The wiki doesn't say. Did he just do it to be evil or was there a reason for it? Also, does he have feelings for her (in a rather messed up way) or just regard her as another servitor?
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I've been thinking about this a lot recently.
He made her a lich to prove a point to the knights of Ozem, specifically sending the message that he can and will destroy whoever he pleases if they interfere with his brooding affairs. From a continent away he managed to break into one of their most secure holy sites, steal the corpse of their heroine demigoddess, bind the soul of said demigoddess to the corpse, and subjugate her into becoming their enemy and his ally. Without once needing to leave his empire of undeath. Basically saying, unequivocally, that the Knights of Ozem cannot handle Geb so they should just get lost. They cannot keep him out, they cannot stop his will or whim, and he doesn't even need to show up himself to discipline them.
As for feelings, I assume basically all of the feelings Geb has left in him are anger, sadness, and a thirst for revenge. He's probably sad to see her gone, both in the sense that he lost a useful ruler and has to do his own governing now and in the sense that he lost (someone he perceived as) a toy. Angry and thirsting for revenge too, because someone defied him and his fragile ego cannot handle that. I don't intend to run Geb as having romantic feelings for Arazni. He could, but I think it is just as plausible that he doesn't.
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I do not think he has not much emotion left regarding anything not related to Nex. Arazni was just a mean to the end of showing the Knights how outclassed they are.
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Yeah, resurrecting the corpse of the saint/demigoddess that your enemies knightly order is devoted to and turning her into a liche is a pretty good way to demoralize your enemies and break their will and their faith. They now have to fight someone who they revere who you have defiled and turned into a horrible monster.
Like, picture if you where a member of a holy christian order in the real world, then suddenly the corpse of Jesus is resurrected, but he is shouting blasphemies at you and trying to murder you and everyone you love. It would probably be pretty devastating to your faith and general morale.
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Stealing Arazni's body and turning her into a lich was a punitive action on Geb's part against the Knights of Ozem who dared to challenge his power. Not only did he transform the failed knights into powerful undead servants, he had them steal her body and bring her to him so he could raise her as a lich in a huge symbol of "screw you!" to the knights.
It really is up there on par with what Tar-Baphon did to her in the first place (killing a demigod) in the annals of cool stuff that bad guys did.
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And while "Challenge his power" is a technically accurate way to describe it, it's a bit of an understatement.
They sent a squad of elite knights to assassinate him.
He'd been king for a few thousand years at that point, had survived - and kinda sorta beaten - Nex, his only worthy rival : the man was not about to let a bunch of upstarts from another continent get ideas and think they could get away with it. It worked too, they never really bothered him again.
He's always been content to stay in and tend to his country, or delegate that latter part once he got his queen, but he does not tolerate intruders.
That's the guy who would later go on to petrify an entire army of wannabe ghostbusters, for the same reason : there's a message here, and it's "don't mess with Geb".
So yeah , the theft and lichifying of Arazni was a lesson to the Knights of Ozem when they were at their strongest and cockyest, and through them the world.
Who could stop him, if they failed ? They'd defeated the Whispering Tyrant! Better to leave him be, or else.
That she was so powerful herself made her worthy of the Queen title, but I'd expect that was just a bonus.
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Plus, it was mentioned that the Knights of Ozem had attempted to infiltrate Geb (the nation) with the hopes of freeing the people who get eaten/destroying the nation ruled by the undead. Problem is, paladins tend not to make good infiltrators, so when Geb (the ghost) found out who they were, what they were doing, and why, he immediately went to the worst retaliation he could do.
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Geb is a monstrously powerful character, and I would dare to say he is more powerful than The Tyrant himself.
Geb is Nex rival, and Nex himself was powerful enough to bind demigods to his will (I suspect the shadow creature used in his siege against Absalom was not only related to an Eldest, but was actually the Eldest).
The mortal people of Golarion are lucky that he - like Baba Yaga - is far more interested in their own agendas, for turning a demigoddess into an undead was just a "punishment" for insulting him, an act to discipline the "young" knights.
I'm still hoping for a Setting Book covering Nex and Geb, finally fully illustrating Nex and Geb themselves.
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I'm still hoping for a Setting Book covering Nex and Geb, finally fully illustrating Nex and Geb themselves.
While not a fullbody illustration, Geb does have an illustration in The Inner Sea World Guide (p.75) -- & in Inner Sea Magic !
However, a book (or AP?) on Geb & Nex (& perhaps Arazni, too!?) could be interesting!
Carry on,
--C.
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Geb is a monstrously powerful character, and I would dare to say he is more powerful than The Tyrant himself.
This is pretty unambiguously true. Arazni is CR 26, as is the Tyrant. She's a fair fight for the Whispering Tyrant, and shows no real reluctance to fight or trick him (even though he killed her).
Meanwhile, at no point during her long slavery did she even consider confronting Geb directly he's that much more powerful than her.
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I'm still hoping for a Setting Book covering Nex and Geb, finally fully illustrating Nex and Geb themselves.While not a fullbody illustration, Geb does have an illustration in The Inner Sea World Guide (p.75) -- & in Inner Sea Magic !
However, a book (or AP?) on Geb & Nex (& perhaps Arazni, too!?) could be interesting!
Carry on,
--C.
Both have illustrations in the Lost Omens World Guide. Still only the head though.
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I'd agree with the general assessment here - it was a deterrent. He proved that going after Geb would be ten times worse for the aggressor than for himself.
I don't think it's impossible Geb is the most powerful active individual on Golarion. Tar-Baphon is a much larger threat to the world at large, and if he completes his goals he may very well ascend to become one of the true top dogs. Geb is already up there.
Both have illustrations in the Lost Omens World Guide. Still only the head though....
I'm still hoping for a Setting Book covering Nex and Geb, finally fully illustrating Nex and Geb themselves.While not a fullbody illustration, Geb does have an illustration in The Inner Sea World Guide (p.75) -- & in Inner Sea Magic !
Awesome!
Thanks.
Carry on,
--C.
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Not sure that the bolded is implied. She can't fight Geb (and the GraveKnights of the council Libertine) due to "mental conditioning" (see the Council Libertine sidebar in AP 142 ); the conditioning might have been added during the process of "lich-ification".
Frankly, being able to mentally condition a literal deity like this (even during such a process) implies even more power than I was already assuming, if anything.
Every last indication we have is that Geb is an utterly terrifying creature.
Geb is a monstrously powerful character, and I would dare to say he is more powerful than The Tyrant himself.This is pretty unambiguously true. Arazni is CR 26, as is the Tyrant. She's a fair fight for the Whispering Tyrant, and shows no real reluctance to fight or trick him (even though he killed her).
Meanwhile, at no point during her long slavery did she even consider confronting Geb directly he's that much more powerful than her.
I their CRs mentioned often when either comes up. Is there more context? Because my understanding is that in the lore Arazni as a Lich was much weaker than she was as Aroden's Herald, and Tar-Baphon didn't just defeat her but performed a humiliating one-sided curbstomp when she was a Herald.
So Tar-Baphon is only just as strong as the inferior version of a foe he defeated utterly?
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I their CRs mentioned often when either comes up. Is there more context? Because my understanding is that in the lore Arazni as a Lich was much weaker than she was as Aroden's Herald, and Tar-Baphon didn't just defeat her but performed a humiliating one-sided curbstomp when she was a Herald.
So Tar-Baphon is only just as strong as the inferior version of a foe he defeated utterly?
I don't think we have any evidence she's weaker as a Lich than she was before. Indeed, evidence seems good that it added the standard +2 CR.
That being the case, even assuming she hasn't gained any levels since getting wrecked by Tar-Baphon their original fight would've been him at CR 26 and her at CR 24. Him defeating her pretty easily at that point sounds about right.
Question is Tar-Baphon and Geb friends, enemies, or neither?
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I don't think Tar Baphon and Geb have ever met, but if they did they would be rivals more than anything IMO. Both have operate in similar niches, armies of undeath, empires of power, to toe to toe with demideities and win, rule as dictators and tyrants, etc. If they met they would probably be enemies. We know Geb doesn't handle rivalries well, and is prone to committing atrocities when someone injures his ego. I'm not as familiar with the Whispering Tyrant lore, but he doesn't strike me as someone happy to having rivals either.
As an afterthought, Geb is probably displeased with the whispering tyrant knowing he is associated with Arazni's escape. Not enough to wage war, Geb has enjoyed peace for a long time, but still enough to sour any interaction. He'd been enjoying an 800 year vacation from being an active dictator, and now because some creep from the north couldn't handle adventurers coming in he lost his surrogate ruler and has to do his job.
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I their CRs mentioned often when either comes up. Is there more context? Because my understanding is that in the lore Arazni as a Lich was much weaker than she was as Aroden's Herald, and Tar-Baphon didn't just defeat her but performed a humiliating one-sided curbstomp when she was a Herald.
So Tar-Baphon is only just as strong as the inferior version of a foe he defeated utterly?
I don't think we have any evidence she's weaker as a Lich than she was before. Indeed, evidence seems good that it added the standard +2 CR.
That being the case, even assuming she hasn't gained any levels since getting wrecked by Tar-Baphon their original fight would've been him at CR 26 and her at CR 24. Him defeating her pretty easily at that point sounds about right.
When Arazni faced Tar-Baphon she had the powers of the Herald of Aroden, when Geb reanimated her Iomedae held that mantle, so I think a solid case can be made for Arazni to be on-level with Tar Baphon, and lichdom brought her powers on-par with heraldry. Which would imply her humiliating defeat was because of some tactical misstep or sheer poor fortune, rather than Tar-Baphon being noticeably stronger than her.
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The thing that's nuts isn't Geb's brainwashing of Arzani given enough time anyone will break/roll a 1 on their will save. It's that he was able to snatch a soul that had been in the afterlife for centuries against its will to subject it to said brainwashing in the first place.
My understanding is that souls are vulnerable as they travel the astral plane to the Boneyard and need to be protected by Psychopomps from things like Night Hags. But once they reach the Boneyard they're under Pharasma's jurisdiction and spells like Ressurection don't work unless she allows it. Then after she judges the soul and sends it on to the appropriate divine realm the god of that realm takes jurisdiction and again nothing can happen to that soul unless the god allows it.
I'm unfamiliar with the exact timing of Geb's stealing of Arzani's soul. I could see there being a narrow window of chaos just after Aroden's death and before Ioemdae took control of his realm where the souls in it could be vulnerable. But if he did it before Aroden died or after Iomedae settled into her role as the Inheritor it means he somehow defied the power of a major deity and overcame the defenses of a divine realm. That's an act that has major implications for the setting's entire cosmology. Honestly, it should have been treated as a much bigger deal than it appears to have been. If Geb can take a soul from Aroden/Ioemdae that means he can take any soul from any plane he wants. I don't see any of the deities of any alignment taking that revelation well.
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The thing that's nuts isn't Geb's brainwashing of Arzani given enough time anyone will break/roll a 1 on their will save. It's that he was able to snatch a soul that had been in the afterlife for centuries against its will to subject it to said brainwashing in the first place.
My understanding is that souls are vulnerable as they travel the astral plane to the Boneyard and need to be protected by Psychopomps from things like Night Hags. But once they reach the Boneyard they're under Pharasma's jurisdiction and spells like Ressurection don't work unless she allows it. Then after she judges the soul and sends it on to the appropriate divine realm the god of that realm takes jurisdiction and again nothing can happen to that soul unless the god allows it.
I'm unfamiliar with the exact timing of Geb's stealing of Arzani's soul. I could see there being a narrow window of chaos just after Aroden's death and before Ioemdae took control of his realm where the souls in it could be vulnerable. But if he did it before Aroden died or after Iomedae settled into her role as the Inheritor it means he somehow defied the power of a major deity and overcame the defenses of a divine realm. That's an act that has major implications for the setting's entire cosmology. Honestly, it should have been treated as a much bigger deal than it appears to have been. If Geb can take a soul from Aroden/Ioemdae that means he can take any soul from any plane he wants. I don't see any of the deities of any alignment taking that revelation well.
According to the wiki she died in 3827 and Geb reanimated her in 3890-91. About 6 decades. Aroden wouldn't die for several centuries, though he has lost a lot of interest in Golarion.
Honestly, everything about the process should be impossible within Golarion lore. Lichdom is incredibly delicate and hard to achieve, many fail and get consumed by the negative energy plane. If the would-be lich tries to sabotage the ritual it should fail even if the soul isn't remarkably powerful. And if the would-be lich has the willpower of a demigoddess known for stubbornness and persistence, it should not be possible to abduct her soul. And even if they weren't, stealing a soul from the afterlife should be impossible. Even if Geb had failed after succeeding at one of these things, he would be impossibly terryifying. He succeeded at all of them and more.
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As an afterthought, Geb is probably displeased with the whispering tyrant knowing he is associated with Arazni's escape. Not enough to wage war, Geb has enjoyed peace for a long time, but still enough to sour any interaction. He'd been enjoying an 800 year vacation from being an active dictator, and now because some creep from the north couldn't handle adventurers coming in he lost his surrogate ruler and has to do his job.
Another afterthought, Geb probably views the Whispering Tyrant with nontrivial disdain even without Arazni being freed. Tar-Baphon glorifies undeath, puts it up as a goal all should aspire to achieve. Geb, however, is imprisoned by undeath. He committed suicide trying to escape his paranoia and hatred and fear of Nex, and became a ghost utterly consumed by it and forced to simmer for millennia. The idea that this ghostly form of Geb's is a reward or goal to reach for is probably insulting. Mix in the failures on Tar-Baphon's record and Geb plausibly views the Whispering Tyrant as an arrogant upstart and foolish idealist who should not be trusted with the power he wields.
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The wiki doesn't say. Did he just do it to be evil or was there a reason for it? Also, does he have feelings for her (in a rather messed up way) or just regard her as another servitor?
Because he's an a$#$*++.
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Something else to consider. Even as a fallen deity, Arazni may have been revivable by some means. It's unknown where she was in the lines at the Boneyard-she wouldn't have been judged immediately necessarily. Pharasma operates on her own agenda in that regard, and souls fated to return to the world have their own place. But Geb, by finding a way to force lichdom on her, made sure resurrection was off the table unless she got destroyed again (if even then). So he showed off by shoving the soul of Aroden's deceased herald into an unliving form to ensure that even a god wasn't beyond his power. Nor could it be undone while she walked the world. We all know how hard it is to find lich phylacteries and destroy them....
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When Arazni faced Tar-Baphon she had the powers of the Herald of Aroden, when Geb reanimated her Iomedae held that mantle, so I think a solid case can be made for Arazni to be on-level with Tar Baphon, and lichdom brought her powers on-par with heraldry. Which would imply her humiliating defeat was because of some tactical misstep or sheer poor fortune, rather than Tar-Baphon being noticeably stronger than her.I their CRs mentioned often when either comes up. Is there more context? Because my understanding is that in the lore Arazni as a Lich was much weaker than she was as Aroden's Herald, and Tar-Baphon didn't just defeat her but performed a humiliating one-sided curbstomp when she was a Herald.
So Tar-Baphon is only just as strong as the inferior version of a foe he defeated utterly?
I don't think we have any evidence she's weaker as a Lich than she was before. Indeed, evidence seems good that it added the standard +2 CR.
That being the case, even assuming she hasn't gained any levels since getting wrecked by Tar-Baphon their original fight would've been him at CR 26 and her at CR 24. Him defeating her pretty easily at that point sounds about right.
If I remember correctly in the Adventure Path it was mentioned that part of the problem was that the knights summoned her and forced her to fight the Tyrant and that made her weaker.
That is one part why she is not very fond of the knights to put it midly.
The irony is that they could have asked and she would gladly helped them but the knights being what they are thought not like this.
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Doubt TB thinks highly of Geb. Geb spent centuries mastering necromancy, but rather than becoming a much he committed suicide specifically trying to not exist forever. Goes against the Whispering Way the tyrant has models himself around. And that was after Geb won the war on Nex. If Tar-Baphon had banished Aroden in their battle he would have gone on to conquer Avistan, that Geb didn't do the same with Avistan must seem worthy of contempt. I imagine the Whispering Tyrant sees Geb as a burn out and tragic example of wasted potential.
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^ Well... Geb didn't technically win the war against Nex (IIRC).
Geb almost won (or was winning, depending on pov), but then Nex went a "ran away" from the fight, leaving Geb so despondent over being "robbed of his final victory over Nex" (by Nex), that he felt that it just wasn't worth carrying on without Nex & so "offed himself" (possibly in the hope of being "reunited" with Nex in the Great Beyond...).
& Once the two leaders disappeared, a ceasefire was called, so...
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You know, after reading the above paraphrase/summary of Geb's & Nex's conflict , I am very sure there are some parts of the Internet where there'd be those who'd absolutely ship the two of them. ^^'
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Carry on, I guess...
--C.
;p
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^ Well... Geb didn't technically win the war against Nex (IIRC).
Geb almost won (or was winning, depending on pov), but then Nex went a "ran away" from the fight, leaving Geb so despondent over being "robbed of his final victory over Nex" (by Nex), that he felt that it just wasn't worth carrying on without Nex & so "offed himself" (possibly in the hope of being "reunited" with Nex in the Great Beyond...).
& Once the two leaders disappeared, a ceasefire was called, so..
From Geb's perspective sure. And from the international politics perspective too. But the way TB would see it, IMO, is that Geb won. The only reason the war ended without Geb conquering the eastern seaboard was that Geb gave up, hence wasted potential. The nuance of the situation would be somewhat lost on him. It heavily depends on Geb's emotional state, and if Geb had just become undead before the final battle that emotional state would not be as influential. And to the Whispering Tyrant being alive when you could be undead is folly, so it doesn't matter to him. Neither would truly respect each other's situation and both would see the other as foolish because they are too wrapped up in their own viewpoints to look at it from the other's angle.
You know, after reading the above paraphrase/summary of Geb's & Nex's conflict (), I am very sure there are some parts of the Internet where there'd be those who'd absolutely ship the two of them. ^^'
LOWG hasn't changed the tone of the Nex-Geb relationship, still as romantic undertones despite ferocious rivalry and hatred and them being toxic influences on each other IMO. Though I think the wording in LOWG makes it more clear how the two were toxic influences on each other and goaded each other to new heights of terrible power.
It also reminds me of the Miracle of Sound's Joker's Song.
We are two of a kind
Violent, unsound of mind
You're the yin to my yang, can't you see?
And if I were to leave
You would grumble and grieve
Face it, Bats, you'd be lost without me!
The wiki doesn't say. Did he just do it to be evil or was there a reason for it? Also, does he have feelings for her (in a rather messed up way) or just regard her as another servitor?Because he's an a+!%!&%.
I think this is my favorite answer. I certainly hope now that he's back in 2E, he will get his at some point (as well as Nex returning).