What do Wizards actually do in 2e that other classes don't do as well?
I'm interested to hear what people think.
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I don't think there's anything in PF2 that only one class can do. But some classes are obviously at an advantage.
I think Wizards can do well at adapting: they start out strong on some knowledges, have a lot of skills to be at least trained in, can change their spell selection. As a spellcaster you also often end up using two actions for a spell which means you have one left over that you could use for Recall Knowledge. A wizard should often be able to discover the weaknesses of a monster and have some way of exploiting them.
Sure, an alchemist can do that too. Like I said, no unique jobs.
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Flexible utility. It has always been the wizard niche. Cantrips in PF2 give them a fairly reliable weapon that uses their primary attribute and doesn't have to tie up their hands. And they can be pretty decent at a lot of very valuable skills including many of the knowledge based skills. As a long time fan of the wizard, I'd say the PF2 niche is about the same as it always has been: "Don't worry, I've got a spell for that."
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Flexible prepared arcane casting. They have innately flexible spellcasting, then they get theses that add to their flexibility in different ways as well as other feats and features that add to this flexibility even more.
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Yeah, strategic flexibility has always been their thing. Of note, 2E doubled down on daily preparation, no more open slots chosen later in the day, although Wizard has OPTION with Spell Substitution Thesis to gain more flexibility here VS vanilla Prepared casters.
In terms of what they do in terms of spell list AKA tradition, they overlap Druids/Occult in Material/Mental and also get the most "exceptions" to their Essence definitions, even if list was pared down a bit from 3.x/1E.
Their Metamagic is broader, particularly Conceal/Silent, and they can gain broader flexibility with Counterspell (albeit inherent limit of Prepared Counterspell still is relevant, even if they don't need specific spell to Counter). Also they do Spell Penetration (which is just +1 DC effectively, but math boosts are pretty rare).
Right now they are the class with more spells per day than any other class, with specialist starting with 1 more than even the Sorcerer at lvl 1 and having feats to increase it even more like Scroll Savant and the bond thingy.
Perform at kid's parties while wearing a pointy hat. Sorcerers just don't have the pizzaz needed for that.
Sorcerers? Lack pizzaz?
That's a new one.
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Pizza. Sorcerers just don't have the pizza needed for that.
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Pizza. Sorcerers just don't have the pizza needed for that.
Divine Sorcerers can cast Create Food and Enhance Victuals to make Pizza.
Wizards only have Create Food.
On topic of Wizard Feats: Conceal/Silent Metamagic and Spell Penetration, those notably are easily accessed by a Sorceror with MCD:Wizard due to low level, a build which IMHO easily synergizes with Sorceror (especially with Arcane Evo spellbook, although cross-tradition combo has it's own appeal). Wizards doing the reverse with MCD:Sorceror are probably mostly looking at Focus spells (and stealing Sorceror auto-Refocus, although the RAW on that might not work currently).
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Okay, so I there is big focus on flexibility by most people.
Is it the Arcane spell list provides flexibility that other spell lists don't have? Can you explain what a Primal or Occult caster couldn't do?
Or is it something else? What?
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Primal: Very few Enchantments and no Illusion spells. Pretty much all damage comes from elements wich can often be resisted. Has some trouble with enemy spellcasters, i.e. few caster disables, no Spell Turning, Globe of Invulnerability, Shadow Siphon etc.
Occult: Has some serious issues with targeting reflex save. Spells deal mostly Force and Mental damage, which are rarely resisted but also rarely appear as weakness. Very few spells with actual palpable effects like walls or clouds.
The arcane spell list can do all those things. Not all of them as good as a Primal or Occult caster, but still more than well enough.
The Divine spell list has lots of abilities that are beyond anything arcane can do, but the same is true vice versa. Arcane and Divine are just opposite traditions, so this is to be expected. The same is true when you compare Occult and Primal, btw.
Arcane is also the largest spell list in the game with 242 spells. Divine is 149, Occult 215 and Primal 173. This is out of 379 total spells in the CRB.
Having the largest spell list and (theroetical) access to all of those spells on a daily basis makes the Wizard the most flexible caster.
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Okay, so I there is big focus on flexibility by most people.
Is it the Arcane spell list provides flexibility that other spell lists don't have? Can you explain what a Primal or Occult caster couldn't do?
Or is it something else? What?
The flexibility comes from a combination of having the skills to know what you're dealing with, and the flexibility as a prepared caster to pick the right spells for that.
That said, it's not like sorcerers aren't adaptable. Wizards try to anticipate how many of each perfect spell they need, that's a problem sorcerers don't have so much, they can use a spell more times if it's needed. But wizards can use more different spells if they figure out what's going to be needed on this particular adventure.
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Pizza. Sorcerers just don't have the pizza needed for that.Divine Sorcerers can cast Create Food and Enhance Victuals to make Pizza.
Wizards only have Create Food.
You know what divine Sorcerers do with Enhance Victuals?
They put pineapple on pizza.
Pineapple.
PINEAPPLE.
That's blasphemy and the only way a sane person can react is by quickened disintegration.
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Okay, so I there is big focus on flexibility by most people.
Is it the Arcane spell list provides flexibility that other spell lists don't have? Can you explain what a Primal or Occult caster couldn't do?
Or is it something else? What?
The arcane list is fine and suits the flexibility granted by the class features. But you need to look at the wizard to see what makes the wizard unique, not the spell list they share with sorcerers.
The school, arcane bond, and thesis all in conjunction with prepared casting are what make the class flexible, they are also the unique features of the class which define the class's niche.
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Muscle Wizard.
Beat enemies to death with spellbook. More effective than casting, also more hilarious :)
In seriousness being able to have an 18 STR wizard not be a joke is kind of nice actually.
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Okay, so I there is big focus on flexibility by most people.
Is it the Arcane spell list provides flexibility that other spell lists don't have? Can you explain what a Primal or Occult caster couldn't do?
Or is it something else? What?
I love the wizard because I enjoy how I can eventually buy most of the spells I might ever want to cast and have most of the low level situational ones tucked away on a scroll or in a wand that I can use when needed but not take up space in my usual daily preparations. The cleric has this too, but has less effective general utility spells and the big hitters of the arcane list like invisibility, and haste. So for me, the PF2 appeal is, the arcane caster list, the prepared spells, and the class abilities, including the thesis, the focus spells, and the benefits of school specialization.
But it is also because their casting stat is intelligence. My too favorite wizards are the illusionist and the diviner. The diviner took a knock down in power from PF1, but was so over the top powerful in that version that it was justified. ( always acting in the surprise round and rocking a +1/2 level to initiative made them very very good at rocket tag). The illusionist was boosted significantly and made much easier to play without having to create a treatise with your GM about how illusions work.
Both of these wizards need to know things and the easiest way to have a character good at knowing things is to have INT also work well as your attack stat, which is not the case for the alchemist.
What is wrong with a Universalist Wizard?
The specializations are really not worth doing.
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PF2 Wizards can wear armor (with a feat) and use their INT for ranged spell attacks-- so having a good DEX is no longer a requirement. Boost STR and CON instead and be a self-buffing War Wizard! Or, boost CHA and WIS and be the party face-- with a little help from Enchantment & Illusion spells, everyone will love you!
With the right spell loadout, Wizards can fill just about any role-- and their chosen role can change from day to day depending on what they prepare.
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What is wrong with a Universalist Wizard?
The specializations are really not worth doing.
What? Why not? I'm not really seeing any downsides to specialist wizards. Insofar as I'm aware, there aren't even prohibited schools anymore.
What? Why not? I'm not really seeing any downsides to specialist wizards. Insofar as I'm aware, there aren't even prohibited schools anymore.What is wrong with a Universalist Wizard?
The specializations are really not worth doing.
It's probably about Bond Conservation and the Universalist's ability to use it more often.
The feat is ridiculously overrated in my opinion, but that's another story altogether.
PF2 Wizards can wear armor (with a feat)
Light armour becomes useless at level 11. Medium and Heavy require 2 or 3 feats, which is a huge investment and you're still running behind in AC.
with a little help from Enchantment & Illusion spells, everyone will love you!
I get your pun, but I really don't buy the usefulness of Enchantment and Illusion spells being that high in PF2. Sometimes they're nice, sure, but I feel people are still operating under PF1.
With the right spell loadout, Wizards can fill just about any role-- and their chosen role can change from day to day depending on what they prepare.
I think that if you look into the other spell lists, you'll find Primal can do the same.
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I really don't buy the usefulness of Enchantment and Illusion spells being that high in PF2.
I agree on Enchantment, but Illusions are great in PF2. Utility like Illusory Object haven't realy lost much (if any) of their power. Many new Illusion spells can deal actual (mental) damage, often paired with some powerful effect on a crit fail. Illusory Creature can trigger monster weakness with its attacks and attack bonus and AC scale with your level. You don't even need to heighten it beyond 2nd level to get some really great results from it.
I think that if you look into the other spell lists, you'll find Primal can do the same.
Illusions, teleportation, dealing non-elemental damage, dealing with enemy spells (beyond Dispel Magic) are all things the primal spell list can't do very well or at all.
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PF2 Wizards can wear armor (with a feat)Light armour becomes useless at level 11. Medium and Heavy require 2 or 3 feats, which is a huge investment and you're still running behind in AC.
with a little help from Enchantment & Illusion spells, everyone will love you!I get your pun, but I really don't buy the usefulness of Enchantment and Illusion spells being that high in PF2. Sometimes they're nice, sure, but I feel people are still operating under PF1.
I think that if you look into the other spell lists, you'll find Primal can do the same.
With the right spell loadout, Wizards can fill just about any role-- and their chosen role can change from day to day depending on what they prepare.
It sounds like your primary interest in casting is being a blaster or a transmuter. The druid is really good at filling those roles and gets many of the advantages of being a prepared caster that a wizard gets, plus the medium armor (limited by no metal). If the storm druid or the wild druid fits what you want from the prepared caster role, awesome! Personally, blasting spells are unexciting to me and a druid is only going to be good at Nature and maybe religion as far as knowledge. Which can be fine, but I like the know it all wizard and it is easier to justify Wisdom as a secondary stat than Intelligence because wisdom also boosts an important defense.
As I have said before, I'd be happy to run a wizard in anyone's campaign that is curious about how they function in play.
Light armour becomes useless at level 11.
"Useless" is not a synonym for "I don't like it".
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"Useless" is not a synonym for "I don't like it".
No, it's a synonym for "I read the rules and understand that wearing light armour would reduce my AC". Although I did miss the level, it's level 13 Wizards get Expert with Unarmoured.
It sounds like your primary interest in casting is being a blaster or a transmuter.
Transmuter, yes, blaster, absolutely no. I actually think you can make a good Wizard blaster.
The druid is really good at filling those roles and gets many of the advantages of being a prepared caster that a wizard gets, plus the medium armor (limited by no metal). If the storm druid or the wild druid fits what you want from the prepared caster role, awesome!
I want to play a high Int Wizard. I just get very jaded when I see Druids and think "this character would work mechanically so much better as a Druid", and that is for a concept which should be right in the wizards concept playground.
Personally, blasting spells are unexciting to me and a druid is only going to be good at Nature and maybe religion as far as knowledge. Which can be fine, but I like the know it all wizard and it is easier to justify Wisdom as a secondary stat than Intelligence because wisdom also boosts an important defense.
I don't see why. I value Int much more; Wis is okay but more skills is more skills.
As I have said before, I'd be happy to run a wizard in anyone's campaign that is curious about how they function in play.
I am playing a low level Str-based Wizard (Transmuter) as we speak. It is unbelieveably uninspiring. I even went with armour focus, hoping Hellknight dedications will be worth it (Armiger is definitively not worth it but whatever). Not the first time I play mechanically bad character for the sake of a concept.
I do look forward to the fun using Shifting Form with heavy armour, but. When I see how much better this would work with Druid mechanics, it's just sad. And that's for a concept which requires no particular connections to nature, meaning there is no RP reason to go Druid.
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What I really see is that Paizo hasn't really considered what trying to balance the 4 traditions of magic would do to a Wizard. Wizard is the one class which has NOTHING except spellcasting. If their tradition is no better than any of the other 4, and if all they have is slight boosts to blasting and save-or-suck (which most of the meaningful Wizard bonuses seem to be), then this makes Wizards specifically highly damaged in comparison to other primary casters which have significant non-spellcasting mechanics.
Even their Metamagic selection is poor and limited. Conceal spell? I mean, nice and sometimes very useful, but only in very limited subset of campaigns and hurt by the fact you can't really use it for prebuffing while chatting the villain due to ridiculously short spell durations. They didn't even get extending spell durations (despite Sorcerer getting it for some reason).
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Sounds like you would prefer playing a Druid over a Wizard. That's fine. I prefer playing Rogues myself... but I don't get on the forums to complain about how Paladins are useless because they don't get Sneak Attack or DEX to damage.
I would NOT prefer playing Druid over Wizard. I just hate that in this version, Arcane spell list is on par with Primal, and yet as a Wizard Arcane is all my characters have, whereas Druids get plenty of other advantages.
Your example is exactly the opposite of my problem. A correct example would be like you prefer playing Rogues, but knowing that Paladins can easily get Sneak Attack (equivalent) or Dex to damage while still having all their Paladin abilities.
At level 1, wizards trade access to shield, exchange image, floating disk, grim tendrils, illusory disguise, illusory object, item facade, lock, mage armour, magic aura, magic missile, magic weapon, ray of enfeeblement, sleep, true strike, and unseen servant...
For disrupt undead, detect poison, heal, magic fang, pass without trace, purify food and drink, and shillelagh.
(Also some summon spells and cantrips.)
I'm pretty sure most people would say the first list is quite a bit more diverse.
At level 1, wizards trade access to shield, exchange image, floating disk, grim tendrils, illusory disguise, illusory object, item facade, lock, mage armour, magic aura, magic missile, magic weapon, ray of enfeeblement, sleep, true strike, and unseen servant...
For disrupt undead, detect poison, heal, magic fang, pass without trace, purify food and drink, and shillelagh.
(Also some summon spells and cantrips.)
I'm pretty sure most people would say the first list is quite a bit more diverse.
At 1st level, wizard will get to choose between 5 of those spells; 6 if they're specialist. Druid gets to choose from their whole list.
Not to mention some of the spells you list for Wizard are relatively useless (Magic Aura, really? and new Unseen Servant is really bad), while you did not mention spells of similar usefullness that Druids get (ex. Negate Aroma). And did not mention some of the nice spells Druid get, like Guidance.
So you know. They're not exactly the same. But they're in neighbourhood. Whereas Druids get a bunch of other useful things like Weapon&Armour proficiencies, and Wizards... Don't.
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At level 1, wizards trade access to shield, exchange image, floating disk, grim tendrils, illusory disguise, illusory object, item facade, lock, mage armour, magic aura, magic missile, magic weapon, ray of enfeeblement, sleep, true strike, and unseen servant...
For disrupt undead, detect poison, heal, magic fang, pass without trace, purify food and drink, and shillelagh.
(Also some summon spells and cantrips.)
I'm pretty sure most people would say the first list is quite a bit more diverse.
At 1st level, wizard will get to choose between 5 of those spells; 6 if they're specialist. Druid gets to choose from their whole list.
Not to mention some of the spells you list for Wizard are relatively useless (Magic Aura, really? and new Unseen Servant is really bad), while you did not mention spells of similar usefullness that Druids get (ex. Negate Aroma). And did not mention some of the nice spells Druid get, like Guidance.
So you know. They're not exactly the same. But they're in neighbourhood. Whereas Druids get a bunch of other useful things like Weapon&Armour proficiencies, and Wizards... Don't.
I think I agree with some of your analysis here. There are some types of wizards that were possible in PF1 that are better for now as other classes. Transmuter / shapeshifter being one of them, although Druid’s were pretty good for that build inn PF1 too. The modularity of the new system though makes it pretty easy to advocate for better arcane transmutation options, although that issue in particular seems tied directly to the move away from schools of magic being significant to all casters and isolated more by magical essences. It could be that transmutation really shouldn’t be a Wizard option in PF2, but couldn’t be cut due to player expectations, so the end result was a sub par option. Right now the necromancer is kinda in that boat too.
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Primal covers the essences Matter and life. It is the most "physical" of all traditions and Transmutation alters the physical form and/or attributes of objects and creatures. I'd say the Druid being better at Transmutation than a Wizard makes perfectly sense. More than 25% of the Primal spell list are transmutation spells, after all.
Ironically, the Wizard - the only class with the option to specialize in a certain school - is the Jack of all Trades when it comes to spellcasting. He has the great flexibility of the Arcane spell list without being limited by a low number of spells known like the sorcerer.
Primal covers the essences Matter and life. It is the most "physical" of all traditions and Transmutation alters the physical form and/or attributes of objects and creatures. I'd say the Druid being better at Transmutation than a Wizard makes perfectly sense. More than 25% of the Primal spell list are transmutation spells, after all.
According to whom is Primal the most "physical"? There is nothing to suggest that in the lore.
Not to mention Primal is supposed be restoring and maintaining nature, not changing it. Druids being better than Wizards at changing things from natural to unnatural form makes no sense.Ironically, the Wizard - the only class with the option to specialize in a certain school - is the Jack of all Trades when it comes to spellcasting.
Exactly. They should've bitten the bullet and either removed Specialists or go all in on them. As is, specialist Wizards are nowhere.
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According to whom is Primal the most "physical"? There is nothing to suggest that in the lore.
It's in the essences. Matter is by definition physical and Life covers all things living, which tends to include living Matter as well.
Not to mention Primal is supposed be restoring and maintaining nature, not changing it. Druids being better than Wizards at changing things from natural to unnatural form makes no sense.
Not sure what about transmutation spells is unnatural. Even the most iconic ability of the druid is a transmutation effect, changing the shape of a living being.
Ironically, the Wizard - the only class with the option to specialize in a certain school - is the Jack of all Trades when it comes to spellcasting.Exactly. They should've bitten the bullet and either removed Specialists or go all in on them. As is, specialist Wizards are nowhere.
You're complaining that the transmuter is no longer as powerful as he used to be. I can't imagine the backlash (in general, not from you in particular) if they removed the specialists completely.
Anyway, the wizard is fine. It might no longer be the perfect class for you, but that doesn't mean it's bad by any means.
Edition changes come with design changes and Paizo decided that the Primal list is the best at Transmutation, just like Occult is now the best at Illusions. The wizard is still a very close second best at all magical things except healing. That's his shtick and it's a powerful one.
It's unlikely to change anytime soon. I don't think discussing this further is gonna do anything, so I for one will leave it at that.
Primal covers the essences Matter and life. It is the most "physical" of all traditions and Transmutation alters the physical form and/or attributes of objects and creatures. I'd say the Druid being better at Transmutation than a Wizard makes perfectly sense. More than 25% of the Primal spell list are transmutation spells, after all.According to whom is Primal the most "physical"? There is nothing to suggest that in the lore.
Not to mention Primal is supposed be restoring and maintaining nature, not changing it. Druids being better than Wizards at changing things from natural to unnatural form makes no sense.
Ironically, the Wizard - the only class with the option to specialize in a certain school - is the Jack of all Trades when it comes to spellcasting.Exactly. They should've bitten the bullet and either removed Specialists or go all in on them. As is, specialist Wizards are nowhere.
There is no caster like the illusionist, and both the illusionist and the diviner have focus powers that are thematic and relevant.
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It's in the essences. Matter is by definition physical and Life covers all things living, which tends to include living Matter as well.
It's not in essences? What? You've just came up with it.
Let me try. Changing shape requires changing the mental landscape to be properly controlling your new shape, hence Transmutation is a mental thing and not just physical.
Not sure what about transmutation spells is unnatural. Even the most iconic ability of the druid is a transmutation effect, changing the shape of a living being.
Changing shape into an animal. Not changing shape in general. Nice try at ignoring parts of the argument.
You're complaining that the transmuter is no longer as powerful as he used to be.
Nice try at switching the argument. I did not mention the power level of anything compared to previous edition. Just the relative access of different classes within editions.
I can't imagine the backlash (in general, not from you in particular) if they removed the specialists completely.
I'd be happier with leaving them out, than putting them in without support. Necromancer is very limited currently. Conjuration carries on, at least it's focus spell combines nicely with it's core concept of summoning. Transmuter is inferior to a Druid. Enchanters are inferior to Bards.
Anyway, the wizard is fine. It might no longer be the perfect class for you, but that doesn't mean it's bad by any means.
It's bad because Druids already have so many niches, while Wizards have none. You all keep saying "they're flexible" ignoring that just means they aren't actually good at anything except blasting.
Edition changes come with design changes and Paizo decided that the Primal list is the best at Transmutation, just like Occult is now the best at Illusions. The wizard is still a very close second best at all magical things except healing. That's his shtick and it's a powerful one.
Hardly. It's just a sign that Paizo doesn't see a niche for Wizards.
There is no caster like the illusionist, and both the illusionist and the diviner have focus powers that are thematic and relevant.
To be honest, I haven't focused much on illusionist, but they could've left some Specialists in and said others are coming in future. or just cut them completely if they're not prepared to make them actually good.
I find the Conjuration and Abjuration to have thematic and relevant Focus powers. Illusion is fine, yeah.
Divination is pretty bad. I mean, if you roll a good number it's great. But there's no guarantee you will roll well; what if you roll a 1? Congrats, you just wasted an action and a Focus point.
It's in the essences. Matter is by definition physical and Life covers all things living, which tends to include living Matter as well.It's not in essences? What? You've just came up with it.
Let me try. Changing shape requires changing the mental landscape to be properly controlling your new shape, hence Transmutation is a mental thing and not just physical.
Essences. As in Matter and Life essences, also known as Material and Vital. Primal is intrisically focused on the physical world.
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Spells can bleed over into another thing. Doesn't make them really of that Essence instead of the main essences. And shapeshifting is changing a physical, living thing, so it's clearly of those two. The mental landscape, is, AT BEST, bleeding over to a little of Mental.
Hey, the Divine list's changes don't usually have much that changes the basic form, other than bigger and maybe add wings! No mental change there, and it's not an Essence they get. Does Occult, which gets neither relevant Essence, even have much in the way of those shapeshifts?
Arcane, meanwhile, gets Material and Mental, and they get some of the shapeshifts, too. Indeed not as strong in a straight-up melee, though (lower hit points, lower physical saves...). But since when was a classic wizard supposed to be in melee, anyway?
Utility. Wield your spells like a knife, not a bludgeon. I've decided my next build for my emporium will be a Transmuter; I'll try and remember to post it here, too, when it's ready.
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Okay, so I there is big focus on flexibility by most people.
Is it the Arcane spell list provides flexibility that other spell lists don't have? Can you explain what a Primal or Occult caster couldn't do?
Or is it something else? What?
A lot of abilities in arcane thesis add adaptability. They are all pretty good and most have effects that you use different ways each day. Spell substitution is the one that probably gives you the most "versatility" out of combat though.
On a separate note, I like a lot of stuff in enchantment (which you mention somewhere else in here). Hideous laughter is great for shutting down a tough guy's reaction and fear and paralyze is also great to use against bosses since putting a solo enemy down 1 action is pretty okay (which you get when the enemy succeeds) and shutting down their whole turn is great (which you get if they fail). The third level version of fear and the 5th level version of command are also pretty nice against hordes of losers, especially with reach spell. I also think daze is a pretty alright combat cantrip when arc lightning is inadvisable if only because you can still use your third action to chuck a dagger or whatever at some loser. You can also use it for its maybe intended purpose: incapacitating a foe without killing them.
On a separate separate note, Drain Bond essentially lets wizards cast their highest level spell slot 1 more time than any other class (save for cleric with its more limited channel). That generally lets wizards drop 1 max-level spell every encounter and still expect to not run out of spells that day.
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Divination is pretty bad. I mean, if you roll a good number it's great. But there's no guarantee you will roll well; what if you roll a 1? Congrats, you just wasted an action and a Focus point.
Roll twice and take the better on a skill or save is a pretty bad ability because that bonus roll might be worse than your regular? That's a ... curious take on it. Is true strike pretty bad because you might roll a 1 on the other die? I get that this one has a time delay, but that doesn't take away the advantage granted.
Divination is pretty bad. I mean, if you roll a good number it's great. But there's no guarantee you will roll well; what if you roll a 1? Congrats, you just wasted an action and a Focus point.Roll twice and take the better on a skill or save is a pretty bad ability because that bonus roll might be worse than your regular? That's a ... curious take on it. Is true strike pretty bad because you might roll a 1 on the other die? I get that this one has a time delay, but that doesn't take away the advantage granted.
Not to mention it is good in combat and out of combat. There are few focus powers that are as versatile and likely to see as much use
Roll twice and take the better on a skill or save is a pretty bad ability because that bonus roll might be worse than your regular? That's a ... curious take on it. Is true strike pretty bad because you might roll a 1 on the other die? I get that this one has a time delay, but that doesn't take away the advantage granted.
I stand corrected. When you put it that way, yeah, I agree it is a pretty awesome power.
Conjuration carries on, at least it's focus spell combines nicely with it's core concept of summoning. [...] I find the Conjuration and Abjuration to have thematic and relevant Focus powers.
The conjuration focus spell is exceptionally poor. Even if you're playing a summoner for some reason, it is very rarely worth using Augment Summoning. Because the list of conjuration spells is broad and powerful, conjurers were given an extremely borderline Focus spell.
Divination is pretty bad. I mean, if you roll a good number it's great. But there's no guarantee you will roll well; what if you roll a 1? Congrats, you just wasted an action and a Focus point.
The Divination focus power is bonkers good. As in PF1, Diviners have been given a wildly potent special ability to compensate for choosing a spell school that doesn't have a huge number of general-purpose spells that are easy to make sure of every day. (PF2 compounds this by making many Divination spells Uncommon.) Its in-combat utility is okay, but its out-of-combat utility is incredible. (It doesn't work with downtime activities, but it works with a pretty broad swath of other things.) It is better than rolling twice, and PF2 makes rolling twice extra good because grades of success are now part of so many more checks.
You all keep saying "they're flexible" ignoring that just means they aren't actually good at anything except blasting.Are they had at battlefield control and debuffing? It looks to me like there are several field control, debuff, and utility spells on their list alongside some blasts, so why do you say they are good at blasting and nothing else?
Conjuration carries on, at least it's focus spell combines nicely with it's core concept of summoning. [...] I find the Conjuration and Abjuration to have thematic and relevant Focus powers.The conjuration focus spell is exceptionally poor. Even if you're playing a summoner for some reason, it is very rarely worth using Augment Summoning. Because the list of conjuration spells is broad and powerful, conjurers were given an extremely borderline Focus spell.
I agree that the effect of Augment Summon is pretty borderline, but I think the spell as a whole is a rather solid tool of you are already going to be a summoner. You are already giving up an action to sustain a summon, so any round you need to move you shut off most relevant spells anyway, so I'm that context having a 1-action tool to enhance the usefulness of a spell you've already cast is nice. You don't want to cast it for its own merit, but there are plenty of situations where you still want to cast it because you had to move or whatever anyway.
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Augment Summoning is Level 3 Heroism, except it only targets creatures you summoned, applies to more stats, takes 1 Action instead of 2, has no range limitations, and can be re-cast multiple times throughout the day. That's what you consider bad?