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But the weapon damage type is unconnected to Rage Damage. Listing it that way is unnecessarily confusing.Well some people are confused. Many people are not making the distinction between damage from the weapon, and additional damage from rage.
Its a simple mistake to make and it does remove the annoying double resistance technicality.
But Paizo have worded it separately.
Not what was being talked about, you’re Guide words it like the Instinct grants 2 at the same time.
did a comparison, backswing is very bad
I thought it would be better, but it really doesn't compare.
If you miss you get a bonus to hit, that’s pretty good.
Yes but
1) You have to remember it
2) You have to miss the hit before - so like only 50% chance on the second swing. For the third swing you have maybe a 75% chance of it activating.
3) You also need to be making extra attacks, which is not always guaranteed, especially for the third attack. Often you have to do something like rage or move....
So it is a good bonus. But only to secondary atacks.
It is on the greatclub, not the worst weapon but not really otherwise on anyones list of favourites. Plus an oriental weapon. So its just not going to show up much on PCs.
Sweep is inherently better, since you don't have to miss, and it interacts with Swipe. The Falchion is very enticing with both Sweep and Forceful. The lack of Reach is the only real drawback.
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Why do you say that spirit rage deals 2 damage types?
It cleary says it does positive or negative instead of normal damage.
so you only have to deal with positive or negative damage resistance while raging. And postive and negative damage resistance is relatively rare as far as I know.
When you are raging, you can increase your damage from Rage from 2 to 3 and deal negative or positive damage, instead of the normal damage type for your weapon or unarmed attack (choose each time you Rage).The instincts (Dragon/Spirit) change the type of the all the rage damage which is additional damage.
But the weapon damage remains its normal type. Do you disagree?
If all the damage is changed type then this is not an increased problem.
Huh. I definitely read those as all the damage being changed. It didn't even occur to me there could be another interpretation until I read this thread.
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Oh, wow. I missed that. That's terrible.Their anathema stops them from using all weapons with rage from level 1.Also, animal gives you d12 weapons with reach. In my opinion, the extra damage from die increase should be added on top of rage extra damage to assess the value of Animal Barbarian.
And Fury is clearly the worst instinct, there's just no reason to choose it over the others.
My big problem with Animal is that they are stuck with 1d10 weapon, 2 points of rage damage, no better AC. Until level 6/7. Its pretty woeful to start with.
Fury is just bad. I'm not sure what the story is there. Did they have some feats for it then just kill them?
Until they get Weapon Specialization at 7th, an Animal Instinct Barbarian can just use a Bastard Sword, Greataxe, Greatsword, Maul, or any other weapon they want.
Their base Instinct Ability doesn't modify what weapons Rage damage applies to, so it works with all Melee and Unarmed attacks. The damage bonus only becomes specifically for their Animal attacks once they get the Specialization Ability. But yes, +2 is crappy compared to the other Instincts.
It's really not. Not at level 1 to 5, anyway. All violating an Instinct Anathema costs you is cost you the Instinct abilities and Feats. That's really bad at higher levels, but at level 5 or earlier it just costs you your natural attack. You can still Rage and use it just fine.
It's really not. Not at level 1 to 5, anyway. All violating an Instinct Anathema costs you is cost you the Instinct abilities and Feats. That's really bad at higher levels, but at level 5 or earlier it just costs you your natural attack. You can still Rage and use it just fine.Oh, wow. I missed that. That's terrible.Their anathema stops them from using all weapons with rage from level 1.Also, animal gives you d12 weapons with reach. In my opinion, the extra damage from die increase should be added on top of rage extra damage to assess the value of Animal Barbarian.
And Fury is clearly the worst instinct, there's just no reason to choose it over the others.
My big problem with Animal is that they are stuck with 1d10 weapon, 2 points of rage damage, no better AC. Until level 6/7. Its pretty woeful to start with.
Fury is just bad. I'm not sure what the story is there. Did they have some feats for it then just kill them?
Until they get Weapon Specialization at 7th, an Animal Instinct Barbarian can just use a Bastard Sword, Greataxe, Greatsword, Maul, or any other weapon they want.
Their base Instinct Ability doesn't modify what weapons Rage damage applies to, so it works with all Melee and Unarmed attacks. The damage bonus only becomes specifically for their Animal attacks once they get the Specialization Ability. But yes, +2 is crappy compared to the other Instincts.
OK, I missed that. But my group would just consider that bad roleplaying. Using that as a regular tactic would cause significant complaints at the table.
Huh. I definitely read those as all the damage being changed. It didn't even occur to me there could be another interpretation until I read this thread.Why do you say that spirit rage deals 2 damage types?
It cleary says it does positive or negative instead of normal damage.
so you only have to deal with positive or negative damage resistance while raging. And postive and negative damage resistance is relatively rare as far as I know.
When you are raging, you can increase your damage from Rage from 2 to 3 and deal negative or positive damage, instead of the normal damage type for your weapon or unarmed attack (choose each time you Rage).The instincts (Dragon/Spirit) change the type of the all the rage damage which is additional damage.
But the weapon damage remains its normal type. Do you disagree?
If all the damage is changed type then this is not an increased problem.
I think that probably most people will play that way. Mostly because they won't notice. It's a simplification, but also a reasonable way of dealing with the double resistance scenario - if you think that is a problem.
The more I look at it, the less I like the Giant Instinct. Your main reason (mechanically) for taking this instinct is that it grants you +2 to damage over the next best choice. While that will add up to a whole lot of damage over the course of 20 levels, I'm just not sure it adds up to much at all in any given fight. Early on, barbarians are likely to overkill fairly often anyway. Later on, those 2 points become less and less important as hit points go up.
For that damage, you make yourself easier to hit. In PF1, this would likely have been a fair trade off, but given how crits work in PF2, I just don't see it as worthwhile. How much of that extra damage are you going to lose by virtue of going unconscious due to a crit or two? Somebody smarter than me can probably do the math, but also consider that much of the time, absent feat investment, when you do go unconscious, you will be giving up that extra damage for the rest of the fight.
Now there will occasionally be times where the Giant feats will get you an extra attack or two thanks to having a longer reach, but a lot of that can even be made up for by Dragon once they gain the ability to fly. I suppose the only real big issue will come with the two types of damage from draconic rage and how often that comes up with resistances. But unless I'm just missing something giant just seems pretty not worth it. I might even rate it below Animal given the defensive advantage you get with Animal.
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The more I look at it, the less I like the Giant Instinct. Your main reason (mechanically) for taking this instinct is that it grants you +2 to damage over the next best choice. While that will add up to a whole lot of damage over the course of 20 levels, I'm just not sure it adds up to much at all in any given fight. Early on, barbarians are likely to overkill fairly often anyway. Later on, those 2 points become less and less important as hit points go up.
It's 6 points more than Animal or Fury, and 5 more than Spirit. Only Dragon comes close. So that's definitely a factor in what's going on there.
For that damage, you make yourself easier to hit. In PF1, this would likely have been a fair trade off, but given how crits work in PF2, I just don't see it as worthwhile. How much of that extra damage are you going to lose by virtue of going unconscious due to a crit or two? Somebody smarter than me can probably do the math, but also consider that much of the time, absent feat investment, when you do go unconscious, you will be giving up that extra damage for the rest of the fight.
-1 AC is indeed a high price to pay, and definitely the downside of Giant. It's not an insurmountable disadvantage, but it is a real one.
Now there will occasionally be times where the Giant feats will get you an extra attack or two thanks to having a longer reach, but a lot of that can even be made up for by Dragon once they gain the ability to fly. I suppose the only real big issue will come with the two types of damage from draconic rage and how often that comes up with resistances. But unless I'm just missing something giant just seems pretty not worth it. I might even rate it below Animal given the defensive advantage you get with Animal.
You have to bear several things in mind here:
1. Reach plus AoO means that anyone getting into melee with you with less Reach tends to provoke at least one AoO...or prevents people from engaging with you at all. Both are stellar advantages, and in the case of people getting hit, a really huge DPR increase.
2. Flight is great, but relatively easy to get via items or spells. Reach is a harder advantage to acquire, and usually comes with penalties at least as bad as Clumsy 1. So...the starting advantages may favor Dragon Totem here, but with buffs and items in play it doesn't look quite as rosy.
3. Elemental Resistance is not rare at all. Acid is your best bet for avoiding this, but even there, especially at high levels, many casters have Resist Energy.
Fair point on the Animal/Fury damage, it does become more worthwhile there I agree. I might have to reevaluate it vis-a-vis Animal at least. I agree that Fury is underwhelming unless you just really like the feats AND your table is roleplay heavy such that the lack of Anathema is more beneficial.
The elemental resistance is definitely noteworthy, I agree, and I also agree that acid is probably your best choice, followed probably by poison. Though that does also give counterplay to the Dragonic totem's resistance feature since the less resisted elements are also probably the less likely to be used against you. The breath weapon ability (realizing there's situations it won't help) does likely help with some of the offset in damage though by being able to hit multiple targets.
I agree that outside of Giant Instinct, the barbarian, on his own, doesn't have a real easy access to reach, but its also likely that he has a buddy capable of casting Enlarge and scrolls/wands wouldn't be too costly. Granted, it comes with the same disadvantage of clumsy 1, but probably shouldn't be that difficult to acquire.
That said, your points are certainly worth considering. I had glossed over just how big the damage difference between Giant and Animal was, so would definitely have to take that into consideration.
I guess my question would be, have you been able to see the giant instinct in play? Did he/she hold up well enough? Obviously its easy enough to ruminate over "could be's" and "maybes" on paper, but a different thing altogether when actually playing it. (Honest question by the way, not trying to be sarcastic/argumentative).
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I guess my question would be, have you been able to see the giant instinct in play? Did he/she hold up well enough? Obviously its easy enough to ruminate over "could be's" and "maybes" on paper, but a different thing altogether when actually playing it. (Honest question by the way, not trying to be sarcastic/argumentative).
From my play experience...
The drawbacks to reflex saves and AC is pretty noticeable. You will be crit quite a bit.
The main thing i was excited for was getting AoOs with reach and using Whirlwind attack to attack a bunch of people. In practice:
Reach and AoOs
I wasn't able to use Titan's stature that often because of cramped spaces (probably got to use it around 40% of the time). I got some AoOs but if i wasn't able to get huge the monsters often had comparable reach even when i was using a reach weapon. All in all i felt that 2 feats was not fetching me enough benefit beyond just using an enlarge potion which provides reach AND a damage bonus. In fact you could just be a giant instinct barb for the extra rage damage but use the enlarge potions to save yourself some feats and do more damage.
Whirlwind Strike
In practice, I rarely got much good use out of Whirlwind strike. By the time you get it most of the monsters are large size or more and hard to pack in a lot of enemies and the 3 action requirement makes it hard to line up properly. If you regularly get access to haste it would make it a little better to use.
Your 3rd Attack
The barbarian list is a little light on things to do for your 3rd attack so plan accordingly.
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I guess my question would be, have you been able to see the giant instinct in play? Did he/she hold up well enough? Obviously its easy enough to ruminate over "could be's" and "maybes" on paper, but a different thing altogether when actually playing it. (Honest question by the way, not trying to be sarcastic/argumentative).
Only very briefly during the playtest (where someone played the pregen of Amiri). The rest is mathematical analysis, having looked through the Bestiaries and adventures for what NPCs have and can do, seeing how good Reach is in other contexts, and hearing from other people who've seen things in play.
And yeah, Enlarge is good. However, if you have someone to cast it, it's actually better for Giant Instinct than anyone else, as Clumsy ratings don't stack and the Giant Instinct Barbarian does still receive the damage bonus.
I guess my question would be, have you been able to see the giant instinct in play? Did he/she hold up well enough? Obviously its easy enough to ruminate over "could be's" and "maybes" on paper, but a different thing altogether when actually playing it. (Honest question by the way, not trying to be sarcastic/argumentative).From my play experience...
The drawbacks to reflex saves and AC is pretty noticeable. You will be crit quite a bit.
The main thing i was excited for was getting AoOs with reach and using Whirlwind attack to attack a bunch of people. In practice:
Reach and AoOs
I wasn't able to use Titan's stature that often because of cramped spaces (probably got to use it around 40% of the time). I got some AoOs but if i wasn't able to get huge the monsters often had comparable reach even when i was using a reach weapon. All in all i felt that 2 feats was not fetching me enough benefit beyond just using an enlarge potion which provides reach AND a damage bonus. In fact you could just be a giant instinct barb for the extra rage damage but use the enlarge potions to save yourself some feats and do more damage.Whirlwind Strike
In practice, I rarely got much good use out of Whirlwind strike. By the time you get it most of the monsters are large size or more and hard to pack in a lot of enemies and the 3 action requirement makes it hard to line up properly. If you regularly get access to haste it would make it a little better to use.Your 3rd Attack
The barbarian list is a little light on things to do for your 3rd attack so plan accordingly.
Thanks for the response! Enlarge/Giant/Titan Stature is definitely one of those things that is going to very much be campaign specific in terms of its usefulness. Obviously cramped dungeons/buildings are going to make it more difficult. Heck, even the size of your party could affect it. A larger party will create cramped quarters a lot quicker.
The crits are definitely what concerned me. You'll likely get crit twice as often as a giant instinct barbarian and that's likely to add up over time. And with the way Wounded/Dying work, going unconscious is particularly bad (though to be fair, you are much less likely to outright die now as a result than in 1ed).
Only very briefly during the playtest (where someone played the pregen of Amiri). The rest is mathematical analysis, having looked through the Bestiaries and adventures for what NPCs have and can do, seeing how good Reach is in other contexts, and hearing from other people who've seen things in play.And yeah, Enlarge is good. However, if you have someone to cast it, it's actually better for Giant Instinct than anyone else, as Clumsy ratings don't stack and the Giant Instinct Barbarian does still receive the damage bonus.
Also good points. Reach is definitely nothing to sneeze at.
I'm playing a dragon instinct barbarian at the moment.They are not quite as tough as I thought they would be, but maybe more due to bad rolls than the class. That -1 AC raging is a real headache in PF2 as crits are so much easier.
Dragon Instinct is thematically cool. It has the best instinct feats. I chose blue dragon. I thought acid would be best as well, but after cursory glance of the bestiary, electricity resistance seems fairly uncommon. No longer do all demons have electricity immunity, which is nice. Quite a few creatures have acid immunity. The downside of dragon is golems and the double resistance against mixed physical and electrical damage. Upside is a cool breath weapon, dragon flight whenever you rage, and the ability to turn into a dragon. That is just cool.
I hope this barbarian gets better. He sure gets beat down a lot early on. I didn't think a -1 AC would be this big a deal. But when you're the primary front line melee, that -1 AC is a big deal.
I hope this barbarian gets better. He sure gets beat down a lot early on. I didn't think a -1 AC would be this big a deal. But when you're the primary front line melee, that -1 AC is a big deal.
Yes. I like Barbarians a lot. But they work best if they have a melee partner like a Paladin or a Fighter. Then they really shine. Being the sole front line melee combatant is tough.
Yes. I like Barbarians a lot. But they work best if they have a melee partner like a Paladin or a Fighter. Then they really shine. Being the sole front line melee combatant is tough.
I hope this barbarian gets better. He sure gets beat down a lot early on. I didn't think a -1 AC would be this big a deal. But when you're the primary front line melee, that -1 AC is a big deal.
I am getting the feeling that they are supposed to be more of a damage dealer like a rogue that rages than a damage taking type. We will see in time. Once I get Renewed Vigor, this will be like a shield block every round for one action without the shield AC. Hopefully that will help.
I do love the look of a barbarian raging with a huge falchion with electricity running up and down the blade. It looks awesome in my mind's eye.
Yeah the AC penalty is noteworthy, one of the reasons I'm concerned about giant since they essentially have a -2 penalty to AC and -1 Reflex. If Dragon takes a beating giant really will.
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I feel like Reach is the real draw of the Giant Barbarian, moreso than "the biggest numbers." Where this gets really silly is when you can whirlwind strike everybody within a 30' circle.
Every giant barbarian I've seen was aiming for the ability to do that.
Fair point on the Animal/Fury damage, it does become more worthwhile there I agree. I might have to reevaluate it vis-a-vis Animal at least. I agree that Fury is underwhelming unless you just really like the feats AND your table is roleplay heavy such that the lack of Anathema is more beneficial.
The elemental resistance is definitely noteworthy, I agree, and I also agree that acid is probably your best choice, followed probably by poison. Though that does also give counterplay to the Dragonic totem's resistance feature since the less resisted elements are also probably the less likely to be used against you. The breath weapon ability (realizing there's situations it won't help) does likely help with some of the offset in damage though by being able to hit multiple targets.
I agree that outside of Giant Instinct, the barbarian, on his own, doesn't have a real easy access to reach, but its also likely that he has a buddy capable of casting Enlarge and scrolls/wands wouldn't be too costly. Granted, it comes with the same disadvantage of clumsy 1, but probably shouldn't be that difficult to acquire.
That said, your points are certainly worth considering. I had glossed over just how big the damage difference between Giant and Animal was, so would definitely have to take that into consideration.
I guess my question would be, have you been able to see the giant instinct in play? Did he/she hold up well enough? Obviously its easy enough to ruminate over "could be's" and "maybes" on paper, but a different thing altogether when actually playing it. (Honest question by the way, not trying to be sarcastic/argumentative).
Animal trades off some damage for defense + access to hard to get weapon traits like grapple on strong weapons. So losing 6 damage but gaining at least 2-3 AC is a reasonable trade. A bit less up front damage for a pretty sizable drop in the chance an opponent gets a crit on you. You can't do damage when you are dead.
I feel like Reach is the real draw of the Giant Barbarian, moreso than "the biggest numbers." Where this gets really silly is when you can whirlwind strike everybody within a 30' circle.
Every giant barbarian I've seen was aiming for the ability to do that.
I think animal is a bit like this too with grapple. Given all the grapple options with the animal instinct I think most who are interested in a kind of grappling barbarian would go that route because mechanically it works easier.
I feel like Reach is the real draw of the Giant Barbarian, moreso than "the biggest numbers." Where this gets really silly is when you can whirlwind strike everybody within a 30' circle.
Every giant barbarian I've seen was aiming for the ability to do that.
Yeah its a very cool image. The problem is that it comes aboard so late, and even then you may not get a ton of opportunities to actually implement it. Plus in the interim you put up with a lot of unconsciousness (likely). In the end I may just have to run the numbers to see, it just "feels" like giant is giving up a lot to get a not as big return, but feel is tricky and not nearly as good as actual numbers. I do think it comes a bit more closer to Animal than I initially thought. Animal gets the defense and the cool unarmed maneuvers, while Giant will get a lot more damage in the long run. That's actually a pretty good balance/trade off. Dragon still feels as though it clearly places itself better, but of course resistances might change that. That's a lot harder to figure out with pure number crunching since resistances are going to be very campaign dependent.
I've updated this guide to the newly released Advanced Player Guide
There are a lot more archetypes, and ancestries. The barbarian has so many good feats at levels 6, 8, 10 it is very hard to choose.
There are finally enough good reactions that you don't absolutely have to take Attack of Opportunity with every build.
Thankyou Paizo
Someone pointed out in another thread, the celebrity archetype has the never tire reaction that would facilitate rage cycling.
Nice catch. I'm not sure that Rage Cycling is yet worth the cost of two feats. You can get some healing and temporary hitpoints out of it. What else?
i generally like the guid, my only issue with barbarian as of right now is that i cannot get all the feats i want from a barbarian.
like animal barbarian is my favorite, but i have to choose between animal skin and attack of opportunity at level 6, wich sucks. because they both are pretty much mandatory and id LIKE brutal bully for the grappling theme.
you basically are a bad fighter without rage so second wind seems mandatory to me.
embrace the pain and furious grab at 12 along with predators pounce.
for as much as i like animal instinct, i feel like i have to take some of its stuff wich results in me unable to take other ones id want.
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Someone pointed out in another thread, the celebrity archetype has the never tire reaction that would facilitate rage cycling.Nice catch. I'm not sure that Rage Cycling is yet worth the cost of two feats. You can get some healing and temporary hitpoints out of it. What else?
Yeah, that's about it. You could rage, furious finish, never tire, and second wind to rage again, but that's 4 class feats to do.
Someone pointed out in another thread, the celebrity archetype has the never tire reaction that would facilitate rage cycling.Nice catch. I'm not sure that Rage Cycling is yet worth the cost of two feats. You can get some healing and temporary hitpoints out of it. What else?Yeah, that's about it. You could rage, furious finish, never tire, and second wind to rage again, but that's 4 class feats to do.
my understanding is second wind allows that already, so never tire would need to allow you to not have to use second wind in order for it to be useful?
I'm find the Draconic Barbarian not quite as good as the giant. Magic immunity or general damage immunity is pretty common and really impacts draconic rage damage. We fought wisps and they were magic immune, thus immune to dragon rage damage. A blink spell reduced dragon damage by 10 rather than 5. Golems are immune. Energy resistance can be had quite easily as well. Whereas giant damage hammers through nearly everything.
Now that you have the option to gain wings through your ancestry, seems better to take Tiefling or Aasimar to gain flight.
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Second Wind lets you do the trick once, that plus Never Tire arguably lets you do it every single round (since Second Wind's downside is just fatigue, which Never Tire lets you ignore).
The wording on Second Wind is fairly ambiguous whether it even works for a third Rage, though, so I'd expect table variation.
i generally like the guid, my only issue with barbarian as of right now is that i cannot get all the feats i want from a barbarian.
like animal barbarian is my favorite, but i have to choose between animal skin and attack of opportunity at level 6, wich sucks. because they both are pretty much mandatory and id LIKE brutal bully for the grappling theme.
you basically are a bad fighter without rage so second wind seems mandatory to me.
embrace the pain and furious grab at 12 along with predators pounce.
for as much as i like animal instinct, i feel like i have to take some of its stuff wich results in me unable to take other ones id want.
It is doable
Take one of the human or part human heritages, so you can get an extra level 1 class feat to help
Fighter at level 2
The Fighter Attack of Opportunity at level 4
Animal Skin at 6
But yes it would be much better if Paizo pushed a couple of feats to level 4
i generally like the guid, my only issue with barbarian as of right now is that i cannot get all the feats i want from a barbarian.
like animal barbarian is my favorite, but i have to choose between animal skin and attack of opportunity at level 6, wich sucks. because they both are pretty much mandatory and id LIKE brutal bully for the grappling theme.
you basically are a bad fighter without rage so second wind seems mandatory to me.
embrace the pain and furious grab at 12 along with predators pounce.
for as much as i like animal instinct, i feel like i have to take some of its stuff wich results in me unable to take other ones id want.
It is doable
Take one of the human or part human heritages, so you can get an extra level 1 class feat to help
Fighter at level 2
The Fighter Attack of Opportunity at level 4
Animal Skin at 6But yes it would be much better if Paizo pushed a couple of feats to level 4
its bordering on munchkinism but ancient elf for fighter then you can still take a level 2 feat and get aoo at 4. but you also get penalty to con and less hp to start. so it might balance out.
I'm finding giant instinct Clumsy isn't so terrible. There are so many times you get frightened or sickened or some other status modifier, that clumsy often isn't noticeable. If the other status modifier isn't higher than clumsy 1, it has no real effect on your AC.
Thanks for this. As a new (to PF) player who is playing a Barbarian in an upcoming campaign, it gave me a lot to think about. I'm curious though, in the sample builds,. why Dragon Instinct/Maul on the Tengu Marshall? Wouldn't a more tactical build be better suited to a reach weapon, or even Giant Instinct? The Tengu feats are giving you the flight etc that you would get from Dragon, and since the build moves towards AoO/Topple Foe and Whirlwind Strike, I feel like the reach would benefit. What am I missing?
Reach is always beneficial, but the Tengu has some other reactions. It does get reach in its final Great Tengu form. But you are probably right until then a reach weapon would be better.
The other thing I wanted to fit in but couldn't was One-Toed Hop
I'm finding giant instinct Clumsy isn't so terrible. There are so many times you get frightened or sickened or some other status modifier, that clumsy often isn't noticeable. If the other status modifier isn't higher than clumsy 1, it has no real effect on your AC.
Its very GM and encounter dependant. But yes the problem is a total 1 Point of AC only and space. If you are happy with that then Giant is the best.
I just looked at your example builds. The Dragon Sentinel picks Steel Skin as his 4th level feat. That's basically correct, but it's a skill feat. You can pick it (and Armor Specialist at level 6!) without spending your valuable class feats.
I just looked at your example builds. The Dragon Sentinel picks Steel Skin as his 4th level feat. That's basically correct, but it's a skill feat. You can pick it (and Armor Specialist at level 6!) without spending your valuable class feats.
True, adjusted.
A small number of feats listed under the Archetypes are skill feats.
I see that you rated the swashbuckler class pretty low and only recommended the braggard style. However if you take the gymnast style you can have a +1 to grapple, trip and shove with panache which is pretty nuts for a level 2 feat.
I still haven't had a really good look though the 4 new classes in the APG yet. I will get back to them.
Too busy looking at all the extras for the existing classes.
I've wanted to do a guide on a martial class for some time. The recommendations just come out so different.
The ratings are relative to each other and are more about pointing out the differences as I see them. Hopefully its useful to you, and you can see past my prejudices to find some gems.
This has been interesting for me but I've had enough. I'm not expecting to do another guide.
Comments are welcome.
so i was looking at things today, and thought..you know...why cant you do a berserker dual wield barbarian? dual weapon warrior and double slice. you choose between either taking a -2 to your offhand or halving your rage damage. id probably opt for the -2. especially at higher levels.
but looking it over, it looks pretty good. just not sure wich barbarian id use.
I've wanted to do a guide on a martial class for some time. The recommendations just come out so different.
The ratings are relative to each other and are more about pointing out the differences as I see them. Hopefully its useful to you, and you can see past my prejudices to find some gems.
This has been interesting for me but I've had enough. I'm not expecting to do another guide.
Comments are welcome.
so i was looking at things today, and thought..you know...why cant you do a berserker dual wield barbarian? dual weapon warrior and double slice. you choose between either taking a -2 to your offhand or halving your rage damage. id probably opt for the -2. especially at higher levels.
but looking it over, it looks pretty good. just not sure wich barbarian id use.
And Rage isn't precision damage so it circumvents Double Slice's restriction to avoid stacking riders like that. I like this idea, and I agree the -2 is the correct choice. Probably go with sword and board, since you can raise shield while raging to offset the AC loss...
Double shield giant barbarian? Maximum disrespect for resistances there.
dual weapon warrior gives you the twin parry stuff as well, only a +1 when you dont have the parry trait true, but seems good still.
looking it over you get
twin parry for increased ac if you want it
flensing slice, so if you hit with both attacks you get persistent bleed damage and give some debuffs.
follow up assault, if you missed with one of your double slice swings you can swing again and add backswing+forceful. granted it would be at a lower map. so maybe not worth it.
dual onslaught, if you miss with both strikes, hit with one of your weapons anyway.
giants stature maybe for the reach.
I've wanted to do a guide on a martial class for some time. The recommendations just come out so different.
The ratings are relative to each other and are more about pointing out the differences as I see them. Hopefully its useful to you, and you can see past my prejudices to find some gems.
This has been interesting for me but I've had enough. I'm not expecting to do another guide.
Comments are welcome.
so i was looking at things today, and thought..you know...why cant you do a berserker dual wield barbarian? dual weapon warrior and double slice. you choose between either taking a -2 to your offhand or halving your rage damage. id probably opt for the -2. especially at higher levels.
but looking it over, it looks pretty good. just not sure wich barbarian id use.
Dual wield for a barb is possible, but if you want to go dual wield, wouldn't fighter or ranger fit the mold better? Ranger you can go Dual wield and have almost no MAP from lvl 1.
Flencing slice would work, as you have that 3rd action which you don't want to use for attack anyway at a -10. But traits like Forceful or sweep won't work (needs to be the same weapon). Plus, there aren't many d8 weapons with things like trip and/or reach. You'd almost also include the bastion archetype to have the free hand option if you go for sword and board.
Seems like if you go barb with Double Slice, there are a lot of barb feats that don't work. Sweep/whirlwind for example work for big dice.
In an early DPR contest, Barbarian w/ Double Slice won. So it's a completely valid build. And that was before the Dual-Weapon Warrior so now you can bypass the hardly useful MCD Fighter feat and jump right in at 2nd level.
I also think Dual Onslaught's a fine trade for having lower die types on other Barbarian feats. Nearly guaranteed Barb damage vs. bosses?
Yes, please.
I'd skip most or all of the defensive options, rather going with a shield instead. Too many good feats to skip.
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Dual wield for a barb is possible, but if you want to go dual wield, wouldn't fighter or ranger fit the mold better? Ranger you can go Dual wield and have almost no MAP from lvl 1.
Rangers have very low MAP, but no bonus damage. Or they have bonus damage but then just normal MAP (by going Precision Edge).
Double Slice on a Barbarian is extremely powerful for single target damage. Applying your full Rage damage bonus to two attacks made at 0/-2 is a huge boost in overall damage.
If you can manage the action cost (i.e. don't have an Animal Companion), I'd even say a Precision Edge ranger with Double Slice would be a force to be reckoned with. And unlike the Barbarian, he wouldn't even lose much damage when using an agile offhand.
But traits like Forceful or sweep won't work (needs to be the same weapon).
You're basically making your second attack with a +3 bonus, MUCH better than sweep. The increased hit chance boosts your damage far beyond anything Forceful can hope to accomplish.
Plus, there aren't many d8 weapons with things like trip and/or reach.
"Not many" isn't the same as "none" ;)
And it's not like weapons without those traits aren't perfecly serviceable. I have yet to see a fighter complain about the performance of his longsword.
Seems like if you go barb with Double Slice, there are a lot of barb feats that don't work. Sweep/whirlwind for example work for big dice.
Those might work better for big dice, but they still work with one handed Weapons. And again, a Double Slice build is about dropping one enemy as fast as possible, not injuring a bunch of them.