Sling + shield?

[Mellored]

Can use use/reload a sling/hand bow whilst also using a shield?

Amy other way to get a decent range with a shield?

[thenobledrake]

Reloading a ranged weapon requires a free hand, so you can reload when using a buckler but not the other types of shields.

Javelins can be a pretty decent ranged option to use with a shield, though.

[Zwordsman]

Buckler I think is the only choice currently. Which is a shame. I think it would've been great design space for Slings to work with shields. Since its not really hard to do logistically

[Mellored]

I was hoping for more range than a javelin.

What about Shuriken + shields?

[Zwordsman]

Shuriken shield is of no issue. Shuriken itself specifies reload 0 thrown weapon.

So, 20ft range, str to damage, free hand needed to draw and throw. Can be used with any feats that I know of. (unlike say a thrown weapon using Quick Draw, which is a specific action rather than a free draw with use like reload 0)

[Squiggit]

Zwordsman wrote:

Buckler I think is the only choice currently. Which is a shame. I think it would've been great design space for Slings to work with shields. Since its not really hard to do logistically

PF1 had bucklers, light shields and heavy shields and you could do things with light shields but not with heavy shields.

So I like to think of PF2 bucklers as just bucklers + light shields, since they basically just folded them together and made heavy shields the normal shields.

[Mellored]

Would the shield cantrip work with shield feats? Like shield warden or quick block?

Then I could stick with a bow.

[Zwordsman]

I assume it would work. But do note that it can only block once per 10min or something along those lines.

but as far as I know, it should work fine for all those feats.
but I haven't gone and reread all that stuff, this is just from my memory

Though I suppose presumably you could snag Shield from several different schools to bypass that issue. One from a caster dedication thingy, one from runscarred, one from pathfinder agent's wayfinder.
There is probablysome efficient way of doing that, but you could presumably snag 2 types relatively easily.
and nothing I know of would prevent a different shield spell from being used.

Whether it is worth that much investment to have 2 shield uses in one 10min section is up to you though.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Zwordsman wrote:

Buckler I think is the only choice currently. Which is a shame. I think it would've been great design space for Slings to work with shields. Since its not really hard to do logistically

Actually, I'd think loading a sling while wielding a shield would be a logistical nightmare: Remember, sling bullets/stones don't fit into convenient quivers, so you'll probably have to reach into a bag or pouch that is not so loose that it would easily spill your ammunition, which is kinda hard to do with a hand that is also holding a shield.

Offhand, I'd guess the best process for doing this would be:

First, Transfer the sling to your shield hand, but choke up on it at the same time (Grab it closer to the 'cup' with your shield hand).
• Next, draw a new bullet from your pouch using your main hand.
• Next, load the bullet into the 'cup' of the sling, still using your main hand.
• Then, you need to get the 'grip' end of the sling back into your main hand, which is probably dangling down from your shield hand without letting the bullet fall out (I'm not certain how susceptible sling bullets are to accidentally falling out, but I'm guessing wielding a shield in one of your hands is not going to help the situation).
• Finally, you can attack with the sling.

I'm guessing that loading a sling this way would at least require additional actions for all the juggling you'd need to do.

[Zwordsman]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Actually, I'd think loading a sling while wielding a shield would be a logistical nightmare: Remember, sling bullets/stones don't fit into convenient quivers, so you'll probably have to reach into a bag or pouch that is not so loose that it would easily spill your ammunition, which is kinda hard to do with a hand that is also holding a shield.

I absolutely don't sponsor the "use real world to talk about game world" stuff.

but Shadveristy on youtube, and several others in the shield/armour/medival weapon have done videos on shields + slings specifically. They're by no means trained physically for it, they're just history buffs and or weapon historians (depends on the channel) but they've fairly well done it.
They also cover the different variety of shields that can work with it.

Seemingly except a tower shield, it doesn't seem that odd in consideration to firing two arrows or throwing two shuriken etc.
======
but that whole bit is a side divergence.

Buckler is the only valid choice rules wise currently. Which is to obad considering bucklers don't really have the same amount of upgrades item wise as the others I think

[Castilliano]

Shield spell may work with shield feats if "Use the Raise Shield action" is the only parameter, since the spell specifically says it counts as having done that. You don't have a shield in hand though if that were necessary, though an argument could be made that you do have a shield. Too much gray area (and who wants to argue?), so I'd check with a GM or use other options if playing PFS.

Multiple sources of the Shield cantrip do not give you more blocks per 10 min. If you block, you cannot cast Shield for 10 min. That's a limit on you (not the spell itself) and those other sources are wasted since those are also the Shield spell.

Much like if a Fireball prevented you from casting another Fireball for x amount of time. It wouldn't matter where you sourced your other Fireballs from, you couldn't cast them.

That said, Shield is a great spell for people filling their hands with other items and if your PC is equally proficient w/ a bow, they definitely should prefer that to a sling if firing more than once/combat.

[Zwordsman]

I don't think its worth trying to get shield twice in two different traditions. but I thought there was a line somewhere about different spell casting traditions-which use different slots and the like, are different sources. So you could cast the same thing from it and it wouldn't be the same source.

Just like how spell slots are for your class you got those slots from only. (such as an occult sorcer with a bard dedication. those bard spell slots can only be used with spells via that dedication). So they're not the same "spell" so I don't see why one spell would disrupt another spell. As it isnt the same source. (but this example isn't the same because the shield from occult list is the same occult shield. while I don' think shield from occult and shield from arcane are the same spell. )

Or did they FAQ/Clarify somewhere about that?

"after you use Shield Block, the spell ends and you can't cast it again for 10 minutes" because unlike other effects (such as double status effect issues) the shield spell references the spell being restricted. But its not the spell that was used, if its coming from another tradition

Edit
From learn a spell
"ou can gain access to a new spell of your tradition from someone who knows that spell or from magical writing like a spellbook or scroll. If you can cast spells of multiple traditions, you can Learn a Spell of any of those traditions, but you must use the corresponding skill to do so. For example, if you were a cleric with the bard multiclass archetype, you couldn’t use Religion to add an occult spell to your bardic spell repertoire."
So you can't learn the same spell from a different tradition user. It has to be a new spell of your tradition. Not the same named spell from a different tradition. So the game itself distiguishses traditions as different spells right?
Unnless I'm misunderstanding casting.
Which.. is so very possible.

[Mellored]

Would a returning Javelin be considered a "reload 0" weapon? A lot of feats want that.

And is there any way to boost a Javelin/Shuriken range besides Ranger's Hunt Prey and Far Shot?

[graystone]

Mellored wrote:

Would a returning Javelin be considered a "reload 0" weapon? A lot of feats want that.

No, weapons with reload “—” must be drawn to be thrown: returning just remove the draw.

Mellored wrote:

And is there any way to boost a Javelin/Shuriken range besides Ranger's Hunt Prey and Far Shot?

Legendary shot lets you ignore 5 range increments.

[Wheldrake]

Most historical depictions of slingers show them without shields.

Those I was able to find that are equipped with shields appear to have small round shields (held only in hand) or crescent-shaped shields (stapped to their arms and held with a hand grip). We must surmise that they had enough freedom of movement with the shield hand to grab a bullet from the sack at their waist and load the slang, without ditching and retrieving the shield.

In PF2 you can do this with a buckler. But not with a wooden or steel shield, which correspond to a heavy shield in PF1.

[billybob]

Zwordsman wrote:

Buckler I think is the only choice currently. Which is a shame. I think it would've been great design space for Slings to work with shields. Since its not really hard to do logistically

i have to disagree with that.

The rules say you need a free hand
AND
That the adjustment of grip to free a hand, load then Place your hand in the grip needed to wield the weapon is part of the reload interact action.

This would indicate that a sling can be used and loaded with a single hand as that is the number of hands to use the item.

This would be synonymous with real historical usage of the sling YouTube has a perfect example of adjusting your grip while holding a large shield to load a sling the supple pouch and long strings allow for this

[shroudb]

With Nimble shield hand from Bastion archetype you can actually do this since reload is an Interact action.

[jdripley]

Quote:

You raise a magical shield of force. This counts as using the Raise a Shield action, giving you a +1 circumstance bonus to AC until the start of your next turn, but it doesn't require a hand to use.

While the spell is in effect, you can use the Shield Block reaction with your magic shield. The shield has Hardness 5. After you use Shield Block, the spell ends and you can't cast it again for 10 minutes. Unlike a normal Shield Block, you can use the spell's reaction against the magic missile spell.

Note: After you use Shield Block, the spell ends and you can't cast it again for 10 minutes.

So if the referent for "it" is "the spell," and the spell is "Shield," then you need to come up with an argument for how Shield is not Shield if it's from a different tradition.

I do not think you can reuse Shield after using it to block until the 10 minute time requirement is satisfied, no matter whether you have multiple traditions to access the spell from. Shield is Shield, it's not Arcane Shield or Divine Shield.

re: Shields and Hands:

Quote:

Your character must be wielding a shield in one hand to make use of it...

This is the general rule on Shields - it takes up a hand.

Bucklers have this additional text:

Quote:

It’s typically made of steel and strapped to your forearm. You can Raise a Shield with your buckler as long as you have that hand free or are holding a light object that’s not a weapon in that hand.

And Reload text:

Quote:

Reloading a ranged weapon and drawing a thrown weapon both require a free hand.

Thus with any non-buckler shield you cannot, under any circumstance, make any use of the Shield-bearing hand until you drop/stow the shield. Hard stop.

With Bucklers, ammunition certainly falls into the "Light Object that is not a weapon" category. Of course you can carry a bulkier object in the Buckler hand, you just can't raise the buckler while doing so - a bit of a side point there, but the point is, yes, you can make use of your Buckler hand while having the Buckler equipped. Hence the "you can use a buckler and a reload 1 (or 2 for that matter) weapon, so long as the weapon is in your other hand.

[shroudb]

jdripley wrote:

And Reload text:

Quote:

Reloading a ranged weapon and drawing a thrown weapon both require a free hand.

Thus with any non-buckler shield you cannot, under any circumstance, make any use of the Shield-bearing hand until you drop/stow the shield. Hard stop.

that's not correct:

Reload:

Quote:

While all weapons need some amount of time to get into position, many ranged weapons also need to be loaded and reloaded. This entry indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action. If an item takes 2 or more actions to reload, the GM determines whether they must be performed together as an activity, or you can spend some of those actions during one turn and the rest during your next turn.

reload is an Interact action.

Nimble shield hand:

Quote:

The hand you use to wield a shield counts as a free hand for the purposes of the Interact action.

So, the hand having a shield (any shield, regardless if it's a buckler or not) is counted as a Free hand for Reloading.

[Seisho]

Weirdly enough irl bucklers were explicitly held while in some configurations of greater shield the hand was usable (although optimal grip usually requires the hand)

Nimble shield hand basically describes how to realisticly use it, it kind of makes sense that you need a feat (but going into an archetype for that only is quite a load)

[graystone]

I call year old thread necro here... :P

But, yes, Nimble Shield Hand fixes all your reloading needs as far as hands are concerned.

[Seisho]

graystone wrote:

I call year old thread necro here... :P

But, yes, Nimble Shield Hand fixes all your reloading needs as far as hands are concerned.

But not the usage problems since crossbows still need 2 hands to properly be operated, too bad

[shroudb]

Seisho wrote:

graystone wrote:

I call year old thread necro here... :P

But, yes, Nimble Shield Hand fixes all your reloading needs as far as hands are concerned.

But not the usage problems since crossbows still need 2 hands to properly be operated, too bad

you can use hand crossbows though.

but yes, in general it only applies to 1 handed ranged weapons.

[graystone]

shroudb wrote:

Seisho wrote:

graystone wrote:

I call year old thread necro here... :P

But, yes, Nimble Shield Hand fixes all your reloading needs as far as hands are concerned.

But not the usage problems since crossbows still need 2 hands to properly be operated, too bad

you can use hand crossbows though.

but yes, in general it only applies to 1 handed ranged weapons.

And 1+ weapons. ;)

I'm not sure how 2 handed weapons being used with shields came into the debate though. It only affects crossbows heavier than hand crossbows and the halfling slingstaff as every other ranged weapon works.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Seisho wrote:

Weirdly enough irl bucklers were explicitly held while in some configurations of greater shield the hand was usable (although optimal grip usually requires the hand)

...

D&D/PF Bucklers (strapped to your arm and not occupying your hand) are apparently the exact opposite of Historical Bucklers (held in your hand and not strapped to anything): This difference dates back to at least 1991's AD&D2.0 Arms and Equipment Guide* and I can see three possible reasons for this:

• Honest Mistake: Back then, getting accurate information for an RPG wasn't nearly as easy as it is now and the writers might not have understood how bucklers actually work.
• Misnamed: The writers were thinking of a different type of shield and just called it a buckler in error or as a simplification (cue the 'Longswords are really Arming Swords' conversation here). The AaEG refers to bucklers as 'also known as target shields' which appear to be similar only in (very) general size, but it does fit the 'D&D Buckler' description better (two enarmes (straps) on the back, one of which you put your arm through and the other you grip with your hand).
• Deliberate Intent: The writers might have just decided there was little room for a 'quick draw shield' in the game but there was room for something that left that hand mostly free, so they deliberately made the 'D&D Buckler' to fill that gap.

It's probably a combination: the Target Shield seems more like a Light Shield in game, so they might have just scaled that down (either in error or to fill a gap) and called it a Buckler.

*I played AD&D1 in the early 80's, but basically dropped out of 'the scene' when I had to move in '84 and didn't get back in until I went to college in the early 90's, so I never bought the later 1st edition products. I don't see the Buckler in my 1st Edition PHB, but I can't say it wasn't added later in that edition...

[shroudb]

graystone wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Seisho wrote:

graystone wrote:

I call year old thread necro here... :P

But, yes, Nimble Shield Hand fixes all your reloading needs as far as hands are concerned.

But not the usage problems since crossbows still need 2 hands to properly be operated, too bad

you can use hand crossbows though.

but yes, in general it only applies to 1 handed ranged weapons.

And 1+ weapons. ;)

I'm not sure how 2 handed weapons being used with shields came into the debate though. It only affects crossbows heavier than hand crossbows and the halfling slingstaff as every other ranged weapon works.

unfortunately it doesn't apply to 1+ weapons:

Quote:

Some weapons require one hand to wield, and others require two. A few items, such as a longbow, list 1+ for its Hands entry. You can hold a weapon with a 1+ entry in one hand, but the process of shooting it requires using a second to retrieve, nock, and loose an arrow. This means you can do things with your free hand while holding the bow without changing your grip, but the other hand must be free when you shoot. To properly wield a 1+ weapon, you must hold it in one hand and also have a hand free.

so in order to shoot the bow (or other 1+ weapon) you actually need the 2nd hand to be free, not just for the reload, but for the actual attack action.

so if you have a shield in it you can't fire it.

from the current ranged weapons it should only work with slings, hand crossbows, and blowgun (if you conisder it a weapon lol).

[iNickedYerKnickers]

Bastion Archetype, Nimble Shield Hand

Quote:

You are so used to wielding a shield that you can do so even while using the hand that's holding it for other purposes. The hand you use to wield a shield counts as a free hand for the purposes of the Interact action. You can also hold another object in this hand (but you still can't use it to wield a weapon). . .