grayson773's page

I can appreciate the use of uninterpilated RAW for the avoidance of shenanigans.

I'm Just saying keep a weather eye out for The Holy Order of the Prolific Wand's super good deals.

Lmao fair enough XD

So...

Me and wands have a history and I hold certain opinions.

See the "Cold Steel, icicle's, and a dream" thread.

Ha I read through the thread. Definitely an entertaining read/exercise! But yeah goal here is to find the best options for the question in the first post, based on cost/effectiveness/etc...following RAW without any interpretation. That's why I broke it down into level ranges in that last post above^ based on feedback in this thread.

So far I feel like this was successful as I've learned about many new options, and even was able to break down above what seem to be the "best" options for this particular use-case.

Ok so after looking at all the options.. I think it comes down to this:

(Again starting at my current level... these are the wands that I'd want to have available each turn to cast)
Levels 7 - 10:
- Mudball @ CL1 (750gp): LOS, Blind Effect, Ranged Touch
- Silent Image @ CL1 (750gp): LOS/LOE until Interacted With once
Reasoning:
- The goal here would be to use a Silent Image Interrupt all types of casting per-turn until it is discovered to be a ruse. Then switch to using Mudball to give: No affect vs AOE, 50% miss chance vs attacks, and 100% failure of Targeted Spells
- We don't have crazy amounts of excess money at this point (especially for something not general purpose like this), so the cheaper the better. Also unlike the obscuring mist, neither of these negatively affect myself or my party in anyway, and both effectively don't have a save for interrupting the current spell being casted.

Levels 11 - 13:
- Magic Missile @ CL7 (5250gp): Ranged Damage, "Always" Hits
- Mudball @ CL1 (750gp): see above
- Silent Image @ CL1 (750gp): see above
Reasoning:
- We now have a bit more money to reach into the "2nd tier" (e.g. 3750gp - 5250gp) of wand spells, but not enough to reach into the "3rd tier" (11250gp+). However the options in this tier are limited (snowball, scorching ray, fog cloud, magic missile).
- We pick Magic Missile over Snowball for 2 reasons:
1. It has a higher CL (7 vs 5), so it will, on average, create a higher roll (1d20+CL) versus an enemies' SR. The average SR is 11+CR, so even while beating it with Magic Missile 7 is questionable, it'll be harder to beat with Snowball.
2. For enemies without SR, Snowball may seem like the better choice as it gives a slightly higher Conc. Check (24+SL vs 27+SL), but at this level things like Mirror Image, Displacement, etc.. are prevalent already. Having something that hits past all of this like Magic Missile is pretty invaluable.
- Even with this in mind, we still have Mudball/Silent Image to use first, and only switch to Magic Missile once 1. Silent Image has been found out and 2. The enemy has some sort of miss chance/illusion in place.

Levels 14-20:
- Blast Barrier @ CL5 (11250gp): LOS/LOE, low chance dmg
- Tiny Hut @ CL5 (11250gp): one way 360 degree LOS
Reasoning:
- We're at the level now where we can afford to spend money for a more solid solution to the enemy caster problem. Both Blast Barrier and Tiny Hut have their benefits, since Blast Barrier can only be used on "unworked ground" we need to have another solution for when that's not the case.
- Neither care about SR, Saves, etc., Blast Barrier blocks both LOS AND LOE while Tiny Hut provides one way LOS and 360 degree blocking. Also with Tiny Hut compared to other LOS solutions (e.g. Mudball), it can affect multiple casters, and also only require 1 cast per encounter (with no need for concentration).
- On average I'd say my high-level fights last around 5-7 rounds (6 avg) so that would mean 6 casts of Mudball for LOS per round versus 1 of Tiny hut. Each Mudball cast == 15gp while each Tiny Hut == 225. While it still ends up costing more, we can also buy the wands at less charges (GM allows this) since we will be switching between Blast Barrier and Tiny Hut depending on the encounter location. I'm thinking 25 charges of each, for a total cost of 11250gp.

===========================================================================

This is what I think is the best current setup from the options in this thread.. and probably what I'll be using as I move forward. Definitely if there are other options (or if my conclusions are off-base), then let me know!

Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:

Magic missile has the added benefit of forcing multiple concentration checks, one for each missile.

Actually I need to look into this... I'm seeing elsewhere that with Magic Missile it would only be ONE concentration check.. since it's ONE attack that was done.. need to find a ruling.

Yeah seems since you're rolling concentration against damage delt, you only roll once, even if hit by multiple magic missiles, since the damage is all dealt at the same time, and it's a single attack. This would be different were you say, getting shot with 4 arrows. It's 4 different attack rolls, and 4 different damage rolls.

Magic missile has the added benefit of forcing multiple concentration checks, one for each missile.

Actually I need to look into this... I'm seeing elsewhere that with Magic Missile it would only be ONE concentration check.. since it's ONE attack that was done.. need to find a ruling.

Magic missile has the added benefit of forcing multiple concentration checks, one for each missile.

Another thing to think about! It should be pretty straightforward to calculate the chance that beat the Conc DC created by X amount of damage.. at each level, with that difficulty decreasing for each concentration check required. I'll definitely need to sit down and consider this.

Consider higher level version of a lower level spell, eg

Magic Missile at lv 7 does 4d4+4 = 10 dmg, no save, no to hit roll, Wand cost = 5250

Another option is reach spell metamagic'ed versions- eg a shocking Grasp with reach spell is 4500 gp for 3d6 no save, ranged touch...

For these we can compare to the other damage options we've seen so far!:

For all of these, Spell Resistance Applies

- Magic Missile @ CL7 (5250gp): 14 dmg avg (24+SL Conc. DC), auto-hits vs non-total conceal/cover
- Reach Shocking Grasp @ CL3 (4500gp): 10 dmg avg (20+SL Conc. DC), +3 bonus vs metal
- Snowball @ CL5 (3750gp): 17 dmg avg (27+SL Conc. DC)
- Scorching Ray @ CL3 (4500gp): 14 dmg avg (24+SL Conc. DC)
- Lightning Bolt @ CL5 (11250gp): 17 dmg avg (27+SL Conc. DC), Reflex Half, in line aoe

I will say I dont care as much about not needing to roll "To Hit" as when targeting Touch AC with a +12 (at least) attack bonus, it's going to be hard to miss. But basically for each of these, the concentration check they are going to create is 10 + dmg + 'Spell Level enemy is casting'. And we also know that a concentration check roll by the enemy is 1d20 + CL + Ability Mod.

So we can easily take the average at each level, and see if on average, the Concentration DC made by the damage is more than the enemy's average roll.

So starting at lvl 7 (my current level), an enemy's average Concentration check roll is here (CL|Avg Ability Score|MOD|Avg. Conc. Check Roll (Max)):
7 || 19 | 4 | 1d20 + 11 = 21 (31)
8 || 20 | 5 | 1d20 + 13 = 23 (33)
9 || 20 | 5 | 1d20 + 14 = 24 (34)
10 | 20 | 5 | 1d20 + 15 = 25 (35)
11 | 20 | 5 | 1d20 + 16 = 26 (36)
12 | 21 | 5 | 1d20 + 17 = 27 (37)
13 | 21 | 5 | 1d20 + 18 = 28 (38)
14 | 21 | 5 | 1d20 + 19 = 29 (39)
15 | 21 | 5 | 1d20 + 20 = 30 (40)

From this we can see that @ lvl 8 Shocking Grasp already is failing to stop the caster the majority of the time, by lvl 10/11 for Scorching Ray and Magic Missile, and lvl 14 for Snowball and Lightning Bolt (though low reflex save here). This isn't even counting the fact that the enemy caster will probably have some Ability Score boosting items at this point in level. Meaning it may make more sense to just go with one of the no-save, no damage spells mentioned above at this point

So TLDR; Since all damage spells here are affected by SR, and even rolling a 2 to-hit probably will still hit Touch AC just fine, the main thing that matters for these spells is how difficult a concentration DC they create. BUT I will say, things like magic missile ignoring stuff like Mirror Image and Displacement may make it valuable (as most casters are probably going to have these effects). I'll need to think if this aspect is valuable enough. Also, good point on metamagic wands.. ill need to think on different combinations.

grayson773 wrote:

Belafon wrote:

I love tiny hut for all the reasons mentioned (breaks LOS in only one direction).

You might also consider blast barrier. It is the same cost as tiny hut (11,250) and it creates total cover (Breaks LOS/LOE). If your familiar can identify what spell is being cast, it can know whether to put the spell adjacent to you (for non-damaging spells so you can 5' step to the side and have clear LOS to the enemy) or adjacent to the caster (if it's a damaging spell he'll probably end up blowing up the barrier on himself).

I've never heard of this spell but reading it, it seems great! My question is say my Familiar readies a wand of Blast Barrier versus a enemy caster. Is detecting what spell is being casted an Immediate Action? Like can it, all during the enemy's turn, detect the spell being casted AND decide, 1. whether to unleash the Blast Barrier, and 2. Where to place it, AND also cast the spell all in response to the enemy casting?

If YES, then that's definitely a great option for higher level when the money is available.

Now where Blast Barrier is concerned, it's just a matter of figuring out how to let both my familiar's Spellcraft AND UMD to be high enough to make this viable.. UMD was fine (since it used my Fighter's ranks in it), but I have 0 ranks in Spellcraft lol. So ill have to look into this.

Edit: But I guess anyone could do the spellcraft and shout out what spell is being casted right? It doesn't have to be my familiar doing the check?

Nevermind on this. I see taking Sage archetype on Familiar... + Pragmatic Activator (through additional traits feat), I can get decent UMD and Spellcraft.. so that works.

Belafon wrote:

I love tiny hut for all the reasons mentioned (breaks LOS in only one direction).

You might also consider blast barrier. It is the same cost as tiny hut (11,250) and it creates total cover (Breaks LOS/LOE). If your familiar can identify what spell is being cast, it can know whether to put the spell adjacent to you (for non-damaging spells so you can 5' step to the side and have clear LOS to the enemy) or adjacent to the caster (if it's a damaging spell he'll probably end up blowing up the barrier on himself).

I've never heard of this spell but reading it, it seems great! My question is say my Familiar readies a wand of Blast Barrier versus a enemy caster. Is detecting what spell is being casted an Immediate Action? Like can it, all during the enemy's turn, detect the spell being casted AND decide, 1. whether to unleash the Blast Barrier, and 2. Where to place it, AND also cast the spell all in response to the enemy casting?

If YES, then that's definitely a great option for higher level when the money is available.

Now where Blast Barrier is concerned, it's just a matter of figuring out how to let both my familiar's Spellcraft AND UMD to be high enough to make this viable.. UMD was fine (since it used my Fighter's ranks in it), but I have 0 ranks in Spellcraft lol. So ill have to look into this.

Edit: But I guess anyone could do the spellcraft and shout out what spell is being casted right? It doesn't have to be my familiar doing the check?

grayson773 wrote:

My question is say my Familiar readies a wand of Blast Barrier versus a enemy caster. Is detecting what spell is being casted an Immediate Action? Like can it, all during the enemy's turn, detect the spell being casted AND decide, 1. whether to unleash the Blast Barrier, and 2. Where to place it, AND also cast the spell all in response to the enemy casting?

Your familiar would use Spellcraft to identify the spell, and it doesn't take an action.

CRB page 106 wrote:

Action: Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors.

Deciding to use a readied blast barrier is optional.

CRB page 203 wrote:

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.

"May" is the key word.

The familiar would make the decision on where to place it as it casts.

CRB page 213 wrote:

You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

Awesome. Then this is definitely added to the list as an option. Making that spellcraft check shouldnt be difficult either as GM only uses 15+SL, and doesn't add any perception checks to it unless something really crazy is going on.

One callout on mudball: make sure your GM is going to allow you to use it. It's from the goblin section of the Advanced Race Guide, and the ARG specifically says about racial spells: "members of other races can learn to cast them with GM permission."

Having said that, you are right and it is definitely the best low-cost caster-stopper. There's a reason PFS did NOT allow non-goblins to learn it.

Yeah I talked to GM and it's fine assuming it's being casted with UMD. Which is how my familiar will be casting it. But yeah, low-levels, mudball is looking quite good for reasons mentioned above... maybe as a backup wand when the Silent Image trick has been figured out by the enemy.

I love tiny hut for all the reasons mentioned (breaks LOS in only one direction).

You might also consider blast barrier. It is the same cost as tiny hut (11,250) and it creates total cover (Breaks LOS/LOE). If your familiar can identify what spell is being cast, it can know whether to put the spell adjacent to you (for non-damaging spells so you can 5' step to the side and have clear LOS to the enemy) or adjacent to the caster (if it's a damaging spell he'll probably end up blowing up the barrier on himself).

I've never heard of this spell but reading it, it seems great! My question is say my Familiar readies a wand of Blast Barrier versus a enemy caster. Is detecting what spell is being casted an Immediate Action? Like can it, all during the enemy's turn, detect the spell being casted AND decide, 1. whether to unleash the Blast Barrier, and 2. Where to place it, AND also cast the spell all in response to the enemy casting?

If YES, then that's definitely a great option for higher level when the money is available.

One that I don't see mentioned is acid arrow. It's not the strongest, but the DOT aspect of it is something to consider.

I definitely thought about Acid Arrow but I felt that, while it was an option, it just didn't stack up to the other options. like:

CL 3 Acid Arrow (4500 gp): 5 avg dmg per turn, for 2 turns
CL 6 Acid Arrow (9000 gp): 5 avg dmg per turn, for 3 turns
CL 9 Acid Arrow (13500 gp): 5 avg dmg per turn, for 4 turns

It just felt like the damage wasn't nearly enough to give a difficult concentration check, and the cost was also much more than would be worth for the effect it gave.. especially when CL5 Snowball exists for 3750 gp dealing avg 17 dmg per cast. No SR is pretty good, but the dmg just isn't enough IMO.

VoodistMonk wrote:

That is an unfortunate way to play.

I happily ignore every FAQ/Errata that subtracts from something's effectiveness or fun... obviously not every table plays the same.

I will see if I can find something else for you.

There's taking it the other way : players were abusing it hence the errata. Given similar spells around these levels, it works now as intended. Sometimes it's on the players to adapt.

grayson773 wrote:

This seems to show again that the easiest way to handle this problem is when a save isn't allowed T_T

These effects are often of weaker effect than those allowing one so it's not exactly a go-to move. In any case for the wands to have a decent effect, the player has to raise the caster level because taking the lowest is unlikely tu cut it. The problem is it's more expensive.

That's the thing though. Creating a wand at a higher CL DOES NOT increase the Spell DC. Wand Spell DC = 10 + Spell Level + min Ability score required... and min ability score is based on 10+Spell Level. E.g. even if you have a 20 int wand of grease, it will always have a DC of 11.

So the highest DC you're gonna get out of a wand is 10 + 4 + 2 = 16. That's why it seems like the best options for my usecase are those without a save.

How about the spells Sleet Storm, Ash Storm, and Conjure Carriage which can be used as hard cover and breaks LOE and LOS. no saves

Meanwhile back in save or suck land

Agonizing Rebuke (will)
Bestow Curse (will)
Irregular Size (fort)
Howling Agony (fort)

are all excellent choices.

Thanks for the options! Going through them..:

- Sleet/Ash Storm (11250 gp): Both handle LOS pretty readily, and also apply additional effects (half movespeed and difficult terrain, respectively). Though with that being the only affect, they are basically worse versions of a Fog Cloud wand (4500gp). It's much cheaper, also fully prevents LOS, and doesnt mess with the terrain in a way that could affect the party negatively. And same with the fog spell, not being able to see messes my archery up as well.
- Conjure Carriage (11250 gp): Also a lot of gold, but definitely would block LOS and LOE as you mentioned, so that's good! Could also use for other purposes. I'd say this falls into the same area as a Tiny Hut wand, except that Tiny Hut probably holds more people. MAYBE the carriage could provide mobile cover, but it says it fails checks to move in "Dangerous Conditions".. which battle probably qualifies as. Probably would go with Tiny Hut over this for those reasons, and that it blocks in all directions. Scratch that... I forgot that Tiny Hut doesnt stop LOE. This Carriage then may be the only option to stop LOE that I currently see besides first turn Silent Image.. at least in a single direction.

- Agonizing Rebuke (Will DC 14 | 11250 gp), Bestow Curse (Will DC 16 | 21000 gp), Irregular Size (Fort DC 16 | 21000 gp), and Howling Agony (Fort DC 14 | 11250 gp) all have the same issue as other save or suck on wands. Relatively low save DC for the level that their cost will make sense at.

Even if cost wasn't a problem, the highest DC you're seeing is 16. Which may go a bit farther versus casters for Fort, but even then is pretty low when considering average bestiary save stats (all saves would be at an average of at least 16 when added to a d20 roll by lvl 7). If spending that much money, it would make more sense to have a wand that for sure would shut them down (like you put with Conjure Carriage).

This seems to show again that the easiest way to handle this problem is when a save isn't allowed T_T

Tiny hut works on everything rather than one target, and for the entire encounter (unless something runs up to melee with you, and it still works vs. ranged/spells in that case) rather than possibly just a round. And you have a nice tent/igloo-equivalent. At that cost it's probably not viable at level 7 though.

Yeah it's give and take it feels like:

Tiny hut isn't solid, it doesn't break LOE. Just LOS.

Dang then yeah at that point I might as well just have a wand of mudball. It would have to hit a ranged touch attack. But that's already a 1d20+12 for my Wasp Familiar at lvl 7, which should be well in the clear to hit Touch AC, even if a 2 is rolled. Also like you said, that cost is steep compared to the 750gp for Mudball to block LOS.

Not exactly anti-spellcaster (other than disarming rods, I suppose): Burning Disarm. Its notable because successfully saving means you drop the metal item, which is generally more of a disadvantage then taking a little bit of damage.

Burst of Radiance can be ok for the 'damage interruption' aspect, as the save isn't on the damage only the blindness. Since it only damages evil creatures it can be safer for the party. Though they still have to save vs blind.
Boneshaker has decent damage for low caster level (4d6 at CL3) and can move the target 5'... without the normal caveats that you can't be moved into hostile terrain.
Shackle is notable as SR: No. My search-fu is a little weak and I am not seeing anything about spell failure but I imagine having your hands shackled behind your back is detrimental to casting spells with somatic components.
Drunkards Breath can nauseate, but fort negates.

I'll definitely keep Burning Disarm in mind for my rod-wielding enemy casters! Another spell I hadn't thought of. Though Ideally want to be a bit more general. As for the others:

If you happen to be size small then expeditious construction can break line of effect for you. Save, what save? SR, what SR?

A wand of vanish isn't a good investment if you yourself would use it, but it should be fine for a familiar to use. It wouldn't protect the familiar at the same time tho'. If you scale up to a wand of invisibility then the familiar could turn invisible then do the same for you as required.

It's getting expensive but a tiny hut spell is perfect for breaking LOS in one direction only.

I think concentration lasts until the caster's next action BTW.

Unfortunately im not small ;[.. Though, I didnt even think of things like vanish (750gp) / invisibility (4500gp). I could definitely see these for protecting myself, but Ideally I want to help my party as well! And I'm not sure if I can detect whom the spellcaster is casting at when i fire off my readied spell to make that person invisible (i doubt i can). And Tiny Hut (11250gp) I've never seen before! Would this block both Line of Sight AND Line of Effect? If so then it makes it a decent option for "blocking" ALL spells like Silent Image is for it's first cast... I'm not sure because it mentions spell effects past through.

And dang... if concentration lasts until the caster's next action then silent image at worst will only work for 1 round...They may not touch the wall so they may not find out.. but if they do, it'll probably not be effective after that. So maybe Silent Image until they figure it out (they'll have to spend one of their/their allies' action to discover it to be fake), and then something else after that.

Look into the witch spell list

Adhesive Spittle
Forced Quiet
Itching Curse
Lock Gaze
Shadow Trap
Web Bolt

should all be good choices

So comparing to the options I have so far, this is what I got:

Basically it feels like it has to be something either without a save, or with a save that can only occur at a time separate from when they are hit by the spell.

That is an unfortunate way to play.

I happily ignore every FAQ/Errata that subtracts from something's effectiveness or fun... obviously not every table plays the same.

I will see if I can find something else for you.

Sounds good! Yeah listed above are just some potential options I thought of. If there are other options that better fit my particular usecase.. I'm definitely open to them

Get the Conjuration/Creation version of Snowball... no spell resistance, no save for the damage, and a Fort save vs Staggered.

Unfortunately we play with "errata included".. so no Stagger and SR added.. since it was wiped out in Ultimate Wilderness

So Background:
I'm a level 7 Fighter (archery focused). I plan on taking Wasp Familiar soon. Besides the general aura benefits from Wasp Familiar, I'd like to use it to cast some wands for me. I'm not as worried at the moment for what archetypes to take, how to get my familiars UMD higher, etc.. right now my main question is as the title states:

What are good spell(s) (ideally 1) to put on a wand for the express purpose of interrupting an enemy caster, with a focus on effectiveness, cost efficiency, and not hindering my own party

Here's what I have so far:
Damage (Cancels spell by forcing difficult Concentration Check):
- Lightning Bolt (11250 gp) | Average Concentration DC = 27 + Spell Level being casted | AOE Dmg in Line | SR Applies (avg 15 CL roll)
- Scorching Ray (4500 gp) | Average Concentration DC = 24 + Spell Level being casted | Single Target | SR Applies (avg 13 CL roll)
- Snowball (3750 gp) | Average Concentration DC = 27 + Spell Level being casted | Single Target | SR Applies (avg 15 CL roll)

Line of Sight (Cancels Targeted Spells, 50% miss chance for attack spells (rays), Does nothing to AOE Spells):
- Fog Cloud (4500 gp) | 20 ft radius w/ medium range | 10min/lvl | Could Affect Myself (Archer)
- Obscuring Mist (750 gp) | 20 ft radius on self | 1min/lvl | Could Affect Myself (Archer)
- Mudball (750 gp) | Ranged Touch Immediate Blind effectively until enemies' turn (no save before then) | Only Affects Target

Line of Effect/Sight (Cancels all spells (attacks, targeted, and AOE)):
- Silent Image (750 gp) | Creation of Wall/Dome 10ft high, 40ft wide | No Save without interaction (throwing rock, touching wall, etc.)

So with all the above in mind, which is best?
- It seems to be that the cloud affects aren't very useful as they affect myself and my party too.. this could come back to bite us.
- Then the Mudball spell may be useful, but only partially .. e.g. it would Cancel Targeted spells, 50% miss chance for attacks, and not affect AOE spells.
- Silent image seems like it would be the most useful, as there is no immediate save, and since it happened while they were casting the spell, they can either: A. try to cast it on the wall/another target that's in line of sight/line of effect, or B. Let the spell Fizzle. But I believe the usefulness of this depends on whether or not my familiar can stop concentrating IMMEDIATELY after the enemy's spell fizzles (is this legal?). If not, they will just touch/throw a rock, detect it's fake, then it wont work again. Also loses usefulness when True Seeing becomes a thing.

And then Damage spells are the default, but they have the problem of:
1. Concentration DC not scaling as levels increase (By lvl 12 the average Concentration Check Roll is 27, already at parity with the Average Concentration DC for snowball)
2. Spell Resistance is generally 11+CR, and if we pull directly from Bestiary, the Average SR is already 16.5 by CR 5 (which I'm already lvl 7). Meaning already on average the damage wands will just flat out fail by that lvl.

Which do you think would be the most useful for my purposes? And if not any of the ones I listed, what other options (within this same usecase)?

grayson773 wrote:

Ah the one question that I thought of.. was to ask:

Where do you see the rules for Overrun that mention being able to exit into any square after entering opponent's square? I see that normally with an charge+overrun you'd exit the opponents square in a straight line. Where do you see that it lets you exit in a non-straight line?

The Overrun rules don't say you have to enter an exit in a straight line, it just says you move through the target's square.

When you do an Overrun, you can do it in one of two ways: a charge, or a move action.

If you're doing an overrun during a charge, you most definitely have to enter and exit the target's square in a straight line, otherwise you're violating the rules of a charge. Mechanically speaking, you're attempting to charge a Target A, but Target B is blocking your path, so you initiate the charge upon Target A, and when you get to Target B's square, you perform the Overrun maneuver, and if you're successful, you complete the charge to Target A.

If you're doing an overrun during a move action, you can move any direction that would normally be allowed during a move action. Mechanically speaking, you start your Move Action, and then move wherever you want, and when you get to Target A's space, you enter their space and perform the Overrun Maneuver as a standard action, and then finish your Move Action to move out of the target's space. It doesn't say this movement must be done in a straight line. So the reason you're able to exit the square wherever you want is because you're performing a Move Action, and you can Move wherever you want as long as that square is not occupied.

Ah just saw your response. Thank you! This helps explain a lot

O.K. So GM Approved Celestial Plate Armor rules-wise, assuming I can make the required Diplomacy check to find it. So we ended up with this:

Character:
Human Fighter Archer (not the archetype)

Dex Assumed:
BaseDex + Race + lvlUp + Inherent + Enchantment = TotalDex
16 + 2 + 5 + 5 + 6 = 34 Dex (+12 MOD)
(Ideally want to work up to 34 Dex, but probably won't be there till lvls 16+)

Feats Assumed:
- Advanced Armor Training: Armor Specialization (AAT:AS) (+3/4/5 AC for light/medium/heavy armor)
----- Taken as Feat instead of Class Feature to keep full ArmorTraining Max Dex bonus

BaseArmorAC + AAT:AS AC + EnchantAC + MIN(ArmorMaxDex + ArmorTrainingDex, DEX MOD) = Bonus AC
>Celestial Armor: 9 + 4 + 0 + MIN(8 + 4, 12) = +25 AC
>Celestial Plate Armor: 12 + 5 + 0 + MIN(6 + 4, 12) = +27 AC
>+5 Mithral Tatami-do: 7 + 5 + 5 + MIN(5 + 4, 12) = +26 AC

1) Celestial Armor:
- AC/Touch/Flat: +25/12/13 AC
- 22,400 gp
- 20 lbs
- Fly 1/day
2) Celestial Plate Armor:
- AC/Touch/Flat: +27/10/17
- 28,650 gp
- 25 lbs
- Fly 1/day
3) +5 Mithral Tatami-do:
- AC/Touch/Flat: +26/9/17
- 35,000 gp
- 22.5 lbs
- Can be enchanted with "Special Abilities"

With Celestial Plate Armor (Option 2) added in, I think that really comes out to be the best option. I'm not sure how to value the "Fly 1/day", but I believe the lower cost, higher AC, and ability to Fly 1/day comes out better than the ability to enchant the armor with special abilities (Option 3). Even if some of those special abilities are really good. Unless I'm missing something (let me know), I think Option 2 is the best possible armor for my Archer.

Ah the one question that I thought of.. was to ask:

Where do you see the rules for Overrun that mention being able to exit into any square after entering opponent's square? I see that normally with an charge+overrun you'd exit the opponents square in a straight line. Where do you see that it lets you exit in a non-straight line?

So, there's no possible refutation that exists that you cannot do everything in this build while performing a Pummeling Charge. And the camps are divided 50/50 on whether you can do all this with a Full Attack Action. You and your GM decide on what to do.

Got so pummeling charge can do.. full attack 50/50.. but GM seems to be in the camp of "available movement speed".. so that's good.

You're going to be wanting to use Pummeling Charge to Double your Available Movement anyway, so just get 10'+ away from your target and charge, and with your final attack in the round, Bull Rush the target 5'+ and do not follow him, then in the following round you start 10'+ away and you can charge him again. Or if you do end up 5' from your target in that following round, you can Pummeling Charge a different target and take an Attack of Opportunity

This makes total sense. No complaints here

Anywho, any more questions about your build?

I like the idea with adding greater trip into this cycle. I'm probably going to end up doing this. With the rules question sorted out as far as my GM is concerned, I think you've answered my questions! If I think of one I'll definitely come back to you (can you PM on here?), but otherwise Thank you!

With brakes flurry you only need 1 shield to make all your attacks

Check out the trait shield bearer. It might help

Edit: for some reason i thought you took brawler levels

Yeah I saw that and that would be good. I don't have any brawler levels yet, but the suggestion from @ryze was to add some.

I'm trying to figure out if there is another potential build that I could follow JUST IN CASE my GM decides to go back against allowing the build that ryze suggested above. I can still see having Spike defender for the Swift action armor spikes, but I'm thinking about now another potential build where I just go for an alternative to spamming bull-rush and overrun. What's another option? Something that abuses vital strike or the dual strike weapon trick?

Btw, I started a thread about this in the Rules Forum Bull Rush Rules Discussion.

Let’s continue the rules discussion there, and let this thread continue for Grayson as an Advice discussion.

Thanks! Still looking for any and all build suggestions, but at the moment, my DM sseems to be on the side of the "movement" to follow-bullrush being available movement distance/speed. Which makes this build viable AFAIK. If there are other interesting Dual Shield builds that I could go into from the base i posted earlier, that would be great. Starting from:

CN Atheist Half-orc slayer 6
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Initiative: +2
Melee Options:
>TWF:
>>+1 heavy shield bash +12/+7 (2d6+5) & +1 heavy shield bash +12 (2d6+3) [3 atks total]
>>(P.Atk&StdTarget) +1 heavy shield bash +12/+7 (2d6+11) & +1 heavy shield bash +12 (2d6+7) [3 atks total]
>2H:
>>+1 heavy shield bash +12/+7 (2d6+7) [2 atks total]
>>(P.Atk&StdTarget) +1 heavy shield bash +12/+7 (2d6+15) [2 atks total]
Speed:
>30 ft
Special Attacks:
>sneak attack +2d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
>Str 18, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 7
>Base Atk +6; CMB +10; CMD 22
>Feats:
>>Combat Reflexes, Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Shield Master, Shield Slam, Weapon Focus (shield, heavy), Improved Bullrush
>Traits:
>>armor expert, indomitable faith
--------------------
Important Gear
--------------------
- Cloak of Greater Invisibility (3 times use daily)
- +1 mithral breastplate
- +1 bashing shield spikes heavy steel shield
- +1 bashing shield spikes heavy steel shield

Just let me drop this here and see if it helps OP make up his mind.

Mind Buttressing

Lol that makes the choice harder! That's a really cool enchant that I wasn't aware of. Option 1 (Celestial Armor) can't be enchanted as per my DM and herolab, but putting this on Option 2 (+5 Mithril Tatami-do) puts its cost up to 59,000 gp around (36,600 gp over Celestial Armor). So I'm still not sure what's worth more..but having the option to enchant as opposed to no option at all is pretty good.

Ok so finally...

Dex Assumed:
BaseDex + Race + lvlUp + Inherent + Enchantment = TotalDex
16 + 2 + 5 + 5 + 6 = 34 Dex (+12 MOD)
(Ideally want to work up to 34 Dex, but probably won't be there till lvls 16+)

Feats Assumed:
- Advanced Armor Training: Armor Specialization (AAT:AS) (+3/4/5 AC for light/medium/heavy armor)
----- Taken as Feat instead of Class Feature to keep full ArmorTraining Max Dex bonus

BaseArmorAC + AAT:AS AC + EnchantAC + MIN(ArmorMaxDex + ArmorTrainingDex + SISMaxDex, DEX MOD) = Bonus AC
Celestial Armor: 9 + 4 + 0 + MIN(8 + 4, 12) = +25 AC
+5 Mithral Tatami-do: 7 + 5 + 5 + MIN(5 + 4, 12) = +26 AC

1) Celestial Armor:
- AC/Touch/Flat: +25/12/13 AC
- 22,400 gp
- 20 lbs
- Fly 1/day
2) +5 Mithral Tatami-do:
- AC/Touch/Flat: +26/9/17
- 35,000 gp
- 22.5 lbs
- Can be enchanted with "Special Abilities"

So which assuming Celestial Plate Armor isn't a thing I can use (GM said no already), what's better... Option #1 or Option #2? It seems to be the only benefits of the Mithral Tatami-do are that it has 1 more AC, and can be chanted past +5 with Special Abilities. I could take feats like Swift Iron Style to boost its MaxDex, but then that raises it's "cost" by a feat. On the other hand, Celestial Armor gives Fly 1/day, costs 12,600 less, and has a balanced touch/flat AC bonus.

Anything I'm missing? Again, not exactly trying to min-max AC, but just get the best AC possible while still not wasting crazy resources into it. Am I correct to think that Celestial Armor with the above setup is my best bet for end-game Armor with the above assumptions?

Thanks guys

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Celestial Plate Armor is from Curse of the Crimson Throne. It shows up in HeroLabs listing that as the source. That may be a very early adventure path, but it is still Pathfinder, not 3.5. Paizo republished it in hardcover so that is definitely not 3.5.

Actually, you're wrong on both counts. The original AP was written for 3.5. Paizo did release the entire AP as a hardcover book for Pathfinder in 2016, but in that version, they changed the armor to be found at one point from "celestial plate armor" to "celestial armor", with the sidebar containing its stats being gone.

So they effectively removed it and replaced it with Celestial Armor? Was it a balancing thing?

Celestial Plate Armor is from Curse of the Crimson Throne. It shows up in HeroLabs listing that as the source. That may be a very early adventure path, but it is still Pathfinder, not 3.5. Paizo republished it in hardcover so that is definitely not 3.5.

Like I said, that's what he told me... so I can appeal to him, but knowing him... I doubt he will budge once he's made a decision. In case he doesn't, then I want to evaluate.what are the best possible options I have..which seems between options 1 and 3 above. Unless anyone knows of something better (again, besides Celestial Plate Armor until GM decides on it)?

Which armor is best is going to change based on your level, and how much you want to spend on AC. Right now a mithral breastplate is probably your best choice, and will probably remain so for a while. When you get to higher level consider going for celestial plate armor instead of celestial armor. While the max DEX bonus is two lower the AC is 3 higher. That means the max AC is actually higher even if have a higher. At that level the extra 6,200 gold is nothing.

Right that's why i posted the spreadsheet per/lvl numbers in the first post, to try and visualize that a bit. As I mentioned I do currently have a +1 Mithril Breastplate, and as you mentioned, ill probably stick with that armor for awhile. I'd like to look into the Celestial Plate Armor (CPA) (as I think that would do well with AAT:AS as I mentioned in the post above yours), but since it's 3.5E, my GM said I'm not able to use it.

Pick up Swift Iron Style from the armor master’s handbook for an addition for an extra point of DEX that stacks with armor training.

This is a useful feat that I wasn't aware of. But, same as I mentioned above in regards to picking up AAT:AS as a feat, "so not sure if a feat is worth 1 AC". It may, but ill need to think on my higher level feats. I'll also need to pick an armor that can take advantage of the additional DEX... so assuming no CPA due to GM, and 34 Dex (+12 MOD), basic Celestial Armor is exactly at that bonus. So adding 1 from this feat to max dex won't help in that case (assuming I'm still using Manual +5 to reach +12 DEX MOD). But for Options 2 and 3 I listed in the post above yours, this feat would definitely allow the +1 to AC from the higher max_dex.

Don’t bother with the +5 Tome as it is way too expensive. It costs about 16% of a 20th level character’s WBL. The most I would go is a +3, unless of course you find one as treasure.

Ideally my goal is to be efficient. So while I may not get the +5 Tome (was just tracking the max_item dex possible as it helped with doing some calcs), I want to avoid buying the "wrong" armor (e.g. that doesn't take full advantage of my stats) and then needing to sell it at half price just to upgrade. So even with +3 Tome, it seems that the best would be Option 3 listed in the post above yours. Not just because of the reasons I gave, but also because I can apply the "Swift Iron Style (SIS)" feat you mentioned, to gain more AC, but I can't do that with the Celestial Armor (due to Max-Dex already being high enough). So the options to compare would now be:

If I grabbed the "Swift Iron Style (SIS)" Feat and had Manual +3 instead of +5, that would seem to make Celestial Armor less worth it (since it cant take advantage of it's total MaxDex of +12 from Armor Training), and the Mithral Tatami-do to pull ahead. And with this, the extra $$$ the Tatami-do costs (12,600) would come out of the extra money that's not being spent to go from +3 to +5 Tome. Though I wonder how much value there is to being able to Fly 1/day. Right now I'm leaning toward the Option #3 (Mithral Tatami-do) Any thoughts?

Are you aware that Fighters can trade in their Armour Training upgrades for Advanced Armour training?

"Armor Specialization (Ex): The fighter selects one specific type of armor with which he is proficient, such as chain shirts or scale mail. While wearing the selected type of armor, the fighter adds one-quarter of his fighter level to the armor’s armor bonus, up to a maximum bonus of +3 for light armor, +4 for medium armor, or +5 for heavy armor. ..."

So I have looked into this, and it might be the best way to go. Though that would only benefit things that are treated as armor, so it wouldn't boost Bracers of Armor. Though it may be good. Taking Armor Specialization once means I still get Armor Training +3. And checking with HeroLab, even for armor that is "treated" as lower type (light/medium/heavy), you still get the Armor Specialization bonus for the Armor's original type. And if I take Advanced Armor Training as a feat, then I get the full base Armor Training Bonus (+4 to MaxDex) (again, assuming max of +12 DEX Bonus @34 DEX):

Without Advanced Armor Training:
Armor Training Celestial Armor (22,400gp): +9 AC +12 Dex = 21 AC
Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000 gp): +8 AC +12 Dex = 20 AC
+5 Haramaki (25,153gp): +6 AC +12 Dex = 18 AC

With Advanced Armor Training Armor Specialization (AAT:AS) as a Feat:
BaseArmorAC + AAT:AS AC + Enchant AC + MaxDex + ArmorTrainingDex = Bonus AC
AAT:AS Celestial Armor(22,400gp): 9 + 4 + 0 + 8 + 4 = +25 AC
AAT:AS +5 Haramaki(25,153gp): 1 + 3 + 5 + 12 = 21 AC
AAT:AS +5 Mithral Tatami-do(35,000gp): 7 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 4 = +26 AC
AAT:AS +5 Mithral Full plate(35,500gp): 9 + 5 + 5 + 3 + 4 = +26 AC

If I instead took Advanced Armor Training as a class feature instead of a feat, would just need to decrease the above AC's by 1... so not sure if a feat is worth 1 AC, probably not.

So, assuming this all makes sense, I have 3 options:
1) AAT:AS Celestial Armor:
- AC/Touch/Flat: +25/12/13 AC
- 22,400 gp
- 20 lbs
- Fly 1/day
2) AAT:AS +5 Mithral Full plate:
- AC/Touch/Flat: +26/7/19
- 35,500 gp
- 25 lbs
- Can be enchanted with "Special Abilities"
3) AAT:AS +5 Mithral Tatami-do:
- AC/Touch/Flat: +26/9/17
- 35,000 gp
- 22.5 lbs
- Can be enchanted with "Special Abilities"

So assuming these 3 options above are probably the best options (correct me if I'm wrong), what's best? I believe Touch AC is probably more important that Flat AC at higher levels, so I figure Option 3 > Option 2 (higher Touch, less gold, less weight). However, when comparing Option 1 and Option 3, what's better? Balanced Flat/Touch AC, 13,100 gp less, and Fly 1/day... OR Higher Flat but Lower Touch, 13,100 gp more, but can still be changed with +5 of "Special Abilities"? Thoughts?

Just out of curiosity though, why doesn't your DM let you enchant the Celestial Armor? Can you enchant other specific magic items?

No, he doesn't allow enchantment of ANY specific magic items. He said this because specific magic items already have weird pricing structure (i.e. cheaper than a permenancied item that has the same effect), so he doesn't want to bother with it. Also because HeroLab doesn't explicitly allow it, and that's what he uses to manager the campaign.

I see your character already has a Mithral Breasplate, and you are already thinking about Celestial Armor, so I don't think you are missing anything.

Sounds good! I'll have to look into armored Kilt, but like you said it's probably not the way to go. Though, ill ask GM about it.

Your dex bonus at Dex = 34 is +12. You have alternatives.

That's the thing right though? Since it's a Fighter Archer, I have armor training. Which, by the time my Dex is +12, I'll have the max Dex on Celestial Armor be +12 instead of +8 (due to Armor Training 4). So actually @34 Dex, Celestial Armor will be: 6AC + 3AC + 12AC (from dex) for a total of 21. That seems to be it above both the haramaki and bracers of armor. Though I believe the benefit of these would be that they can be enchanted with special abilities, while the Celestial Armor cannot.

Celestial armor (+9 total armor bonus, +8 max. Dex) is probably a good option from total Dex 24 to 27. Once your Dex hits 28+, you should look at bracers of armor +8 (+8 armor bonus, no max. Dex).

Same question that I'm asking to the guy above. Since Fighter's have Armor Training like mentioned in the post, woudln't Celestial Armor be better than Bracer's of armor assuming my max possible dex is 34 (+12 mod)? I attached some spreadsheets in the first post detailing this.. but see the last table here (Best Armor Calculations). You'll see that the red boxes are where my AC is being limited due to Max Dex not being high enough...which only happens with Celestial Armor for levels 4-6 (due to not having Armor Training 2 yet, even when getting the max possible stacking permanent DEX from items (+11 Dex) as described in #3 in the OP post.

So it seems like Celestial Armor is probably the best bet due to Armor training allowing it to be effectively 9 Armor AC + 12 Max_dex = 21 Total AC..at least from the answers I see here? That is of course not counting the fact that I cant put special enchantments on Celestial Armor, but I can on things like Bracer's of Armor... so that may be a point against it. Anything else I'm missing here?

Hi all. I'm trying to figure out what armor to buy/target for my lvl 6 Human Fighter Archer while staying aware of the max-dex penalty. A couple of notes:

1. Current Stats:
lvl: 6 Human Vanilla Fighter Archer (not archetype)
Str: 14
Dex: 19/21 (Belt of Dex +2)
Con: 13
Int: 7
Wis: 14
Cha: 7

2. Relevant Current Equipment:
- +1 Mithril Breastplate
- Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2

3. As far as I know, the main reliable permanent ability score boosts I can get (that will stack) at this point (excluding things like permanency reduce person) are:
- +4 more dex from leveling up
- +4 more dex from upgrading belt of dex
- +5 from buying Manuals of Quickness
Total=Current_dex(21) + 13 = 34 dex
Let me know if I'm missing any points here.

I've put together a quick spreadsheet, and it seems that Celestial Armor is coming out on top as the best. Since my max feasible DEX is 34 (not including temporary spell boosts), it seems like Celestial Armor (bottom right table) only struggles to have a high enough max-DEX from Fighter levels 4-6, before Armor Training 2 kicks in. Mithril breastplate starts to be limited when the DEX bonus from items is 6 or higher. Once DEX from items is > 7, then the AC gained from DEX is limited. Even when enchanting a MBP, at +5 (or upgrading from my +1) it's still more expensive than Celestial Armor, while having the same, or less (If > 10 Dex from Items) AC.

Is there anything I'm missing, or should I go ahead and focus on celestial armor as my target armor for this character? Also do note that I CAN'T enchant the celestial armor, as per-DM rules. So, that might be a point against it, if there's a good spell to put on some other armor.

Alright so looking around, I've found are 8 post citing you can't move and attack (citing the ft step rule), and around 7 posts citing that you can (citing bull rush strike and specific > general). So for now my GM is leaving it up to a party vote. So we'll see what happens. Probably will make a separate post for this at some point..as this was a good discussion for me to learn from.

As for the general/ specific rules...

Generally you can only bullrush as a standard or as part of a charge. In those situations you might have remaining movement to utilize.

When you start adding it to full round attacks it brings up interactions that can be interpreted differently.

There's also the issue of words like movement that have specific game meanings, and general language usage. And confusion around terms like speed and movement.

hm I wish there was an FAQ for something like this, because at the moment...it seems to be an issue of semantics. If we're going with agree to disagree (at least until I try and make a post asking about this rule specifically), then there's one thing I dont understand. It's how overrun works when you're not doing a charge.

Normally with a charge, it's a straight line..but you can also overrun while simply moving, or after a shield bash bull rush (with Siegebreaker's Breaker Momentum @ lvl 2). @Ryze Kuja mentioned that I could enter the opponents square, get my overrun damage, then exit into any other adjacent square, and that it didn't have to be a straight line. However, I couldn't find the ruling on how overrun works when part of a movement. Would you (or anyone) have any idea on it? i.e. When doing an overrun as part of a shied bash bullrush, what square can I go to after exiting my opponent's square?

None of the things you've brought up change the fact that no ability lets you take more than a 5 ft step. If you dont have a move action you don't have movement.

But since you are never going to see things another way, there's no point arguing in circles with you.

I suggest making another thread and asking there since that might get people actually chiming in.

What I dont understand is how this isn't a case of specific trumping general. Same as pounce working during a surprise round because of the interaction with treating charge as a standard. I feel like normally the case is true that at most you can take a 5-ft step during a FAA, but that's a general case.

If that's not right, then I want to get an idea of how to achieve something similar to this build, if not slightly different, but within the way the rules are being defined here. Currently my GM seems to care more about how this thread turns out argument-wise lol.

When you charge you have movement equal to twice your speed. If you bull rush during that you can continue moving.

If you use a move action to move 30, then make a bullrush, do you believe you have 30 more feet of available movement to bull rush?

Dont you still have movement available? Say you run the 30ft, and push them back 30ft, can't you follow for 30ft since you have another 30 ft available of movement?

Then for say, the siegebreaker's "Breaker Momemtum":
when a siegebreaker successfully bull rushes a foe, he can attempt an overrun combat maneuver check against that foe as a free action.

Does this mean you can charge 30ft, bull rush and push the enemy 30ft, follow the 30 ft (so moved a total of 60ft so far), and then overrun, which would require moving another 10ft (onto the opponent's square and then off again)? Or are you limited to 60ft because that's your total movement available per round, and unable to do the free action overrun from siegebreaker?

also, no matter your SPEED, you dont have the MOVEMENT available, the only available MOVEMENT is 5ft step

Speed=/=movement

Wait so that's what's confusing me. Shield Slam definitely says "You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn." This is specific to the shield slam cadance of bullrush after hitting with one's shield. So while the general rule is that you can only take 5ft step before, during, or after full attack action, isn't this a case of Specific trumps General, Since it says that you can choose to follow if you land the bullrush?

I read it as during a full round attack you only have 5ft of available movement.

If you have your 5ft of available movement you are free to take it.

You can opt to "downgrade" a full attack to just a standard attack after you've declared your 1st attack and have any normal movement available, but declaring a full round attack limits your total moment to 5 for the round, unless you have a separate ability to change that.

So looking at "Shield Slam": "You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn."

Then looking at Siegebreaker's "Breaker Momentum": "At 2nd level, when a siegebreaker successfully bull rushes a foe, he can attempt an overrun combat maneuver check against that foe as a free action."
So the overrun check is a free action, which, again doesn't consume a move-action or 5-ft step, but since you are moving it will still consume your available speed for distanced traveled, same as the Shield Slam Bullrush.

So at the end, it seems like you'd be able to do:
Shield Slam -> Bull Rush + Knockback 5 ft -> Follow (5ft) -> Overrun (10ft) -> Repeat until out of movement speed (after 60ft with haste, or 4 loops).

Does this sound right?

Full round attack

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

So that seems like a general rule that would be usurped by the more specific rule of Bull Rush's wording? Correct me if I'm wrong. Trying to get an understanding of how this works.

I guess the main confusion that I have is whether or not the movement with the Shield Slam bullrush is actually a "movement action" or if it's just like a miscellaneous movement, that you can take as long as you still have unused distance to travel.

Bull Rush wrote:

Bull Rush

You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.

An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat. You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).

This is from the generic Bull Rush rules. You can choose move with the target or not if you desire, but in your case, you will almost always want to move with the target, otherwise your attacks end because you cannot move in the...

Ah got it..so you just need "available movement" not so much an "available move action". So for an enemy 10 ft away, could you move 10 ft, hit them, then follow them another 10 ft? Even though while you technically dont have any move actions left that turn, you still have more movement available?

Yes, you move with the target when you bull rush. It even says so in the Bull Rush rules.

Ah ok so the line on Shield Slams that says,

grayson773 wrote:

Name Violation wrote:

what do think happens once youve pushed your enemys away with bullrush and you only have 1 5ft step a round? sounds like a recipe for failure...

Actually good point.. I think if you are full attacking, then you can't move during the full attack... E.g. you cant do hit, move, hit, move... If you move, that ends the full attack right? Is there a way to get this functionality?

You can't normally Bull Rush opponents into walls or into other characters, but you can with Shield Slam. If you Shield-Slamming an oppoent into a wall or into your Flanking buddy, that works just fine; your victim's movement stops, and they fall Prone.

Right, but you're still not continuing the attack right? Because if you hit into the wall, bullrush, then overrun, you can move off. Onto another square..but the follow up bullrush will push them away from the wall.

So my question is, is there anyway, during a full attack action, can you carry out multiple shield slams while continuously following them?

what do think happens once youve pushed your enemys away with bullrush and you only have 1 5ft step a round? sounds like a recipe for failure...

Actually good point.. I think if you are full attacking, then you can't move during the full attack... E.g. you cant do hit, move, hit, move... If you move, that ends the full attack right? Is there a way to get this functionality?

It is an absolute shame that he doesn't have more people in his group who can capitalize on the metric asston of AoO's he can provoke :(

Yeah it is a shame ;[. I may be re-using this for another campaign where we have 3 characters in melee.

Ok I think I have an understanding of the build.. see below:

half-orc brawler 5/fighter (siegebreaker) 2/slayer 6
N Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Current Buffs (Haste + Power Attack + Studied Target)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Init +2;
Speed 30 / 60 ft. w/ Haste
Melee
. . +1 heavy shield bash +19/+19/+14/+9 (2d6+16) or
. . +1 heavy shield bash flurry of blows +17/+17/+17/+12/+7 (2d6+16) or
. . +1 heavy shield bash +19/+19 (2d6+9) or
. . +1 heavy shield bash flurry of blows +17/+17/+17/+12/+7 (2d6+16) or
. . Malestrom heavy shield bash +19/+19/+14/+9 (1d8+16) or
. . Malestrom heavy shield bash flurry of blows +17/+17/+17/+12/+7 (1d8+16) or
. . +1 spell storing armor spikes +18/+18/+13/+8 (1d6+16) or
. . +1 spell storing armor spikes flurry of blows +16/+16/+16/+11/+6 (1d6+16) or
. . unarmed strike +17/+17/+12/+7 (1d8+15) or
. . unarmed strike flurry of blows +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 (1d8+15)
Special Attacks brawler's flurry, brawler's strike (magic), breaker momentum, breaker rush, knockout 1/day (DC 17), maneuver training (bull rush +1), martial flexibility 5/day, sneak attack +2d6, studied target +2 (2nd, move action)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 7
Base Atk +13; CMB +17 (+22 bull rush, +19 overrun); CMD 32 (35 vs. bull rush, 34 vs. overrun)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Greater Bull Rush, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Pummeling Charge[ACG], Pummeling Style[ACG], Shield Master, Shield Slam, Spiked Destroyer, Stand Still, Steady Engagement, Weapon Focus (shield, heavy)
Traits armor expert, indomitable faith
Skills Acrobatics +17 (+29 to jump), Bluff +0, Intimidate +13, Perception +17, Sense Motive +2, Stealth +12, Survival +11; Racial Modifiers +2 Intimidate
Combat Gear giant fist gauntlets[UE];+1 armor spikes mithral breastplate, +1 bashing shield spikes heavy steel shield, +1 bashing shield spikes heavy steel shield, maelstrom shield[UE]

Sources used:
ACG, APG, UE, Heroes of the Streets (Siegebreaker Archetype), Inner Sea Gods (Spiked Destroyer & Steady Engagement)

I added Standstill as a feat @ Level 13 (Brawler 5) because it seems like I got an extra feat there (Brawler 5 lists "Bonus Combat Feat" & you get a feat @ lvl 5). Since I had a free feat besides Pummeling Charge, i figured why not. If you have a better feat to put here besides stand still, let me know! but until then I was grabbing Steady Engagement from Martial Flexibility

Attack Candances:
Vs. No DR Shield Flurry:
-Swap out Maelstrom shield if can't trip reliably for more dmg
-Ideally only need to trip once, so further attacks should be done with basic Bashing Shield
-Try trip first to get bonus to-Hit for rest of attacks
Malestrom Shield Bash + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Swift Action Armor Spikes+SpellDischarge + Free Trip + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Shield Bash + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Shield Bash + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Shield Bash + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Shield Bash + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Average Damage w/ Haste, P.Atk, Studied Target
(1d8+16) + (8) + (1d6+16) + (Spell) + (8)
+ (2d6+16) + (8) + (8)
+ (2d6+16) + (8) + (8)
+ (2d6+16) + (8) + (8)
+ (2d6+16) + (8) + (8)
(Assuming all hits hit) = 212 avg dmg + Spell Dmg avg damage
Also see below the average damage versus varying AC levels. This doesn't include the bullrush/overrun damage, because that is versus CMD and not AC. Also doesn't include trip bonus to hit (-4 melee AC):
Average Damage VS AC (Without Combat Maneuver Damage):

Vs. DR Unarmed Flurry:
-Technically making 16 attacks per turn (when adding up all bullrush/overrun/armor spikes, etc.). So, DR would hurt this a lot.
-Using Pummeling Style with all Unarmed would help mitigate
Unarmed Strike + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Swift Action Armor Spikes+SpellDischarge + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Unarmed Strike + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Unarmed Strike + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Unarmed Strike + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Unarmed Strike + BullRush(move5ft+ and cause dmg) + Free Overrun (cause dmg)
Average Damage w/ Haste, P.Atk, Studied Target
(1d8+15) + (8) + (1d6+16) + (Spell) + (8)
+ (1d8+15) + (8) + (8)
+ (1d8+15) + (8) + (8)
+ (1d8+15) + (8) + (8)
+ (1d8+15) + (8) + (8)
(Assuming all hits hit) = 177 + (19.5 armor spikes - DR) + (Spell Dmg - DR) - DR avg damage
Also see below the average damage versus varying AC levels. This doesn't include the bullrush/overrun damage, because that is versus CMD and not AC. Also doesn't include trip bonus to hit (-4 melee AC):
Average Damage VS AC (Without Combat Maneuver Damage):

This isn't including potential increased damage/to hit from the Bard's Inspire Courage..which is always up, Sneak attack, As well as what other wonderous Items I may have bought at this point. See charts above for average damage @ various AC... helps track damage assuming misses. And I know I may or may not hit the combat maneuvers, but cant really calculate that... so at the moment, assuming they hit.

Anything else I may be missing? I plan on incorporating the other items into the build depending on Money. Also how do you like Stand Still / Steady Engagement? I thought it could be a cool thing to stop people from passing me up just in case. And that bonus feat that we didnt account for (unless we did and I missed something) let me take both Pummeling Style and Standstill, so it worked out. All this seem about right to you? If so... then yay! I understand the build lol.

So let's talk about some Spell Strategy...

Thank you for this. I like the idea that I can be creative with this, and ill have to look at opportunities to try out some really weird spell combinations.

So I'm trying to figure out item priority based on the money I will have... can you help me fill in the priority for these items? The format that I threw together is:

-(priority) Item Name
. . Get by: max level to grab
. . cost: cost
. . Notes: questions/thoughts on the item

Items:
-(1) Add Spikes and Spell Storing to Mithril Breastplate
. . Get by: lvl 7
. . Cost: 8,350 gp
. . Notes:
. . . . Upgrade pre-existing breastplate

-(2) Maelstrom Shield
. . Get by: lvl 8
. . Cost: 14,170 gp
. . Notes:
. . . . Cant add spikes (dmg 1d8)
. . . . 1d8 dmg + trip better than 2d6 dmg right?
. . . . Should I buy two? Or no only one, because may be switching fully to unarmed only w/ Monk's robe
. . . . Without Monk's robe, unarmed doesn't pass shield dmg until lvl 20

-(3) Giant Fist Gauntlets
. . Get by: lvl 10
. . Cost: 20,000 gp
. . Notes:
. . . . Continues damage when unarmed
. . . . Only useful if: 1) attacking vs DR so unarmed is used, 2) unarmed is more than shield damage due to Monk robes

-(?) Pauldrons of the Bull
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 10,000 gp

-(?) Boots of Speed
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 12,000 gp
. . Notes:
. . . . May not be necessary as buffer bard / sorcerer are in party

-(?) Monk's Robes
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 13,000 gp

-(?) Belt of Thunderous Charging
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 10,000 gp

-(?) Gorgon's Belt
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 23,000 gp
. . Notes:
. . . . Ignoring terrain sounds great, but does poor terrain still affect bull-rush/overrun since I'm not doing it as part of a charge

-(?) Add Dispelling to Spiked Spell Storing Mithril Breastplate
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 10,000 gp

-(?) Brawling Armor Enchant
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: +3 enchant

-(?) Amulet of Might Fists
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 4000
. . Notes:
. . . . What are some good enchants besides flat for this?

-(?) Ring of the Ram
. . Get by: ?
. . Cost: 8600
. . Notes:
. . . . Can I apply my bonus damage to the bullrushes caused by this item?