Starfinder Lead Designer
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
FAQ updated with relevant answers! (See the first few FAQs in Starfinder Core Rulebook FAQ.)
For question 3: Powered armor must be upgraded level by level as detailed in Starfinder Armory; this does indeed become prohibitively expensive.
Effects (including abilities and spells) that change a creature’s speeds do not affect the speeds of powered armor that creature is wearing; the powered armor's speeds replace the creature's. A creature wearing powered armor can use the speeds (both type and distance) only of its powered armor.
So being in power armor that doesn't fly seems to preclude you from flying. That leaves force soles for dealing with flying enemies?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Effects (including abilities and spells) that change a creature’s speeds do not affect the speeds of powered armor that creature is wearing; the powered armor's speeds replace the creature's. A creature wearing powered armor can use the speeds (both type and distance) only of its powered armor.
So being in power armor that doesn't fly seems to preclude you from flying. That leaves force soles for dealing with flying enemies?
Huh, I got it right for once.
Anyway, Experimental Armor Mechanics get the ability to add flying to armor, if I recall.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thank you again, Joe, for the answers we seek.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Considering that powered armor is relatively close in AC to heavy armor and that there are no modifications to add flight, that seems like a big nerf to powered armor. Any sort of pit or zero gravity situation becomes a big big big deal all of a sudden and we seem to see a ton of them because at the point that you can afford powered armor, well, everyone can find a way to fly!
Or... not. :(
Well, at least PA strength will help with climbing out of a pit.
Oof.
I fully expected the upgrade slot stacking part of it, but the "nothing affects movement ever" bit is a surprise, and a huge hit to powered armor.
Makes me like the prohibitive upgrading cost of it a lot less. I was fine with it, but it hurts a lot more now : you kind of want those precious few faster or flying suits to stick around.
Doesn't happen to me a whole lot, but I'm not fond of this clarification.
Still : now we know, and that's always better.
...
Has Experimental Armor become the one way to play around with PA efficiently ?
That seems unlikely, from these clarifications.
A caple from fellow adventures and climbing up?
PCs usally run around as a team right? So why not relying on a teammate? Sure the fly spell will not work but there are mundane options.
A caple from fellow adventures and climbing up?
PCs usally run around as a team right? So why not relying on a teammate? Sure the fly spell will not work but there are mundane options.
The jetpack won't work either
So you're down to a dragonkin with might of the ecindroth cast on them or an igor with a catapult.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Or just use a power armor with flight pr climbing or whatnot.
Grappler?
Grappler.
|
@Joe Pasini, then if we are saying that all upgrades to Power Armor must be incremental and you can't jump levels- what about a Prototype Armor Mechanic who wants to upgrade a level 7 suit of Light Armor into Powered Armor? Am I able to turn it into a Battle Suit which has been upgraded to level 7? Or am I stuck with choosing suits of level 7 or lower as listed in the various books, and unable to build an "upgraded" version of the Battle Harness?
Or just use a power armor with flight pr climbing or whatnot.
There's only one power armor that flies, and the upgrading process is borked.
|
There's only one power armor that flies, and the upgrading process is borked.There's at least 3 that can fly, off the top of my head. There's a couple with climb speeds, as well. If you start thinking about alternate modes of movement as an important factor, there is actually some choice left to you.
No arguments about the upgrade process, though.
Fine, only 1 that flies in a relevant level range. And even that is at the very end of it. And it's pretty much garbage compared to other armor at that level.
|
|
Falcon Boots I think would be a no, as they add a climb speed, and it doesn't seem like you can do that with power armor.
Falcon Boots should be fine. Even without a climb speed, you still have "this way down". So instead of climbing you still walk normally along your new "ground". And because it details dropped items also being subject to your local gravity, your power armor would be too.
The trade-off with them is that anytime you want a new Down, you have to stop and waste a move action to set it.
Falcon Boots I think would be a no, as they add a climb speed, and it doesn't seem like you can do that with power armor.Falcon Boots should be fine. Even without a climb speed, you still have "this way down". So instead of climbing you still walk normally along your new "ground". And because it details dropped items also being subject to your local gravity, your power armor would be too.
The trade-off with them is that anytime you want a new Down, you have to stop and waste a move action to set it.
The falcon boots, while having an interesting mechanic for doing so, give you a climb speed. So i don't think they would work.
I do think Force Soles would work. They don't grant new speed types or change the speed. They just let the normal walking move on air.
...
I'm stretching here.
Force soles are an augmentation and not a new movement type. It doesn't make any sense but it should work. (note: i do not expect any particular broad ruling to be able to make sense of everything in the game_)
I think it's bizarre that augmentations work and magic doesn't. If anything it should be reversed.
Augmentations work IF they don't change the movement speed or a movement type. Force soles is the only weird one i know of
I think it's bizarre that augmentations work and magic doesn't. If anything it should be reversed.Augmentations work IF they don't change the movement speed or a movement type. Force soles is the only weird one i know of
And magic would work if it doesn't change the movement speed or add a movement type.
If air walk still existed it would work with this ruling for instance.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My brain is full of fudge, at least they gave us the clarifications.
But still, half of this makes no sense whatsoever, this means that power armor users are immune to any effect that lowers movement speed.
This can certainly not be exploited in any way.
I don't think that's the right reading of the FAQ
Effects (including abilities and spells) that change a creature’s speeds do not affect the speeds of powered armor that creature is wearing; the powered armor's speeds replace the creature's
So speedy Gorgonzola, blitz soldier ysoki normally has a 70 foot movement (blitz soldier with bionic legs). They're in powered armor with a movement of 40. They get entangled.
70---->40 which is halved is 20.
Mighty Glacier, Mormalaw Soldier, starts with a movement of 20. He's in the same powered armor* so movement 40----> halved is 20.
Things like entangle don't effect your speed they halve your movement, if that makes any technical sense.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Even if that's true, and as much as I could see it that's not a given, there are effects that are straight speed debuffs, expressed in actual feet. I remember the frost weapon gear boost, I'm sure there are others.
If a +10 feet effect doesn't work, why would a -10 ?
I think Thaago had it earlier : Powered Armor has become a slow, low mobility option, but one that's hard to make slower.
Difficult terrain, sure. Immobilising effect, same. Entangled, maybe. Speed debuff however, I don't think so.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
This is going to be so annoyingly finicky.
Something that roots you in place will work, as it doesn't affect your speeds per se.
Something that sets your speed to 0 however, will not.
We're going to be discussing this forever.
For example : I have to agree, to me "you move at half speed" sounds like affecting speed. I don't think those effects (entangled, exhausted and the like) work on Power Armor.
|
|
| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, you're 100% correct. This is exactly what I was trying to avoid when we didn't have the FAQ answers.
We tried my friend, but apparently paizo thinks differently.
Aside from this sillyness though, they literally wrote down that any effect that modifies a power armors speed does not function.
Note the usage of the word 'effect' here, this causes it to include ANYTHING, class features, scenario effects, the works.
The prototype armor mechanic can cause their power armor to grant the character a fly speed, but this FAQ establishes that a power armor's speed overwrites the PC's, so you cannot use the class feature while using the class feature.
Might want to errata that in COM right away, probably so that it says that your armor gains a fly speed instead, but that adjusts the speed so that doesn't work.
Meanwhile the power armor jockey increase a power armor's base land speed by 10, which once again does not work now.
For example : I have to agree, to me "you move at half speed" sounds like affecting speed. I don't think those effects (entangled, exhausted and the like) work on Power Armor.
The words after the semicolon explain what the words before the colon mean. You resolve effects as if the creatures speed was X, where x is the speed of the power armor.
To be fair, Experimental Armor and PA Jockey grant those effects to the Armor very specifically.
[edit : actually nevermind, the Experimental Armor has the Prototype grant the speeds to the wearer, for some reason. I'll just assume the ability does something. Jockey does change what the armor itself does, so it's fine. ]
Let's requote the FAQ and the rule, it's been a bit.
How does powered armor interact with modifications to movement speed?
Effects (including abilities and spells) that change a creature’s speeds do not affect the speeds of powered armor that creature is wearing; the powered armor's speeds replace the creature's. A creature wearing powered armor can use the speeds (both type and distance) only of its powered armor.
SPEED
Rather than using your normal speed, the powered armor has a maximum land speed of its own. In some cases, powered armor has additional movement types as well.
Things that affect the armor should work fine. Of course, those are about the only ones so far, I think.
BNW, again, I can see the argument. I just don't agree. "You move at half speed", to me, sure sounds like it falls under the things that "change a creature's speed".The other aspects of the conditions, the "you can't run or charge" bits, work just fine : they're just actions you can't take.
(Sidenote : encumberment apparently does not slow you down either, though the other penalties still apply.)
I fully expect more abilities, spells and upgrades specifically designed to work with Power Armor to appear sooner or later, both positive and negative.
Until then though...
Edit : oh wait, I may have vastly misunderstood your point.
Are you arguing that we're flipping the reasoning around (my english is indeed failing me, sorry, hope that's intelligible) and that in fact the FAQ doesn't stop any effect that don't target the wearer very specifically (like augmentations) and just switches the base speeds ?
So a +20 ft bonus coming from say a spell would work, but with the armor's speed as a base ?
That would certainly be a more generous way to look at it. And not a great way to word a faq.
Kinda hope that's it mind you, but not holding my breath.
If that's not it, then I don't really get why halving your speed would work when a -10 ft wouldn't.
Unless it's like my rooting example from earlier and the subtle nuance between "move at half speed" and "-50% to your speed".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Edit : oh wait, I may have vastly misunderstood your point.
Are you arguing that we're flipping the reasoning around (my english is indeed failing me, sorry, hope that's intelligible) and that in fact the FAQ doesn't stop any effect that don't target the wearer very specifically (like augmentations) and just switches the base speeds ?
So a +20 ft bonus...
No. I'm arguing that you're taking an overly literal meaning of the stuff before the semicolon and not putting enough emphasis on the stuff after it. If you look at the stuff after it, the rulings become sensible , easy to make, and never works in the power armored wearers favor beyond speeding a slower creature up.
If you are in power armor you are a creature with a speed of x and movement types y (where x and y are what the armor gives you). the powered armored speeds replace the creatures. A creature with a movement of x can still be slow held paralyzed, frozen with a weapon, entangled, in difficult terrain etc.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Similarly, I don't think that the ability *designed for a class whose primary function it seems to be is making Power Armor useful* (Prototype Armor Mechanic) is not going to work as a result of this ruling. Common sense says that when your armor gives you a Fly speed of 30 feet, the synonymous reading of that is "your power armor gains a Fly speed of 30 ft" which then confers that to you the character. Since that ability is you tinkering with your armor and doing things with it that have previously been unavailable, sure that fly speed will work on Power Armor.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is what the main discussion was about.
But if I am understanding this correctly, you are saying that Power armor is subject to all negative effects regarding movement but none of the positives.
So the power armor counts as part of the creature only when it regards debuffs but when it comes to buffs it's suddenly a no go zone.
Either it works on both side of the spectrum or none.
The other meaning I can understand from this is that you are saying that powered armor just replaces a set amount of statistics of the PC and that these can be modified after the fact,
wich is a conclusion we reached here.
Similarly, I don't think that the ability...unavailable, sure that fly speed will work on Power Armor.
I completely agree with that the intention was for the armor to be able to fly yes, that is indeed common sense.
But due to the way the ability and the FAQ are currently worded, it cannot function, while you can obviously adjust this in a home campaign, Society with power armor is still rather Borked.
This is what the main discussion was about.
But if I am understanding this correctly, you are saying that Power armor is subject to all negative effects regarding movement but none of the positives.
Pretty much
So the power armor counts as part of the creature only when it regards debuffs but when it comes to buffs it's suddenly a no go zone.
99% of debuffs aren't changing your movement at all. The only one where it's even a gray area is the soldiers gear boost for frost weapons. Everything else doesn't affect your speed.
Either it works on both side of the spectrum or none.
No. It's not set up like that. There does not have to be any balance to this, it could just be all bad and it probably is.
|
|
This is what the main discussion was about.....No. It's not set up like that. There does not have to be any balance to this, it could just be all bad and it probably is.
Before we go down another rabbit hole, I do agree that hold person, paralyze and difficult terrain function as normal against powered armor.
The only debate, at least for me is : Can a haste/fly/slow spell or specific augments like Gravimetric harness or the effect of the augmented archetype class feature increase/decrease a power armor users speed.
I'm sorry if you explained this already but could you explain this with the probably most repeating example.
Why then would slow lower a powered armor's speeds, but haste would not increase it?
The only real confusion is about literal changes to speed.
The only debate, at least for me is : Can a haste
/fly/haste spell or specific augments like Gravimetric harness or
the effect of the augmented archetype class feature increase/decrease a power armor users speed.
No. That was specifically what the FAQ asked and was answered on.
Why then would slow lower a powered armor's speeds, but haste would not increase it?
haste: All of the hasted creature’s Modes of movement (including base, burrow, climb, fly, and swim speeds) increase by 30 feet
So haste definitely doesn't work; giving a creature an enhancement bonus to speed does nothing when the power armor is a replacement.
A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment).
Whats your normal speed ? The speed of the power armor. Half your 'normal' speed is half the normal speed of the powered armor, since that replaced your speed
|
|
haste: All of the hasted creature’s Modes of movement (including base, burrow, climb, fly, and swim speeds) increase by 30 feet
So haste definitely doesn't work; giving a creature an enhancement bonus to speed does nothing when the power armor is a replacement.
A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment).
Whats your normal speed ? The speed of the power armor. Half your 'normal' speed is half the normal speed of the powered armor, since that replaced your speed.
I did not expect this from someone who kept warning people about taking things to literally, slow works because it is not a numerical penalty to speed but it causes the creature to move at half speed.
Common sense says that a creature that is forced to move at half speed has a reduced speed does it not?
As a hypothetical example, due to the way haste is written, each creature gains a 30 feet speed increase up to double the base.
Would it function if it said a hasted creature's speed is doubled, up to a 30 feet increase.
Complaining about people taking things to literally but then using the most RAW interpretation of the rule avoiding common sense all together, for lack of a better word, lacks any common sense.
Would it also work the other way around, for example : two years from now, soldiers get a new gear boost or fighting style that allows them to double their movement up to a 30 feet increase once per rest.
Would this then also work?
If so, it would probably be a bad idea to take things so literally, you yourself commented on the thread I linked to earlier, warning us to not take things literally.
We didn't and we arrived at a conclusion most people agreed with.
Going back to the FAQ, Common sense dictates that power armor jockeys and protoype mechanics should be able to increase the speed of their armor. But due to the way it is currently written, they cannot.
An FAQ is meant to allow very little room for interpretation as to prevent rules debate at tables.
What you are telling me is the meaning of the FAQ is up for debate, which avoids the entire purpose of an FAQ all together
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But due to the way it is currently written, they cannot.
This is just plain not true. To the point that it seems you don't like the faq enough to TRY to read it as a problem.
1) Specific trumps general, if you have an ability that specifically lets you move faster in power armor then its not the general speed boost the faq talks about
2) Increasing the armors speed, or adding a movement type to the armor isn't the same as adding it to the critter inside it. There's no contradiction between increasing the critters speed being ineffective and increasing the armors speed being effective... at all.
70 foot movement Speedy Gorgonzola---->wears 30 foot speed armor--->movement = 30.
70 foot movement speedy gorgonzola----> wears 30 foot armor +10 foot speed boost to armor----> movement =40.
There isn't remotely a contradiction there. Making the character faster has no effect on the armors speed but increasing the armor speed definitely increases the armors speed.