a third-party shaman class that would cure disease or poison or curses by entering a private spirit combat with a CR-appropriate beastie representing the manifestation of that affliction, so I was just sort of running with that theme, and deciding on the 'evil taint' of worgishness being kind of like a curse that could be similarly expunged.)
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What if one put on a helmet of opposite alignment? It would become CG presumably so would that make it magically able to feel compassion then?Mr. Jacobs-
Would it be possible, albeit incredibly weird, for an Algollthu to gain a good alignment? It seems to me that they fundamentally view morality differently from how the planes are organized, and anything other than "pure egotism" seems unconscionable for them.
It's certainly possible. It's also certainly weird. I'm not a fan of a good-aligned algollthuh at all; it really doesn't mesh with the stories I'm interested in telling and I wouldn't expect to see us publish any such adventures or the like, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.
In a case like this, I think that part of what makes these monsters "aberrations" is not just the fact that they're weird looking. They're weird THINKING too. One of the greatest flaws in the algollthu mind is their biological and mental inability to understand the concept of faith, so to me it kind of makes sense that they'd also be unable to understand the concept of being kind. So that their "abberant"-ness is as much a weird inability for them to consider such a thing as it is their creepy shapes.
Things like that are exceptions resulting from magic, so they don't really figure into the general discussion of the topic. When something like this happens the GM needs to be on the ball and able to improvise or otherwise roll with the punches.
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Lest we forget the city entirely populated by outsiders of "incorrect" alignments.
Came to post that.
It's a great "proof" that changing (or having the "wrong") alignment doesn't necessarily change what they are.
Thanks. I wonder if a Devil or Demon could choose to become something that isn't evil, even if it meant losing their Devil or Demon status/tag/nature? If so, is it such a remote possibility that it is not worth PC consideration?The AoA AP actually has the PCs raising Wargs to be at least Neutral.
The Alignment of a Devil or Demon is an inherent part of it's being. If they ceased being Evil, they would cease being a Devil or Demon.
I don't know that they could "choose" to become something else, but if they became Neutral or Good, they would forcibly become something else.
For example, in D&D, the Angel Zariel was corrupted by Asmodeus and became a Devil.
As Deadmanwalking pointed out, this is not quite the same in Pathfinder - since a demon was able to be Chaotic Neutral and still be a demon.
It's a process. The 'redeemed' succubus in WotR, for example, starts off that AP as CN and still a demon, her becoming CG and losing her demon (and thus fiend) status is an ongoing plot element in that AP.
The Oath's exception is pretty clearly intended for cases like hers.
Are you sure she became good? I haven't read Wrath of the Righteous, but Gods & Magic says otherwise, if we're thinking of the same being. Maybe the edition change from 1e to 2e switched her back?
Are you sure she became good? I haven't read Wrath of the Righteous, but Gods & Magic says otherwise, if we're thinking of the same being. Maybe the edition change from 1e to 2e switched her back?It's a process. The 'redeemed' succubus in WotR, for example, starts off that AP as CN and still a demon, her becoming CG and losing her demon (and thus fiend) status is an ongoing plot element in that AP.
The Oath's exception is pretty clearly intended for cases like hers.
I think you misread his comment. He's talking about an NPC from the AP that isn't Nocticula.
Stories of fiends becoming good, angels becoming evil, proteans becoming lawful, aeons becoming chaotic, and so on are interesting because they're so unusual and unique. The more these stories are told, the more they erode that uniqueness and become less interesting, I feel.
Like how all drow were CG rangers that fled to the surface to escape the anger and hatred of their evil brethren?
...and yes, that must be very hard when all of those evil brethren also became CG rangers that fled to the surface. I guess that just leaves a lot off empty drow cities.