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Name Violation wrote:
grayson773 wrote:
Name Violation wrote:

I read it as during a full round attack you only have 5ft of available movement.

If you have your 5ft of available movement you are free to take it.

You can opt to "downgrade" a full attack to just a standard attack after you've declared your 1st attack and have any normal movement available, but declaring a full round attack limits your total moment to 5 for the round, unless you have a separate ability to change that.

So looking at "Shield Slam": "You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn."

It doesn't say that moving with the target (so should you choose) actually uses a move action/5-foot step, it only says that you can only follow if and only if you have a move/5-foot step available. To my understanding, this is to prevent people from moving their full move action, then shield bashing and moving further... effectively increasing their total move speed. So it will use up available movement speed that you have, but not those actions.

Then looking at Siegebreaker's "Breaker Momentum": "At 2nd level, when a siegebreaker successfully bull rushes a foe, he can attempt an overrun combat maneuver check against that foe as a free action."
So the overrun check is a free action, which, again doesn't consume a move-action or 5-ft step, but since you are moving it will still consume your available speed for distanced traveled, same as the Shield Slam Bullrush.

So at the end, it seems like you'd be able to do:
Shield Slam -> Bull Rush + Knockback 5 ft -> Follow (5ft) -> Overrun (10ft) -> Repeat until out of movement speed (after 60ft with haste, or 4 loops).

Does this sound right?

no that sounds entirely wrong. "it doesnt say it actually uses" is the worst argument ive ever heard for this. hell by that logic since it "doesnt actually use" your movement, then why stop at 60ft with haste? since youve never used ANY movement by your...

Well, if you make a move action to get over to your target, you're only allowed a Standard Action and a Swift action left right? So that's 1 attack action + free bull rush + free overrun + Spiked Destroyer.

That's why its important to get the Full Attack Action off so you can get as many attacks + bull rush + overruns as possible, so you want to start each round next to your target (at least until you get Pummeling Charge), then the kid gloves come off and it's party time.

Dark Archive

also, no matter your SPEED, you dont have the MOVEMENT available, the only available MOVEMENT is 5ft step

Speed=/=movement


Name Violation wrote:

also, no matter your SPEED, you dont have the MOVEMENT available, the only available MOVEMENT is 5ft step

Speed=/=movement

Wait so that's what's confusing me. Shield Slam definitely says "You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn." This is specific to the shield slam cadance of bullrush after hitting with one's shield. So while the general rule is that you can only take 5ft step before, during, or after full attack action, isn't this a case of Specific trumps General, Since it says that you can choose to follow if you land the bullrush?


Name Violation wrote:

also, no matter your SPEED, you dont have the MOVEMENT available, the only available MOVEMENT is 5ft step

Speed=/=movement

Can you please explain how Quick Bull Rush and Bull Rush Strike work then?

Dark Archive

Ryze Kuja wrote:
Name Violation wrote:

also, no matter your SPEED, you dont have the MOVEMENT available, the only available MOVEMENT is 5ft step

Speed=/=movement

Can you please explain how Quick Bull Rush and Bull Rush Strike work then?

If you don't have the movement, you push them back but you stay put. They've been shoved away.


Name Violation wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Name Violation wrote:

also, no matter your SPEED, you dont have the MOVEMENT available, the only available MOVEMENT is 5ft step

Speed=/=movement

Can you please explain how Quick Bull Rush and Bull Rush Strike work then?
If you don't have the movement, you push them back but you stay put. They've been shoved away.

So, can you move with the target when performing a Quick Bull Rush or a Bull Rush Strike during a Full Attack Action, since you haven't used up any of your movement as a move action?

Dark Archive

Ryze Kuja wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Name Violation wrote:

also, no matter your SPEED, you dont have the MOVEMENT available, the only available MOVEMENT is 5ft step

Speed=/=movement

Can you please explain how Quick Bull Rush and Bull Rush Strike work then?
If you don't have the movement, you push them back but you stay put. They've been shoved away.
So, can you move with the target when performing a Quick Bull Rush or a Bull Rush Strike during a Full Attack Action, since you haven't used up any of your movement as a move action?

Im inclined to say no, but i can't find a hard rule about moving when it's not your turn


Name Violation wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Name Violation wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Name Violation wrote:

also, no matter your SPEED, you dont have the MOVEMENT available, the only available MOVEMENT is 5ft step

Speed=/=movement

Can you please explain how Quick Bull Rush and Bull Rush Strike work then?
If you don't have the movement, you push them back but you stay put. They've been shoved away.
So, can you move with the target when performing a Quick Bull Rush or a Bull Rush Strike during a Full Attack Action, since you haven't used up any of your movement as a move action?
Im inclined to say no, but i can't find a hard rule about moving when it's not your turn

But it is your turn when you do either of these. Quick Bull Rush is meant to take the place of your highest BAB attack during a Full Attack action, and it would be a little weird to say that Quick Bull Rushing as your first attack in a Full Attack Action doesn't allow you to move with the target and finish your attacks-- otherwise, what's the point of the feat? I might as well just use a Standard Action to Bull Rush if I'm not going to finish the rest of my attacks.

Similarly, Bull Rush Strike is meant to give you a free Bull Rush on a critical attack, and this also can be used in the beginning, middle, or end of a Full Attack Action. For example, let's say you have 3 attacks in a round, and you critical with the 2nd attack, you're allowed to Bull Rush them for free and move with them and still get your 3rd attack off after you shove them 10ft+ and move with them to do it.

Bull Rush can be like a Barroom shove where you just shove the guy back but stay in your square, but it can also be like an American Football shove where you drive the opponent backwards by man-handling them. You can even shove multiple creatures in a line as well, albeit at a -4 penalty per additional creature.

The point is that you DO have the option to move with your target WHENEVER you Bull Rush, provided that you have enough Movement Speed to perform it. It explicitly says that you have this option to move with the target or not in the Bull Rush rules.

Bull Rush wrote:

Bull Rush

You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.

An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat. You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).

Dark Archive

But none of that over rides the specific rule of the only movement available during a full round attack is a 5ft step.

You have available moment if you choose to use your move action.

Dark Archive

I interpret the line "The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks." As thats the ONLY movement. It locks you out of the option to move with the bull rush.


Then what's the point of having feats like Quick Bull Rush and Bull Rush Strike even exist?

And for that matter, what's the point of the Bull Rush rules saying that you can move with the target as long as you have movement speed? Or including the pushing multiple goblins example in the Bull Rush rules?

Dark Archive

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Then what's the point of having feats like Quick Bull Rush and Bull Rush Strike even exist?

And for that matter, what's the point of the Bull Rush rules saying that you can move with the target as long as you have movement speed? Or including the pushing multiple goblins example in the Bull Rush rules?

The standard rules on bull rush is doing it as part of a charge or a standard action. Situations where you might still have movement for the round.

Adding to an attack as an extra ability turns it into a fancy shove that gets the enemy out of your face

Dark Archive

When you charge you have movement equal to twice your speed. If you bull rush during that you can continue moving.

If you use a move action to move 30, then make a bullrush, do you believe you have 30 more feet of available movement to bull rush?


Name Violation wrote:

When you charge you have movement equal to twice your speed. If you bull rush during that you can continue moving.

If you use a move action to move 30, then make a bullrush, do you believe you have 30 more feet of available movement to bull rush?

Dont you still have movement available? Say you run the 30ft, and push them back 30ft, can't you follow for 30ft since you have another 30 ft available of movement?

Then for say, the siegebreaker's "Breaker Momemtum":
when a siegebreaker successfully bull rushes a foe, he can attempt an overrun combat maneuver check against that foe as a free action.

Does this mean you can charge 30ft, bull rush and push the enemy 30ft, follow the 30 ft (so moved a total of 60ft so far), and then overrun, which would require moving another 10ft (onto the opponent's square and then off again)? Or are you limited to 60ft because that's your total movement available per round, and unable to do the free action overrun from siegebreaker?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

So far as I am aware, Bull Rush does not change the normal movement rules at all.

"You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so."

What else is that supposed to mean?

In the 'base case' a Bull Rush is a standard action. That means there could still be a move action available, and the rules seem to indicate that you can use that movement to follow the target(s) of your Bull Rush.

For various multiple attack scenarios you are less likely to have movement (other than a 5' step) available. This means that you could easily knock a single target out of reach and thus lose subsequent attacks. However, you could still knock back multiple targets. Multiple bull rushes could thus potentially allow a single character to knock back multiple opponents 10+ feet... forcing them to use a move action to return to normal melee range and thus limiting them to a single attack. Combine that with reach and you could be getting AoO on the enemies moving back in to range.

Thus, it can be seen that there are definitely uses for these abilities. They just can't be used to generate massive amounts of 'extra' movement out of nowhere while you push a single target all over the map with repeated bull rushes.

Dark Archive

^
This. Exactly this.


You guys are quoting the general rules of Full Attack Action and saying they override the specific rules of Bull Rush, Siegebreaker abilities, and magic items, and they don't. Free Actions can be performed in the middle of Full Attack Actions, and every single one of these effects are Free Actions, and you're allowed to move with the target when you Bull Rush. And that's pretty much end of story.

Gauntlets, Giant Fist wrote:


As a swift action, the wearer of these rough leather gauntlets can expand her hands to twice normal size and harden to the consistency of hardwood. This transformation lasts for up to 20 rounds per day, though they need not be consecutive rounds. If the wearer hits with an unarmed strike or natural attack using her enlarged hands, she may attempt to bull rush her opponent as a free action.

Whoever created these Gauntlets didn't allow the Gloves to let the Wearer perform an Unarmed Attack or Bull Rush without provoking an AoO, so one could infer that these Gloves were intended to be worn by someone who had the Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Bull Rush feats, so a Bull Rush-focused Monk or Brawler immediately comes to mind. Also, whoever created these Gauntlets did so with the knowledge that Monks and Brawlers can perform a Flurry of Unarmed Strikes, and that each unarmed strike would Bull Rush the target 5ft or more. The Giant Fist Gauntlets were released in Ultimate Equipment in August 2012 and continue to exist to perform this exact function-- because if they didn't want it to work this way, they wouldn't have written it this way, nor would they have allowed it to continue this long without being FAQ'ed or Errata'ed.

If it honestly worked the way you're saying it does, there would be no reason to invest so much in buying Giant Fist Gauntlets and picking Bull Rush feats. With your way, you basically make ONE attack in your Full Attack Action and now the target is out of range and your turn ends. No player in their right mind would invest 20,000gp for Giant Fist Gauntlets if that's how they really worked.

It's not the first time someone has ever made a Siegebreaker2/BrawlerX and done this exact same thing. I've even seen Siegebreaker2/BrawlerX builds where they get don't get any shield feats like Imp Shield Bash, but instead they get Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Imp/Greater Trip, Spiked Destroyer, Vicious Stomp, Maelstrom Shield, and a Fortuitous AoMF, and take the traits Bred for War and Snowstrider, and then they get to do all the Bull Rush/Overrun nonsense, plus whenever they Shield Bash with the Maelstrom Shield and Trip, it provokes 3 Attacks of Opportunity when they fall, and 1-2 more when they get back up (depending on *when* the target gets up), and those 4-5 AoO's allow for Bull Rush + Overrun too.


I took a quick look on Reddit about any Giant Fist Gauntlet discussions, and there are several discussions that talk about using these Gauntlets to do multiple Bull Rushes per round and move with the target during your Full Attack action, but they were talking about doing this with a Monk instead of a Brawler.

So, I'm not wrong. This build works as advertised.

Dark Archive

So a fuy on reddit agrees with you is the argument?

Im just glad we play at different tables.


Name Violation wrote:
So a fuy on reddit agrees with you is the argument?

Not a single "guy" on reddit. Multiple "guys" on reddit. And people here on this site who have made similar builds. And the specific rules enumerated in Bull Rush, Giant Fist Gauntlets, and the Siegebreaker Archetype.

Name Violation wrote:
Im just glad we play at different tables.

Is that really necessary?

Dark Archive

None of the things you've brought up change the fact that no ability lets you take more than a 5 ft step. If you dont have a move action you don't have movement.

But since you are never going to see things another way, there's no point arguing in circles with you.

I suggest making another thread and asking there since that might get people actually chiming in.


Name Violation wrote:

None of the things you've brought up change the fact that no ability lets you take more than a 5 ft step. If you dont have a move action you don't have movement.

But since you are never going to see things another way, there's no point arguing in circles with you.

I suggest making another thread and asking there since that might get people actually chiming in.

What I dont understand is how this isn't a case of specific trumping general. Same as pounce working during a surprise round because of the interaction with treating charge as a standard. I feel like normally the case is true that at most you can take a 5-ft step during a FAA, but that's a general case.

If that's not right, then I want to get an idea of how to achieve something similar to this build, if not slightly different, but within the way the rules are being defined here. Currently my GM seems to care more about how this thread turns out argument-wise lol.

Dark Archive

this link from reddit agrees.
You can Google the various reddit threads. I see several that agree with my argument, and some that reiterate the opposite.

Dark Archive

As for the general/ specific rules...
Generally you can only bullrush as a standard or as part of a charge. In those situations you might have remaining movement to utilize.

When you start adding it to full round attacks it brings up interactions that can be interpreted differently.

There's also the issue of words like movement that have specific game meanings, and general language usage. And confusion around terms like speed and movement.


Name Violation wrote:

As for the general/ specific rules...

Generally you can only bullrush as a standard or as part of a charge. In those situations you might have remaining movement to utilize.

When you start adding it to full round attacks it brings up interactions that can be interpreted differently.

There's also the issue of words like movement that have specific game meanings, and general language usage. And confusion around terms like speed and movement.

hm I wish there was an FAQ for something like this, because at the moment...it seems to be an issue of semantics. If we're going with agree to disagree (at least until I try and make a post asking about this rule specifically), then there's one thing I dont understand. It's how overrun works when you're not doing a charge.

Normally with a charge, it's a straight line..but you can also overrun while simply moving, or after a shield bash bull rush (with Siegebreaker's Breaker Momentum @ lvl 2). @Ryze Kuja mentioned that I could enter the opponents square, get my overrun damage, then exit into any other adjacent square, and that it didn't have to be a straight line. However, I couldn't find the ruling on how overrun works when part of a movement. Would you (or anyone) have any idea on it? i.e. When doing an overrun as part of a shied bash bullrush, what square can I go to after exiting my opponent's square?


grayson773 wrote:
Name Violation wrote:

As for the general/ specific rules...

Generally you can only bullrush as a standard or as part of a charge. In those situations you might have remaining movement to utilize.

When you start adding it to full round attacks it brings up interactions that can be interpreted differently.

There's also the issue of words like movement that have specific game meanings, and general language usage. And confusion around terms like speed and movement.

hm I wish there was an FAQ for something like this, because at the moment...it seems to be an issue of semantics. If we're going with agree to disagree (at least until I try and make a post asking about this rule specifically), then there's one thing I dont understand. It's how overrun works when you're not doing a charge.

Normally with a charge, it's a straight line..but you can also overrun while simply moving, or after a shield bash bull rush (with Siegebreaker's Breaker Momentum @ lvl 2). @Ryze Kuja mentioned that I could enter the opponents square, get my overrun damage, then exit into any other adjacent square, and that it didn't have to be a straight line. However, I couldn't find the ruling on how overrun works when part of a movement. Would you (or anyone) have any idea on it? i.e. When doing an overrun as part of a shied bash bullrush, what square can I go to after exiting my opponent's square?

When you perform an Overrun, you forcibly move through the target's square, and if you exceed the CMD by 5 or more, the target is knocked prone in that square. Mechanically speaking, you start your Move Action, then Move wherever you want, and when you come across an enemy blocking your path, you can use your Standard Action to perform the Overrun maneuver to enter the target's square, attempt to knock them prone, and exit the target's square. The obvious use of this is to charge and plow through someone's square. But let's say you're in a confined space, such as a narrow, jagged cavernous path that's 5-10ft wide that is filled with undead enemies. Charging would be almost impossible because of the jagged path of the cave, so a more strategic use of Overrun is to start your Move Action until you reach an enemy, Overrun and plow into the target's square and then move out somewhere beneficial to you, such as diagonally to the left or right, rather than straight through, or if you were in a 5ft wide cavern, and there was a Monster blocking a T in the road, you could Overrun him by taking a hard left or right to make it towards an exit. The point is, the Overrun is normally taken during your Move Action, so you can move in any direction you'd normally be allowed to move when you Overrun. Nowhere in the Overrun rules does it say your movement has to be a straight line, but rather it says you move through his square as a part of your Move Action or a Charge. It would be different if you were actually performing an Overrun during a Charge, because the Charge action IS a straight line, and therefore you would absolutely have to go through the target's square in a straight line.

However, you'll be doing Overruns as Free Actions whenever you Bull Rush, and you won't be able to do them if you've already used all of your Movement in the round. This is why Haste is so important for you. All your shenanigans stop when you run out of movement, and each Bull Rush is going to be 5ft+, and each Overrun will be 10ft.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote:
You guys are quoting the general rules of Full Attack Action and saying they override the specific rules of Bull Rush, Siegebreaker abilities, and magic items, and they don't.

Actually, I quoted the rules for Bull Rush... and you apparently ignored it. Let's try again;

"You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so."

What does it mean when it says that you must have the available movement to follow the target? To me, that means you need to have movement remaining from a charge, move action, 5' step, etc.

You haven't provided ANY alternate explanation... OR any other text that says different. You keep saying 'specific trumps general', but the only specific text on Bull Rush agrees with the general rules about movement. There is no 'specific' difference stated anywhere here. You are assuming one by ignoring the text in Bull Rush itself which says that you must have movement available.

BTW, in addition to the 'knock back multiple enemies to disrupt their full attacks and/or get reach AoOs on them' build there are many ways to get movement (beyond 5' step) along with a full attack action. So the 'push them around with multiple attacks' type build IS possible... you just don't get magical free movement from nowhere to do it with.


Name Violation wrote:

None of the things you've brought up change the fact that no ability lets you take more than a 5 ft step. If you dont have a move action you don't have movement.

But since you are never going to see things another way, there's no point arguing in circles with you.

I suggest making another thread and asking there since that might get people actually chiming in.

It's pretty simple.

A hasted level 13 Brawler with 60ft Movement Speed (normally 30ft move speed) uses a Brawler's Flurry as a Full Attack Action to get 5 Unarmed Strikes in a given round.

The Brawler is wearing Giant Fist Gauntlets, which allow him to Bull Rush as a Free Action on each Unarmed Strike.

The Brawler has 2 levels in Siegebreaker, which allow him to perform a Free Overrun whenever he performs a Bull Rush.

The Bull Rush Rules state: "If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so."

This Brawler wishes to move with the target, and has the available movement to do so because he hasn't moved yet.

The Brawler makes his first Unarmed Strike, it is successful. He gets to Bull Rush as a Free Action because the Unarmed Strike was successful, and chooses to move 5ft with the target, and now has 55ft movement left. He now also gets to Overrun as a Free Action because he performed a Bull Rush, and travels 10ft to do it, and now has 45ft movement left.

The Brawler makes his second Unarmed Strike, it is successful. He gets to Bull Rush as a Free Action because the Unarmed Strike was successful, and chooses to move 5ft with the target, and now has 40ft movement left. He now also gets to Overrun as a Free Action because he performed a Bull Rush, and travels 10ft to do it, and now has 30ft movement left.

The Brawler makes his third Unarmed Strike, it is successful. He gets to Bull Rush as a Free Action because the Unarmed Strike was successful, and chooses to move 5ft with the target, and now has 25ft movement left. He now also gets to Overrun as a Free Action because he performed a Bull Rush, and travels 10ft to do it, and now has 15ft movement left.

The Brawler makes his fourth Unarmed Strike, it is successful. He gets to Bull Rush as a Free Action because the Unarmed Strike was successful, and chooses to move 5ft with the target, and now has 10ft movement left. He now also gets to Overrun as a Free Action because he performed a Bull Rush, and travels 10ft to do it, and now has 0ft movement left.

The Brawler makes his last Unarmed Strike, it is successful. He gets to Bull Rush as a Free Action because the Unarmed Strike was successful, and cannot move with the target because he has no movement left. He cannot Overrun because he has no movement left. He exceeds the target's CMD by 10 and decides to Bull Rush the target 15ft and not follow the target.

==========================================

It's perfectly feasible irl too. Go outside to your driveway and measure off 30ft. Set 6 seconds on a timer. "Hustle" towards the 30ft line in 6 seconds while throwing 4 punches. I'm pretty sure you can accomplish this with no problem. If you want to simulate a Haste spell, go shotgun a Red Bull, then set the line to 60ft and perform 5 punches.

Now imagine a level 13 Monk or Brawler irl, Bruce Lee maybe? Now give Bruce Lee some Giant Fist Gauntlets and Haste. A Hasted Bruce Lee moves 60ft and throws 5 punches? That would be child's play for Bruce Lee.

Dark Archive

Again just because you have speed, doesn't mean you have movement. You have a speed of 60, but only 5ft of movement


Name Violation wrote:
Again just because you have speed, doesn't mean you have movement. You have a speed of 60, but only 5ft of movement

Again, you can move with a target when you Bull Rush, and Specific Rules overrule General Rules. You're quoting a General Rule as if it overrules a Specific rule.

If you were a level 1 character with 30ft movement speed and Improved Bull Rush, you could Move 10ft as your Move Action, perform a Bull Rush as a Standard Action, roll a nat 20 and confirm, and Bull Rush that target 20feet and move with them.

If you were a level 9 character with 60ft movement speed (Hasted) and 3 Attacks and Bull Rush Strike, you could perform a Full Attack Action on a target, and hit with the first strike, Critical and Confirm with the 2nd strike, then Get your Free Bull Rush from Bull Rush Strike, and Move with the target, and then perform your 3rd attack.

If it works the way you're saying, none of these feats or items even work at all and there would be no point to getting any of them.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Again, you can move with a target when you Bull Rush. If you were a level 1 character with 30ft movement speed and Improved Bull Rush, you could Move 10ft as your Move Action, perform a Bull Rush as a Standard Action, roll a nat 20 and confirm, and Bull Rush that target 20feet and move with them.

While this isn't specifically stated, I agree that it seems the most likely intent. This would also allow multiple bull rush attacks to a single target on (for example) a charge with pounce. However, it is also notably different from what you are proposing elsewhere. Here you are saying that you can combine your normal movement with a bull rush attack.

The bigger (and IMO incorrect) claim is that on a full attack action you can REPLACE your 5' step movement with movement up to your speed in combination with multiple bull rush attacks. There is nothing to support this position, and such a radical change to the movement rules would surely be mentioned... even setting aside the simple logic that it doesn't make ANY sense that you can suddenly move more because you hit your opponents hard enough to knock them backwards.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Again, you can move with a target when you Bull Rush. If you were a level 1 character with 30ft movement speed and Improved Bull Rush, you could Move 10ft as your Move Action, perform a Bull Rush as a Standard Action, roll a nat 20 and confirm, and Bull Rush that target 20feet and move with them.

While this isn't specifically stated, I agree that it seems the most likely intent. This would also allow multiple bull rush attacks to a single target on (for example) a charge with pounce. However, it is also notably different from what you are proposing elsewhere. Here you are saying that you can combine your normal movement with a bull rush attack.

The bigger (and IMO incorrect) claim is that on a full attack action you can REPLACE your 5' step movement with movement up to your speed in combination with multiple bull rush attacks. There is nothing to support this position, and such a radical change to the movement rules would surely be mentioned... even setting aside the simple logic that it doesn't make ANY sense that you can suddenly move more because you hit your opponents hard enough to knock them backwards.

Quick Bull Rush is meant to be used as your First Attack of the round, the Highest BAB attack of your round in a Full Attack Action. With your interpretation, you replace your First Attack of the round and Bull rush them 20ft and don't follow them, and now your round is over even though you have 2-3 more attacks? What's the point of the Quick Bull Rush?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Quick Bull Rush is meant to be used as your First Attack of the round, the Highest BAB attack of your round in a Full Attack Action. With your interpretation, you replace your First Attack of the round and Bull rush them 20ft and don't follow them, and now your round is over even though you have 2-3 more attacks? What's the point of the Quick Bull Rush?

Let's say you're fighting two opponents. You knock one back 20' and then use your remaining attacks to take out the other. The first target then has to move 20' to re-engage and can't make a full attack as a result... that seems fairly useful.

OR if it is a single target you can choose to only push them back 5', use your 5' step to follow, and then make your remaining attacks.

OR you combine it with some other ability that allows movement with multiple attacks... e.g. Spring-Heeled Reaping would allow you to run up to one opponent, Quick Bull Rush them, run to another target and attack them, and then run away (up to twice your speed total movement).

Shield Slam is also fun... you Bull Rush on a shield slam, but there is a wall behind your opponent, so they are knocked prone. Now you get the rest of your attacks on them at +4.

Et cetera. These abilities are still perfectly useful without the magical free movement you are trying to add to them.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Quick Bull Rush is meant to be used as your First Attack of the round, the Highest BAB attack of your round in a Full Attack Action. With your interpretation, you replace your First Attack of the round and Bull rush them 20ft and don't follow them, and now your round is over even though you have 2-3 more attacks? What's the point of the Quick Bull Rush?

Let's say you're fighting two opponents. You knock one back 20' and then use your remaining attacks to take out the other. The first target then has to move 20' to re-engage and can't make a full attack as a result... that seems fairly useful.

OR if it is a single target you can choose to only push them back 5', use your 5' step to follow, and then make your remaining attacks.

OR you combine it with some other ability that allows movement with multiple attacks... e.g. Spring-Heeled Reaping would allow you to run up to one opponent, Quick Bull Rush them, run to another target and attack them, and then run away (up to twice your speed total movement).

Shield Slam is also fun... you Bull Rush on a shield slam, but there is a wall behind your opponent, so they are knocked prone. Now you get the rest of your attacks on them at +4.

Et cetera. These abilities are still perfectly useful without the magical free movement you are trying to add to them.

No, check the bolded print below. The fluff text says you can use your Quick Bull Rush to shove them and follow through with an attack, and it's meant to take the place of your Highest BAB attack, so it's meant to be used with a Full Attack Action. How are you going to follow through with an attack if you shove the guy 15ft but you're only allowed to move 5 ft? Bull Rush text even gives an example of pushing a goblin 5ft, hitting a 2nd goblin, and then CONTINUING to push BOTH OF THEM an additional 10 feet, pushing the first target for a total of 15ft.

Quick Bull Rush wrote:

Quick Bull Rush (Combat)

You can barrel into your opponent and follow this with an attack.

Prerequisite: Str 13, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: On your turn, you can perform a single bull rush combat maneuver in place of one of your melee attacks. You must choose the melee attack with the highest base attack bonus to make the bull rush.

Normal: A bull rush combat maneuver is a standard action.

Bull Rush wrote:

Bull Rush

You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.

An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat. You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).

For reiteration:

If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can CONTINUE to push both goblins another 10 feet.

Even though his 2nd check says he can push the 2nd goblin 20 feet, he already made the first check against the first goblin for 15 feet. So he can only shove the 1st goblin 15 feet, and obviously cannot push the 2nd goblin any further because he's stuck by the first goblin.

So normally, you would perform a Bull Rush as a Standard Action that consumes your Movement as you perform it, and the above rules prove this is correct. However, with Quick Bull Rush, you can perform this in lieu of your highest BAB attack and finish with your remaining attacks AFTER you've shoved them however far you're going to shove them.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote:
No, check the bolded print below. The fluff text says you can use your Quick Bull Rush to shove them and follow through with an attack, and it's meant to take the place of your Highest BAB attack, so it's meant to be used with a Full Attack Action.

That text is fully consistent with a scenario where you Quick Bull Rush opponent A and then attack opponent B.

Quote:
How are you going to follow through with an attack if you shove the guy 15ft but you're only allowed to move 5 ft?

As I read it you "can" push them back up to 15' if you roll high enough... but you don't have to. You can instead choose to only push them back 5', follow with your 5' step, and continue attacking the same target... again fully consistent with the fluff text.

The Spring-Heeled Reaping example I gave is ALSO fully consistent with the fluff text. In all three cases I outlined, "You can barrel into your opponent and follow this with an attack."


So, now we've established that you CAN move with your target(s) 15ft when you Bull Rush them as a Standard Action. This is evident by the Bull Rush Rules.

We just established that you CAN perform a Quick Bull Rush in place of your Highest BAB attack, push the target(s) 15ft, and continue your iterative attacks.

So let's move on?

Bull Rush Strike can be performed whenever you critically strike with a melee attack. I see no reason why Quick Bull Rush and Bull Rush Strike can't be used to perform 2 Bull Rushes in the same round, provided that you don't go over your maximum speed, would you agree? According to the Bull Rush rules, you can Bull Rush your target and move with them as long as you have the available movement to do so. So, if you Quick Bull Rush as your First attack and move the target(s) 15ft, you could then attack with your 2nd attack and critically strike, allowing you a second Bull Rush and move the target(s) an additional 15ft. And now your 30ft movement has been used up. If you had a 3rd attack because you're 11BAB+, I see no reason why you couldn't then finish that last iterative attack as well because you're standing right next to the target.


CBDunkerson wrote:


That text is fully consistent with a scenario where you Quick Bull Rush opponent A and then attack opponent B.

It's also fully consistent with the scenario where you Quick Bull Rush opponent A, and then push Opponent A for 15 feet, and then continue your Iterative attacks on Opponent A, would you agree?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote:
It's also fully consistent with the scenario where you Quick Bull Rush opponent A, and then push Opponent A for 15 feet, and then continue your Iterative attacks on Opponent A, would you agree?

No.

You can only move up to your available movement. If you are making a full attack action, your available movement is 5 feet. You cannot move 15 feet.

There are abilities that allow you to get multiple attacks while moving (e.g. Pounce, Spring-Heeled Reaping, Circling Mongoose, Whirlwind Dance, etc), but w/o those you only have 5 feet of movement when making a full attack.


Alright so looking around, I've found are 8 post citing you can't move and attack (citing the ft step rule), and around 7 posts citing that you can (citing bull rush strike and specific > general). So for now my GM is leaving it up to a party vote. So we'll see what happens. Probably will make a separate post for this at some point..as this was a good discussion for me to learn from.


CBDunkerson wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
It's also fully consistent with the scenario where you Quick Bull Rush opponent A, and then push Opponent A for 15 feet, and then continue your Iterative attacks on Opponent A, would you agree?

No.

You can only move up to your available movement. If you are making a full attack action, your available movement is 5 feet. You cannot move 15 feet.

There are abilities that allow you to get multiple attacks while moving (e.g. Pounce, Spring-Heeled Reaping, Circling Mongoose, Whirlwind Dance, etc), but w/o those you only have 5 feet of movement when making a full attack.

You don't have 5 ft of available movement during a Full Round Action, you can take a 5 ft step provided that you haven't performed any movement that round.

Full Attack Action wrote:

Full-Round Actions

A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.

^--- Sounds like there are some things that allow movement during a Full Round Action, such as Combat Patrol or Quick Bull Rush. So why do you accept the specific rules from pounce, spring-heeled reaping, circling mongoose, whirlwind dance, but then ignore the specific rules of Bull Rush and Quick Bull Rush...

For reference:

5-Foot Step wrote:


Take 5-Foot Step

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.

You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

A 5ft step is nothing like available movement, so stop saying you only have 5ft of available movement. You can do one or the other, but not both.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
If you are making a full attack action, your available movement is 5 feet.
You don't have 5 ft of available movement during a Full Round Action, you can take a 5 ft step provided that you haven't performed any movement that round.
Full Attack Action wrote:

Full-Round Actions

A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.

You are incorrectly equating 'full round action' and 'full attack action'. You even include full round action text in a section falsely labeled as quoting the 'full attack action' rules. These are different things. Specifically, a full attack action is a type of full round action which, among other things, limits your available movement to just a 5' step.

OTHER types of full round actions allow different types of movement. For example, a Run action is a type of full round action which generally allows you to move four times your base speed (3x in heavy armor, or 5x with the Run feat) but not take any other action (i.e. no 5' step).

Quote:
Sounds like there are some things that allow movement during a Full Round Action, such as Combat Patrol or Quick Bull Rush.

There are absolutely full round actions which allow movement other than a 5' step. Combat Patrol is such a full round action... it allows you to move up to your speed while making attacks of opportunity over a large area. Quick Bull Rush, on the other hand, is performed as part of some OTHER action... it has no action type of its own. It is thus subject to the movement restrictions of the action it is used with. If Quick Bull Rush is used as part of a Combat Patrol action then you can move up to your speed. If Quick Bull Rush is used as part of a full attack action then you can only take a 5' step.

Quote:
So why do you accept the specific rules from pounce, spring-heeled reaping, circling mongoose, whirlwind dance, but then ignore the specific rules of Bull Rush and Quick Bull Rush...

I accept all rules that actually exist. There is no rule, specific OR general, allowing special EXTRA movement with bull rush. Indeed, the bull rush rules specifically state that you are limited to the available movement.

Quote:
A 5ft step is nothing like available movement, so stop saying you only have 5ft of available movement. You can do one or the other, but not both.

If you perform a full round action that does NOT involve movement (e.g. the 'full attack' action) then your available movement is just a 5' step. If the full round action DOES involve movement then the amount of movement allowed is specified as part of the action.

You are arguing that you can just 'add' movement up to your speed to an action if you happen to make one or more bull rush attacks during that action. There isn't any basis for that claim.

This isn't complicated. The available movement for any action type if you include one or more bull rush attacks is exactly the same as the available movement for that action type if you do NOT include a bull rush. The available movement does not change just because you made a bull rush.


The Full Round Action rules don't state that you only have 5ft of Available Movement, it states that you can perform a 5ft Step. 5ft Steps are considered Miscellaneous Actions.

A 5ft step is NOT Available Movement, NOR is it a Move Action. It's considered a Miscellaneous Action. It has absolutely nothing to do with Available Movement during a Full Round Action or a Move Action. A 5ft Step can only be performed if you haven't taken any Movement Actions or taken any Movement in a Full Round action.

Bull Rush normally takes a Standard Action and consumes your Available Movement to allow you to move with the target. Hence the Two Goblin example in the Bull Rush rules. He performs a Bull Rush as a Standard Action, and then pushes the 1st Goblin 5ft, runs into a 2nd goblin, and then CONTINUES TO PUSH both of them up to a total of 15ft, consuming a total of 15ft of his Available Movement. <---- That's all in the Bull Rush rules.

Quick Bull Rush causes all of this to happen in place of your Highest BAB Attack and then lets you finish your iterative attacks. Hence why it is called "Quick" Bull Rush.

The Quick Bull Rush fluff text states that "You can barrel into your opponent and follow this with an attack".

It says nothing about needing multiple enemies to perform your iterative attacks. It says you barrel into your opponent (<--- single opponent) and follow THIS (<---- the Bull Rush) with an attack.

QBR is obviously meant to take place during a Full Attack Action because it consumes your Highest BAB attack. So, you QBR in place of your first attack, move the 2 goblins 15ft, then make your 2nd attack.


Miscellaneous Actions

A 5ft step has nothing to do with Available Movement or a Move Action, except its relationship that you cannot perform both a 5ft step AND movement in the same round.


Btw, I started a thread about this in the Rules Forum Bull Rush Rules Discussion.

Let’s continue the rules discussion there, and let this thread continue for Grayson as an Advice discussion.


Ryze Kuja wrote:

Btw, I started a thread about this in the Rules Forum Bull Rush Rules Discussion.

Let’s continue the rules discussion there, and let this thread continue for Grayson as an Advice discussion.

Thanks! Still looking for any and all build suggestions, but at the moment, my DM sseems to be on the side of the "movement" to follow-bullrush being available movement distance/speed. Which makes this build viable AFAIK. If there are other interesting Dual Shield builds that I could go into from the base i posted earlier, that would be great. Starting from:

CN Atheist Half-orc slayer 6
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Initiative: +2
Melee Options:
>TWF:
>>+1 heavy shield bash +12/+7 (2d6+5) & +1 heavy shield bash +12 (2d6+3) [3 atks total]
>>(P.Atk&StdTarget) +1 heavy shield bash +12/+7 (2d6+11) & +1 heavy shield bash +12 (2d6+7) [3 atks total]
>2H:
>>+1 heavy shield bash +12/+7 (2d6+7) [2 atks total]
>>(P.Atk&StdTarget) +1 heavy shield bash +12/+7 (2d6+15) [2 atks total]
Speed:
>30 ft
Special Attacks:
>sneak attack +2d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
>Str 18, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 7
>Base Atk +6; CMB +10; CMD 22
>Feats:
>>Combat Reflexes, Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Shield Master, Shield Slam, Weapon Focus (shield, heavy), Improved Bullrush
>Traits:
>>armor expert, indomitable faith
--------------------
Important Gear
--------------------
- Cloak of Greater Invisibility (3 times use daily)
- +1 mithral breastplate
- +1 bashing shield spikes heavy steel shield
- +1 bashing shield spikes heavy steel shield

Dark Archive

With brakes flurry you only need 1 shield to make all your attacks

Check out the trait shield bearer. It might help

Edit: for some reason i thought you took brawler levels


Name Violation wrote:

With brakes flurry you only need 1 shield to make all your attacks

Check out the trait shield bearer. It might help

Edit: for some reason i thought you took brawler levels

Yeah I saw that and that would be good. I don't have any brawler levels yet, but the suggestion from @ryze was to add some.

I'm trying to figure out if there is another potential build that I could follow JUST IN CASE my GM decides to go back against allowing the build that ryze suggested above. I can still see having Spike defender for the Swift action armor spikes, but I'm thinking about now another potential build where I just go for an alternative to spamming bull-rush and overrun. What's another option? Something that abuses vital strike or the dual strike weapon trick?


Grayson, I think we hashed out the rules and have come to two conclusions:

1) If you perform a Pummeling Charge with Haste, you have 120' in Available Movement, and 10' minimum needs to be spent on the charge. So if you performed a 10' charge, you would have 110' Available Movement to perform the Bull Rush and Overrun Maneuvers. Likewise, if you performed a 40' charge, you would have 80' Available Movement to perform the Bull Rush and Overrun Maneuvers.

2) The camps are divided 50/50 on the Paizo Forums and Reddit about whether your Available Movement is 30' or 5' while performing a Bull Rush during a Full Attack Action because the Full-Round Action rules clearly state that you can only take a 5ft step provided that you have taken no other movement. Conversely, there are certain feats like Circling Mongoose and Combat Patrol that allow you to move up to your base speed while performing a Full Round Action, so it's more than reasonable to interpret the Bull Rush rules as allowing your available movement to be 30' (or 60' with Haste). I also contacted James Jacobs on the matter, and he did not agree to comment on which answer was correct, but rather stated "You do whatever you want at YOUR table."

===========================================

So, there's no possible refutation that exists that you cannot do everything in this build while performing a Pummeling Charge. And the camps are divided 50/50 on whether you can do all this with a Full Attack Action. You and your GM decide on what to do.

You're going to be wanting to use Pummeling Charge to Double your Available Movement anyway, so just get 10'+ away from your target and charge, and with your final attack in the round, Bull Rush the target 5'+ and do not follow him, then in the following round you start 10'+ away and you can charge him again. Or if you do end up 5' from your target in that following round, you can Pummeling Charge a different target and take an Attack of Opportunity.

==========================================

Anywho, any more questions about your build? One other thing that I think you should try to shoot for is Combat Reflexes/Greater Trip/ViciousStomp and a Fortuitous Amulet of Mighty Fists combo. Basically, by using Trip as one of your attacks, you gain 3 Attacks of Opportunity when they fall, and 1-2 Attacks of Opportunity when they get back up (depending on "when" they get up), and each one of these attacks of opportunity can allow for the Bull Rush/Overrun shenanigans too as long as you don't exceed your Available Movement. Which places even further importance on doing Pummeling Charges for the additional 60' Available Movement.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
So, there's no possible refutation that exists that you cannot do everything in this build while performing a Pummeling Charge. And the camps are divided 50/50 on whether you can do all this with a Full Attack Action. You and your GM decide on what to do.

Got so pummeling charge can do.. full attack 50/50.. but GM seems to be in the camp of "available movement speed".. so that's good.

Ryze Kuja wrote:
You're going to be wanting to use Pummeling Charge to Double your Available Movement anyway, so just get 10'+ away from your target and charge, and with your final attack in the round, Bull Rush the target 5'+ and do not follow him, then in the following round you start 10'+ away and you can charge him again. Or if you do end up 5' from your target in that following round, you can Pummeling Charge a different target and take an Attack of Opportunity

This makes total sense. No complaints here

Ryze Kuja wrote:
Anywho, any more questions about your build?

I like the idea with adding greater trip into this cycle. I'm probably going to end up doing this. With the rules question sorted out as far as my GM is concerned, I think you've answered my questions! If I think of one I'll definitely come back to you (can you PM on here?), but otherwise Thank you!


Ah the one question that I thought of.. was to ask:

Where do you see the rules for Overrun that mention being able to exit into any square after entering opponent's square? I see that normally with an charge+overrun you'd exit the opponents square in a straight line. Where do you see that it lets you exit in a non-straight line?

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