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Seriously, why can't I logically do these things at once?
It seems so weird that, because we all Follow the Expert ranger when he uses Avoid Notice that we're all suddenly stumbling into EVERY. SINGLE. TRAP.
Just doesn't make sense. Are we doing it wrong? Why on Golarion is there even such an immersion breaking arbitrary rule as "one exploration activity at a time?"
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I personally allow multiple exploration activities to be done at the same time, with proper penalties applied.
So if for instance a character wanted to scout, avoid notice, and search, you would be travelling at 1/8 your max speed. Half for each different activity you wanted to do, representing the extra time you are taking to do all of these things at the same time.
If on the other hand you were Detecting Magic and Searching at the same time, you would be moving at 1/4 speed.
I also usually don't bother making my characters do this in situations where it wouldn't make sense. If they are simply traveling between towns or something similarly mundane, the stress of constantly being silent, searching the road for traps and Scouting for enemies would not only slow their progress substantially, but it would cause them to become fatigued at an impressive rate.
If they are ambushed, I tend to give them a few chances to notice that something is up before springing the trap, whether that is through secret rolls I make for them noticing something, or narrative clues. Smoke on the horizon in a dangerous area usually signals that something is going on. Screams carrying through the air may make them ready for combat and hurry to see what is happening.
Nobody is having fun if a Pit happens to open up on a well traveled road for no reason other than to "gotcha" the players after all.
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As beowulf says - the one activity is meant for normal exploration speed. If you would do multiple you would be severely slowed down or would do one or several of the tasks in a shoddy way (getting a negative circumstance bonus).
This game is about making decisions and taking consequences. You can't have your cake and eat it. That is the whole philosophy behind the rules.
Otherwise why bother playing - you just build the most potent character and auto succeed on everything.
I once experienced this at my table and this was one of my saddest experiences. A whole group build to auto succeed everything. The group was forced (due to time) to split up tasks.
3 auto succeeds. Unfortunately for person 4 the only tasks left included a dice roll. That one could have auto-succeeded on one or two other tasks but other characters where better at these. That player was good but not stellar. He/She needed an above average roll (11+) to succeed and broke out in tears because of the stress to have to roll and not knowing if it would be a success. Was 1e - so no hero-point yet.
Worst of all - 3 out of 4 was all needed to succeed anyhow. Even a 'fail' wouldn't have mattered at the slightest.
It is moments like that which as GM let me reconsider if I want to GM. It my view not everything should be about the build and a clever way to find loop holes. But others might thrive on that style of play. Just not me.
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Seriously, why can't I logically do these things at once?
It seems so weird that, because we all Follow the Expert ranger when he uses Avoid Notice that we're all suddenly stumbling into EVERY. SINGLE. TRAP.
Just doesn't make sense. Are we doing it wrong? Why on Golarion is there even such an immersion breaking arbitrary rule as "one exploration activity at a time?"
You can't until level 15 as a rogue (or with the rogue or pathfinder dedications, iirc), getting trapfinder and legendary sneak. My rogue currently has trap finder and just uses avoid notice as his exploration tactic. My GM isn't awful though and doesn't randomly throw us into ambushes.
Unfortunately, I don't have an answer to your questions. My guess is that it makes DMing way easier if if there is a soft cap of one activity so that every character isn't doing fifteen things (hyperbole) and can't just argue that they were doing other things as well.
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Why would you not be able to avoid notice and still make use of the trap finder feat starting at level 1? I don’t see why that requires legendary sneak.
Stupidly simple solution, just make the group bigger! Rules not scaling with group size is an issue in many games...
(obviously does not work with follow the expert, but on everything else)
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To me, this is all about running smooth explorations and involving everybody.
At first my players were lax in participating. I’d ask everybody what they were doing, somebody would say something, and most others would stand there waiting the result of that first character's actions.
Now, with more experience with the game, they’ve gotten into it and it is rare that anybody is doing nothing. One will be looting bodies, one will be Treating Wounds, one will be Refocusing, and one will be searching the room for any secrets. Then in the next 10 minute interval, maybe the cleric is treating somebody else's wounds while the rogue is investigating the door to the next room looking for traps, the Ranger is listening for activity nearby, etc.
I think if moving silently was important to the whole party, as a GM I would allow a 10 minute interval within which exploration activities made that clear. So if the standard “we are moving on” exploration routine is:
Seek
Defend
Move silently
Detect magic
...just as an example...
I would allow the seeking character enough information that the party can know “ok we don’t think there are traps, but there is a sleeping ogre in the next room, let's try to sneak past. Everybody follow the rogue's lead...”. They then all proceed to move quietly and follow the expert.
To me that feels better than narrating “well Bilbo notices a sleeping ogre, but wasnt explicitly trying to be sneaky, thorin had his shield up and a MUST have been noisy, Fili is a smart boy and was silent, but Gandalf was loud too, so the ogre knows you're there.”
The above paragraph feels a bit punitive to me, and removes player agency. As GM our job is to facilitate fun moments around the table. Maybe the above scene ends up in combat either way. But if the players have a chance to try sneaking (or whatever their plan is) it is more fun for all than it would be if the rules are used as a barrier to player agency.
As a counter point, though, I absolutely require players to be seeking if they want to have a chance to avoid traps. Not having a character seeking during exploration is just a blunder, plain and simple. One must always keep a lookout when in a dangerous place!
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Yes, because logically people can look for threats while also sneaking.
It was also possible in 1st edition. Having the limitation exist at all just seems, well, arbitrary and unnecessary.
It's not about getting my cake and eating it too, but about having the game's rules better represent cinematic reality and not breaking immersion for seemingly no reason.
Ultimately, I'm just trying to find the rationale behind it, as exploration mode is one of the few things about 2nd edition that feels really gamey and totally breaks immersion for our group.
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Yes, because logically people can look for threats while also sneaking.
It was also possible in 1st edition. Having the limitation exist at all just seems, well, arbitrary and unnecessary.
It's not about getting my cake and eating it too, but about having the game's rules better represent cinematic reality and not breaking immersion for seemingly no reason.
Ultimately, I'm just trying to find the rationale behind it, as exploration mode is one of the few things about 2nd edition that feels really gamey and totally breaks immersion for our group.
But you are looking for threats while sneaking. Its not like you don't notice them, you simply get a +1 initiative bonus when using the Scout option. Which specifically is described as moving ahead and behind the group (and presumably the left and right). If the group is striding forward, and you're using half speed stealth actions, its a bit harder to perform that circle of the party as often.
If you're spending your entire time in front of the party, that +1 doesn't make much sense when the enemies come from behind or to the right.
You could of course, ask them to move slower so you can actually make that kind of loop while stealthed. Which is exactly the kind of thing beowolf99 describes. I personally consider the Scout action to be Stride (move around the party) + Stride (move forward).
Assuming 2 sneaks = 1 stride, an avoid notice scout would end up being something like:
Round 1: Sneak + Sneak (equivalent to the first Stride)
Round 2: Sneak (standard avoid notice action)
So 2 rounds, with only 1 round of forward motion, at 1/2 speed results in 1/4 speed.
So talk it over with your GM.
As for in world rationale, a +1 circumstance bonus doesn't necessarily mean no attention, it means you're not giving it 100%. Legendary stealth characters have stealth as second nature, they don't need to think about it anymore, but everyone else still needs to actually look at how the shadows fall on themselves every so often instead of looking to the horizon.
Although I do have one in world question. If you're ranging in front of and behind the party while stealthed, how are you communicating the sudden presence of enemies from your stealthed state to your allies in all cases on a split second timescale?
Presumably you want to be stealthed from enemies on the opposite side of your party, which means in some cases being stealthed from your party. Do you yell, breaking your own undetected condition?
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Source Core Rulebook pg. 520
"...During exploration, determine whether the party detects a hazard when the PCs first enter the general area If the hazard doesn’t list a minimum proficiency rank, roll a secret Perception check against the hazard’s Stealth DC for each PC. For hazards with a minimum proficiency rank, roll only if someone is actively searching (using the Search activity while exploring or the Seek action in an encounter), and only if they have the listed proficiency rank or higher. Anyone who succeeds becomes aware of the hazard, and you can describe what they notice."
This may be a side point but it seems like even if all they are doing is avoiding notice or following the expert they can still detect some traps. Just not those with a proficiency requirement. This may have been hyperbole but if they are running into every single trap even those without a listed proficiency you may be doing things different than how the rules intended.
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Actually actively searching a location while moving stealthily should be a difficult thing to do at the same time. A skill feat for sure, but if you are talking immersion breaking it is more immersion breaking to think otherwise. :p
Scout despite its name is about providing warning for party members that gives a small initiative bonus.
Not just seeing someone.
Amusingly the exploration rules were made to help with immersion breaking activities like
"I constantly cast detect magic, sneak, raise a shield, give reports with message, search for traps and make an attack against the first entity who looks hostile or threatening to me"
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So thinking about this a little more, Scouting and Searching being mutaully exclusive does make a certain amount of sense in the context of how most adventures work. Consider that in broad daylight you're usually traveling overland, at which point you don't tend to utilize any of these tactis that reduce your speed. Usually when you start employing them you're in a dungeon, often with limited lighting. In this context, consider that spotting traps in the dark is impossible for some characters and difficult in dim light. Even a character with darkvision only sees in black and white, which makes picking out minor inconsistencies in the environment harder. So if you're able to properly see your environment, there's a good chance you are waving a light source around and thus can't really Avoid Notice. (Yes, I know this isn't true for all characters. An all dark vision party would only have the limitation of seeing in black and white, which mechanically doesn't have any sort of penalty anyway. But some of this stuff can just be abstracted out as simplifications, I reckon.)
It can also be difficult to split your focus between them, even setting aside the lighting issue. Avoiding Notice means you're diving between cover and generally taking pains to not get caught out in the open. If you're trying to minimize time out in the open, it is hard to take the time to study what is around the next pillar you're jumping behind.
Scouting and Searching, though, I totally get those two being mutually exclusive. It is a matter of where you are putting your attention. Searching means you're basically staring at your feet-- you are looking at the area IMMEDIATELY around you. Scouting you are focused on the area around you more broadly for movement. And it isn't like when you are searching you are completely unaware of movement in your surroundings, but not getting a +1 bonus to initiative checks is probably pretty generous when you actually think about where your attention is.
I'd say the weirdest non-combo is Avoiding Notice and Scouting, because a big party of being sneaky is awareness of other creatures around you. But even then, if you're trying to avoid line of sight, that does cut both ways. If you're cutting off someone's ability to see you, you're also hurting your ability to see them.
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Personally I like it a lot.
It makes sense that if you are carefully searching for traps you can not also be actively searching the treeline for archers at the same time without going very very slow.
The party needs to divide the tasks between them.
I for one salute the fact that now a trap or ambush can actually go off once in a while, instead of having 6 people roll every time, one of whom is guaranteed to succeed.
Good points, Captain Morgan.
And it gives the rogue a way to really define a strong niche space for themselves starting at level 1.
To each their own. I feel that applying the speed penalties is enough offset to allow a character to both Scout and Avoid Notice and all that. Basically showing that the character is splitting more and more of their time between moving and performing the various tasks required.
After all, a Scout isn't very useful if they are just blindly walking down the road, not attempting to conceal their location in most situations. That tends to lead to a dead scout, and really prevents a rogue from performing one of their most iconic jobs: Sneaking ahead to scout.
I can see how limiting exploration activities to one can make sense. I just don't find that it makes sense to me.
To each their own. I feel that applying the speed penalties is enough offset to allow a character to both Scout and Avoid Notice and all that. Basically showing that the character is splitting more and more of their time between moving and performing the various tasks required.
After all, a Scout isn't very useful if they are just blindly walking down the road, not attempting to conceal their location in most situations. That tends to lead to a dead scout, and really prevents a rogue from performing one of their most iconic jobs: Sneaking ahead to scout.
I can see how limiting exploration activities to one can make sense. I just don't find that it makes sense to me.
The iconic rogue would have Trap Finder though, which basically solves this issue. It does make scouting ahead (not the Scouting activity) harder for other characters, but iconic rogue is a bad example.
The iconic rogue would have Trap Finder though, which basically solves this issue. It does make scouting ahead (not the Scouting activity) harder for other characters, but iconic rogue is a bad example.To each their own. I feel that applying the speed penalties is enough offset to allow a character to both Scout and Avoid Notice and all that. Basically showing that the character is splitting more and more of their time between moving and performing the various tasks required.
After all, a Scout isn't very useful if they are just blindly walking down the road, not attempting to conceal their location in most situations. That tends to lead to a dead scout, and really prevents a rogue from performing one of their most iconic jobs: Sneaking ahead to scout.
I can see how limiting exploration activities to one can make sense. I just don't find that it makes sense to me.
Still can't "Scout" and Avoid notice at the same time. You may be able to detect traps automatically, but that doesn't solve the whole issue.
You could argue that at 4th level the Rogue would gain access to Scout's Warning, but that stipulates that you are rolling a Perception or Survival Check for Initiative, not Stealth, so you can't avoid notice and benefit from Scout's Warning.
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The iconic rogue would have Trap Finder though, which basically solves this issue. It does make scouting ahead (not the Scouting activity) harder for other characters, but iconic rogue is a bad example.To each their own. I feel that applying the speed penalties is enough offset to allow a character to both Scout and Avoid Notice and all that. Basically showing that the character is splitting more and more of their time between moving and performing the various tasks required.
After all, a Scout isn't very useful if they are just blindly walking down the road, not attempting to conceal their location in most situations. That tends to lead to a dead scout, and really prevents a rogue from performing one of their most iconic jobs: Sneaking ahead to scout.
I can see how limiting exploration activities to one can make sense. I just don't find that it makes sense to me.
Still can't "Scout" and Avoid notice at the same time. You may be able to detect traps automatically, but that doesn't solve the whole issue.
You could argue that at 4th level the Rogue would gain access to Scout's Warning, but that stipulates that you are rolling a Perception or Survival Check for Initiative, not Stealth, so you can't avoid notice and benefit from Scout's Warning.
Yes, but scouting as in going ahead of the group to report back is very different from Scouting as a named PF2 exploration activity. It is pointless to compare the two. Scouting, in the classical sense, is just Avoiding Notice while your group stays behind. Nothing stops a rogue from doing that.
Scouting the PF2 tactic has no iconic equivalent practice.
I disagree. Sending a Rogue ahead to survey the coming battlefield absolutely resulted in essentially the benefit of scouting in PF2: You gain an advantage at the start of Combat.
You would normally get the benefit of a Surprise Round by having a stealthy rogue happen upon the enemies first. This is the equivalent of an Initiative Bonus in PF2.
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Ranger and Rogue can Scout as a free action.
...
To be fair though, I agree the batter could have used more time in the oven:
If number of tactics employed and proficiency rank were inputs to a system where outputs were distributed as reduction to speed, accuracy, and/or stamina - with the character selecting which penalty they were willing to take - that would be definitely more fiddly, but perhaps more "realistic" and more connected to character choice.
Hmm...
Ranger and Rogue can Scout as a free action.
...
To be fair though, I agree the batter could have used more time in the oven:
If number of tactics employed and proficiency rank were inputs to a system where outputs were distributed as reduction to speed, accuracy, and/or stamina - with the character selecting which penalty they were willing to take - that would be definitely more fiddly, but perhaps more "realistic" and more connected to character choice.
Hmm...
As I said before though, Scout's Warning specifies that you use a Perception or Survival check for Initiative, not Stealth. So you couldn't use Avoid Notice and benefit from Scout's Warning.
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And it gives the rogue a way to really define a strong niche space for themselves starting at level 1.
That's one of the things I don't like about this. Niche protection is bad.
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I disagree. Sending a Rogue ahead to survey the coming battlefield absolutely resulted in essentially the benefit of scouting in PF2: You gain an advantage at the start of Combat.
You would normally get the benefit of a Surprise Round by having a stealthy rogue happen upon the enemies first. This is the equivalent of an Initiative Bonus in PF2.
That's like saying apples and oranges are the same thing: fruit. It is nonsense. Someone acting as a scout doesn't immediately attack the first thing they come across. They note the enemy and report back so that the party can make a plan and prebuff.
Also, Avoid Notice already provides the PF2 equivalent of a surprise round: going first and starting the combat undetected.
Look, I get that you don't like it, and that's fine. I even get why and don't inherently disagree. But you're making really awful analogies to illustrate it.
Thank you for yet another valuable contribution to the conversation, Zapp. We all surely can learn much from your wisdom.
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I think it has to do with focus. If the player is trying to "Follow the Expert" they are focused on that expert and trying to do exactly what they do to gain skills they do not have. To me this make sense to me.
I do not have an issue with it personally and will play RAW. But play your game as you see fit.
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Thank you for yet another valuable contribution to the conversation, Zapp. We all surely can learn much from your wisdom.
It's a pretty succinct way of saying what needs to be said.
The game intentionally makes it hard for characters to solo mission. Anything that allows a character to do everything gets nerfed.
Is it real life realistic that a street urchin and a noble start with the same gold? No. Is it game realistic? Yes.
Is it real life realistic that it takes two seconds to remember a monster you've seen before? No. Is it game realistic? yes.
If you want to walk down the corridor while holding up a shield, casting detect magic, sneaking, searching for traps, while looking around thoroughly, slowing down to 1/8 speed seems reasonable. But the reason that you're not allowed to do it at full speed by default is that it is a game.
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Seriously, why can't I logically do these things at once?
For me, the main reason is that it slows the pace of the game too much and that it trivializes some challenges.
What is the point of a trap if all characters have a Perception check?And from my PF1 experience, when everyone can do everything, the pace of the game is far slower than in PF2. In PF2, everyone chooses one Exploration Activity, and the DM can roll over the dungeon at light speed. A dungeon with 20 rooms and one monster takes as much time to go through than a dungeon with 1 room.
I'm a great fan of Exploration Mode. I really find that it adds strategical thinking to the party about how they organize themselves while exploring, it makes the game faster, focusing on what is important instead on focusing on useless dice rolls.
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Thank you for yet another valuable contribution to the conversation, Zapp. We all surely can learn much from your wisdom.
I mean in this case he's correct, it's a game not a simulation.
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Yes, because logically people can look for threats while also sneaking.
It was also possible in 1st edition. Having the limitation exist at all just seems, well, arbitrary and unnecessary.
It's not about getting my cake and eating it too, but about having the game's rules better represent cinematic reality and not breaking immersion for seemingly no reason.
Ultimately, I'm just trying to find the rationale behind it, as exploration mode is one of the few things about 2nd edition that feels really gamey and totally breaks immersion for our group.
The guy who is standing up spending all of his energy trying to look out for threats has a better chance of spotting a threat than the guy crouched behind a rock.
Generally when trying to sneak, anytime where you improve your ability to see them means exposing yourself more to the possibility of them seeing you (for example, if you stick your head up to be able to see over the rock you are hiding behind, you expose your head to potential detection)
People can look for threats while sneaking, they just don't get the same bonus that someone who is solely devoted to looking for threats does.
It is also pretty necessary in my book. Having to choose one thing to focus on cuts down on the unrealistic scenario that tends to happen in ttrpgs where people somehow manage to walk for an hour on 100% alert while also navigating and sneaking and checking for traps while also holding a conversation - most people just can't sustain that in real life. Additionally, it cuts down on everyone rolling the same check whenever something pops up (if only one person is keeping lookout, there is a chance of them failing, if 5 people all make rolls to do the same thing, there is very little chance of failure, to the point where you may as well just give them an automatic success).
If you want to walk down the corridor while holding up a shield, casting detect magic, sneaking, searching for traps, while looking around thoroughly, slowing down to 1/8 speed seems reasonable. But the reason that you're not allowed to do it at full speed by default is that it is a game.
Every other one of your examples makes a clear distinction between what is realistic in our world and what is realistic in the game world, except this one. It isn’t realistic to do all of that in the real world while covering 25-30 feet of distance every six seconds.
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I'm not really happy with the exploration system either. I mean, I like the idea in principle. Expand the "standard marching order" concept with "what are you typically doing while marching". And I definitely like having a tool to regulate how many things people can effectively do at once, and what the effect is on speed.
But the actual execution of the idea, I'm less happy about;
* Investigate seems to be a bit of a dead tactic. I've never really seen it work as an ongoing "we're doing this as we walk along" thing. If there's something particularly interesting in the room, the party stops and everyone investigates it. Part of the problem is also that because Recall Knowledge skills are spread over Wisdom and Intelligence, you'd need multiple people to really use this if you want rolling investigation as you travel. But large areas that you travel through don't yield anything all that interesting. Meanwhile, Search can save your life.
* Scout faces competition from class abilities that seem to make it unnecessary.
* Avoid Notice needs a bit more explanation on what happens if the whole group is doing it, because it seems to imply that the encounter happens anyway even if the whole group avoids being notices. We had a long thread about this recently.
* Search is just too damn important. Most of the time anyone who doesn't have to do something else defaults to Search.
* Trapfinding doesn't work well enough The idea is that rogues want to be doing Avoid Notice but to prevent walking into traps they take Trapfinding as a feat. However, it only works on traps, not on natural hazards or haunts. (Yeah, unless they don't require trained Perception. But too many of them do.) And it doesn't give the rogue a chance to find secret doors or treasure either. So the rogue can't really do his job that way.
I don't think the all or nothing setup of Search really works. It's too dominant.
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I've observed some of those same issues, Ascalaphus.
Our group has so far fallen into:
Fighter raises shield
Cleric detects magic
Monk avoids notice
Ranger scouts
The result?
Traps eat us alive.
Fighter is often hit anyways.
We never find the crucial clue.
Enemies regularly ambush us despite our scout.
Monk never gets the drop on anybody because the rest of the party doesn't even bother.
None of it makes sense and it completely kills immersion for us.
The more I think about exploration mode, the less it makes sense as anything other than a poorly designed game mechanic that does a piss poor job of emulating the situations it describes.
But hey, it is faster.
I disagree. Sending a Rogue ahead to survey the coming battlefield absolutely resulted in essentially the benefit of scouting in PF2: You gain an advantage at the start of Combat.
You would normally get the benefit of a Surprise Round by having a stealthy rogue happen upon the enemies first. This is the equivalent of an Initiative Bonus in PF2.
That's like saying apples and oranges are the same thing: fruit. It is nonsense. Someone acting as a scout doesn't immediately attack the first thing they come across. They note the enemy and report back so that the party can make a plan and prebuff.
Also, Avoid Notice already provides the PF2 equivalent of a surprise round: going first and starting the combat undetected.
Look, I get that you don't like it, and that's fine. I even get why and don't inherently disagree. But you're making really awful analogies to illustrate it.
When did I say that a rogue avoiding notice should attack the first thing they find? How would a character in PF2 using Scout "report back" without using Avoid Notice? Instead they blunder down the road in plain view and barely have the chance to tell back to the party.
An awful analogy is trying to discredit something someone said by, falsely, claiming they are over generalizing. I expected better from you, Cap.
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None of it makes sense and it completely kills immersion for us.
I mean I sort of get where you're coming from but you have a fighter walking around holding a shield in front of their face and doing nothing all the time and a monk who's quietly sneaking around while apparently standing right next to that same fighter.
That gives me kind of vaguely Monty Python vibes. I don't really think exploration mode is perfect either but it seems like you're really going out of your way to set up this immersion break for yourselves...
editted to fix an error.
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I've observed some of those same issues, Ascalaphus.
Our group has so far fallen into:
Fighter raises shield
Cleric detects magic
Monk avoids notice
Ranger scoutsThe result?
Traps eat us alive.
Fighter is often hit anyways.
We never find the crucial clue.
Enemies regularly ambush us despite our scout.
Monk never gets the drop on anybody because the rest of the party doesn't even bother.None of it makes sense and it completely kills immersion for us.
Fighter Raising Shield is one thing only he can benefit from at the cost of an action that could be benefiting the group
Shouldn't Cleric detecting magic help detect some magical traps? Or he may be able to specify this as an Improvised Exploration Activity?
Monk Avoiding Notice by himself is another thing that helps him at the cost of an action that could be helping the group. Also shouldn't he still potentially get the benefit of starting combat undetected?
If the Ranger's Scouting isn't giving you benefit maybe that person would be better off Seeking Traps especially if traps are eating you alive
This doesn't directly answer any of your concerns from a rules standpoint of "why can't we do more" but it seems to me that the issues your group is experiencing are avoidable with a change in strategy.
None of it makes sense and it completely kills immersion for us.I mean I sort of get where you're coming from but you have a fighter walking around holding a shield in front of their face and doing nothing all the time and a monk who's quietly sneaking around while apparently standing right next to that same fighter.
That gives me kind of vaguely Monty Python vibes. You're really setting yourself up for the immersion break there...
Raise Shield isn't even an exploration activity.
Oh yeah, fair.
Doesn't change my point about it being kind of a strange combination of default actions.
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The impression I get from various snippets here and there is that Exploration Tactics semi-assume you're not precisely positioned on the grid. As in, the Scout role says you're constantly moving around the party, and Avoid Notice has you sort of skulking to the side. Defend and Search tend to put you near the front. So it also carries some implications of a marching order.
So if a fight breaks out for Ravingdork's party, I would put the monk on the map a bit to the side of the fighter, hiding behind a rock or something. If his Avoid Notice roll is good enough, at the start of combat enemies will be looking at the party and won't know yet that there's also a monk in the game.
If you are moving precisely on the grid, you should probably move your mini in accord with the flavor of your tactic, and it'll work better.
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The impression I get from various snippets here and there is that Exploration Tactics semi-assume you're not precisely positioned on the grid. As in, the Scout role says you're constantly moving around the party, and Avoid Notice has you sort of skulking to the side. Defend and Search tend to put you near the front. So it also carries some implications of a marching order.
So if a fight breaks out for Ravingdork's party, I would put the monk on the map a bit to the side of the fighter, hiding behind a rock or something. If his Avoid Notice roll is good enough, at the start of combat enemies will be looking at the party and won't know yet that there's also a monk in the game.
If you are moving precisely on the grid, you should probably move your mini in accord with the flavor of your tactic, and it'll work better.
"Character Placement
Source Core Rulebook pg. 499When calling for initiative for a combat encounter, you’ll need to decide where the participants in the encounter go on the battle map. Use the party’s order, described on page 497, as a base. You can move forward characters who are using Stealth to get into position, putting them in a place they could reasonably have moved up to before having a chance to be detected. Consult with each player to make sure their position makes sense to both of you."
I agree with your interpretation on that and furthermore it seems to be directly supported by the CRB.
Doesn't change my point about it being kind of a strange combination of default actions.
Seems fine to me:
Fighter raises shield: starts off with better ACCleric detects magic: if no one is finding traps it's something.
Monk avoids notice: he now uses stealth for initiative.
Ranger scouts: gets everyone a +1 initiative.
Mechanically, it seems fine [not the best] though I'd have the ranger Search and the cleric scout.
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I've observed some of those same issues, Ascalaphus.
Our group has so far fallen into:
Fighter raises shield
Cleric detects magic
Monk avoids notice
Ranger scoutsThe result?
Traps eat us alive.
Fighter is often hit anyways.
We never find the crucial clue.
Enemies regularly ambush us despite our scout.
Monk never gets the drop on anybody because the rest of the party doesn't even bother.
Let's unpack a bit.
Scout, while flavorful, is nowhere near as high a priority as search. Initiative is nice but a +1 doesn't compare to the on/off chance of even seeing traps coming at all. Also, although it sounds really logical for the ranger to be the Scout, mechanically, anyone can do it and everyone is equally good at it. But the ranger has a good Perception score that he's letting go to waste.
Detect Magic is actually fairly useful. While I haven't yet had any magic auras that I wish I hasn't walked into, it's been useful to find magical treasure. However, doing it as a full-on exploration tactic may be overkill, just doing a single ping on every area that you've had an encounter in, may be sufficient. Your cleric, with his Wisdom-powered Perception, could also be Searching.
Monks are surprisingly bad at Perception in 2E. They're only Trained and most monks don't put a priority on Wisdom. So Avoid Notice isn't the craziest idea, although Defend is also an option. Scout, even.
"Getting the drop with Avoid Notice" - what exactly were you hoping for? Total surprise of the enemy would require the entire party to be doing Avoid Notice/Follow the Expert, but in a trap-filled area, that's simply not an option. Not in this game system. The best you can get is having enemies not spot you at first, which could net you an attack against flat-footed early on. Or perhaps a chance to maneuver around the battlefield, avoid the goons, and grab the enemy wizard by his collar. But the main beneficiaries of Avoid Notice are really just rogues, who use it to trigger Surprise Attack, and who can use Trapfinder to suffer less from not being Searching.
Defend - well sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it turns a hit into a miss, sometimes it turns a crit into a regular hit. It improves the situation in 4/20 possible die results. That's not too bad.
But yeah, I'm finding it hard to come up with reasons why you wouldn't have three quarters of the party on Search all the time.
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Sorry if this comes across as "you're playing it wrong". It is, a bit, because you're sticking to flavorful options that are just painfully not in line with the design of the system.
As you can see, I don't like this part of the system.
It does seem like "Scout" and "Avoid Notice" have some overlap, since both involve "keep your eye out for signs of people" but differ in "how to proceed" when you actually spot somebody- one will note their numbers, position, trajectory, disposition" and the other will "put yourself somewhere where they can't see you (and by extension you can't see them)."
It does seem like there should be a skill feat for combining the two somehow. There's a lot of design space for skill feats that require training in two skills, after all. Give me a skill feat that requires expertise in Survival and Stealth that combines Scout and Avoid Notice, or something.
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Beowulf: if I'm falsely discrediting your point, then I'm failing to understand it. Can you explain it again? Because I cannot understand why you are treating the "Scout" activity as anything similar to the classic idea of scouting ahead beyond the name being the same. Mechanically they are worlds apart.
I've observed some of those same issues, Ascalaphus.
Our group has so far fallen into:
Fighter raises shield
Cleric detects magic
Monk avoids notice
Ranger scoutsThe result?
Traps eat us alive.
Fighter is often hit anyways.
We never find the crucial clue.
Enemies regularly ambush us despite our scout.
Monk never gets the drop on anybody because the rest of the party doesn't even bother.None of it makes sense and it completely kills immersion for us.
The more I think about exploration mode, the less it makes sense as anything other than a poorly designed game mechanic that does a piss poor job of emulating the situations it describes.
But hey, it is faster.
So some of this feels like your group (GM included) isn't really understanding what the tactics DO.
On the GM side, the monk should be able to start the combat unnoticed even if the rest of the party is spotted. If they are using the tactic, they roll stealth for initiative and if they beat the enemy perception DC, they aren't noticed. (Taking advantage of it may be hard for a melee character though. I'd recommend getting that rogue dedication eventually.)
The Scout activity does nothing to prevent an ambush. It just gives the party a circumstance bonus on initiative. That's all. They probably should have called it look out duty of something, because it has nothing to do with what we traditionally think of as scouting.
If you actually want to be able to get the drop on someone properly, you should not be traveling as a group. You should be having your sneaky character(s) travel ahead of the group Avoiding Notice, stopping when they find someone, and then doubling back to report to the group. This works pretty much exactly as it has always worked in D&D. You hope you roll stealth high enough to not get spotted. You risk being separated from your group when initiative is rolled in order to get a chance to plan an attack and prebuff.
Your Ranger should really be searching if no one else with expert perception is, because that +1 bonus isn't worth walking into a trap. If they get the Scout's Warning feat, it actually does nothing because the circumstance bonus doesn't stack between the feat and the activity.
Also... Is this your Age of Ashes game? Because there shouldn't be enough traps there for this to be as big an issue as you make of it.
That being said, I agree with Ascalaphus on Investigate. That tactic probably shouldn't have been printed. I could see the concept working in a social setting, putting your focus on studying the people around you, but I don't understand it while traveling anywhere. Maybe rename it "people watching."
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Honestly, the more I think about it the more I think a lot of this would be solved by just changing the names of the activities and maybe tweaking the descriptions a big, because that seems to be messing with people's expectations.