PvP: Wizard looking for an option to take out the Paladin.


Advice

1 to 50 of 85 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

I don't normally go for PvP, but the Paladin has pushed this character to the breaking point, and it's permitted in this campaign. Both characters are Level 5.

The Paladin is "Lawful Good" pretty much in name only. He's being played more Chaotic Stupid than anything else, repeatedly wrecking out attempts to hide from deadly monsters, taunting friendly NPCs to attack us, and ridiculing other player-characters for simple, understandable mistakes.

This L5 Wizard is looking for tactics that could kill the Paladin before the Paladin could kill him (either in combat or by deliberately "accidentally" getting me killed.

(I'm trying to plan for every potential eventuality, so I have a chance to survive if this comes to blows)

Please and Thank You!


3 people marked this as a favorite.

sounds like the player, not the character, is at issue here

also, target touch AC.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

If the paladin is poor with ranged attacks, fly out of reach and rain down scorching rays on him. Riding out of reach may be an option if the paladin doesn't ride and you can buy a warhorse, at least on open terrain.

If the paladin is OK with ranged attacks then you'll need mirror image as well. Prebuffing is the answer here. PvP with equal preparation is inadvisable.

Sovereign Court

Burning Disarm, the Paladin is likely to make the save, so drops their weapon.
Illusion some innocents and make them look like goblins(or Infernal Healing on said innocents), Paladin charges and falls.


8 people marked this as a favorite.

It's simple. You get another paladin and/or the order/religion the Paladin represents and have THEM deal with his stupidity.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I agree this is probably a player problem and should be talked out either with the other player or with the GM.
Alternatively, leave the group either in character or in real life. Would this Wizard really put up with his crap? Should YOU?
Alternatively to alternatively, who is his deity? Make a Knowledge(Religion) check and point out what he's doing wrong. Someone who is a Paladin, who has sworn to themself to follow a set of ideals, should be concerned if someone points out to them something they should have realized immediately. If the character isn't concerned, the GM might get a hint and realize the character is nonsense and the player is being an a$*!!~%.


Firebug wrote:
Burning Disarm, the Paladin is likely to make the save, so drops their weapon.

You can voluntarily fail a save if you want to.

Firebug wrote:
Illusion some innocents and make them look like goblins(or Infernal Healing on said innocents), Paladin charges and falls.

That only really works if the Wizard is Evil or doesn't mind bumping themself toward Evil because that's how far they've been pushed.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm always for talking with a player over conflict with a character; this idea that you can play any character any way doesn't fly at my table. You want to be an honorable White Knight type with the sweet powers to match? You'd best be ready to act the part.

But, assuming that doesn't work here, my suggestion would be as follows:

-see if you can get anyone else on your team. PvP is tricky. 2Pv1P is a lot less so.

-wait until you're in a wide-open space, far from civilization. The less cover, the better.

-Fly, Protection from Arrows, Wind Wall, Mage Armor, Shield, Mirror Image.

-Ray of Enfeeblement, Magic Missile, Scorching Ray.


This sounds more like a player problem rather than a roleplaying problem. I agree with the people here who are saying that. When the player berates someone for a minor mistake, that might be a good time to call them out for his major ones. When the party agrees to on a plan to lay an ambush, point out that that his role as a Lawful Good character is to support the group he's in. If it's too dishonorable for Dudley Doright there to be part of the ambush, then make him the bait. Give him the chance to stand in front of the Goblin Army and say, "Throw down your weapons, and I will assure you will be decently treated!"

If you really want to move ahead with killing the Paladin:

You could sort of accidentally catch the Paladin in your area effect spells.

You could nudge the situation where he is alone in combat and just sort of not help him. There's a good chance he gets himself into situations like that anyway.

You could arrange for his behavior to be seen by authorities, including Thomas Seitz's idea for his order to see his behavior.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'd almost bet it's a problem with the player. I've seen this a couple of times over the years. Chances are talking with the player won't change anything, so PvP may be the only option. Buff up, like has been suggested. Use Fly, Improved Invisibility, and as many damaging spells as you can dig up. Also, mind-controlling spells as well. Too bad you're not evil, because I'd poison him.

Sovereign Court

Bloodrealm wrote:
Firebug wrote:
Burning Disarm, the Paladin is likely to make the save, so drops their weapon.
You can voluntarily fail a save if you want to.
Does the Paladin have Spellcraft to know what spell you cast so they know it is better to voluntarily fail the save?
Bloodrealm wrote:
Firebug wrote:
Illusion some innocents and make them look like goblins(or Infernal Healing on said innocents), Paladin charges and falls.
That only really works if the Wizard is Evil or doesn't mind bumping themself toward Evil because that's how far they've been pushed.

We're talking PvP so presumably morality doesn't matter anymore. In the games I've played where some or all of the characters are evil, PvP is still off the table.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
DungeonmasterCal wrote:
I'd almost bet it's a problem with the player. I've seen this a couple of times over the years. Chances are talking with the player won't change anything, so PvP may be the only option. Buff up, like has been suggested. Use Fly, Improved Invisibility, and as many damaging spells as you can dig up. Also, mind-controlling spells as well. Too bad you're not evil, because I'd poison him.

You hit the nail on the head.

My character has been NG thusfar, but is on the verge of murdering this paladin to save the party from inevitable death by deliberate stupidity.

Q: Do you think that should force an alignment shift, or would it be justifiable extenuating circumstances? Does the method of execution matter?

I have Poison I'm holding for the party...

I have access to flight, but being the utility caster (magical replacement for the Rogue the party doesn't have), I don't have much means of damage other than a Fireball and Snowball.


Well, providing you can get to a city with spellcasters before the showdown occurs, buy scrolls of other spells. Maybe as many as you can afford. Add Mage Armor and Shield to your defenses. I found a wonderful spell called Murderous Command that would make him attack a party member but alas, it's not a Sorcerer/Wizard spell.

Using the poison would be an alignment changing act, I'd think. But it might be worth it...lol


FayetteGamer wrote:
I have Poison I'm holding for the party...

How does your Paladin feel about using poison?

Most Lawful Stupid Paladins consider it a violation of their oaths or something to use Poison.

If that's the kind of Paladin he is, you should surreptitiously poison the Paladin's sword. When he kills someone with poison, he'll lose his Paladin abilities until he atones.

While he's atoning, get him to roll up another character, one that doesn't suck this time.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Actually using poison on a character with a good Fort save and Cha added to saves is a mugs' game though.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Using the poison would be an alignment changing act, I'd think. But it might be worth it...lol

I don't see the "poison = Evil" connection. There's literally nothing to support that. The actual problem with poison is as avr says.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
FayetteGamer wrote:
I have Poison I'm holding for the party...

How does your Paladin feel about using poison?

Most Lawful Stupid Paladins consider it a violation of their oaths or something to use Poison.

If that's the kind of Paladin he is, you should surreptitiously poison the Paladin's sword. When he kills someone with poison, he'll lose his Paladin abilities until he atones.

While he's atoning, get him to roll up another character, one that doesn't suck this time.

To break the paladin’s code requires the paladin to knowingly do something. This type of tactics do not work.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
FayetteGamer wrote:


My character has been NG thusfar, but is on the verge of murdering this paladin to save the party from inevitable death by deliberate stupidity.

Q: Do you think that should force an alignment shift, or would it be justifiable extenuating circumstances? Does the method of execution matter?

As a Good character, especially Neutral Good, your character likely wouldn't resort to murdering him for the benefit of the party, but rather attempting to remove him from the group some other way. The most obvious, most sensible, and potentially easiest solution would be to contact a relatively high authority of the religion of the Paladin's deity. They may be able to set him straight, remind him of what he stands for, and make something constructive out of the situation.

However, if you really feel like this has had enough of an effect on your character that they may be starting to reconsider their outlook on things, you might start changing their behaviour a little as a result, potentially even informing the GM that you don't believe Neutral Good suits your character's personality anymore and ask to shift your alignment to True Neutral. YOU are clearly wondering about how you might be rid of this guy, possibly in a permanent sort of way, so you should carefully think about if your character would be thinking the same thing.


Bloodrealm wrote:
DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Using the poison would be an alignment changing act, I'd think. But it might be worth it...lol
I don't see the "poison = Evil" connection. There's literally nothing to support that. The actual problem with poison is as avr says.

Eh, misremembering something I read somewhere, I guess. *shrugs*


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Have you talked to the GM about his behavior? If the paladin is actually acting in a chaotic manner his alignment should have shifted to neutral good and he should already be an ex-paladin.

What I would be inclined to do is to call out the paladins actions as putting innocents in danger. If the friendly NPC’s have any kind of authority point out that he needs to respect their authority. And if his deity has a paladin’s code check to make sure he is following that.

How does the rest of the group feel about his actions? If they are also sick of it have one of the players appointed as the official leader of the group. Now when the paladin disobeys the leaders order you have a legitimate reason for him to at least get a warning he is violating his code. If there is a cleric of his deity in the party make sure he becomes the leader and his character is going to be in double jeopardy when he disobeys an order.

This is a much better way of dealing with a misbehaving paladin than trying to trick him into unknowingly doing something that violates his code.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

I think OP needs to talk to the other players and get a feeling if they are fed up by the Paladin's actions or not. If they are, the next time the party is in town arrange for the entire party to give him "the talk". Bring up how he isn't fitting in, specific examples of what kinds of actions the party as a whole don't agree with, and get his side of those incidents. In character, talk it out.

Then after you vented the list of grievances see if the Paladin can come to an understanding with the party. If the character backslides, then invite him to leave. The paladin doesn't need to die to be removed from the party.

Act like the paladin is a living breathing person that has gone with you into deadly situations as an ally. Don't get all murder hobo for no good reason. Let the other guy do that. Let him be the one to have to explain why his LG paladin turned against his allies.

But as an aside, spend some gold on spells. Not scrolls, just spells. Wizards do let people copy from their books for reasonable prices.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I agree with Meirril: no need for combat, just get together with the other PCs and arrange an intervention.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I was in a similar situation myself, only in that case, the paladin (of Aroden somehow) was bullying everyone, and the GM allowed it. Another player backed me up when I tattled to the GM, the player refused to believe he did anything wrong, then told us we were over-reacting, but PvP was not allowed.

So the only spell I cast on him was Enlarge Person in the hopes of making him a bigger target when he'd inevitably charge and alert everyone within shouting distance to his presence. When that didn't work, my character announced, "I don't want to be human any more," but nobody realized why. Then I announced I'd hand over a written transcript of all my findings to the Pathfinder Society, apologize to the others for being unable to cope with this undeserving, deluded battle oracle, and left to another continent.

Basically, when I couldn't take it any more, I left and put the same character into another AP that different people were partway through. He was my first character to never get killed in either adventure.


Hire a series of dwarves to challenge him to drinking contests. 1 to 3 silver pieces to hire them and 2 sp per gallon of beer and you should easily be able to afford to do this 20 times with a different dwarf and 2 gallons of beer with a paltry budget of 10 gold pieces. Whiskey is 1 sp per 8 ounces, which works out to 5 and 1/3 shots of booze, if you want to go with liquor instead.

Once he's drunk himself unconscious, then you can do pretty much anything you like with him. Like put him aboard a ship heading for Arcadia.

Alternatively, do something suitably heroic so that you get thrown a victory party and have him get himself drunk while you've made arrangements.

For 10 gold, you could also hire a troupe of 33 actors for some kind of scheme. Or possibly acquire sufficient numbers of goons to give yourself an ablative shield of goons.

Investing in Carry Companion and a way to alter animals' attitudes towards you (perhaps Diplomacy + Anthropomorphic Animal ) could allow you to acquire your own set of loyal minions that you can build up discreetly over time.

There are a number of herd animals that use the CR 4 Bison statblock, many of them are not too expensive, Cows are 10 gp and Oxen are 15 gp, for instance. Alternatively, hiring a Druid to cast Call Animal is 10 gp multiplied by the CR of the creature you want to grab.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

UH.....just coup de grace him in his sleep no need to make it complicated. On your watch fire some crittable ray or touch spell into his face, people at level 5 don't make that kind of fort save unless you roll disastrously low on damage


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Have you talked to the GM about his behavior? If the paladin is actually acting in a chaotic manner his alignment should have shifted to neutral good and he should already be an ex-paladin.

What I would be inclined to do is to call out the paladins actions as putting innocents in danger. If the friendly NPC’s have any kind of authority point out that he needs to respect their authority. And if his deity has a paladin’s code check to make sure he is following that.

How does the rest of the group feel about his actions? If they are also sick of it have one of the players appointed as the official leader of the group. Now when the paladin disobeys the leaders order you have a legitimate reason for him to at least get a warning he is violating his code. If there is a cleric of his deity in the party make sure he becomes the leader and his character is going to be in double jeopardy when he disobeys an order.

This is a much better way of dealing with a misbehaving paladin than trying to trick him into unknowingly doing something that violates his code.

There's no authority available for my character to tattle to in the current location, and the only places safe from the monsters are the ones that our welcome was worn out by the Paladin, causing the "too powerful to bother killing us" monstrous NPCs to kick us out.

The next time I see the GM, I'll detail how the Paladin's actions have been overtly Chaotic, and his alignment should shift. The DM has expressed amusement at the likelihood of the party killing the Paladin.

(The player's favored style is "too stupid to not rashly do something that endangers the party". It's like the murderhobo, but with noisily prying open crates to see what's inside when we're hiding from a monster that hunts by sound... so he's indirectly trying to get the party killed, so I doubt any intervention would work, as this is out-of-character knowledge of the player stacking with in-character frustration at being pushed around and berated by the one who should be the champion of goodness)

As for the rest of the group, one is likely to be on my side, one on his, and the fifth is a mystery, not having been part of the dispute.


You don’t necessarily need an authority to call it out to. Use it as a roleplay opportunity and a subtle way of causing the GM and other player to put some pressure on it. Lay some ground work before doing anything.

If the player (Not the character) is trying to get the party killed you need to have a serious talk with the GM about his actions.

The Exchange

So a party member is causing fights to break out when everyone else is trying to stealth. That's easy, back out and let him fight alone.


Pit trap under paladin, summon swarm at bottom...


Bloodrealm wrote:
DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Using the poison would be an alignment changing act, I'd think. But it might be worth it...lol
I don't see the "poison = Evil" connection. There's literally nothing to support that. The actual problem with poison is as avr says.
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
To break the paladin’s code requires the paladin to knowingly do something. This type of tactics do not work.

It's a thing:

Code of Conduct wrote:

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

It says "not willingly." It does not say, "not knowingly."

The difference between breaking your vows knowingly and willingly and being tricked into breaking your vows is that if you were tricked, you can atone, or if there were really extenuating circumstances, you can atone.

The Exchange

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Realizing that I am not there and thus am the perfect person to comment on this entire situation (not really knowing anything about the circumstances makes me the expert right?), it looks to me like the OP is presented with the Classic "Jerk Player" problem. I've been playing RPGs a long time, and over the years I have started to loose my patience with "Problem Children". Me? I'd just kick him (the player) out.

But first, talk to the other players. Maybe the Paladin Player isn't the real problem (though most often it is) - if the rest of the players feel the PC rather than the player is a problem - just leave him in camp next time you stop. Or leave town (without the Paladin) for the adventure a day early and leave a note for the Paladin telling him you all went to the Southern Continent (bonus points if there is NO Southern Continent). Ask the player to change PCs, and offer to help him outfit a replacement.

But if the other players feel the Player is a problem, you have to ask yourself the following... Is it worth the effort to try to reform him? Not for me it isn't. 30 years ago I would have tried to. (Did so many times, with varying amounts of success). 20 years ago I would have put some effort into it (and did so)... 10 years ago, I would have even thought about it and would have put the effort into it if they brought something else to the game besides a potentially suicidal game style or an anti-social outlook. (Pizza? Snacks? Driving one of the other players?) Now? What do I do now when I encounter this type of player? Kick him out and don't look back. Or more often just walk away.

If I can't kick him out, I walk away. Find another group.

Life is too short for bad gaming. If it's not fun - don't do it.

Worried about not having enough players to form a game? Here's some food for thought... I sort of wonder how many people have been avoiding your gaming group because of the "problem child". The "Socially Challenged Player" has been in the hobby for a while... how many players in his local area will recognize him, and avoid any group he is in? The type of player I am thinking of often actively drives people away from a group - often even driving them away from the hobby.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I will say this. Killing his character will never make (and has never made) a player say "gosh you're right I better ship up. Good point. Hey heres a much better character for me and I'll totally change how I am from now on. Thanks for killing me in my sleep."

And since goal will never happen, I don't see a reason to help you achieve that goal.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

True. But whether talking to the player will change anything is not guaranteed.

You know the guy, we don't.
If you think he can be reasoned with, it's always the better option.
If not, well, again, depends on him. Chances are things aren't going to end well and nice. For killing him, sleeping people don't fight back much. If awake, you're a utility caster, I' d look at control and party buffs to beat him as a group.

Or, just don't fight. Refuse to deal with his nonsense.
It's hardly necessary to kill him, and risky to boot, when you can just kick him out of the party. No reason for the rest of you to tolerate someone actively trying to get them killed, or at the very least unwilling to play along with what the rest of the group has planned.
Reckless behavior and willing, unrepentant stupidity are a good enough reason to abandon a burden of a partymate.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

"Wizard looking for an option to take out the Paladin. "

well, have you tried a dozen roses and a small valentine invitation? Perhaps a bottle of his favorite Adult Beverage, presented on ice in the tavern one evening after a long day of slaying evil creatures? Point out shared interests in quite walks along the beach ...

Taking out a Paladin.

He may be a bit focused - perhaps even Divinely Inspired, but with a little work you should be able to wear down his resistance and ... what?

whisper-whisper ...other definition of "take out"...

Oh... Sorry! never mind then. Moving on...


Ryan Freire wrote:
UH.....just coup de grace him in his sleep no need to make it complicated. On your watch fire some crittable ray or touch spell into his face, people at level 5 don't make that kind of fort save unless you roll disastrously low on damage

It lacks a certain panache if you're doing it right before kicking him from the group.

If the other player isn't getting evicted from the group, then just coup de gracing his character with a Scythe, Tetsubo, or Butchering Axe will only give him ideas and kick off a team-killing arms race.


Distance yourself from him. Retreat when he gives away your position, avoid him when in civilization so he causes problems for himself only, and make it clear that you aren't affiliated with him in any other social encounters.

If you absolutely need to kill him, still do this stuff. Then, one morning, leave early for the next adventure, set up a couple Calistria's Guardian Wasp spells in the direction you expect the paladin to head off on his own, and let him get slowly picked to death by creatures otherwise immune to his abilities. If done in secret, the paladin should have no idea that this was your fault and the DM should have no reason to reveal it to you. Summon swarm and invisibility would give you cheaper method, and you could do it during combat to excuse the friendly fire, but the guardian wasps are the cleaner kill.


Cavall wrote:

I will say this. Killing his character will never make (and has never made) a player say "gosh you're right I better ship up. Good point. Hey heres a much better character for me and I'll totally change how I am from now on. Thanks for killing me in my sleep."

And since goal will never happen, I don't see a reason to help you achieve that goal.

This is an attrition campaign. New characters don't join, and killed characters aren't replaced. If the Paladin dies, The player isn't in the game until the next campaign starts (it also means if it goes wrong and I lose my character, I'm out until the next campaign).

Does that affect anyone's opinions?

My current thought is the next time he tries to back-hand my character, taking to the sky, dropping a pit under him, then roasting him with Fireball and any other damaging spells/scrolls I have, before leaving and letting the monsters that heard the noise finish him off while I go hide. I just don't know if the party will join me, join him, or want to be somewhere safe while this plays out.


FayetteGamer wrote:
Cavall wrote:

I will say this. Killing his character will never make (and has never made) a player say "gosh you're right I better ship up. Good point. Hey heres a much better character for me and I'll totally change how I am from now on. Thanks for killing me in my sleep."

And since goal will never happen, I don't see a reason to help you achieve that goal.

This is an attrition campaign. New characters don't join, and killed characters aren't replaced. If the Paladin dies, The player isn't in the game until the next campaign starts (it also means if it goes wrong and I lose my character, I'm out until the next campaign).

Does that affect anyone's opinions?

It solidifies mine, don't f#$! around, murk him in his sleep and let the player sit out and think about why he got murked in his sleep.


Ryan Freire wrote:
FayetteGamer wrote:

This is an attrition campaign. New characters don't join, and killed characters aren't replaced. If the Paladin dies, The player isn't in the game until the next campaign starts (it also means if it goes wrong and I lose my character, I'm out until the next campaign).

Does that affect anyone's opinions?

It solidifies mine, don't f@!@ around, murk him in his sleep and let the player sit out and think about why he got murked in his sleep.

I don't have confidence in this character's ability to kill the Paladin in the one hit of the Coup-De-Grace. He's built as more of a tank than a damage dealer. I haven't seen his Character Sheet, but I expect his Con is about as high as my Intelligence.


You're level 5, assuming a standardish stat spread, if his con is +4 his cha is probably around +2 or 3.

level 5 paladin +4 base fort, +4 con +3 cha means +11 to fort saves, lets say a misc +1 resistance bonus from a cloak or some trait to bring it to +12

Take a heavy pick. 1d8 X4 crit. Bulls strength yourself min +2 damage assuming you aren't in the negatives for strength, assuming no other modifiers you're doing 4d8+8 on the crit meaning the lowest save is 22 and the highest is in the 40's. You only have an 8% chance of doing less than 20 damage according to rumkin.com's dice roller. At 20 damage his save not to die outright is 30, which means he needs to roll an 18 or higher on the d20 not to die outright.

You get a similar result from coup de gracing him with a shocking grasp.

Be more confident in your ability to kill him in 1 hit from a coup de grace


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Coup de grace is nasty. Take the 4d6 for a scorching ray, doubled for auto crit, 28 avg dmg. He will survive 28hp, but he now must make a fort save, DC 10 + dmg dealt, or die. So DC 38 save or die.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

What about the other characters? Are you alone in this? What do they think?

Offing a paladin might be tough for you alone, but if your team's backing you, whatever they may be, the game changes.
This sounds like a campaign where PvP is okay, so recruit your party.
One person shanking him in his sleep is one thing (probably enough, but still), three is another matter.

Not only having allies will make it easier, but I'd argue if they disagree, you're just as likely to become the problem. And that's not good for the table.


Nyerkh wrote:

What about the other characters? Are you alone in this? What do they think?

Offing a paladin might be tough for you alone, but if your team's backing you, whatever they may be, the game changes.
This sounds like a campaign where PvP is okay, so recruit your party.
One person shanking him in his sleep is one thing (probably enough, but still), three is another matter.

Not only having allies will make it easier, but I'd argue if they disagree, you're just as likely to become the problem. And that's not good for the table.

OP explained this above. 1 with him, 1 with the paladin, 1 indifferent/unknown.

Also no, dont involve other players...do it like i advised, don't give the paladin or his ally an opportunity to respond, or even fight back. As many people said above, this is a player issue and there's no reason to fight even remotely fair or put your character at risk.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

So I guess I'm alone in the whole "Get a religious order to deal with this?"


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I think that's a good idea, Thomas. But the GM would have to run the response the order might have and it seems he/she is really lenient with this guy. It could turn out that nothing comes of that ploy.


FayetteGamer wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
FayetteGamer wrote:

This is an attrition campaign. New characters don't join, and killed characters aren't replaced. If the Paladin dies, The player isn't in the game until the next campaign starts (it also means if it goes wrong and I lose my character, I'm out until the next campaign).

Does that affect anyone's opinions?

It solidifies mine, don't f@!@ around, murk him in his sleep and let the player sit out and think about why he got murked in his sleep.
I don't have confidence in this character's ability to kill the Paladin in the one hit of the Coup-De-Grace. He's built as more of a tank than a damage dealer. I haven't seen his Character Sheet, but I expect his Con is about as high as my Intelligence.

Example weapons for coup de grace use:
Butchering Axes are 3d6, x3 crit weapons and deal an average of 31.5 damage on a coup de grace before taking strength modifiers into account. They cost 65 gp.

Tetsubos are 1d10, x4 crit weapons and deal an average of 22 damage before strength modifiers. They cost 20 gp.

Scythes are 2d4, x4 crit weapons and deal an average of 20 damage before strength modifiers. They cost 18 gp.

If your GM is playing Coup De Grace by RAW, then not only do you automatically hit and crit, but unless he can make a Fortitude save with a DC of 10+Damage Dealt, he just auto dies even if his hp is too high for him to be taken into negatives by the attack. So Butchering Axe is looking at DC 41-42+, Tetsubos DC 32+, Scythes DC 30+.

Power Attack should be compatible with Coup De Grace, too, IIRC.

Further, if the entire party gathers around, the number of coup de graces that could be delivered (or attacks against a helpless, prone target that's probably not fully armored) would make it extremely likely that he would just die from the automatic damage even if he passed multiple high DC fortitude saves in a row.

You also probably have enough money to hire some thugs that are at least 1st level Warriors with Power Attack. That +3 damage from 2-handed Power Attack becomes +9 or +12 to the damage as well as the save DC against instantly dying.

Bison Minion Stuff:
Going back to the Bison idea from earlier, a Bison would deal an average of 38 damage on a coup de grace, for a DC of 48. Alternatively, with Anthropomorphic Animal, it can wield weapons sized for a Large creature. That Butchering Axe becomes a 4d6 weapon and along with the Bison's default strength, that turns into 78 damage, on average, from them critting, if they use Power Attack(PA) that jumps up to 87 damage.

The Tetsubo would go from 1d10 to 2d8 and on a regular coup de grace would deal an average of 84 damage, with PA that becomes 96 damage. The Scythe would go from 2d4 to 2d6 and deal an average of 76 damage, 88 with PA.

A 5th level Paladin is only going to be able to pass a check with a DC in the 86 to 106 range on a natural 20 on rolls where a nat 20 is an automatic success.

Also, even if he had a Constitution of 20, his maximum possible hp would be 75. So it could drop him into negatives or kill him outright.

On top of that, if the Massive Damage rules are being used, there'd be an additional DC 15 Fortitude save if he somehow was not killed.

Java Man wrote:
Coup de grace is nasty. Take the 4d6 for a scorching ray, doubled for auto crit, 28 avg dmg. He will survive 28hp, but he now must make a fort save, DC 10 + dmg dealt, or die. So DC 38 save or die.

Is there a way to Coup De Grace with a spell? I thought that the only way to coup de grace was with a melee weapon or a bow or crossbow.

Also, Snowball at CL 5 is doing 5d6 damage for 10d6 on a crit or an average of 35 damage, so that's a DC 45 on that save against auto-death.

FayetteGamer wrote:

This is an attrition campaign. New characters don't join, and killed characters aren't replaced. If the Paladin dies, The player isn't in the game until the next campaign starts (it also means if it goes wrong and I lose my character, I'm out until the next campaign).

Does that affect anyone's opinions?

Doesn't sound like the healthiest of play environments even aside from the GM and other players tolerating this nonsense behavior.

In the long run you should probably leave this group of people behind.

FayetteGamer wrote:
(I'm trying to plan for every potential eventuality, so I have a chance to survive if this comes to blows)

That reminds me.

How likely is it that this situation will escalate into physical violence?

Because if it is at all within the realm of plausible end results of this, you should really rethink staying on at all.


Coidzor wrote:
...

This is a highly skilled gaming group, a bit Gygaxian in play style , but one of the best I've met. I also play with several of them in other groups. The other groups each have their own dynamic, and the players adjust their play style to match. They also can't be flustered by anything(a factor in game sessions being largely enjoyable in spite of what the Paladin's player does)

This campaign is unique in its attrition element to party size, potentially running out of characters before reaching the end of the story.(I understand this type of game isn't for everyone, like playing Smash Bros with one life per character)

I'm a low-strength wizard with a dagger, no Power Attack or other melee feats. I think my max melee damage on a Crit is 8, and the Paladin likely has a +12 on his Fort Save (+4 Con, +3 Cha, +4 Base, +1 from cloak of resistance), meaning he'd only need to roll a 6+ on his Fort Save to survive the Coup-De-Grace. Not good odds for me.

I didn't think spells could be used for for a Coup-De-Grace? That would definitely change the landscape.

"How likely is this to come to blows"
It will probably happen the next time the Paladin thinks it's funny to backhand the Wizard. So I'd say probably within the next 4 sessions.


FayetteGamer wrote:
Coidzor wrote:
...

This is a highly skilled gaming group, a bit Gygaxian in play style , but one of the best I've met. I also play with several of them in other groups. The other groups each have their own dynamic, and the players adjust their play style to match. They also can't be flustered by anything(a factor in game sessions being largely enjoyable in spite of what the Paladin's player does)

This campaign is unique in its attrition element to party size, potentially running out of characters before reaching the end of the story.(I understand this type of game isn't for everyone, like playing Smash Bros with one life per character)

I'm a low-strength wizard with a dagger, no Power Attack or other melee feats. I think my max melee damage on a Crit is 8, and the Paladin likely has a +12 on his Fort Save (+4 Con, +3 Cha, +4 Base, +1 from cloak of resistance), meaning he'd only need to roll a 6+ on his Fort Save to survive the Coup-De-Grace. Not good odds for me.

I didn't think spells could be used for for a Coup-De-Grace? That would definitely change the landscape.

"How likely is this to come to blows"
It will probably happen the next time the Paladin thinks it's funny to backhand the Wizard. So I'd say probably within the next 4 sessions.

Next time he backhands you change your alignment from NG to N, given that your character is witnessing a champion of goodness.....actually how has he not fallen resorting to physical violence to impose his will on a fellow good aligned party member?

edit: also, you can ONLY coup de grace on spells that require an attack roll. Those spells have a 20 X2 crit rating


FayetteGamer wrote:

"How likely is this to come to blows"

It will probably happen the next time the Paladin thinks it's funny to backhand the Wizard. So I'd say probably within the next 4 sessions.

So his character is physically attacking your character?

Or has this other player already been hitting you in real life?


If you have a shocking grasp spell you should be able to perform a coup de grace with that. Even if you can't, proficiency in the weapon used is not required for a coup de grace, so if you can borrow a greataxe or whatever from the loot pile the paladin is still probably eating a DC 30ish Fort save.

1 to 50 of 85 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / PvP: Wizard looking for an option to take out the Paladin. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.