Persistent damage happens at the end of your turn.
For poison, it's a bit unclear due to the duration, but rolling it on the turn of the monster delivering it avoids the (very bad) cases of rolling poison twice in a row.
Persistent damage happens at the end of your turn.
For poison, it's a bit unclear due to the duration, but rolling it on the turn of the monster delivering it avoids the (very bad) cases of rolling poison twice in a row.
It's really had to find the rules for this. But the Afflictions section indicates you roll for poison on your turn, not the monsters (Which is in contrast to all other examples of durations... and can lead to a poisons being save against very quickly...)
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Persistent Damage
Source Core Rulebook pg. 451
"Unlike with normal damage, when you are subject to persistent damage, you don’t take it right away. Instead, you take the specified damage at the end of your turns, after which you attempt a DC 15 flat check to see if you recover from the persistent damage. See the Conditions Appendix on pages 618–623 for the complete rules regarding the persistent damage condition."
Persistent Damage
Source Core Rulebook pg. 621
"Instead of taking persistent damage immediately, you take it at the end of each of your turns as long as you have the condition, rolling any damage dice anew each time. After you take persistent damage, roll a DC 15 flat check to see if you recover from the persistent damage. If you succeed, the condition ends."
So "you take it at the end of each of your turns".
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It's really had to find the rules for this. But the Afflictions section indicates you roll for poison on your turn, not the monsters (Which is in contrast to all other examples of durations... and can lead to a poisons being save against very quickly...)Persistent damage happens at the end of your turn.
For poison, it's a bit unclear due to the duration, but rolling it on the turn of the monster delivering it avoids the (very bad) cases of rolling poison twice in a row.
Rules are in contradiction for poison. It says that poison has a duration, and often it's one round. So, if you save at the end of your turn, you are in contradiction with the 1 round duration of poison.
But if you save twice in a row, the impact can be extreme, as poisons are dangerous if they ever get to stage 2. So, removing the chance for a player to have a Treat Poison or any spell (Guidance, Heroism) cast on him before he saves for a second time can be a killer. On the other hand, the Alchemist uses poison and counts on multiple exposure before the first save to ofset the high Fortitude save of monsters. This time, saving right away may allow the monster to get rid of poison before multiple exposure happens. Considering that the Alchemist really doesn't need a nerf, it's once again sad.So, I think following the poison duration and saving at the monster's turn is more fair than saving at the end of the player's turn. That's the rule I tend to push.
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Afflictions are not Persistent Damage
If you get hit by a Brain Collector's Jaws attack, you take 2d12+6 Piercing Damage and make a Fort Save. If you fail the Fort Save, because the poison has no onset, you immediately take 1d6 poison damage, and are enfeebled 1. The duration is 1 round, so at the start of the Brain Collector's turn, you have to make a second Fort Save, either recovering, or moving to Stage 2 and immediately taking another 1d6 poison damage, as well as becoming enfeebled 1 and slowed 1.
You never take the damage from a single stage twice in a row. At the end of the duration, you either improve or get worse.
The rules for Afflictions are on pages 457 and 458.
The rule for duration is as follows:
For an effect that lasts a number of rounds, the remaining duration decreases by 1 at the start of each turn of the creature that created the effect.
Not 100% true. Virulent Afflictions need 2 consecutive successful saves to move up so you could be taking the damage from the same stage multiple times in a row.Afflictions are not Persistent Damage
If you get hit by a Brain Collector's Jaws attack, you take 2d12+6 Piercing Damage and make a Fort Save. If you fail the Fort Save, because the poison has no onset, you immediately take 1d6 poison damage, and are enfeebled 1. The duration is 1 round, so at the start of the Brain Collector's turn, you have to make a second Fort Save, either recovering, or moving to Stage 2 and immediately taking another 1d6 poison damage, as well as becoming enfeebled 1 and slowed 1.
You never take the damage from a single stage twice in a row. At the end of the duration, you either improve or get worse.
The rules for Afflictions are on pages 457 and 458.
The rule for duration is as follows:
For an effect that lasts a number of rounds, the remaining duration decreases by 1 at the start of each turn of the creature that created the effect.
You do have to succeed at 2 saves, which means you will feel any negative status affects twice as long, but nothing indicates that you take damage at any time other than entering the stage. Staying at the same stage would not re-inflict the damage.
At least that is my understanding of it.
Last sentence in stages says it repeats the effects if at max and continue to fail. I see no reason this would not applied to staying at same for Virulent Afflictions. Otherwise, a regular success would be better then a crit success which makes no sense.
Ok, I agree then.
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Afflictions are not Persistent Damage
If you get hit by a Brain Collector's Jaws attack, you take 2d12+6 Piercing Damage and make a Fort Save. If you fail the Fort Save, because the poison has no onset, you immediately take 1d6 poison damage, and are enfeebled 1. The duration is 1 round, so at the start of the Brain Collector's turn, you have to make a second Fort Save, either recovering, or moving to Stage 2 and immediately taking another 1d6 poison damage, as well as becoming enfeebled 1 and slowed 1.
You never take the damage from a single stage twice in a row. At the end of the duration, you either improve or get worse.
The rules for Afflictions are on pages 457 and 458.
The rule for duration is as follows:
For an effect that lasts a number of rounds, the remaining duration decreases by 1 at the start of each turn of the creature that created the effect.
I was confused by this at first because I'd been running, "Afflictions and Persistent Damage both tick down at the end of your turn" and thought maybe I'd carried that rule over from the playtest without noticing a change. It took me a while to find it again (I even read past it twice in the process) but the rules that outline the structure of a creature's turn in combat DO explicitly put afflictions at the end of the afflicted character's turn. Specifically it always happens in the same step where you suffer any persistent damage you have.
Step 3: End Your Turn
Take the following steps in any order you choose.
*End any effects that last until the end of your turn. For example, spells with a sustained duration end at the end of your turn unless you used the Sustain a Spell action during your turn to extend them. Some effects caused by enemies might also last through a certain number of your turns, and you decrease the remaining duration by 1 during this step, ending the effect if its duration is reduced to 0.
*If you have a persistent damage condition, you take the damage at this point. After you take the damage, you can attempt the flat check to end the persistent damage. You then attempt any saving throws for ongoing afflictions. Many other conditions change at the end of your turn, such as the frightened condition decreasing in severity. These take place after you’ve taken any persistent damage, attempted flat checks to end the persistent damage, and attempted saves against any afflictions.
*You can use 1 free action or reaction with a trigger of “Your turn ends” or something similar.
*Resolve anything else specified to happen at the end of your turn.
As an aside, I do agree every time you fail a save against an affliction you suffer the consequences of a stage, whether you moved down or not (there would be no point to the max duration on chuul tentacles otherwise since they only have 1 stage).
Well now I'm confused. That passage seems to indicate that even if a stage had a duration of 1 year, you'd have to make a save every turn in combat. That's directly antithetical to the example in the Affliction section.
The one that Sibelius Eos Owm bolded.
I would simply treat it as the scheduled time for the check--whether the check needs to happen or not. Stage duration 1 round? Check at end of round. Stage duration 1 minute? Every round until you get to a minute you say, "Is the duration up this round? No. Carry on" until you hit that 1 minute mark (where you're probably out of Encounter mode anyway so you stop tracking turn order). Same as with the beginning of turn ticking down the duration of all your beneficial buffs whether they last 2 rounds or 2 months.
It still feels like an overly complicated mistake to me that the duration for afflictions is for some reason reduced at a different time than every other duration in the game, but I can't refute what's written, so I guess that's how it works.
I still have a question about multiple exposures to the same poison with a 1 round interval. If the PC fails the initial save and advances to stage 1 with no onset he immediately is affected by stage 1. If in the same creature turn he is bitten by another creature and fails that save is he immediately affected by the stage 2 effects? Or does it just advance the poison to stage 2 and the effects only occur once the interval has passed?
Ooh that's an interesting question. My instinct is that something always happens when you fail a save vs poison, so you would immediately take damage from the new stage because the mechanics for poison say that each new dose increases the stage and, outside of the onset period you generally always apply a new stage the moment you get to it. Being poisoned many times in a row can get dangerous. As an aside, I don't think that definition of a round is necessarily diagnostic for the purposes of rolling saves vs poison when you acted immediately after the poisoning creature, but it wouldn't be too game breaking if you delayed the save until the player's second turn if they acted right after the monster.
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I hate to break in late to this topic peoples, but as I interpret the rules, a poison is not, strictly speaking, a "persistent damage condition".
I mean, I realize that it does persistent damage assuming it has a duration, but it is not a condition per se.
That said:
I think there is good cause to count poison as "ticking" at the end of the afflicted's turn due to the rest of the paragraph Sibelius Eos Own quoted from the CRB, pg. 455 about Durations:
For an effect that lasts a number of rounds, the remaining duration decreases by 1 at the start of each turn of the creature that created the effect. This is common for beneficial effects that target you or your allies. Detrimental effects often last “until the end of the target’s next turn” or “through” a number of their turns (such as “through the target’s next 3 turns”), which means that the effect’s duration decreases at the end of the creature’s turn, rather than the start.
Nifty
I was just about to ask about this myself. One of my players just about had a conniption when his character got ambushed by three quasits who basically proceeded to sting him to death every round and he and I had a disagreement about when the poison effect took place and whether or not a hero point to avoid dying would also fix the poison.
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I think the stress should be laid a bit differently.
For an effect that lasts a number of rounds, the remaining duration decreases by 1 at the start of each turn of the creature that created the effect. This is common for beneficial effects that target you or your allies. Detrimental effects often last “until the end of the target’s next turn” or “through” a number of their turns (such as “through the target’s next 3 turns”), which means that the effect’s duration decreases at the end of the creature’s turn, rather than the start.[/b]
Often, meaning not necessarily always.
Frightened is a good example of when it does tick down at the end of the victim's turns. And it's a common debuff, fitting the "often" word.
But Stunned ticks down at the beginning of a victim's turn.
So I think the "often" should be read more as an advisory, rather than a prescriptive term. It reminds you that you may have an affliction that ticks down at the end of your turn; it doesn't say that all afflictions shall tick down at the end of your turn.
For poisons, making 1 round actually be 1 round makes more sense.
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I've played PFS quite some more after this subject has been brought, and in the table I've played in everyone went for the "roll at the end of the victim turn". It works fine, even if it can be nasty to players.
Seems to me that a PC's initiative will be far more likely to change then that of a monster.
"Y's initiative moved, so roll your next saves after X's turns" doesn't seem very complicated to me. If X's initiative moves too, change it to after W's. Much better to do that than double-tap afflicted creatures.
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So...is there any definitive RAW on this? Or do the rules seem contradictory and everyone has a different opinion?
Strictly speaking, the poison occurs at the initiative count on which it occurred.
[citation needed]
I just read over the rules on core p457 and nothing in there says anything about initiative or rounds. All of the examples are in minutes.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The most relevant RAW for this seems to be the passage I quoted before (same bolding for emphasis).
Step 3: End Your Turn
Take the following steps in any order you choose.
*End any effects that last until the end of your turn. For example, spells with a sustained duration end at the end of your turn unless you used the Sustain a Spell action during your turn to extend them. Some effects caused by enemies might also last through a certain number of your turns, and you decrease the remaining duration by 1 during this step, ending the effect if its duration is reduced to 0.
*If you have a persistent damage condition, you take the damage at this point. After you take the damage, you can attempt the flat check to end the persistent damage. You then attempt any saving throws for ongoing afflictions. Many other conditions change at the end of your turn, such as the frightened condition decreasing in severity. These take place after you’ve taken any persistent damage, attempted flat checks to end the persistent damage, and attempted saves against any afflictions.
*You can use 1 free action or reaction with a trigger of “Your turn ends” or something similar.
*Resolve anything else specified to happen at the end of your turn.
I cannot speak for how definitive people find this. It appears for all intents and purposes you suffer poison damage at the end of your turn. It doesn't seem to matter that it is not technically persistent damage because both afflictions and persistent damage happen at the same time. It seems otherwise clear that the poison save and damage normally always happens at the end of the afflicted creature's turn, without regard for initiative counts. I don't know what happens if the character delays, but I feel like the Delay activity indicated something about suffering relevant afflictions/persistent damage at the moment of delaying.
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Regarding the amount of bookkeeping: I think actually explicitly adding a poison ticker to the initiative order might be a good thing, because it helps with remembering to do it and you can also have it count down until the poison expires. So when used properly it should actually reduce the amount of things you need to keep in mind.
It still feels like an overly complicated mistake to me that the duration for afflictions is for some reason reduced at a different time than every other duration in the game, but I can't refute what's written, so I guess that's how it works.
These are two different things:
1. CRB 455 (Durations) are the rules on when the duration counter ticks down. It lets you know what how many more rounds of the max duration are left. ("...the remaining duration decreases by 1 at the start of each turn of the creature that created the effect.") [Example: the spider that bit you and with its venomous bite affects you for a max or 10 rounds, every time this spider starts it turn, your max rounds decrease by 1.]2. CRB 469 (End of Your Turn) are the rules when the effects of the stage you are suffering from happen. [Example: you take 1D8 poison damage]