What about the other characters? Are you alone in this? What do they think?
Offing a paladin might be tough for you alone, but if your team's backing you, whatever they may be, the game changes.
This sounds like a campaign where PvP is okay, so recruit your party.
One person shanking him in his sleep is one thing (probably enough, but still), three is another matter.Not only having allies will make it easier, but I'd argue if they disagree, you're just as likely to become the problem. And that's not good for the table.
Agreed: get the party on your side, then "Murder on the Orient Express" the pally (i.e., everybody takes their turn sinking in the dagger).
-- That way, when his inevitable replacement character shows up, he's not gunning for you specifically. And maybe he finally clues in to the fact that he was cheesing off everyone.
Then again, he may come to these forums with a tale of woe that looks a lot like this, so YMMV.
"How likely is this to come to blows"
It will probably happen the next time the Paladin thinks it's funny to backhand the Wizard. So I'd say probably within the next 4 sessions.So his character is physically attacking your character?
Or has this other player already been hitting you in real life?
Specifically not dealing damage to the Wizard, but it's terribly insulting from the roleplay side if things, especially when his player is daily trying to "accidentally" get us all killed.
Real life, no way. I wouldn't permit it. He is the sort who could talk forever about what he wants, but if you try to add to the conversation, he visibly loses all interest, and often interrupts. My real life annoyance with this player is about a 6/10, but my character's fury at the Paladin is currently about a 9/10.
I am hoping to convince the GM that he isn't LG before PvP is initiated so he can't Lay on Hands or Cure Light Wounds on himself.
You need to make sure he is an ex-paladin before going after him. From what you have said that should not be hard, but you will need to talk to the GM about it. It sounds like he already should be, but this needs to be discussed with the GM. Do you know what deity he worships? Many deities have addition to the code that could make it easier. If he is a worshiper of Sarenrae for example he has broken his code multiple ways. If he loses his paladin status he also loses a lot of his defenses.
One thing that would help with giving advice is more information about your character. Without know what you have access to it is kind of hard to give any meaningful advice. Knowing that you are a wizard without knowing what spells and abilities you have access to makes it difficult to figure out your best tactic.
Theres an awful lot of not actually giving advice for the question OP asked and a lot of editorializing about the type of game he's in going on in this thread.
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Partly because it's not sounding like a purely in-game problem, and killing the paladin doesn't prevent the player from pulling the same, exact nonsense next game.
And partly because "kill him in his sleep" and "recruit allies" is all the advice you need for the pvp bit.
That's kind of it.
If that's not possible, identify his weakness and use them. Avoid saves. Get him by surprise.
The "social death" option, while probably my favorite, may not be doable? If the party's always lost in the middle of nowhere, there's no way to make his well deserved reputation into a real problem. If it is, go for it. Make his behavior cost him.
He's certainly giving paladins a bad name, let alone the rest of his faith. I don't say this often, but he also probably should fall at some point.
As an aside : it's fine to not play with everyone.
I have acquaintances - and I know of gamers I've followed in streamed campaigns - who, while perfectly okay in another context, just will not play together because they know from experience that they're really not compatible on that front.
If you're decently friendly with that guy otherwise, and you want it to stay that way, not playing with him anymore is not out of the question.
The fact that its not a purely in game problem isn't really relevant. OP asked for help putting an end to this paladin. PVP is ok in this campaign, so all the cringing over pvp is irrelevant. The idea that it might degenerate to a physical altercation is laughable. Most likely at best you get a tantrum, that wont really matter much cause that player will be out of the campaign til the rest of the party dies or gets bored.
We aren't therapists here, qualified to help people patch relationships based on a sliver of one side of the whole story, and if people aren't into that kind of campaign they wouldn't join/remain in it.
Just because a lot of people here aren't into that kind of game (im not particularly. I dont even like when GM's make new characters come in lower than 1 level below other party members after a death) doesn't make the commentary on how horrible it sounds helpful to OP. Clearly they enjoy the game and/or style enough to want to continue playing or they'd have ghosted already.
"Fayette G, do you LIKE playing this game?"
Short answer, yes. The higher lethality is rewarded with faster level progression, and any characters that make it to the end and survive, get to progress into the next campaign, so if I make it, this wizard will be EPIC.
Also, most of the group are really good at the making/playing characters appropriate to the setting, it's just the one who likes to always be either CE, or "too stupid to know it's hurting/endangering people".
I'm in other games with most of the rest of the group, but this is the only one where the Paladin's player and I overlap. And as I said, I'm annoyed, but in-character, the Paladin's hypocrisy is pushing the Wizard too far.
I brought up the situation in passing to the GM after the last session, but without outlining the offenses and their implications or having an example of an overtly evil act, the GM wasn't quite ready to remove the Paladin's powers. I plan on addressing this in more detail the next time I talk to the GM. Perhaps the greater context of the actions from a character's perspective will make a difference.
Thank you all for the advice, and the concern for my enjoyment of the game. I think the best course of action is to recruit the Fighter and Ranger if I can, at least into a "if the crap hits the fan, we leave the oaf and get ourselves out" plan. If I can convince them of that, I'll have more confidence in them siding with the Wizard when he responds to the Paladin pushing him too far. For the fight, I plan to fly out of reach, drop a pit under him, then rain every damaging Evocation spell I have down on him.
(Assassination would likely not sit well with the other characters, and would be more likely to make a couple players salty, so that won't be plan-a)
The situation here has the potential to be incredibly complicated. Maybe talking it through is key. Maybe that would be pointless. I certainly don't know.
All that aside, if he doesn't have a decent ranged option or a way to travel fairly quickly (like a mount), then Fly+evocation is basically a win button.
But even if he's just sporting a masterwork mighty bow, beware. Your AC is...somewhere between 14 and 17? And his touch AC is 10-12? You've got 35ish hp to his 57 or so? +7 (1d8+4) is just shy of 6% of your health. Shocking Grasp with spectral hand is...+5 (5d6), so just over 4.5% of his.
Of course, if you do Invisibility and Fly, you've got more than more time to pile on
every defense known to wizard-kind. Mage Armor, Shield and Mirror Image are standard. Protection from Arrows and Wind Wall will make you all but immune to most ranged attacks.
And a scroll of invisibility in your back pocket, in case things go south.
Fly + Scorching Ray
The paladin is unlikely to have a high touch AC and there is no save.
Alternately, Spectral Hand and Shocking Grasp.
Either way, you are going to need all available spells; the paladin will be healing each round.
57hp+4d6 lay on hands+2d8+4 Cure Light Wounds = 84hp on average.
0-level spells: 4
1-level spells: 3+1+1=5
2-level spells: 2+1+1=4
3-level spells: 1+1+1=3
1-Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Shocking Grasp ×2
2- Shocking Grasp ×3, Spectral Hand
3- Fly, Wind Wall, Shocking Grasp
Scrolls- Mage Armor, Invisibility ×2, Spectral Hand
Assuming Str8,you'd have a +6 to hit him with shocking grasp (-1+2+2+3). Versus AC12, you're hitting him 75% of the time.
75% of 6 shocking grasps = 75% of 30d6 = 78.5 on average. Really, I'd expect to miss 1-2 times, for 87.5-70 damage.
So I'd invest in a wand of magic missile to finish the job.
Of course, that assumes that he was at full health to start. And I'd probably wait until the end of a significant encounter. As soon as he switches to "pre-combat mode", looting corpses and using healing spells, you rise into the air, give your big reveal speech, cast Spectral Hand and start frying him.
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The fact that its not a purely in game problem isn't really relevant. OP asked for help putting an end to this paladin. PVP is ok in this campaign, so all the cringing over pvp is irrelevant. The idea that it might degenerate to a physical altercation is laughable. Most likely at best you get a tantrum, that wont really matter much cause that player will be out of the campaign til the rest of the party dies or gets bored.
We aren't therapists here, qualified to help people patch relationships based on a sliver of one side of the whole story, and if people aren't into that kind of campaign they wouldn't join/remain in it.
Just because a lot of people here aren't into that kind of game (im not particularly. I dont even like when GM's make new characters come in lower than 1 level below other party members after a death) doesn't make the commentary on how horrible it sounds helpful to OP. Clearly they enjoy the game and/or style enough to want to continue playing or they'd have ghosted already.
If someone posts an Advice thread saying that there's a spider in their living room and asks how to build a flamethrower, is it more rational to suggest better ways to solve their problem or to post links to schematics?
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If someone posts an Advice thread saying that there's a spider in their living room and asks how to build a flamethrower, is it more rational to suggest better ways to solve their problem or to post links to schematics?The fact that its not a purely in game problem isn't really relevant. OP asked for help putting an end to this paladin. PVP is ok in this campaign, so all the cringing over pvp is irrelevant. The idea that it might degenerate to a physical altercation is laughable. Most likely at best you get a tantrum, that wont really matter much cause that player will be out of the campaign til the rest of the party dies or gets bored.
We aren't therapists here, qualified to help people patch relationships based on a sliver of one side of the whole story, and if people aren't into that kind of campaign they wouldn't join/remain in it.
Just because a lot of people here aren't into that kind of game (im not particularly. I dont even like when GM's make new characters come in lower than 1 level below other party members after a death) doesn't make the commentary on how horrible it sounds helpful to OP. Clearly they enjoy the game and/or style enough to want to continue playing or they'd have ghosted already.
For what it's worth, I don't think torching a character because it's a "Paladin" being played as Chaotic Stupid is quite the same as taking a flame-thrower to a house to get a spider.
That said, there is wisdom in approaching the situation from multiple angles to figure out the best solution. In this case, assassination by poison or coup-de-grace isn't called for ... yet. At this point, it is much better to confront the character in front of the party, make him agree to a code of conduct, what constitutes "lawful" behavior in the group, and if/when he fails to meet that standard, I'll have solid ground and justification for my character to defend himself against the newly-powerless Paladin.
If the wizard missed with a shocking grasp then he should just try another touch attack the next round instead of casting.
Hm. Yes, of course. I just got so caught up in planning for the worst-case scenario. So it looks like you'll be fine, then.
If someone posts an Advice thread saying that there's a spider in their living room and asks how to build a flamethrower, is it more rational to suggest better ways to solve their problem or to post links to schematics?
Not even remotely the same situation. When someone posts a question how to efficiently pvp, "dont pvp" isn't a remotely relevant or useful answer.
Give the Paladin a cursed item imo, but deliver it from a "thankful NPC" as not to rouse suspicion.
Needful Doll can be quite a nuisance.
Needful Doll
Source PZO1135
Slot none; CL 13th; Weight 1 lb.
Aura strong conjuration and illusion
DESCRIPTION
When a humanoid creature picks up this ugly old doll, he triggers a horrible curse. Thereafter, the cursed doll considers that creature its owner. If the owner leaves the doll, it appears next to him the next time he sleeps.
The doll is vindictive. If the owner repeatedly tries to get rid of it or leaves it behind at home, it torments him with terrible nightmares in which everyone he trusts abandons him. If the owner destroys the doll, he has disturbing nightmares in which people he trusts murder him in gruesome ways. If the owner keeps the doll in a backpack or other closed container for much of the day, he has nightmares in which he slowly suffocates in a dark, cramped place.
The nightmares occur the next time the owner sleeps. This functions as per nightmare (DC 22); the doll is considered to have firsthand knowledge of the owner (or familiar knowledge if the owner has owned the doll for more than a week) and to have a body part. Regardless of how the owner abandons or destroys the doll, it returns the next night in the same condition as when the owner first found it. Using break enchantment or remove curse on the doll makes it unable to return for 1d4+1 days, though at that point, it returns as usual.
The doll is quick to forgive, however. If the owner treats it well for a day, carrying it openly and maintaining physical contact, the nightmares fade away until the doll feels that it has been mistreated again. The only certain way to get rid of or destroy the doll (short of miracle or wish) is to find someone who accepts it as a gift. If the owner dies, the curse is lifted, and the doll patiently waits until a new owner finds it, though if the previous owner returns from the dead before that time, the doll returns to his side.
CREATION
Magic Items anatomy doll, ganji doll, hexing doll
But how does the PC acquire a Needful Doll himself? (That's the problem, and one the GM would have to be "in on" for the player to even find one let alone try to fob it off onto someone else in the party.)
Yeah, you would obviously need your GM to be in on it, because the GM is going to have to decide if the Doll becomes vindictive, describe the nightmares, etc.
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Update: The paladin had an alignment change after abandoning an ally in need, but he hasn't done anything to my character, the response this thread was planning for hasn't been triggered yet.
(I helped the abandoned ally, and we all made it out)
But how does the PC acquire a Needful Doll himself? (That's the problem, and one the GM would have to be "in on" for the player to even find one let alone try to fob it off onto someone else in the party.)
As far as acquiring a Needful Doll, I'd go check out Ye Olde Witchcraft and Fetish Shoppe or find someone with Craft Wondrous Item and the requisite spells and make it yourself.
Update: The paladin had an alignment change after abandoning an ally in need...
Well that's good. (It sounds like the GM is finally dealing with the nonsense.)
Now if deity-abandoned ex-pally gives you any crap, you go full-bore motormouth Hobbs & Shaw trash-talk mode. Get the rest of the table laughing.
"How's that 'Atonement' coming? Made any progress? Are you short the 500 gold? Need a loan? Or are you allergic to the incense? Feeling under the weather now that 'Divine Health' packed up and left town? I mean, what's taking so long here? You're just not yourself without that invincible aura of self-righteousness!"
Needful Dolls sound very tenacious, but not very virulent. What bad stuff does the Needful Doll do for you? Why not just carry it around in a sling like a baby?But how does the PC acquire a Needful Doll himself? (That's the problem, and one the GM would have to be "in on" for the player to even find one let alone try to fob it off onto someone else in the party.)As far as acquiring a Needful Doll, I'd go check out Ye Olde Witchcraft and Fetish Shoppe or find someone with Craft Wondrous Item and the requisite spells and make it yourself.
It's a disgusting, ugly doll that you must present openly and maintain physical contact with, otherwise the doll becomes vindictive. So, this is up to the interpretation of the GM whether the doll is being mistreated or whether the doll being in a sling is kosher or not (personally, I would consider this as keeping the "Doll Hidden in a Backpack and make the nightmares occur thusly - read the Needful Doll Nightmare descriptions). But this can definitely add to the roleplaying of the Paladin because he's likely the face or 2nd face of the group, and every NPC he interacts with is going to see a gleaming paladin in shiny armor proudly displaying an ugly ass doll and they're going to want to know what's going on with that. And tbh, Needful Doll is a cursed item that not a lot of people know about so I doubt the PC playing the Paladin knows how it works; I have $5 that says the Paladin discards this thing the second he gets out of eyeshot of the person who gifted it to him, and when it reappears next to him he's going to be like "Wtf!" and destroy it, and eventually, the nightmares are going to be so bad that he'll have to actually figure out what the heck this thing is, and then actually figure out how to get rid of it. As a GM, I could have a lot of fun with that :P
edit: This is what the Doll will be casting every time it feels that it is mistreated :)
NightmareSchool illusion (phantasm) [mind-affecting, evil]; Level alchemist 5, bard 5, sorcerer/wizard 5; Domain madness 5; Subdomain sleep 6
CASTING
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, SEFFECT
Range unlimited
Target one living creature
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yesDESCRIPTION
You send a hideous and unsettling phantasmal vision to a specific creature that you name or otherwise specifically designate.
The nightmare prevents restful sleep and causes 1d10 points of damage. The nightmare leaves the subject fatigued and unable to regain arcane spells for the next 24 hours.
The difficulty of the save depends on your knowledge the subject and the physical connection (if any) you have to that creature.
Knowledge Will Save Modifier
None* +10
Secondhand (you have heard of the subject) +5
Firsthand (you have met the subject) +0
Familiar (you know the subject well) -5
Connection Will Save Modifier
Likeness or picture -2
Possession or garment -4
Body part, lock of hair, bit of nail, etc. -10*You must have some sort of connection to a creature of which you have no knowledge.
Dispel evil cast on the subject while you are casting the spell dispels the nightmare and causes you to be stunned for 10 minutes per caster level of the dispel evil.
If the recipient is awake when the spell begins, you can choose to cease casting (ending the spell) or to enter a trance until the recipient goes to sleep, whereupon you become alert again and complete the casting. If you are disturbed during the trance, you must succeed on a Concentration check as if you were in the midst of casting a spell or the spell ends.
If you choose to enter a trance, you are not aware of your surroundings or the activities around you while in the trance.
You are defenseless, both physically and mentally, while in the trance. (You always fail Will saving throws, for example.)
Creatures who don’t sleep (such as elves, but not half-elves) or dream are immune to this spell.
The Doll is considered to have Firsthand Knowledge of the subject AND a Body part (so that's a -10 to the Save), and the paladin would become "Familiar" to the Doll after a week of "ownership" so that increases the Save penalty to -15. And the Save DC is 22...
He's going to have restless sleep (fatigued) and 1d10 dmg every day until displays it proudly or until he gets rid of it. Lol :)
The best part of this is when he finds out WHO did this to him. I bet it takes about 3-6 sessions of this nonsense plaguing him before he figures it out and finally gets rid of it. And of course you'll be snickering the whole time...
That'll be the LAST time that paladin messes with you :P
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If someone posts an Advice thread saying that there's a spider in their living room and asks how to build a flamethrower, is it more rational to suggest better ways to solve their problem or to post links to schematics?
It depends on the goal.
If the goal is to have a habitable living room, then better suggestions are more rational - including suggestions on how to trap, swat, or ignore the spider.
If the goal is to kill the spider, then the flamethrower is a perfectly acceptable solution, because what happens to the living room is not part of the goal.
The problem is that people often don't understand their goals. They swear up and down they want to kill the spider at any cost, then cry when their living room burns down, because what they really wanted was a habitable living room.
You can't fix stupid.
Many have pointed out the absurdity of solving what appears to be an out of game problem in game. The OP disagrees. What else is there to do? Grab some popcorn.
The primary issue is that...in SOME campaigns pvp is a flamethrower. In this campaign, pvp is more of a "what tool is best to swat the spider"
Pvp is allowed, and the players are forced into a cooling off period by the "no rejoining til next campaign" policy. People here are acting like he's trying to build a flamethrower when he's asking them to hand him a rolled up newspaper.
Yeah, but you don't stop an annoying player by killing his character.
It's like there's a big spider nest somewhere in the house and someone asks how to kill one spider. If your goal is to kill that one spider, a rolled up newspaper will do. If your goal is to not have spiders, you need to get rid of the nest.
It's clear the OP is satisfied with the rolled up newspaper.
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All I care about is he's not a paladin because clearly he's not meant to be a paladin. :P Next time convince him he should go Warpriest....
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Tbh if I was your GM, I would have had a Session Zero with the Player of this Paladin before the campaign started. This is where I'd discuss his character's backstory, goals, ambitions, mysteries, obligations, etc., but also I would reiterate that Lawful Good does not mean Lawful Stupid or Lawful Killjoy, and I would ask them HOW they are going to make sure that they get to play their character without stepping on the toes of the party members. You can't be an insufferable asshat and expect everyone to let you do that simply because "it's what your char would do".
Yeah, but you don't stop an annoying player by killing his character.
It's like there's a big spider nest somewhere in the house and someone asks how to kill one spider. If your goal is to kill that one spider, a rolled up newspaper will do. If your goal is to not have spiders, you need to get rid of the nest.
It's clear the OP is satisfied with the rolled up newspaper.
You realize the player is out of the campaign til the next one when he dies right? Like he's not coming back til they manage a TPK or complete the campaign.