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This is probably an intentional design choice, but it can leave the class feeling a little lacking as a solo act.
Aren't ALL the classes a bit lacking as solo acts? The game is designed such that party members have to support each other to succeed, on purpose.
Or are you saying that the Alchemist is even LESS effective when alone than the other casting classes are?
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The devs have said that they're still working on a number of things that won't be addressed in the errata document. Hopefully if the mentioned change to the Mutagenist is the only one, they're still looking at the Alchemist behind the scenes.That mutagenist change sounds a bit underwhelming. I mean it's better than nothing, but Mutagenist is already the most reagent efficient specialization by a solid margin. Where it's hurting is in its damage and survivability.
And while again, it's still better than nothing, it kind of undercuts the Mutagenist version of Quick Alchemy if you can just recycle your high level mutagens instead of having to worry about field brewing lower level versions.
I know I'm counting chickens here, but...
*IF* Mutagen Flashback works as described, the most generous reading could allow a mutagenist to create a batch of all of their highest level mutagens first thing in the morning (or at least those they suspect they will likely need), drink all of them and then negate the effects using the level 2 feat.
For the rest of the day, they could conceivably mutagen dance. Free action to enable a prior mutagen, 3 actions available. Two actions to switch mutagens mid-turn (consume old, quick alchemy new) down perhaps to one if you still haven't used your free action that turn.
We'll see tomorrow, but I hope and suspect the Flashback is a once per day ability only for a few rounds of effect at most. So if you just drank all your elixirs in the morning, you could belch 1 of them back up for a few rounds of effect and that's it.
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We'll see tomorrow, but I hope and suspect the Flashback is a once per day ability only for a few rounds of effect at most. So if you just drank all your elixirs in the morning, you could belch 1 of them back up for a few rounds of effect and that's it.
Honestly that'd be pretty terrible. 1/day would hardly even be noticable, given that the mutagen is easily the most resource efficient field. Personally I'd think 1/10 min would be balanced; enough to be able to frequently use and be fun, but doesn't allow for things like cycling out into a new mutagen every turn. That would also put it at about the same timetable as a focus power
We'll see tomorrow, but I hope and suspect the Flashback is a once per day ability only for a few rounds of effect at most. So if you just drank all your elixirs in the morning, you could belch 1 of them back up for a few rounds of effect and that's it.
From what I remember, they said on the stream that it lasts for a minute but did not specify how often it could be used.
I'd guess once per day, maybe scaling up by level or with a feat, kinda like drain bonded item.
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This is probably an intentional design choice, but it can leave the class feeling a little lacking as a solo act.Aren't ALL the classes a bit lacking as solo acts? The game is designed such that party members have to support each other to succeed, on purpose.
Or are you saying that the Alchemist is even LESS effective when alone than the other casting classes are?
"Solo act" is less the issue here than "DPR role". Nobody can fulfill every role at once at near maximum efficiency in PF2 (thank god) but the Alchemists are clearly intended to be able to run DPR builds, whether that be with bombs or mutagenic boosts.
Like, full casters can run evocation spells to be the DPR character in the party because they get legendary in casting. Surely Alchemists should get Master in bombs to stay on par with Rogues and such, yeah?
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This is probably an intentional design choice, but it can leave the class feeling a little lacking as a solo act.Aren't ALL the classes a bit lacking as solo acts? The game is designed such that party members have to support each other to succeed, on purpose.
Or are you saying that the Alchemist is even LESS effective when alone than the other casting classes are?
"Solo act" is less the issue here than "DPR role". Nobody can fulfill every role at once at near maximum efficiency in PF2 (thank god) but the Alchemists are clearly intended to be able to run DPR builds, whether that be with bombs or mutagenic boosts.
Like, full casters can run evocation spells to be the DPR character in the party because they get legendary in casting. Surely Alchemists should get Master in bombs to stay on par with Rogues and such, yeah?
Well, bombs get damage on a miss and have extra effects on a hit so I think the bomber is in an okay place mechanically. I have not made a total math breakdown comparing the two, though.
This is probably an intentional design choice, but it can leave the class feeling a little lacking as a solo act.Aren't ALL the classes a bit lacking as solo acts? The game is designed such that party members have to support each other to succeed, on purpose.
Or are you saying that the Alchemist is even LESS effective when alone than the other casting classes are?
Um. Alchemist is not a casting class.
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Um. Alchemist is not a casting class.This is probably an intentional design choice, but it can leave the class feeling a little lacking as a solo act.Aren't ALL the classes a bit lacking as solo acts? The game is designed such that party members have to support each other to succeed, on purpose.
Or are you saying that the Alchemist is even LESS effective when alone than the other casting classes are?
I would argue that alchemist is a casting class in the same way the psion is a casting class in 3.5 DnD. The alchemist is just interacting with a different magic system.
Well, bombs get damage on a miss and have extra effects on a hit so I think the bomber is in an okay place mechanically. I have not made a total math breakdown comparing the two, though.
You may be right on that, I'm not quite sure either (and people seem to be overall far less critical of the bomber). In that case Alchemists could likely get away with just master proficiency in simple/unarmed.
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I would argue that alchemist is a casting class in the same way the psion is a casting class in 3.5 DnD. The alchemist is just interacting with a different magic system.Um. Alchemist is not a casting class.This is probably an intentional design choice, but it can leave the class feeling a little lacking as a solo act.Aren't ALL the classes a bit lacking as solo acts? The game is designed such that party members have to support each other to succeed, on purpose.
Or are you saying that the Alchemist is even LESS effective when alone than the other casting classes are?
If the Alchemst is a casting class, its proficiencies don't really reflect that. You need multiple feats to get all your "spells" to scale with level and use your class DC, and you can't use your primary stat for attacks, on top of maxing out at expert proficiency for said attacks. It seems meant to be a jack-of-all-trades, but in a game that rewards specialization, it's mostly just a "master-of-none".
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Well, bombs get damage on a miss and have extra effects on a hit so I think the bomber is in an okay place mechanically. I have not made a total math breakdown comparing the two, though.You may be right on that, I'm not quite sure either (and people seem to be overall far less critical of the bomber). In that case Alchemists could likely get away with just master proficiency in simple/unarmed.
I think it may be a bit more elegant to just expand the Alchemists options for damage rather than giving them "full" attack bonus. The energy mutagen is a step in the right direction (and maybe even a fix by itself) since that would allow melee alchemists to quick-alchemy into fight-long weakness-targeting and extra damage. However, paizo published that mutagen with the uncommon-soft-ban (TM) so you can't really play that reliably.
More martial-focused mutagens and elixirs are the better fix, IMO.
If the Alchemst is a casting class, its proficiencies don't really reflect that. You need multiple feats to get all your "spells" to scale with level and use your class DC, and you can't use your primary stat for attacks, on top of maxing out at expert proficiency for said attacks. It seems meant to be a jack-of-all-trades, but in a game that rewards specialization, it's mostly just a "master-of-none".I would argue that alchemist is a casting class in the same way the psion is a casting class in 3.5 DnD. The alchemist is just interacting with a different magic system.Um. Alchemist is not a casting class.This is probably an intentional design choice, but it can leave the class feeling a little lacking as a solo act.Aren't ALL the classes a bit lacking as solo acts? The game is designed such that party members have to support each other to succeed, on purpose.
Or are you saying that the Alchemist is even LESS effective when alone than the other casting classes are?
I didn't say that the alchemist is in an amazing place balance-wise. However, I will say that it is my favorite class in the game though specifically because it is a casting class that uses a fundamentally different and interesting rules system.
I also think the class DC stuff is BS, btw.
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If the Alchemst is a casting class, its proficiencies don't really reflect that. You need multiple feats to get all your "spells" to scale with level and use your class DC, and you can't use your primary stat for attacks, on top of maxing out at expert proficiency for said attacks. It seems meant to be a jack-of-all-trades, but in a game that rewards specialization, it's mostly just a "master-of-none".I would argue that alchemist is a casting class in the same way the psion is a casting class in 3.5 DnD. The alchemist is just interacting with a different magic system.Um. Alchemist is not a casting class.This is probably an intentional design choice, but it can leave the class feeling a little lacking as a solo act.Aren't ALL the classes a bit lacking as solo acts? The game is designed such that party members have to support each other to succeed, on purpose.
Or are you saying that the Alchemist is even LESS effective when alone than the other casting classes are?
I didn't say that the alchemist is in an amazing place balance-wise. However, I will say that it is my favorite class in the game though specifically because it is a casting class that uses a fundamentally different and interesting rules system.
I also think the class DC stuff is BS, btw.
if he's supposed to be a "casting class" then i would really like to have a DC going up to legendary then, like, you know, casters.
That, and having my attacks being Int based and not dex/str based, again, like a caster.
Alchemist is nice thematically with what they're trying to do with him, but his main problem is that the consumables, in general, are deliberately designed to be really weak, and alchemist is designed around said consumables.
in effect that leads to having a good "weapon" with terrible "ammunition".
What alchemist...
Well, DCs don't matter for buffs and most of the alchemist's kit is buffs and stuff that goes off automatically. I think the alchemist could stand to have their class DC go to legendary, but I don't think it actually matters too much save for where it might help poisoners and other niche alchemical items.
And yeah: on-level alchemical items are weaker than on-level spells and they need to be since the alchemist gets to use a ton of them every day. Balance-wise, alchemical items need to be better than competing cantrips but still quite a bit weaker than on-level spells.
This probably should all be in an alchemist chat rather than a ACG chat though. -w-
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If the Alchemst is a casting class, its proficiencies don't really reflect that. You need multiple feats to get all your "spells" to scale with level and use your class DC, and you can't use your primary stat for attacks, on top of maxing out at expert proficiency for said attacks. It seems meant to be a jack-of-all-trades, but in a game that rewards specialization, it's mostly just a "master-of-none".I would argue that alchemist is a casting class in the same way the psion is a casting class in 3.5 DnD. The alchemist is just interacting with a different magic system.Um. Alchemist is not a casting class.This is probably an intentional design choice, but it can leave the class feeling a little lacking as a solo act.Aren't ALL the classes a bit lacking as solo acts? The game is designed such that party members have to support each other to succeed, on purpose.
Or are you saying that the Alchemist is even LESS effective when alone than the other casting classes are?
I didn't say that the alchemist is in an amazing place balance-wise. However, I will say that it is my favorite class in the game though specifically because it is a casting class that uses a fundamentally different and interesting rules system.
I also think the class DC stuff is BS, btw.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that I didn't think of the Alchemist as a "caster", I think it absolutely is a pseudo-caster, it's just that, when we apply caster metrics to the class, it seems even further behind the curve than when looked at like a martial. The Alchemist is my favorite class too, which is why I've found the PF2 execution so frustrating.
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I think it may be a bit more elegant to just expand the Alchemists options for damage rather than giving them "full" attack bonus. The energy mutagen is a step in the right direction (and maybe even a fix by itself) since that would allow melee alchemists to quick-alchemy into fight-long weakness-targeting and extra damage. However, paizo published that mutagen with the uncommon-soft-ban (TM) so you can't really play that reliably.
More martial-focused mutagens and elixirs are the better fix, IMO.
Erm, how does this help exactly? I like that energy mutagen exists but all it really is is a mutagen that allows Alchemists to use melee weapons (like bestial lets them use unarmed and quicksilver ranged weapons). It doesn't fix their inherent math problems.
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You bet, very curious as to when the PDF will drop today, soon hopefully??
:)
Tom
Only 9:30 Pt. I would expect it to not be before Noon pacific.
Got it so 2 and a half hours from now if we are lucky, lets hope it did not get delayed. And hope the Play test is on track for next Wednesday as well!!
Tom
Where on here it drops is also a concern... want to find it and get it printed out for all my players, as well as digest it, before the next game session.
Erm, how does this help exactly? I like that energy mutagen exists but all it really is is a mutagen that allows Alchemists to use melee weapons (like bestial lets them use unarmed and quicksilver ranged weapons). It doesn't fix their inherent math problems.I think it may be a bit more elegant to just expand the Alchemists options for damage rather than giving them "full" attack bonus. The energy mutagen is a step in the right direction (and maybe even a fix by itself) since that would allow melee alchemists to quick-alchemy into fight-long weakness-targeting and extra damage. However, paizo published that mutagen with the uncommon-soft-ban (TM) so you can't really play that reliably.
More martial-focused mutagens and elixirs are the better fix, IMO.
There is some damage increase that can offset an accuracy decrease.
Where on here it drops is also a concern... want to find it and get it printed out for all my players, as well as digest it, before the next game session.
I believe they said on stream it'll be via a Paizo blog post. They will upload a .PDF there, so you can easily print it out for your players.
There is some damage increase that can offset an accuracy decrease.Erm, how does this help exactly? I like that energy mutagen exists but all it really is is a mutagen that allows Alchemists to use melee weapons (like bestial lets them use unarmed and quicksilver ranged weapons). It doesn't fix their inherent math problems.I think it may be a bit more elegant to just expand the Alchemists options for damage rather than giving them "full" attack bonus. The energy mutagen is a step in the right direction (and maybe even a fix by itself) since that would allow melee alchemists to quick-alchemy into fight-long weakness-targeting and extra damage. However, paizo published that mutagen with the uncommon-soft-ban (TM) so you can't really play that reliably.
More martial-focused mutagens and elixirs are the better fix, IMO.
Yeah, that's how the Barbarian works. The Barbarian has master proficiency and chonky damage to keep up with the more accurate Ranger and Fighter.
Yeah, that's how the Barbarian works. The Barbarian has master proficiency and chonky damage to keep up with the more accurate Ranger and Fighter.There is some damage increase that can offset an accuracy decrease.Erm, how does this help exactly? I like that energy mutagen exists but all it really is is a mutagen that allows Alchemists to use melee weapons (like bestial lets them use unarmed and quicksilver ranged weapons). It doesn't fix their inherent math problems.I think it may be a bit more elegant to just expand the Alchemists options for damage rather than giving them "full" attack bonus. The energy mutagen is a step in the right direction (and maybe even a fix by itself) since that would allow melee alchemists to quick-alchemy into fight-long weakness-targeting and extra damage. However, paizo published that mutagen with the uncommon-soft-ban (TM) so you can't really play that reliably.
More martial-focused mutagens and elixirs are the better fix, IMO.
Exactly. The alchemist just needs additional damage or additional effects to make its even lower accuracy work out. Perhaps they can get more elixirs that add damage and rider effects to their unarmed attack that stack with bestial mutagen (which would let alchemists capitalize on dual elixir better). They could also get more things that trigger on a miss (making them a little more caster-y).
Like: maybe they can get a feat that lets their elemental mutagen damage go through on a miss or something else they can do on a miss (or maybe the errata can give those kinds of effects to mutagen specialists)? Perhaps they can get an action that lets them follow up a missed martial weapon attack with a bomb attack at full BAB?
One important thing to remember is this though: the alchemist should never completely catch up to martial classes in terms of combat efficiency if only because the alchemist also has a grab bag of other goodies in addition to their combat schtick.
...Yeah, that's how the Barbarian works. The Barbarian has master proficiency and chonky damage to keep up with the more accurate Ranger and Fighter.There is some damage increase that can offset an accuracy decrease.Erm, how does this help exactly? I like that energy mutagen exists but all it really is is a mutagen that allows Alchemists to use melee weapons (like bestial lets them use unarmed and quicksilver ranged weapons). It doesn't fix their inherent math problems.I think it may be a bit more elegant to just expand the Alchemists options for damage rather than giving them "full" attack bonus. The energy mutagen is a step in the right direction (and maybe even a fix by itself) since that would allow melee alchemists to quick-alchemy into fight-long weakness-targeting and extra damage. However, paizo published that mutagen with the uncommon-soft-ban (TM) so you can't really play that reliably.
More martial-focused mutagens and elixirs are the better fix, IMO.
Exactly. The alchemist just needs additional damage or additional effects to make its even lower accuracy work out. Perhaps they can get more elixirs that add damage and rider effects to their unarmed attack that stack with bestial mutagen (which would let alchemists capitalize on dual elixir better). They could also get more things that trigger on a miss (making them a little more caster-y).
Like: maybe they can get a feat that lets their elemental mutagen damage go through on a miss or something else they can do on a miss (or maybe the errata can give those kinds of effects to mutagen specialists)? Perhaps they can get an action that lets them follow up a missed martial weapon attack with a bomb attack at full BAB?
One important thing to remember is this though: the alchemist should never completely catch up to martial classes in terms of combat efficiency if only
If the damage numbers are still big, then that is just more interesting to play at the table. Then the game can become about stacking bonuses and penalties that maximize landing alchemically boosted hay-makers. Quick edit: how often are characters fighting an enemy where the FIGHTER has a 50% chance to hit? CR+3 enemies?
Also, effects on a miss is probably still a more interesting approach than just boosting damage.
forum quote system needs work...i dont find a playstyle of 9/10 you miss 1/10 you hit and insta-win to be particulary "fun".
I think, when the whole system is designed, across all classes, to be able to reach at least master proficiency and use your primary stat, for around 50% success rate, then having ONE class simultaneously only being able to reach expert AND being 100% unable to use it's primary stat, for "at best" a 35% success rate, is simply "math problem".
He literally has around two thirds the accuracy of everyone else.
A simple solution would be to at least make it so that "when under tyhe effects of a mutagen, you can attack using Int" (as a core ability for ALL paths that is)
He'd still have to rely on his other abilities, like bombs and etc to overcome the proficiency gap, but at least he won't be lagging behind in the Attribute department.
FWIW, Warpriest Cleric also only reaches expert and doesn't attack with its primary stat.
i dont find a playstyle of 9/10 you miss 1/10 you hit and insta-win to be particulary "fun".
I think it is fine if that is just one part of the class's kit, especially given that it is 7/20ths and you can adjust that through tactics.
Also, Maxastro makes a point and I will also not that you can catch up your second stat at level 5.
i dont find a playstyle of 9/10 you miss 1/10 you hit and insta-win to be particulary "fun".I think it is fine if that is just one part of the class's kit, especially given that it is 7/20ths and you can adjust that through tactics.
Also, Maxastro makes a point and I will also not that you can catch up your second stat at level 5.
and be down again at level 10.
everyone can increase his success rates with the same tactics, only alchemist has literally 2/3rds the accuracy of ALL other classes (including warpriest)
p.s.
the erratta was an utter disappointment as well.
"once/day" that is a joke at best, they could save some face and simply remove the ability altogether, that's about how useful it is.
And then back again at 15+! :3
How are they behind warpriests?
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Flashback is better than nothing, but it fits that label pretty strictly.
I get that first level specialization abilities aren't supposed to be game changers. The bomber one is just a nice way to avoid hurting your friends and the chirurgeon one is essentially just a small to medium sized bonus to medicine checks.
But going into this errata Hyde-style alchemists had a lot of problems doing what they wanted to do and having enough mutagens to last through the day was absolutely never one of them. Mutagens are already super efficient in terms of how much mileage you get out of one. So efficient that the Mutagenist's perpetual alchemy already feels kind of underwhelming.
Doubling down on that just feels weird.
i dont find a playstyle of 9/10 you miss 1/10 you hit and insta-win to be particulary "fun".I think it is fine if that is just one part of the class's kit, especially given that it is 7/20ths and you can adjust that through tactics.
Also, Maxastro makes a point and I will also not that you can catch up your second stat at level 5.
and be down again at level 10.
everyone can increase his success rates with the same tactics, only alchemist has literally 2/3rds the accuracy of ALL other classes (including warpriest)
p.s.
the erratta was an utter disappointment as well.
"once/day" that is a joke at best, they could save some face and simply remove the ability altogether, that's about how useful it is.
And then back again at 15+! :3
How are they behind warpriests?
it still is more than half the levels down by a +1 (that's half a proficiency)
warpriest attacking with spells still reaches master+main stat
Well, I have already gone over how most of the alchemists abilities are buffs which don't require accuracy so I really do think the situation is comparable.
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1 per day for mutagenists flashback seems pretty limited.
What also up with bespell it already 4th level feat did they decide to change it 6th level?
The errata needs errata. The sidebar should clearly be changed from 6 to 4, not from 4 to 6.
So, mutagenic flashback is pretty awful and minor healing potions got a 33% increase in price. Blegh.
Yea there really seems to be no way to play the Mutagen chugging melee mauler in 2e. A curious design choice to say the least, considering how popular that type of character was in 1e.
Frankly I'd rather they just had not included Mutagen among the Alchemist's abilities in 2e. Better to not include Mutagen at all than to include it solely for the purpose of gimping your character. Are Alchemists really so powerful in 2e that they needed a crippling weakness?
The errata needs errata. The sidebar should clearly be changed from 6 to 4, not from 4 to 6.1 per day for mutagenists flashback seems pretty limited.
What also up with bespell it already 4th level feat did they decide to change it 6th level?
Yep, already officially confirmed:
Bespell at 6 for sorcerers but 4 for wizards?The errata has which number is wrong backwards, change the table to match the text (which is 6 to 4, not 4 to 6).
The good point of Flashback is that it's a free action (and it's missing the trigger, by the way).