Looking for Build Advice: Half-Orc Slayer Dual Shield Wielder


Advice

1 to 50 of 101 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

Hi guys... Looking for ideas here. I have a dual spiked heavy shield wielding lvl 6 Slayer... I'm trying to figure out how to keep my damage decent while also being a threat on the battlefield so enemies focus me. I'm pretty.much the only person in melee in my party..so I need to be able to take some hits. I took Slayer to lvl 6 to get shield dual wielding with shield master..and I have a greater invisibility cloak (x3 30min uses daily), so I can pretty frequently land my sneak attacks on every hit...at least at this level.

I was thinking of maybe going either barbarian next for rage or fighter siegebreaker for extra shield dmg..but not sure.. also not sure if I should stay dual wielding or switch to 2-handed. Any ideas? Also do note that I can use well known sources... Apg,acg, uc,um,uw,aa, aa2, etc... But nothing weird like Heroes of the Streets without explicit GM permission like with Fighter Siegebreaker. Stat block below:

CN Atheist Half-orc slayer 6
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 12, flat-footed 22 (+7 armor, +2 Dex, +2 natural, +3 shield)
hp 68 (6d10+18)
Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +3
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Initiative: +2
Melee Options:
>TWF:
>>+1 heavy shield bash +12/+7 (2d6+5) & +1 heavy shield bash +12 (2d6+3) [3 atks total]
>>(P.Atk&StdTarget) +1 heavy shield bash +12/+7 (2d6+11) & +1 heavy shield bash +12 (2d6+7) [3 atks total]
>2H:
>>+1 heavy shield bash +12/+7 (2d6+7) [2 atks total]
>>(P.Atk&StdTarget) +1 heavy shield bash +12/+7 (2d6+15) [2 atks total]
Speed:
>30 ft
Special Attacks:
>sneak attack +2d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
>Str 18, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 7
>Base Atk +6; CMB +10; CMD 22
>Feats:
>>Combat Reflexes, Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Shield Master, Shield Slam, Weapon Focus (shield, heavy)
>Traits:
>>armor expert, indomitable faith
>Skills:
>>Acrobatics +10, Intimidate +9, Perception +9, Stealth +10, Survival +9
--------------------
Important Gear
--------------------
- Cloak of Greater Invisibility (3 times use daily)
- +1 mithral breastplate
- +1 bashing shield spikes heavy steel shield
- +1 bashing shield spikes heavy steel shield
- 1,015 gp

Thanks!

edit: Just to be clear. I'm already level 6 and I'm looking for post-lvl 6 advice! Thanks!


Alternatively to damage, you can go with a dirty tricks build to make yourself a threat. Use the dirty fighting feat to qualify for all of the dirty trick feats. And use your combat style to get two weapon fighting and shield master.

The bounty hunter archetype is very good for this, but it isn’t absolutely necessary.


Melkiador wrote:

Alternatively to damage, you can go with a dirty tricks build to make yourself a threat. Use the dirty fighting feat to qualify for all of the dirty trick feats. And use your combat style to get two weapon fighting and shield master.

The bounty hunter archetype is very good for this, but it isn’t absolutely necessary.

I do currently already have shield master (I took it this level..at lvl 6), but do you think I need to take both two weapon fighting AND shield master? It seems redundant to me if I'm using dual shields.. unless I plan on just using TWF for prereqs for something?

And I haven't looked into the bounty hunter archetype, but since I'm already level 6, I believe taking same-class archetypes post-lvl 1 is illegal by RAW (correct me if I'm wrong).. so it probably won't be allowed by the GM. That's why I mainly only looked into multi-classing into different classes... like fighter/barbarian/etc.


I've read that you can take the archetype as late as the level where things start getting swapped out, which doesn't work here. HOWEVER, there are retraining rules that your DM may consider.

To me it's not clear that you actually need TWF to make this build work with Shield Master. I might take it just in case you ever have to fight with a weapon and shield, for instance against a foe who strongly resists bludgeoning damage (of which there are QUITE a few).

I actually wouldn't go Bounty Hunter (despite it offering some advantages) because you give up two Slayer Talents and you need one extra one for this to work by level 6:

L1: Dirty Fighting
L2: Ranger Combat Style: TWF
L3: Improved Shield Bash
L5: Improved Dirty Trick
L6: Quick Dirty Trick and Shield Master (with the favored class bonus which gives an extra 1/6 slayer talent per level)

That would be VERY effective. This would strongly debuff foes and if you blind them first your next attacks get Sneak Attack.

As an aside, how are you getting 2d6 on your bashing shields? Bashing and shield spikes both work by granting virtual size increases to your shields.

Paizo FAQ on weapon virtual size changes wrote:
As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies.

Shield spikes make sense to change damage to piercing and perhaps offer different material to bypass damage reduction, but the 1-size-larger damage dice increase doesn't stack with the 2-sizes-larger increase of the bashing enchantment.


JiaYou wrote:

I've read that you can take the archetype as late as the level where things start getting swapped out, which doesn't work here. HOWEVER, there are retraining rules that your DM may consider.

To me it's not clear that you actually need TWF to make this build work with Shield Master. I might take it just in case you ever have to fight with a weapon and shield, for instance against a foe who strongly resists bludgeoning damage (of which there are QUITE a few).

I actually wouldn't go Bounty Hunter (despite it offering some advantages) because you give up two Slayer Talents and you need one extra one for this to work by level 6:

L1: Dirty Fighting
L2: Ranger Combat Style: TWF
L3: Improved Shield Bash
L5: Improved Dirty Trick
L6: Quick Dirty Trick and Shield Master (with the favored class bonus which gives an extra 1/6 slayer talent per level)

That would be VERY effective. This would strongly debuff foes and if you blind them first your next attacks get Sneak Attack.

As an aside, how are you getting 2d6 on your bashing shields? Bashing and shield spikes both work by granting virtual size increases to your shields.

Paizo FAQ on weapon virtual size changes wrote:
As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies.
Shield spikes make sense to change damage to piercing and perhaps offer different material to bypass damage reduction, but the 1-size-larger damage dice increase doesn't stack with the 2-sizes-larger increase of the bashing enchantment.

I'll look into the retraining rules. Depending on the downtime we get (not too much but he does give us some), I may be able to train out the feats that I already have. And I did think about what happens if I had to use a non-shield, but I was trying to be stubborn and keep to just shields (GM allowed the shield to count has both Piercing and Bludgeoning b/c of the spikes..so that helps).

I wasn't aware I'd have to give up slayer talents... that would definitely be an issue assuming he even lets me go back and take the archetype in the first place.

I like the dirty trick suggestions and I need to look more into it as a combat maneuver. Though do note that, as I mentioned above, I have a greater invisibility cloak that allows 30mins 3x/day of greater invisibility. So usually that helps me get off my sneak attacks during the whole fight. However I do know at later levels I'll run into the issue of enemies not caring about my invisibility, does Dirty Trick have this issue at later levels too (e.g. it not being as effective on higher level enemies post-lvl 10)?

And the 2d6 from the bashing is due to a GM ruling. The AP we're running came out before the FAQ, so he doesn't like editing pulling in errata that came out after. Also, he said it didn't make sense to him personally, so the GM ruling actually benefited me there.


Also curious if people think multiclassing would make sense in my case, or if staying Slayer makes more sense. In addition, whether or not I should stay with the dual wielded shields, or switch to a 2H style (IMO I believe the dual shields help too much with extra sneak attack damage..but maybe I'm missing something). Or maybe I should just be using two shields when I can sneak attack, and one shield when I otherwise cant?


The Cloak: I mean that cloak is unbelievably powerful, so it's probably going to be up to the GM to decide how useful it's going to remain. Also, if the goal is to draw aggro, being invisible is arguably a detriment. Hence Dirty Slayer giving you an edge.

Whether Dirty Trick stays viable: Pretty sure most combat maneuvers begin running out of steam at higher levels unless you invest strongly in them (since CMDs rise very quickly), but Dirty Trick tends to be a good one.

Bounty Hunter: I'd argue it's only the 2nd-level talent that's worthwhile since you get to deal damage while using the dirty trick, but it only works when you can get Sneak Attack, so yes the cloak makes that easy but it may be a concern later.

Multiclassing: What do you feel you're missing out on would be the question. Level 7 in Slayer lets you study targets as move or swift actions, which may help your action economy. 2H is usually the optimum damage dealer but you've got Studied Target, which adds a bonus to both weapons, and Shield Master keeping your attacks at BAB rather than at -2. Especially since your DM has ruled that your shields do 2d6 damage rather than 1d8 (a 2.5 average damage increase), it's arguable that it's worth it. 2H-ing a shield would do a good amount of damage with Power Attack but with Slayer's abilities that apply to all your attacks TWFing is probably the right call, especially since at level 7 you can take Improved TWF if you get a Belt of Dexterity to meet the stat prerequisites and then have four chances to give someone a really bad day.


I was thinking just fighter: you are going to need the Feats and the Advanced Training.

Make one of your shields light; make both spiked. 2 weapon fight with shield bashes.

As soon as possible, take Shield Slam, so every shield bash is a Bull Rush.

Take Greater Bull Rush so you give out Attacks of Opportunity to your party.

There is and advanced training that lets you benefit from Teamwork Feats as if all your allies had them, too. Take Paired Opportunist, and you get Attacks of Opportunity, too.

Take Spiked Destroyer, and you get a Swift Action Armor Spike Attack when you shield bash.

Take Hamatula Strike and you get a free grapple with every hit with a piercing weapon. You are wearing armor spikes, so you every successful grapple gives you extra Armor Spike Damage.

So every time you hit you are going to Grapple and shred them on your armor spikes, then also bull rush them, precipitating Attacks of Opportunity all around that also will be more shield slams that score more grapples, and more attacks of opportunity...

There is another Advance Fighter Training that let you inflict more damage with your weapons as if you were a Warpriest.


JiaYou wrote:
The Cloak

Yeah I could see him somehow either destroying it, or using creatures that don't care about invisibility. However, I'm not nearly the most dangerous (damage wise or battlefield control wise) in our party. So I think he'll ignore me until that happens. But I definitely see the downside in that if I'm invisible, how can I absorb hits for people... So what about something like the Stand Still feat line (Stand Still -> Steady Engagement). So I can stop people from moving and keep them in front of me even when I'm invisible. Or maybe something like the Step up feat line to stay on targets?

JiaYou wrote:
Whether Dirty Trick stays viable

Ok so that's good. I figured at higher levels most things I do would get less useful if I'm not a full caster... but still being able to do something would be nice. Though I'm guessing this would really depend on whether my GM lets me retrain my other feats.. because im already behind on the Dirty Trick related feats.

JiaYou wrote:
Bounty Hunter

Yeah I want to avoid things that are that conditional. And losing the the slayer talents that I can pick from feels really painful. I think I'll probably avoid this for now.

JiaYou wrote:
Multiclassing

My worry with continuing Slayer is that, while I'd still get interesting things (more slayer talents, swift action studied target, etc.), I feel like a lot of the feats I was looking at taking initially were fighter-gated (like the shield related feats). And even not counting that, I figured that I'd be a bit feat starved if I didnt go fighter from level 7 onwards assuming I wanted to go with a style like dirty trick or intimidate, since I had focused really on a style pre-6 besides "hit stuff hard with shield".


Half Orcs are Half Human, so you qualify to take the Human Slayer FCB for 1/6 Slayer Talent, which can add up to 1 extra slayer talent at level 6, and if you haven't been doing this yet, then I would talk to your GM to see if he'll let you retrain those skill points to get a free Slayer Talent.

If you do go Siegebreaker2 (which is totally worth it if you're going to take Bull Rush seriously), you might even consider dropping one of your shields and transition into Brawler2 for the Flurry, and then get Pummeling Style (all attacks added up before DR considered) and Pummeling Charge (full attack on a charge--lvl12) <---- This pwns btw: got a guy beating up one of your squishies? Charge over there and Shield Bash him a couple times and shove him with Bull Rush around every time (provoking AoO's each time too).

I wouldn't retrain anything feats-wise in your build thus far, it looks pretty solid for entering into "phase 2" of whatever build you want to do next.

Personally, I'd recommend going with Greater Bull Rush like Scott Wilhelm was talking about, and taking Siegebreaker2 and Brawler2 for your next 4 levels, and then after that, you can continue Brawler or Slayer again, or go into something else. Having Imp Shield Bash, Shield Slam, and Shield Master really opens the door wide open for going into this, and you will provoke attacks of opportunity from everyone in your group who threatens while you're doing all your pushy-shovy stuff WHILE making your full attack (even when charging around the battlefield). Also, if you're going to be doing all kinds of nasty Shield Bash + Bull Rush, you might consider getting a Maelstrom Shield. Not only does it give you the Bashing (+2 size category dmg increase), but it gives you a Trip Attempt as a Free Action that doesn't provoke an AoO every time you Shield Bash, and 1/day, you can do a Hydraulic Push with it.

If that sounds interesting, let me know, I can help make a build and an Item List for you, like Pauldrons of the Bull (whenever you bull rush, roll twice and take the better result), Armor Spikes(enchant with Bane(Humans) for +2d6 dmg, and Spell Storing-- then have the group Wiz put w/e you want in there) + Spiked Destroyer, Gorgon Belt (ignore difficult terrain while charging, bullrushing, overrun, etc., and 60ft cone paralyze effect 1/day), Boots of Speed (Haste 10rounds per day, gives you an extra attack per round and increases your movement speed for charging really far, as well as giving you a ton of extra movement speed for moving with the target during all those bull rushes), and a bunch more items that will turn a bull rush build into a nightmare on the battlefield ;)


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I was thinking just fighter: you are going to need the Feats and the Advanced Training.

Make one of your shields light; make both spiked. 2 weapon fight with shield bashes.

What's the benefit of making one shield light?

Scott Wilhelm wrote:


As soon as possible, take Shield Slam, so every shield bash is a Bull Rush.

Take Greater Bull Rush so you give out Attacks of Opportunity to your party.

I'll need to take improved bullrush as well right? Assuming that I cant retrain (as I mentioned GM MIGHT let me retrain, but I doubt we'll ever find time). So all this is starting from level 6 Slayer (feats that I already have listed above)..and moving forward.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:


There is and advanced training that lets you benefit from Teamwork Feats as if all your allies had them, too. Take Paired Opportunist, and you get Attacks of Opportunity, too.

I could see this being cool. Teamwork related feats, but my worried is that as I mentioned, I'm the only person in my party that's in melee. So I'm probably going to be the only person for awhile that's going to be making AOOs, at least until the ranger gets snapshot.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:


Take Spiked Destroyer, and you get a Swift Action Armor Spike Attack when you shield bash.

Take Hamatula Strike and you get a free grapple with every hit with a piercing weapon. You are wearing armor spikes, so you every successful grapple gives you extra Armor Spike Damage.

So every time you hit you are going to Grapple and shred them on your armor spikes, then also bull rush them, precipitating Attacks of Opportunity all around that also will be more shield slams that score more grapples, and more attacks of opportunity...

Now this sounds like it would be hilarious. I could image a warrior smacking people with his shield, the immediately latching on with a spiked grapple.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:


There is another Advance Fighter Training that let you inflict more damage with your weapons as if you were a Warpriest.

I've seen that training.. "Focused Weapon". My issue is that if I really am going for Advanced Weapon Training class feature, I'm really waiting until my effective level is 15 (Slayer 6 + Fighter 9). I guess unless I take the feat early as a combat feat (prereq Fighter 5), and then retrain it out when I hit Slayer 6 + Fighter 9...


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Half Orcs are Half Human, so you qualify to take the Human Slayer FCB for 1/6 Slayer Talent, which can add up to 1 extra slayer talent at level 6, and if you haven't been doing this yet, then I would talk to your GM to see if he'll let you retrain those skill points to get a free Slayer Talent.

Texted him and he said that it's perfectly fine. So what Additional slayer talent should I be taking at level 6 on top of what I've already taken?

Ryze Kuja wrote:
If you do go Siegebreaker2 (which is totally worth it if you're going to take Bull Rush seriously), you might even consider dropping one of your shields and transition into Brawler2 for the Flurry, and then get Pummeling Style (all attacks added up before DR considered) and Pummeling Charge (full attack on a charge--lvl12) <---- This pwns btw: got a guy beating up one of your squishies? Charge over there and Shield Bash him a couple times and shove him with Bull Rush around every time (provoking AoO's each time too).

I actually hadn't looked into brawler and don't know much about it's abilities. This is pretty eye opening.

Ryze Kuja wrote:
Personally, I'd recommend going with Greater Bull Rush like Scott Wilhelm was talking about, and taking Siegebreaker2 and Brawler2 for your next 4 levels, and then after that, you can continue Brawler or Slayer again, or go into something else. Having Imp Shield Bash, Shield Slam, and Shield Master really opens the door wide open for going into this, and you will provoke attacks of opportunity from everyone in your group who threatens while you're doing all your pushy-shovy stuff WHILE making your full attack (even when charging around the battlefield). Also, if you're going to be doing all kinds of nasty Shield Bash + Bull Rush, you might consider getting a Maelstrom Shield. Not only does it give you the Bashing (+2 size category dmg increase), but it gives you a Trip Attempt as a Free Action that doesn't provoke an AoO every time you Shield Bash, and 1/day, you can do a Hydraulic Push with it.

This is all music to my ears. Honestly I hadn't heard of Maelstrom Shield either, but since it's in Ultimate Equipment..I can take it if I get the money together (If I survive the next mission, I should have $$ for it).

Ryze Kuja wrote:
If that sounds interesting, let me know, I can help make a build and an Item List for you, like Pauldrons of the Bull (whenever you bull rush,...

It definitely sounds interesting. If you could help with a build/Item list based on where I currently am level/feat-wise, that would help ALOT!


grayson773 wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Half Orcs are Half Human, so you qualify to take the Human Slayer FCB for 1/6 Slayer Talent, which can add up to 1 extra slayer talent at level 6, and if you haven't been doing this yet, then I would talk to your GM to see if he'll let you retrain those skill points to get a free Slayer Talent.

Texted him and he said that it's perfectly fine. So what Additional slayer talent should I be taking at level 6 on top of what I've already taken?

Ryze Kuja wrote:
If you do go Siegebreaker2 (which is totally worth it if you're going to take Bull Rush seriously), you might even consider dropping one of your shields and transition into Brawler2 for the Flurry, and then get Pummeling Style (all attacks added up before DR considered) and Pummeling Charge (full attack on a charge--lvl12) <---- This pwns btw: got a guy beating up one of your squishies? Charge over there and Shield Bash him a couple times and shove him with Bull Rush around every time (provoking AoO's each time too).

I actually hadn't looked into brawler and don't know much about it's abilities. This is pretty eye opening.

Ryze Kuja wrote:
Personally, I'd recommend going with Greater Bull Rush like Scott Wilhelm was talking about, and taking Siegebreaker2 and Brawler2 for your next 4 levels, and then after that, you can continue Brawler or Slayer again, or go into something else. Having Imp Shield Bash, Shield Slam, and Shield Master really opens the door wide open for going into this, and you will provoke attacks of opportunity from everyone in your group who threatens while you're doing all your pushy-shovy stuff WHILE making your full attack (even when charging around the battlefield). Also, if you're going to be doing all kinds of nasty Shield Bash + Bull Rush, you might consider getting a Maelstrom Shield. Not only does it give you the Bashing (+2 size category dmg increase), but it gives you a Trip Attempt as a Free Action that doesn't provoke an AoO every time you Shield Bash, and 1/day,
...

K sounds good. I'm going to be engaged for the rest of the evening, but I'll work on something for you and post it tomorrow morning :)

Which AP are you running and what level do you expect this campaign to end? Also, what is your party composition? Are there any teamwork feats or unusual builds they're using?


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Which AP are you running and what level do you expect this campaign to end? Also, what is your party composition? Are there any teamwork feats or unusual builds they're using?

The AP we're running is something from D&D that our GM converted over and then heavily modified making it closer to a custom built world than anything. But as for the type of enemies we fight... it's a large range. The overarching theme is that we're fighting some cult that looks like their into some creepy rituals to bring back some kinda creatures/demons.. but we've fought everything from ghosts, to golems, to demons, and normal cultists of varying races. Next thing i think will involve some giants...but probably just for one mission.

The GM said he plan son taking us to level 20, assuming we survive. We already had one player die, so it's definitely not a friendly walk in the park though... honestly with the way our group is, I'd say max we'll probably hit is level 15 before we get massacred.

Our party consists of:
1. Me
2. Blasting Sorcerer (would prefer to be flying on magic carpet or with wings)
3. Fighter Archer (pure dps)
4. Healing Domain Cleric (also has fireball but focused on healing)
5. Buffing Bard (Also has telekinesis with a homebrewed item)

They aren't using any teamwork feats and most of their builds are pretty self explanatory by their character type above.. nothing special.

And thank you! I'm really curious to see what insight I can get from your thoughts.


grayson773 wrote:
What's the benefit of making one shield light?

If you are 2 weapon fighting, and your off-hand weapon is light, and if you have the 2 weapon fighting feat, your penalties are only -2 for each weapon. If you have the 2 weapon fighting Feat, and your off-hand weapon is not light, you suffer a -4 on both attacks. That is unless you have some special ability that I overlooked.

grayson773 wrote:
I'll need to take improved bullrush as well right?

Yes, you have to take Improved Bull Rush before you take Greater Bull Rush, but a Ranger can take Shield Slam without taking Improved Shield Bash first, and iirc, that means a Slayer can too.

grayson773 wrote:
So all this is starting from level 6 Slayer (feats that I already have listed above)..and moving forward.

Ah.

I guess that does mean you can't quite follow all my suggestions with this character. I hope you find some things you can use.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
If you are 2 weapon fighting, and your off-hand weapon is light, and if you have the 2 weapon fighting feat, your penalties are only -2 for each weapon. If you have the 2 weapon fighting Feat, and your off-hand weapon is not light, you suffer a -4 on both attacks. That is unless you have some special ability that I overlooked.

Ah ok I see then. Yes Since I have Shield Master and I'm dual-wielding, that negates the penalty anyway. So with that in mind I went ahead and used two Heavy shields. Though, this is only true if I'm dual wielding shields..if I ever want to dual wield something else, I'm going to get hit with some penalties.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Yes, you have to take Improved Bull Rush before you take Greater Bull Rush, but a Ranger can take Shield Slam without taking Improved Shield Bash first, and iirc, that means a Slayer can too.

Yup I took shield Slam and Shield Master at lvl 6 using the Ranger Combat feats... I also took Improved Shield Bash as a normal feat (I think @ lvl 3), just because I didnt want to lose my AC from the Heavy shield.

And Yes I love the tips. I wasn't aware of a lot of what you mentioned and I think with everything i'll learn from this thread, I'll get a good next few levels going. Thank you!


It's true that if you go sword-and-board instead of board-and-board, you'll get hit with penalties, but actually only to the WEAPON; the shield still is at full BAB. The catch is that if you don't have a light WEAPON you're at -8 to hit with the weapon; essentially TWF gives you back a +4 or +6 bonus to hit with a weapon if you have a shield in the other hand.

I'm unclear how Ryze Kuja's suggestion lets you continue to use shields with the Pummeling Style tree: it specifically says it only works with unarmed strikes and no other ability can override that. Secondly, who is going to get an AoO off your bull rushes since it sounds like you're the main martial? (does the Cleric have melee capabilities?) I'm just not sure it fits with your preexisting theme unless there are other feats that make it work I'm not aware of (which is very possible).

I'd still say to take another level of Slayer to get the ability to study someone as a swift action; I believe this gives bonuses to combat maneuvers that involve weapons (so wouldn't work for dirty tricks but would work for trips and bull rushes) and would then possibly give you study+full attacks on relevant targets. Siegebreaker after that would make sense to me.


JiaYou wrote:
It's true that if you go sword-and-board instead of board-and-board, you'll get hit with penalties, but actually only to the WEAPON; the shield still is at full BAB. The catch is that if you don't have a light WEAPON you're at -8 to hit with the weapon; essentially TWF gives you back a +4 or +6 bonus to hit with a weapon if you have a shield in the other hand.

Right ok that makes sense. So ideally I'd want to stick two just using shields because it goes with the theme I'm going for, and it's even more beneficial than normal due to the rules the DM set (spiked shields count has bludgeoning and piercing and spikes + bashing stack).

JiaYou wrote:
I'm unclear how Ryze Kuja's suggestion lets you continue to use shields with the Pummeling Style tree: it specifically says it only works with unarmed strikes and no other ability can override that. Secondly, who is going to get an AoO off your bull rushes since it sounds like you're the main martial? (does the Cleric have melee capabilities?) I'm just not sure it fits with your preexisting theme unless there are other feats that make it work I'm not aware of (which is very possible).

I am also very curious on this point. I don't know much about brawlers in in general, so looking forward to some ideas from Ryze Kuja. Also, You are correct in that I will really be the only person making AOO. The other party members don't do much close range at all, and the archer wont do AOO's until lvl 9+ post-snap shot.

JiaYou wrote:
I'd still say to take another level of Slayer to get the ability to study someone as a swift action; I believe this gives bonuses to combat maneuvers that involve weapons (so wouldn't work for dirty tricks but would work for trips and bull rushes) and would then possibly give you study+full attacks on relevant targets. Siegebreaker after that would make sense to me.

So you'd say Slayer 7 -> Fighter Siegebreaker 13? With a focus on trip/bull rush instead of dirty trick?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Brawlers can perform a flurry with a shield and it's kosher with the rules because it's considered a close weapon. Brawler Flurry w/ Shield Discussion

Lvl1Slayer1 Feat: Improved Shield Bash
Lvl2S2 Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style: Weapon and Shield (Shield Slam)
Lvl3S3 Feat: Combat Reflexes
Lvl4S4 Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent: Weapon Training (Weapon Focus: Heavy Shield)
Lvl5S5 Feat: Power Attack
Lvl6S6 Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style: Shield Master, 1/6 FCB Extra Slayer Talent: Combat Trick: Improved Bull Rush

That's awesome your GM is working with you about the FCB Extra Slayer Talent, so since he's doing that, let's make him suffer! :) Take Improved Bull Rush now and start having fun with the +2 to your CMB. Start saving up as much gold as possible because we got a lotta stuff to buy, so start saving to get some +1 Spell Storing Armor Spikes because we're picking up Spiked Destroyer next level.

Lvl7Brawler1 Feat: Spiked Destroyer

This is our first level of Brawler and now you get Martial Flexibility (MF). You can use MF to gain the effect of any combat feat for 1 minute and you can do this 4 times per day right now. This is great for shoring up your offense or defense on the fly. Get a +1 Spell Storing Enchant ASAP for your Armor Spikes, then have your Sorc, Cleric, or Bard put w/e lvl1-3 spell you want in there: Hold Person, Hydraulic Torrent, Battering Blast, Daylight (this is good for dealing with enemies who are sensitive to bright light), Ray of Enfeeblement, Touch of Gracelessness, Touch of Blindness, Summon Monster III, w/e you want as long as the cast time is a Standard Action. If you do Summon Monster in your Armor Spikes, Cheetah and Leopard are your best choices. Cheetah can charge 500 feet in a round like a ballistic missile that does an attack + trip, and leopards have Pounce and do decent damage with bite/claw/claw/rake, so both of those are really good. If you're surrounded, you can always summon 1d3 Wolves or 1d4+1 Eagles, Dogs, or Dire Rats too (they're not for damage, they're for making sure you don't get surrounded and absorbing 1-2 hits). From here on out, every time you Bull Rush or Overrun a target, make sure you take your Swift Action to smash someone with you shoulder spikes. Battering Blast and Hydraulic Torrent are also a lot of fun to have in your Spell Storing too. This is probably one of the coolest features of this build, so go nuts and experiment with different spells and make a short list of ones you like :) Make very liberal use of this feature, because 1) it's fun as crap, and 2) it's really effective, and after each combat encounter, have the Sorc/Cleric/Bard refill it with something else.

The next enchants you're going to want to get for your armor spikes is Dispelling and Bane (Humans). Or get Bane for w/e you're fighting most. These two enchants are not important to your build though-- they're just nice to have, so if you're having trouble saving for other items, these can be ignored for a long time.

Lvl8Brawler2 Bonus Combat Feat: Pummeling Style

For level 8, we take another level in Brawler. We want Flurry asap, and now we have it, and now we also have Pummeling Style. Get the Maelstrom Shield by this level and get your Sorc to start casting Haste on you so you can start doing some Captain America-level beatdowns (you can still perform a Brawler's Flurry with 2 shields if you want, but I'd recommend going with the 1 shield from now on). Also, Enlarge Person will significantly help your damage and CMB, so have your Sorc cast that on you too. This will stack nicely with your Bashing shield having +2 size category dmg increase. You're going to undoubtedly be facing enemies with DR soon (if you haven't already) so adding up all your damage before applying DR is going to keep your damage output as high as possible. Try to get Monk's Robes by this level because you can actually put them to good use starting right now, but if you don't have them yet, it's not the end of the world, and Monk's Robes aren't critical for this build, they're just nice to have because it increases your Unarmed Strike damage and Brawler Bonus AC by 5 levels.

Lvl9Siegebreaker1 Feat: Greater Bull Rush

You said you only have one guy who's going to be doing AoO's with you, and that's your Fighter Archer with Snap Shot at level 9, so now is a perfect time to grab Greater Bull Rush. Here's where your pushy-shovy starts to shine because now you're going to provoke an AoO from your ally every time you Bull Rush. So have him get Improved Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes asap and his damage is going to make a significant jump. The Siegebreaker1 ability called Breaker Rush is also now online, so now you can start causing damage with your free Bull Rushes.

Lvl10Siegebreaker2

Here's the level where your DM is going to start pulling out his hair. You don't pick up a feat this level, but you get that juicy SB2 ability called Breaker Momentum and buy some Giant Fist Gauntlets for free Bull Rush every time you make an Unarmed attack. You can get these as early as lvl 8 or 9 and they'll still do work, but you should absolutely have these by lvl 10 because they're just too good with the Siegebreaker2 ability. I would be using your MF to pick up Improved Overrun each time you get into combat right now (at least until you pick up Improved Overrun for real next level), because this is the first time we can start getting fancy with the Bull Rush + Free Overrun and cause your StrMod +2 ImpBr/ImpOvrn damage + Shield enhancement as free damage with each maneuver. So we're going to head back to Brawler after this, OR, you could even go back to Slayer if you want. I'm going to continue as if you're going Brawler though because Brawler level 8 is the sweet spot for having Improved TWF and your MF will be 2 Feats at a time, and the Bonus Combat Feats are really nice to have too.

So here's what a Full Attack looks like with Haste and Giant Fist Gauntlets at level 10:

Unarmed Strike + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Swift Action Armor Spikes+SpellDischarge + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Shield Bash + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Trip + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Unarmed Strike + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Shield Bash + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Trip + Free Overrun (cause dmg)

Next level, we get 11 BAB, so insert another Unarmed Strike plus all the shenanigans.

Lvl11Brawler3 Maneuver Training (Bull Rush +1), Feat: Improved Overrun

With Haste, you should be doing about 5 attacks per round now, so with the Giant Fist Gauntlets active and bashing with the Maelstrom Shield, that's 5 free Bull Rushes and 5 free Overruns and a free Trip attempt with every shield bash, and you're going to be causing your StrMod +2ImpBR/ImpOvRn +Shield Enchantment in damage each time you do either maneuver (This damage is coming from your Siegebreaker 1 ability).

Lvl12B4

We don't get a feat this level, but now Pummeling Charge can be plugged in with MF. With haste, that's 60ft move speed, so you can perform 120ft charges and get a full attack off with all of your pushy-shovy goodness. This is pseudo-pinnacle of the build because you should have enough Martial Flexibility minutes to have Pummeling Charge active for every single combat encounter in a day.

Lvl13B5 Feat: Pummeling Charge

This is probably the first level where you start facing enemies that have a CMD high enough to make your Bull Rushing start becoming unreliable, so make sure you have Pauldrons of the Bull by now so you can roll twice and take the better result for your Bull Rushes. At this point, your build is complete. Anything you do from here on out is icing on the cake.

Lvl14B6
Lvl15B7
Lvl16B8 Improved TWF for Flurry. With 16 BAB and haste, that's 7 attacks per round.
Lvl17AnyClass, maybe go back to Slayer for more SnA? Or keep going Brawler? It's up to you.
Lvl18
Lvl19
Lvl20

I think it's a good idea to get Slayer level 7 at some point, because Study Target as a Swift is pretty good (even though your Swift actions are already spoken for with Spiked Destroyer, it's still nice to have options). But, I'd argue that Spiked Destroyer far outweighs the benefit of Studying as a Swift, so I wouldn't get Slayer 7 until probably after you get Siegebreaker2 at level 10. Pummeling Charge completes your build, so don't make any decisions that would prevent you from pseudo-getting this at level 12 and getting it for real at level 13; you want to get to this asap.

==========================================================

[u]Build-critical items:[/u]
Giant Fist Gauntlets
Pauldrons of the Bull
Maelstrom Shield
Armor Spikes + Spell Storing Enchant
Boots of Speed (or Haste from Sorc) Haste is critical to the build because you absolutely need need NEED the extra movement speed so you can follow your target on all your Bull Rushes and Overruns. The second you can't follow your target because you run out of movement, the ShieldBash+trip/Unarmed Strike +BR +Overrun shenanigans end.

[u]Nice to have items:[/u]
Belt of Thunderous Charging or Gorgon Belt (dealer's choice, they're both good)
Brawling Armor Enchant
Monk's Robes
Dispel and Bane enchants on Armor Spikes
Amulet of Mighty Fists
Ring of the Ram


Wow this is a very thorough overview/walk-through and Thank you! I need to take my time, read through this, and even build the sample character in Hero Lab. However I'm about to head out to eat. So until I get back home, a couple of questions (if some of these seem obvious, sorry):

1. Brawler Flurry is basically the same as Monk Flurry?
2. I see Pummeling style only works with unarmed, so that's why you're saying might as well only use 1 shield? Is there a downside to having two equipped, and just just head/elbows/legs to flurry?
3. Also, is there a benefit to even using a shield at all with pummeling style, since only the attacks without the shield will get to take advantage of it?
4. Pummeling Charge says I can only use it in that way if ALL of my attacks qualify for Pummeling Style.. does that mean that at this point I'd want to be using only unarmed attacks?

Ok I'll definitely have more questions when I get back and as I start to build the character, but this is looking awesome! Please humor me if I ask anything silly lol.


grayson773 wrote:

Wow this is a very thorough overview/walk-through and Thank you! I need to take my time, read through this, and even build the sample character in Hero Lab. However I'm about to head out to eat. So until I get back home, a couple of questions (if some of these seem obvious, sorry):

1. Brawler Flurry is basically the same as Monk Flurry?
2. I see Pummeling style only works with unarmed, so that's why you're saying might as well only use 1 shield? Is there a downside to having two equipped, and just just head/elbows/legs to flurry?
3. Also, is there a benefit to even using a shield at all with pummeling style, since only the attacks without the shield will get to take advantage of it?
4. Pummeling Charge says I can only use it in that way if ALL of my attacks qualify for Pummeling Style.. does that mean that at this point I'd want to be using only unarmed attacks?

Ok I'll definitely have more questions when I get back and as I start to build the character, but this is looking awesome! Please humor me if I ask anything silly lol.

1) It is almost exactly the same, except the only noticeable difference being that Brawlers can perform a Flurry with Unarmed Strikes, Monk weapons, or Close weapons. Monks get the same thing, except cannot use Close weapons in their flurry.

2) Well, that's kinda up in the air. Pummeling Style specifically calls out Brawler's Flurry as a prerequisite, and a Brawler is intended to perform a Flurry using a mix of strikes from unarmed, close weapons, and monk weapons... and furthermore, Brawlers become so adept at using Close weapons that they can substitute their Unarmed Strike damage for their Close weapon damage, albeit at -4 levels, but the point is that Brawlers are very much supposed to be using Close weapons in a flurry to pummel you into orange goo.... however, a strict RAW reading of Pummeling Style would seem to not allow this, but RAI, I believe that it was intended to allow a Brawler to do this (otherwise why would they make Brawler Flurry a prereq?). This is a GM call tbh. If your GM says no, it's not a big deal, don't shield bash during a flurry if you think your target has DR, just use your knees, elbows, feet, and fists instead. With the Monk's Robes and scaling unarmed strike damage, you'd deal more damage than shield bashing anyway. Every other enemy you face that doesn't have DR or has DR that you can bypass can still be Shield Bashed in a flurry.

3) Yes absolutely, the AC bonus will end up being a +7 AC when it's fully enchanted, and that's really important on its own. Plus, you're only going to need the Pummeling Style for dealing with the certain enemies that you can't bypass whatever DR they have, which does come up often enough that you definitely need Pummeling Style, but not often enough that you'll never Shield Bash again.

4) Yeah, if your GM says no to the Shield Bash qualifying for pummeling, that's completely understandable, and if so, then just make all your attacks as unarmed. No biggie.


Thanks for the super-detailed explanation!


JiaYou wrote:
Thanks for the super-detailed explanation!

NP :)


I asked my GM and he said NOO WAY on allowing the pummeling tree to work with weapons, since it explicitly said it doesnt, and he found an FAQ saying it only works with unarmed again, :[. So I started building the character in Hero Lab.. here are the level 10 stats:

half-orc brawler 2/fighter (siegebreaker) 2/slayer 6
--------------------
Offense (HASTED)
--------------------
Speed 60 ft.
Melee +1 heavy shield bash +17/+17/+12 (2d6+5) or
. . +1 heavy shield bash flurry of blows +15/+15/+15/+10 (2d6+5) or
. . +1 heavy shield bash +17/+17 (2d6+3) or
. . +1 heavy shield bash flurry of blows +15/+15/+15/+10 (2d6+5) or
. . +1 spell storing armor spikes +16/+16/+11 (1d6+5) or
. . +1 spell storing armor spikes flurry of blows +14/+14/+14/+9 (1d6+5) or
. . unarmed strike +15/+15/+10 (1d8+4) or
. . unarmed strike flurry of blows +13/+13/+13/+8 (1d8+4)
Special Attacks brawler's flurry, breaker momentum, breaker rush, martial flexibility 4/day (improved overrun), sneak attack +2d6, studied target +2 (2nd, move action)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 19, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +15 (+19 bull rush, +17 overrun); CMD 28 (30 vs. bull rush, 30 vs. overrun)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Greater Bull Rush, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Pummeling Style[ACG], Shield Master, Shield Slam, Spiked Destroyer, Weapon Focus (shield, heavy)
Traits armor expert, indomitable faith
Combat Gear giant fist gauntlets[UE], +1 armor spikes mithral breastplate, +1 bashing shield spikes heavy steel shield, +1 bashing shield spikes heavy steel shield, monk's robe

This is assuming things like power-attack, studied target, etc..are not being used... the only active buff is haste.

So a couple of things:
1) Can I flurry with one weapon? E.g. say I was a one armed man (no legs, only one arm), could I flurry 4 times with that one arm? Or, does it have to alternate between limbs? I ask because if I use Power Attack, my primary Shield will have better damage (2d6+11 vs 2d6+6) than my secondary shield.
2) What would be the benefit of attacking with unarmed at this point? Both unarmed (with gauntlet) and shield attacks would do bull rushes, but shield attacks have both a better To hit (15/15/15/10) and damage (avg 12 vs avg 8.5)
3) I understand that if I'm trying to penetrate DR at this level, then I'll want to use all unarmed attacks, but does it ever become the point that it's simply better (average damage/to hit-wise) to just use unarmed regardless and throw away the shields? When my unarmed fist damage = 2d6? As that isn't until Brawler 7th (Total level 15), due to Monk's Robes.
4) Is the free-trip after shield slamming bull rush just due to the free overrun? Or did I miss something. I noticed you didn't list "free trip" after the unarmed strike bull rush, so I wasn't sure.
5) Finally for now, is there anyway to get a summon spell as a standard action? I'd love to put a summon spell into my spell storing enchantment, but whenever i check, they keep saying it's a 1 round action to summon.

Thanks! Sorry for all the questions, but I'm learning a lot haha.


Have you looked at the Living Avalanche Brawler archetype for synergy with the Siegebreaker Fighter levels?


VoodistMonk wrote:
Have you looked at the Living Avalanche Brawler archetype for synergy with the Siegebreaker Fighter levels?

I haven't but I am now! Didnt even know this existed.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
grayson773 wrote:


So a couple of things:
1) Can I flurry with one weapon? E.g. say I was a one armed man (no legs, only one arm), could I flurry 4 times with that one arm? Or, does it have to alternate between limbs? I ask because if I use Power Attack, my primary Shield will have better damage (2d6+11 vs 2d6+6) than my secondary shield.
2) What would be the benefit of attacking with unarmed at this point? Both unarmed (with gauntlet) and shield attacks would do bull rushes, but shield attacks have both a better To hit (15/15/15/10) and damage (avg 12 vs avg 8.5)
3) I understand that if I'm trying to penetrate DR at this level, then I'll want to use all unarmed attacks, but does it ever become the point that it's simply better (average damage/to hit-wise) to just use unarmed regardless and throw away the shields? When my unarmed fist damage = 2d6? As that isn't until Brawler 7th (Total level 15), due to Monk's Robes.
4) Is the free-trip after shield slamming bull rush just due to the free overrun? Or did I miss something. I noticed you didn't list "free trip" after the unarmed strike bull rush, so I wasn't sure.
5) Finally for now, is there anyway to get a summon spell as a standard action? I'd love to put a summon spell into my spell storing enchantment, but whenever i check, they keep saying it's a 1 round action to summon.

1) Yes, you can flurry with one weapon, or two weapons, or no weapon, but it's expected that you will be alternating attacks using your elbows, fists, knees, and feet when doing this because you're considered using Two-Weapon Fighting when you do this. Of quick note, a Brawler's flurry doesn't have reduced damage for off-hand attacks, each attack gets your full Str bonus.

Brawler wrote:

Brawler’s Flurry (Ex)

Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler’s flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the “monk” special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.

A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler’s flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands. A brawler can substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of brawler’s flurry. A brawler with natural weapons can’t use such weapons as part of brawler’s flurry, nor can she make natural weapon attacks in addition to her brawler’s flurry attacks.

At 8th level, the brawler gains use of the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat when using brawler’s flurry. At 15th level, she gains use of the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat when using brawler’s flurry.

2) At this point, you're better off going with Shield Bash during a Flurry because your unarmed strike damage isn't higher yet. You need Brawler level 7 and Monk's Robes before your damage gets on par with your Shield (2d6 dmg). So if you're facing a target with DR that you can bypass, or an opponent who has no DR, then absolutely yes, Shield Bash the stuffing out of that guy. If the target has DR that you cannot bypass, then deal all your attacks as Unarmed. Otherwise their DR will reduce your attacks individually and you'll be causing significantly less damage than you could be.

3) Yeah, ideally, you'd want to do this sort of build as Siegebreaker2/BrawlerX with no levels in Slayer, because your Unarmed Strike damage would be as high as it could possibly be, especially with Monk's Robes. But it's not like your damage will be lacking with your SnA damage from Slayer, so it's not a waste to have Slayer levels (and in fact, I'd argue that it isn't, because you get some really good stuff from Slayer Talents in those levels). So to make up for the lack of your unarmed strike damage, be sure to force your SnA damage either from Flanking or from your Gr Invis cloak. If you want to increase your damage with Unarmed, I'd recommend figuring out a way that your group could use the spell Strong Jaw on you for a +2 Size increase to your unarmed attacks (and then your Unarmed Strike damage will be far superior to Shield Bash damage). This will stack with Enlarge Person from your Sorc for an additional +1 Size increase. Level 13+, you could even start working towards Cornugon Smash and Shattered Defenses. Cornugon Smash causes your target to become Shakened, and Shattered Defenses causes Shakened targets to become Flat-Footed, which means Sneak Attacks all day erry day, and as an added bonus, your target has no dex bonus or dodge bonus to their AC or CMD. So your Attacks and Bull Rushes/Overruns/Trips will almost auto-succeed.

4) The Free Trip is from your Maelstrom Shield, and that triggers after a Shield Bash. The big thing about using a Maelstrom Shield is that you get to Trip a target for free even though you have nothing invested into trip. And Trip is really good. For 1), this prevents them from getting a Full Attack on you because they have to use a Move Action to get up, and 2) this provokes an AoO from you when they stand up, and 3) after you trip a target, they're -4 AC while prone, so you will enjoy a figurative +4 to hit with every subsequent attack until they get off the ground. AND if you were feeling froggy for one encounter, there's no reason why you couldn't get Improved/Greater Trip from Martial Flexibility, and then with Greater Trip, you'll Provoke an AoO when they fall AND when they get up. It's a really good shield that gives you lots of options, and if for some strange reason you're unable to close a gap, use your 1/day Hydraulic Push at 25ft + 5ft/2lvls.

And even when your Unarmed attacks start dealing more damage than your shield, I'd still keep the shield on. The +7 AC is worth it alone. You can still make every single one of your attacks as Unarmed Strikes, and having the option to Trip whenever you want to is also pretty spiffy.

5) That was my mistake on the Summon Monster. For some reason I was thinking SM was Standard Action. Summoners can summon as a Standard action, so maybe I was thinking about that :P


So let's talk about some Spell Strategy for your Spiked Destroyer + Spell Storing Armor Spikes. You can take a Swift Action at any point in time that you can take a Free Action, so this can be performed at any point in time during your turn, even in the middle of your Full Attack action. Earlier, I put the Swift Action Armor Spikes+Spell Discharge after your First Bull Rush (see below), but it can actually happen after any of your Bull Rushes or Overruns.

Unarmed Strike + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Swift Action Armor Spikes+SpellDischarge + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Shield Bash + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Trip + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Unarmed Strike + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Shield Bash + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Trip + Free Overrun (cause dmg)

So it really depends on what spell you have stored in your Armor Spikes. Because if you have Battering Blast or Hydraulic Torrent stored, you wouldn't want to discharge that on your first Bull Rush because now you can't follow the target and your turn ends. Both of those spells have the potential to send your target flying across the battlefield, so that would be best used at the end of your turn. Conversely, Hold Person would be something you'd want to put on the target at the Beginning of your turn because then they're paralyzed for the rest of your attacks; have fun pulverizing a Zero Dex target (with SnA damage too).

But a spell like Air Geyser would be good to use at a very specific time in your chain of attacks, bull rushes, and overruns. Like, let's say you're in a BBEG's room and the room is a perfect cube, 80ft wide by 80ft by 80ft tall, except in the corner of the room there's a large wooden shelf holding who cares what, but it's 40ft up and 10ft wide by 10ft wide. You could Attack the BBEG and Bull Rush and Overrun him until you've essentially repositioned him on the other side of the room, and as soon as he's under the shelf, now you take your Swift Action to Shoulder ram him and discharge your Air Geyser, now he gets flung Caster Level x5 ft in the air (let's say you're level 9 and it's 45ft), so he's going to take 4d6 Falling damage when he gets smacked on the bottom of the shelf from the upwards movement from Air Geyser, then he's going to fall 40ft back down and take 4d6 more falling damage and now be prone next to you, and then you finish whatever attacks you have in the round, if any.

The important thing to do is to experiment and play with it though, and figure out which spells are your favorite. Since you can only fit level 1-3 spells in there, you'll probably want to transition into No Save (like Touch spells) or Half-dmg on Save spells at higher levels.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
grayson773 wrote:


So a couple of things:
1) Can I flurry with one weapon? E.g. say I was a one armed man (no legs, only one arm), could I flurry 4 times with that one arm? Or, does it have to alternate between limbs? I ask because if I use Power Attack, my primary Shield will have better damage (2d6+11 vs 2d6+6) than my secondary shield.
2) What would be the benefit of attacking with unarmed at this point? Both unarmed (with gauntlet) and shield attacks would do bull rushes, but shield attacks have both a better To hit (15/15/15/10) and damage (avg 12 vs avg 8.5)
3) I understand that if I'm trying to penetrate DR at this level, then I'll want to use all unarmed attacks, but does it ever become the point that it's simply better (average damage/to hit-wise) to just use unarmed regardless and throw away the shields? When my unarmed fist damage = 2d6? As that isn't until Brawler 7th (Total level 15), due to Monk's Robes.
4) Is the free-trip after shield slamming bull rush just due to the free overrun? Or did I miss something. I noticed you didn't list "free trip" after the unarmed strike bull rush, so I wasn't sure.
5) Finally for now, is there anyway to get a summon spell as a standard action? I'd love to put a summon spell into my spell storing enchantment, but whenever i check, they keep saying it's a 1 round action to summon.

1) Yes, you can flurry with one weapon, or two weapons, or no weapon, but it's expected that you will be alternating attacks using your elbows, fists, knees, and feet when doing this because you're considered using Two-Weapon Fighting when you do this. Of quick note, a Brawler's flurry doesn't have reduced damage for off-hand attacks, each attack gets your full Str bonus.

Brawler wrote:

Brawler’s Flurry (Ex)

Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler’s flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon

...

Brawler's Flurry with your Heavy Shield! Good one!

Now with your Maelstrom Shield, you get your free Trip, and with Shield Slam, you get your free Bull Rush, you might take Greater Trip, Greater Bull Rush, and Vicious Stomp, then dip a level in Cavalier and take Paired Opportunist. Then with every hit with your Shield, you and all your allies get 3 Attacks of Opportunity!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ryze Kuja wrote:
So let's talk about some Spell Strategy...

Thank you for this. I like the idea that I can be creative with this, and ill have to look at opportunities to try out some really weird spell combinations.

So I'm trying to figure out item priority based on the money I will have... can you help me fill in the priority for these items? The format that I threw together is:

-(priority) Item Name
. . Get by: max level to grab
. . cost: cost
. . Notes: questions/thoughts on the item

Items:
-(1) Add Spikes and Spell Storing to Mithril Breastplate
. . Get by: lvl 7
. . Cost: 8,350 gp
. . Notes:
. . . . Upgrade pre-existing breastplate

-(2) Maelstrom Shield
. . Get by: lvl 8
. . Cost: 14,170 gp
. . Notes:
. . . . Cant add spikes (dmg 1d8)
. . . . 1d8 dmg + trip better than 2d6 dmg right?
. . . . Should I buy two? Or no only one, because may be switching fully to unarmed only w/ Monk's robe
. . . . Without Monk's robe, unarmed doesn't pass shield dmg until lvl 20

-(3) Giant Fist Gauntlets
. . Get by: lvl 10
. . Cost: 20,000 gp
. . Notes:
. . . . Continues damage when unarmed
. . . . Only useful if: 1) attacking vs DR so unarmed is used, 2) unarmed is more than shield damage due to Monk robes

-(?) Pauldrons of the Bull
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 10,000 gp

-(?) Boots of Speed
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 12,000 gp
. . Notes:
. . . . May not be necessary as buffer bard / sorcerer are in party

-(?) Monk's Robes
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 13,000 gp

-(?) Belt of Thunderous Charging
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 10,000 gp

-(?) Gorgon's Belt
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 23,000 gp
. . Notes:
. . . . Ignoring terrain sounds great, but does poor terrain still affect bull-rush/overrun since I'm not doing it as part of a charge

-(?) Add Dispelling to Spiked Spell Storing Mithril Breastplate
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 10,000 gp

-(?) Brawling Armor Enchant
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: +3 enchant

-(?) Amulet of Might Fists
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 4000
. . Notes:
. . . . What are some good enchants besides flat for this?

-(?) Ring of the Ram
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 8600
. . Notes:
. . . . Can I apply my bonus damage to the bullrushes caused by this item?


grayson773 wrote:


Items:
-(1) Add Spikes and Spell Storing to Mithril Breastplate
. . Get by: lvl 7
. . Cost: 8,350 gp
. . Notes:
. . . . Upgrade pre-existing breastplate

Yes, perfect.

grayson773 wrote:


-(2) Maelstrom Shield
. . Get by: lvl 8
. . Cost: 14,170 gp
. . Notes:
. . . . Cant add spikes (dmg 1d8)
. . . . 1d8 dmg + trip better than 2d6 dmg right?
. . . . Should I buy two? Or no only one, because may be switching fully to unarmed only w/ Monk's robe
. . . . Without Monk's robe, unarmed doesn't pass shield dmg until lvl 20

Yes, definitely get the Maelstrom Shield over Monk's Robes. Don't buy two, you only need the one, and the only reason you want this is for the free trip with the shield bash. The Monk's Robes are really good, but they're not critical to the build. They're just really nice to have because it increases your dmg output with unarmed strikes and your AC bonus from brawler levels. The real threat and focus of this build is your ability to attack with unarmed or shield and Shove someone 5-10ft with Bull Rush, then Overrun to enter and exit their square (on any side), and then Shove them in a new direction with your next attack/bullrush 5-10ft, and then enter/exit their square with Overrun (exiting their square whichever side you want), and then Shove them in a new direction with your next attack 5-10ft, and rinse lather repeat. You will be causing most of your damage simply from the static damage of the Bull Rushes and Overruns. Every time you Bull Rush or Overrun, you're going to cause your StrMod + ImpBR/ImpOR + ShieldEnhancement as damage, and it's static damage, so you don't roll it, it's just free damage that happens on top of all the pushy-shovyness. So let's say if your Str is 18, that's a mod of 4, and you will have ImpBR and ImpOR from actual feats or MF'ed feats, so that's a +2 dmg, and whatever your shield enhancement is, which baseline Maelstrom Shield is +1, so that's 7 damage with every maneuver. So this is MINIMUM 7 damage. You're doing 2 maneuvers every time you attack so that's 14 unrolled damage with every attack. At level 10, you're doing 4 attacks a round, so that's 56 static damage every round simply because of the maneuvers, and that's 56 static damage that doesn't include any of the damage from your actual attacks from shield bash or unarmed strikes during your flurry.

At level 11, that's 5 attacks per round (with haste), so if you're causing 7 dmg per maneuver, that's a potential 70 static damage per round just from the maneuvers. If you increase your Strength Mod by 1 and Shield Enchant by 1, and now that static damage is going to become 9 damage per maneuver. 5 attacks per round + 2 maneuvers each attack = 90 static unrolled damage per round plus all your actual attack damage from your flurry.

It ends up being a crapton of damage at level 20, because by then you're going to have a 28-30ish Str unbuffed, so that's 9-10 StrMod + 2 ImpBR/OR + 5 ShieldEnchant, so 16-17 dmg per maneuver (32-34 dmg with both maneuvers, and then x7 attacks). And may the gods be with your enemies if your allies buff up your Unarmed Strike damage with Strong Jaw and then increase your size with Enlarge Person while you have seven attacks per round starting at level 16, and there's simply no hope for them if you have Shatter Defenses by then, because you're going to cause your SnA damage with every attack too and now they're denied their dex bonus to AC/CMD (7 SnA attacks at 2d6 = potential 14d6 SnA damage per round). This is straight up curbstomp stuff.

grayson773 wrote:


-(3) Giant Fist Gauntlets
. . Get by: lvl 10
. . Cost: 20,000 gp
. . Notes:
. . . . Continues damage when unarmed
. . . . Only useful if: 1) attacking vs DR so unarmed is used, 2) unarmed is more than shield damage due to Monk robes

Giant Fist Gauntlets are absolutely imperative to this build, because it gives every single one of your unarmed flurry attacks the ability to get a free Bull Rush + Overrun (with SB2). So this item is not "only useful if". You want the ability to attack, shove someone 5ft to 10ft (or even 15ft if you want), and then Overrun them and enter their square and exit in a square that is somewhere beneficial to you, and then with your next attack, you shove them in a new direction, and overrun them and enter/exit their square, and then shove them in a new direction with your next attack, and rinse, lather, repeat. The entire point of this build is to combat control with Bull Rush and Overrun, and shove a single target wherever your group needs them to be (and once you have Pummeling Charge, you're going to be charging up to 120ft around the battlefield repositioning the baddies w/e your heart desires, as long as your movement allows). This applies to the BBEG, or any baddie who is becoming a pain for one of your squishies, or anyone who's nearby a 40ft shelf. You're a combat controller first, but the damage you inflict is secondary, but the damage is definitely there. You're not going to be lacking in the dmg department at all, especially if you can force your 2d6 SnA damage with each hit.

grayson773 wrote:


-(?) Pauldrons of the Bull
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 10,000 gp

You need these around level 13-15, because enemies at this level have some pretty redonk CMD's. Rolling Twice and taking the better result gives you a leg-up on dealing with this until you can get the "nice to have" items that make your CMB equally redonk.

grayson773 wrote:


-(?) Boots of Speed
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 12,000 gp
. . Notes:
. . . . May not be necessary as buffer bard / sorcerer are in party

Haste is absolutely critical for this build, and I don't say this lightely. You cannot do all the aforementioned stuff without having Haste. As soon as your movement speed ends, you cannot follow your target for the Bull Rush + Overrun stuff, and thusly, your round ends. So, if your allies cannot be relied upon for Haste 110% of the time, you need the Boots of Speed for the 1 single round that they don't provide this for you.

grayson773 wrote:


-(?) Monk's Robes
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 13,000 gp

Nice to have, but not critical to the build at all. It just increases your unarmed strike damage and brawler AC bonus.

grayson773 wrote:


-(?) Belt of Thunderous Charging
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 10,000 gp

Also nice to have, but not critical to the build. It just gives you a +2 to your CMB while charging while acting like a big six item at the same time, so once you have Pummeling Charge, these will be beneficial.

grayson773 wrote:


-(?) Gorgon's Belt
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 23,000 gp
. . Notes:
. . . . Ignoring terrain sounds great, but does poor terrain still affect bull-rush/overrun since I'm not doing it as part of a charge

Ignoring terrain is really nice, but it's not crucial to this build. Honestly I find the main draw of this to be the paralyze cone. If that's not your bag baby, then consider the Belt of Thunderous Charging instead.

grayson773 wrote:


-(?) Add Dispelling to Spiked Spell Storing Mithril Breastplate
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 10,000 gp

This is not a priority at all. This is nice to have because Dispelling your target of any buffs he might have (every round) is pretty friggin handy. That's all it is. It's not crucial to the build.

grayson773 wrote:


-(?) Brawling Armor Enchant
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: +3 enchant

This isn't a priority either, but it's really nice to have. It gives you a +2 to attack and damage with unarmed strikes, and that +2 to attack would apply to your CMB when you're doing bull rushes with the Giant Fist Gauntlets. Again, not crucial to the build, just really nice to have if you can afford it.

grayson773 wrote:


-(?) Amulet of Might Fists
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 4000
. . Notes:...

The AoMF is the same as a weapon. You want to enchant this thing like a weapon that you want going off every time you attack with an unarmed strike. So make this a +5 as soon as you can, and of course, enchant this with things like Flaming for +1d6 fire damage, Fortuitous for +1 Attack of Opportunity per round, Brilliant Energy to bypass Armor, etc., whatever you want your unarmed strike to have. Think of this like a weapon enchant. What do you want to happen every time you strike? Enchant your AoMF with that.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
grayson773 wrote:


So a couple of things:
1) Can I flurry with one weapon? E.g. say I was a one armed man (no legs, only one arm), could I flurry 4 times with that one arm? Or, does it have to alternate between limbs? I ask because if I use Power Attack, my primary Shield will have better damage (2d6+11 vs 2d6+6) than my secondary shield.
2) What would be the benefit of attacking with unarmed at this point? Both unarmed (with gauntlet) and shield attacks would do bull rushes, but shield attacks have both a better To hit (15/15/15/10) and damage (avg 12 vs avg 8.5)
3) I understand that if I'm trying to penetrate DR at this level, then I'll want to use all unarmed attacks, but does it ever become the point that it's simply better (average damage/to hit-wise) to just use unarmed regardless and throw away the shields? When my unarmed fist damage = 2d6? As that isn't until Brawler 7th (Total level 15), due to Monk's Robes.
4) Is the free-trip after shield slamming bull rush just due to the free overrun? Or did I miss something. I noticed you didn't list "free trip" after the unarmed strike bull rush, so I wasn't sure.
5) Finally for now, is there anyway to get a summon spell as a standard action? I'd love to put a summon spell into my spell storing enchantment, but whenever i check, they keep saying it's a 1 round action to summon.

1) Yes, you can flurry with one weapon, or two weapons, or no weapon, but it's expected that you will be alternating attacks using your elbows, fists, knees, and feet when doing this because you're considered using Two-Weapon Fighting when you do this. Of quick note, a Brawler's flurry doesn't have reduced damage for off-hand attacks, each attack gets your full Str bonus.

Brawler wrote:

Brawler’s Flurry (Ex)

Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler’s flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons

...

It is an absolute shame that he doesn't have more people in his group who can capitalize on the metric asston of AoO's he can provoke :(


Ryze Kuja wrote:
It is an absolute shame that he doesn't have more people in his group who can capitalize on the metric asston of AoO's he can provoke :(

Yeah it is a shame ;[. I may be re-using this for another campaign where we have 3 characters in melee.

Ok I think I have an understanding of the build.. see below:

half-orc brawler 5/fighter (siegebreaker) 2/slayer 6
N Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Current Buffs (Haste + Power Attack + Studied Target)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Init +2;
Speed 30 / 60 ft. w/ Haste
Melee
. . +1 heavy shield bash +19/+19/+14/+9 (2d6+16) or
. . +1 heavy shield bash flurry of blows +17/+17/+17/+12/+7 (2d6+16) or
. . +1 heavy shield bash +19/+19 (2d6+9) or
. . +1 heavy shield bash flurry of blows +17/+17/+17/+12/+7 (2d6+16) or
. . Malestrom heavy shield bash +19/+19/+14/+9 (1d8+16) or
. . Malestrom heavy shield bash flurry of blows +17/+17/+17/+12/+7 (1d8+16) or
. . +1 spell storing armor spikes +18/+18/+13/+8 (1d6+16) or
. . +1 spell storing armor spikes flurry of blows +16/+16/+16/+11/+6 (1d6+16) or
. . unarmed strike +17/+17/+12/+7 (1d8+15) or
. . unarmed strike flurry of blows +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 (1d8+15)
Special Attacks brawler's flurry, brawler's strike (magic), breaker momentum, breaker rush, knockout 1/day (DC 17), maneuver training (bull rush +1), martial flexibility 5/day, sneak attack +2d6, studied target +2 (2nd, move action)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 7
Base Atk +13; CMB +17 (+22 bull rush, +19 overrun); CMD 32 (35 vs. bull rush, 34 vs. overrun)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Greater Bull Rush, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Pummeling Charge[ACG], Pummeling Style[ACG], Shield Master, Shield Slam, Spiked Destroyer, Stand Still, Steady Engagement, Weapon Focus (shield, heavy)
Traits armor expert, indomitable faith
Skills Acrobatics +17 (+29 to jump), Bluff +0, Intimidate +13, Perception +17, Sense Motive +2, Stealth +12, Survival +11; Racial Modifiers +2 Intimidate
Combat Gear giant fist gauntlets[UE];+1 armor spikes mithral breastplate, +1 bashing shield spikes heavy steel shield, +1 bashing shield spikes heavy steel shield, maelstrom shield[UE]

Sources used:
ACG, APG, UE, Heroes of the Streets (Siegebreaker Archetype), Inner Sea Gods (Spiked Destroyer & Steady Engagement)

I added Standstill as a feat @ Level 13 (Brawler 5) because it seems like I got an extra feat there (Brawler 5 lists "Bonus Combat Feat" & you get a feat @ lvl 5). Since I had a free feat besides Pummeling Charge, i figured why not. If you have a better feat to put here besides stand still, let me know! but until then I was grabbing Steady Engagement from Martial Flexibility

Attack Candances:
Vs. No DR Shield Flurry:
-Swap out Maelstrom shield if can't trip reliably for more dmg
-Ideally only need to trip once, so further attacks should be done with basic Bashing Shield
-Try trip first to get bonus to-Hit for rest of attacks
Malestrom Shield Bash + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Swift Action Armor Spikes+SpellDischarge + Free Trip + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Shield Bash + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Shield Bash + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Shield Bash + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Shield Bash + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Average Damage w/ Haste, P.Atk, Studied Target
(1d8+16) + (8) + (1d6+16) + (Spell) + (8)
+ (2d6+16) + (8) + (8)
+ (2d6+16) + (8) + (8)
+ (2d6+16) + (8) + (8)
+ (2d6+16) + (8) + (8)
(Assuming all hits hit) = 212 avg dmg + Spell Dmg avg damage
Also see below the average damage versus varying AC levels. This doesn't include the bullrush/overrun damage, because that is versus CMD and not AC. Also doesn't include trip bonus to hit (-4 melee AC):
Average Damage VS AC (Without Combat Maneuver Damage):

Vs. DR Unarmed Flurry:
-Technically making 16 attacks per turn (when adding up all bullrush/overrun/armor spikes, etc.). So, DR would hurt this a lot.
-Using Pummeling Style with all Unarmed would help mitigate
Unarmed Strike + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Swift Action Armor Spikes+SpellDischarge + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Unarmed Strike + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Unarmed Strike + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Unarmed Strike + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Unarmed Strike + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Average Damage w/ Haste, P.Atk, Studied Target
(1d8+15) + (8) + (1d6+16) + (Spell) + (8)
+ (1d8+15) + (8) + (8)
+ (1d8+15) + (8) + (8)
+ (1d8+15) + (8) + (8)
+ (1d8+15) + (8) + (8)
(Assuming all hits hit) = 177 + (19.5 armor spikes - DR) + (Spell Dmg - DR) - DR avg damage
Also see below the average damage versus varying AC levels. This doesn't include the bullrush/overrun damage, because that is versus CMD and not AC. Also doesn't include trip bonus to hit (-4 melee AC):
Average Damage VS AC (Without Combat Maneuver Damage):

This isn't including potential increased damage/to hit from the Bard's Inspire Courage..which is always up, Sneak attack, As well as what other wonderous Items I may have bought at this point. See charts above for average damage @ various AC... helps track damage assuming misses. And I know I may or may not hit the combat maneuvers, but cant really calculate that... so at the moment, assuming they hit.

Anything else I may be missing? I plan on incorporating the other items into the build depending on Money. Also how do you like Stand Still / Steady Engagement? I thought it could be a cool thing to stop people from passing me up just in case. And that bonus feat that we didnt account for (unless we did and I missed something) let me take both Pummeling Style and Standstill, so it worked out. All this seem about right to you? If so... then yay! I understand the build lol.

Dark Archive

what do think happens once youve pushed your enemys away with bullrush and you only have 1 5ft step a round? sounds like a recipe for failure...


Name Violation wrote:
what do think happens once youve pushed your enemys away with bullrush and you only have 1 5ft step a round? sounds like a recipe for failure...

Actually good point.. I think if you are full attacking, then you can't move during the full attack... E.g. you cant do hit, move, hit, move... If you move, that ends the full attack right? Is there a way to get this functionality?


grayson773 wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
what do think happens once youve pushed your enemys away with bullrush and you only have 1 5ft step a round? sounds like a recipe for failure...
Actually good point.. I think if you are full attacking, then you can't move during the full attack... E.g. you cant do hit, move, hit, move... If you move, that ends the full attack right? Is there a way to get this functionality?

You can't normally Bull Rush opponents into walls or into other characters, but you can with Shield Slam. If you Shield-Slamming an oppoent into a wall or into your Flanking buddy, that works just fine; your victim's movement stops, and they fall Prone.


Each attack provides a free bull rush and you move with the target on each bull rush. That’s why you need the movement speed from haste. As soon as you run out of movement, the shenanigans end.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
grayson773 wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
what do think happens once youve pushed your enemys away with bullrush and you only have 1 5ft step a round? sounds like a recipe for failure...
Actually good point.. I think if you are full attacking, then you can't move during the full attack... E.g. you cant do hit, move, hit, move... If you move, that ends the full attack right? Is there a way to get this functionality?
You can't normally Bull Rush opponents into walls or into other characters, but you can with Shield Slam. If you Shield-Slamming an oppoent into a wall or into your Flanking buddy, that works just fine; your victim's movement stops, and they fall Prone.

Right, but you're still not continuing the attack right? Because if you hit into the wall, bullrush, then overrun, you can move off. Onto another square..but the follow up bullrush will push them away from the wall.

So my question is, is there anyway, during a full attack action, can you carry out multiple shield slams while continuously following them?


grayson773 wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
grayson773 wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
what do think happens once youve pushed your enemys away with bullrush and you only have 1 5ft step a round? sounds like a recipe for failure...
Actually good point.. I think if you are full attacking, then you can't move during the full attack... E.g. you cant do hit, move, hit, move... If you move, that ends the full attack right? Is there a way to get this functionality?
You can't normally Bull Rush opponents into walls or into other characters, but you can with Shield Slam. If you Shield-Slamming an oppoent into a wall or into your Flanking buddy, that works just fine; your victim's movement stops, and they fall Prone.

Right, but you're still not continuing the attack right? Because if you hit into the wall, bullrush, then overrun, you can move off. Onto another square..but the follow up bullrush will push them away from the wall.

So my question is, is there anyway, during a full attack action, can you carry out multiple shield slams while continuously following them?

Yes, you move with the target when you bull rush. It even says so in the Bull Rush rules.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Yes, you move with the target when you bull rush. It even says so in the Bull Rush rules.

Ah ok so the line on Shield Slams that says,

"You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn"... Does the first "bull rush follow" use up that available move action? Or can you continue to follow after subsequent hits because it's not technically "using" a move action...it's just following?


Bull Rush wrote:

Bull Rush

You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.

An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat. You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).

This is from the generic Bull Rush rules. You can choose move with the target or not if you desire, but in your case, you will almost always want to move with the target, otherwise your attacks end because you cannot move in the middle of a full attack action. The free Bull Rush from your unarmed strikes and shield bash allow you to keep moving with the target while you're performing your Full Attack action, and the Free Overrun from SB2 gives you the ability to enter the opponents square and exit the square on whichever side you want, and then attack+bull rush them in a new direction, and because of the SB1 ability, you cause static damage to your target each time you Bull Rush or Overrun. The only time that you might not want to move with your target while Bull Rushing would be if you were shoving them off a cliff or something :P


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Bull Rush wrote:

Bull Rush

You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.

An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat. You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).

This is from the generic Bull Rush rules. You can choose move with the target or not if you desire, but in your case, you will almost always want to move with the target, otherwise your attacks end because you cannot move in the...

Ah got it..so you just need "available movement" not so much an "available move action". So for an enemy 10 ft away, could you move 10 ft, hit them, then follow them another 10 ft? Even though while you technically dont have any move actions left that turn, you still have more movement available?


grayson773 wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Bull Rush wrote:

Bull Rush

You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.

An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat. You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).

This is from the generic Bull Rush rules. You can choose move with the target or not if you desire, but in your case, you will almost always want to move with the target, otherwise your attacks end because
...

Yep :)

Dark Archive

I don't think that's how it works...

OBJECTION PENDING

Dark Archive

Full round attack

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.


Name Violation wrote:

Full round attack

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

So that seems like a general rule that would be usurped by the more specific rule of Bull Rush's wording? Correct me if I'm wrong. Trying to get an understanding of how this works.

I guess the main confusion that I have is whether or not the movement with the Shield Slam bullrush is actually a "movement action" or if it's just like a miscellaneous movement, that you can take as long as you still have unused distance to travel.

Dark Archive

I read it as during a full round attack you only have 5ft of available movement.

If you have your 5ft of available movement you are free to take it.

You can opt to "downgrade" a full attack to just a standard attack after you've declared your 1st attack and have any normal movement available, but declaring a full round attack limits your total moment to 5 for the round, unless you have a separate ability to change that.


Name Violation wrote:

I read it as during a full round attack you only have 5ft of available movement.

If you have your 5ft of available movement you are free to take it.

You can opt to "downgrade" a full attack to just a standard attack after you've declared your 1st attack and have any normal movement available, but declaring a full round attack limits your total moment to 5 for the round, unless you have a separate ability to change that.

So looking at "Shield Slam": "You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn."

It doesn't say that moving with the target (so should you choose) actually uses a move action/5-foot step, it only says that you can only follow if and only if you have a move/5-foot step available. To my understanding, this is to prevent people from moving their full move action, then shield bashing and moving further... effectively increasing their total move speed. So it will use up available movement speed that you have, but not those actions.

Then looking at Siegebreaker's "Breaker Momentum": "At 2nd level, when a siegebreaker successfully bull rushes a foe, he can attempt an overrun combat maneuver check against that foe as a free action."
So the overrun check is a free action, which, again doesn't consume a move-action or 5-ft step, but since you are moving it will still consume your available speed for distanced traveled, same as the Shield Slam Bullrush.

So at the end, it seems like you'd be able to do:
Shield Slam -> Bull Rush + Knockback 5 ft -> Follow (5ft) -> Overrun (10ft) -> Repeat until out of movement speed (after 60ft with haste, or 4 loops).

Does this sound right?


Each attack with Shield Bash+Shield Slam or Unarmed+Giant Fist Gauntlets gives a free Bull Rush. Per the Bull Rush rules, you're allowed to move with the target if you desire. It's kosher.

If that wasn't the case, then why do things like Shield Slam, Quick Bull Rush, and Bull Rush Strike exist?

The 5ft of movement with a Full Attack Action that you're thinking of is a free 5ft step that can be taken before or after your Full Attack.

Dark Archive

grayson773 wrote:
Name Violation wrote:

I read it as during a full round attack you only have 5ft of available movement.

If you have your 5ft of available movement you are free to take it.

You can opt to "downgrade" a full attack to just a standard attack after you've declared your 1st attack and have any normal movement available, but declaring a full round attack limits your total moment to 5 for the round, unless you have a separate ability to change that.

So looking at "Shield Slam": "You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn."

It doesn't say that moving with the target (so should you choose) actually uses a move action/5-foot step, it only says that you can only follow if and only if you have a move/5-foot step available. To my understanding, this is to prevent people from moving their full move action, then shield bashing and moving further... effectively increasing their total move speed. So it will use up available movement speed that you have, but not those actions.

Then looking at Siegebreaker's "Breaker Momentum": "At 2nd level, when a siegebreaker successfully bull rushes a foe, he can attempt an overrun combat maneuver check against that foe as a free action."
So the overrun check is a free action, which, again doesn't consume a move-action or 5-ft step, but since you are moving it will still consume your available speed for distanced traveled, same as the Shield Slam Bullrush.

So at the end, it seems like you'd be able to do:
Shield Slam -> Bull Rush + Knockback 5 ft -> Follow (5ft) -> Overrun (10ft) -> Repeat until out of movement speed (after 60ft with haste, or 4 loops).

Does this sound right?

no that sounds entirely wrong. "it doesnt say it actually uses" is the worst argument ive ever heard for this. hell by that logic since it "doesnt actually use" your movement, then why stop at 60ft with haste? since youve never used ANY movement by your logic, its ALL still available

1 to 50 of 101 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Looking for Build Advice: Half-Orc Slayer Dual Shield Wielder All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.