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They get 0 bonus slots.
This is why I figure one of the first class archetypes we see will be a cleric one which trades away divine font, for all those Dwarf Warpriests out there.
This is why I figure one of the first class archetypes we see will be a cleric one which trades away divine font, for all those Dwarf Warpriests out there.
Is it pretty much confirmed that there will be class archetypes that only trade out class abilities (or also trade them out)?
That would be an intriguing way of adding multiple layers to a character. Especially if they do skill feat only archetypes as well...
For a cleric it would have to be a doctrine though, right?
Like you get no feats at level 1? Or will the class archetypes be more like PF1e replacements? Where is this confirmed?
Class Archetypes rules are in the CRB but there’s none provided. That was just there for future proofing.
The rules are that if they change a lvl1 feature you can take the archetype for “free” and exchange the features at lvl1 but when you hit lvl2 you automatically take the dedication feat as your lvl2 feat choice.
Why exactly beyond crunch would your cleric have an 8 Charisma though? Hard to convince people your gods view is right if you are uncharismatic.
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Why exactly beyond crunch would your cleric have an 8 Charisma though? Hard to convince people your gods view is right if you are uncharismatic.
Torag needs people to operate the forges (Craft, Int) or to fight his people's battles (not-Cha) more than he needs evangelists. Dwarves should already defer to their creator, as it's their duty as Dwarves. They convince people of the correctness of Torag's code via results, not via honeyed words.
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This is why I figure one of the first class archetypes we see will be a cleric one which trades away divine font, for all those Dwarf Warpriests out there.Is it pretty much confirmed that there will be class archetypes that only trade out class abilities (or also trade them out)?
That would be an intriguing way of adding multiple layers to a character. Especially if they do skill feat only archetypes as well...
Mark Seifter pretty much confirmed that a key feature of a class archetype is that you want to delete an ability from the class. If you just want to add something to the class, then you need only define one or more class feats.
Does he also need meek uninspiring people?
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Does he also need meek uninspiring people?
Probably not a huge fan of meek, but nothing about 8 Cha demands meekness.
Uninspiring, again, probably doesn't matter much. Your assertion seems to be based around the assumption that proselytizing is one of a cleric's primary roles, but there are many positions where that simply wouldn't be the case. The insular nature of Torag's faith probably makes it a pretty low priority, even.
Apologies, but in this edition of pathfinder if you are not boosting CHA for your cleric, then you are just being ignorant of how the game system works.
DnD has made WIS the ULTIMATE STAT for Clerics, but, in Pathfinder 2e wisdom only matters for attack spells and to add a couple points to some other spells. It doesn't even affect how much you can heal for.
Dwarf priest min wis = 14 (max 18 for 1st level)
A dwarf could boost their cha to 12 at start (2 heals auto leveling) and/or pick medicine skill + associated feats. IMHO Medicine skill + Battle medicine + ward medic + all the other Medicine feats are OP and put up a middle finger to spell casting healers.
So, you can run around w/a 9 wis and be practically as effective as someone w/a 40+ wis... as long as you stick w/ buffs/non-attack spells.
I'd imagine, if you're a warpriest you would be using a 2h (GORUM!) or 1h+shield w/ 3att/rnd or 2+shield block as their primary mode of dps? Wis, int and dex(if using heavy armor) = dump stats, tho wis/dex would still be nice for saving throws.
I really did like how they made Full plate gain 2 + armor’s potency rune as DR and gain the Bulwark trait = +3 Ref save. which makes your dex save from stats irrelevant. why put points into Dx if you're going heavy armor?
A cleric with 12 wis should be viable, but so should a cleric with 8 cha or 8 strength.
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I agree, Wis is trash for Warpriest. I'm playing cloistered in my current campaign. I'm playing a gnome w/ Str 8, 18 Wis, and 16 Cha.
Ignoring CHA as a cleric is just throwing away auto-leveling heal spells you could have for free.
As a devotee of Irori I usually split my channels between heal and harm.
In my current campaign I'm using my channeled heals + medicine as my healing abilities. It leaves all my cleric spells for buffs, cures and attack/debuff spells
What exactly was the reasoning behind Divine Font being based on Charisma anyways?
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What exactly was the reasoning behind Divine Font being based on Charisma anyways?
Literally just that charisma needed more stuff and paladin divine powers being based on charisma already gave a justification. Or that was the reason in 1st edition for channel energy, and Divine Font is just 2nd edition channel energy.
Is it correct that while CHA determines number of bonus Font slots,
WIS is still key casting stat for DC, so WIS will still be used for Font DC checks?
If so, that's less CHA dependent than 1E, and kind of a weird dynamic considering some Clerics
may wish to focus on CHA for Font usage and defocus normal spells away from any that have DC or otherwise use WIS...
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What exactly was the reasoning behind Divine Font being based on Charisma anyways?
I'd imagine it has to do with Divine Font being the 2e incarnation of the 1e Cleric's Channel Energy power, which was based off of Charisma.
The main difference appears to be that Channel Energy wasn't powerful enough to warrant increasing your Cleric's Charisma to boost, while Divine Font is.
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Your Wisdom also impacts your DC when someone tries to counteract one of your spells. Having a low Wisdom on top of your lower spell casting proficiency is a recipe for having your buffs be dispelled away easily. If you play in a game where dispel magic does not get thrown around its less of a big deal.
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Oh i'm a spell casting cleric... run to the front? Rofl NOES, i'm standing back and casting buffs/debuffs/heals.
I'm still 1000% making CHA for clerics the MOST OMG MOST important stat.
Depending on race you can start with a cha 16 then after the 5/10/15/20 boost + apex item of +2 gives you give you a stat of 21/23 for cha = you effectively gained 7 Level 10 heal/harm spells... let that sink in for a bit. You gain 7! level 10 spells. Considering each level of cleric you get 3 spells... ya drink it in.
and maybe some other magic item or spell to mod this?
Waaat?
I don't like the advice people throw around where people say "only CHA no WIS".
In fact, Clerics /can't/ have negative WIS, because WIS is by RAW mandatory to boost in Class phase of stat gen.
Having lots of CHA but no WIS means missing out on alot of power in terms of using those Fonts offensively.
I mean, expecting to use them solely for healing (if Positive Font, or Negative with Undead/Dhampir allies) is OK,
but if people are going to throw around advice, they should need to mention how dumping WIS is trade-off that weakens Font, too.
Although I've suggested making choice of WIS or CHA the Class bonus stat, and using CHA for Font DC...
But that isn't RAW currently, so the reality needs to be dealth with.
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Font is strong and healing is nice, but even if your Cleric never casts a single offensive spell there is lots of nasty stuff to remove in this version of the game. You will want Wisdom for Remove Disease, Remove Curse and all sorts of other important spells. Not to mention if you intend to be a full service healer and not just a combat healer you will probably want to invest in Medicine.
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Dumping WIS entirely for a warpriest is iffy. Keeping it at 14-16 is possibly a better use of ability boosts than getting it to 18, and that sounds about right.
Wisdom is a pretty good stat to have anyway, particular in an environment where you get 4 ability boosts. It boosts a critical saving throw that protects you from effects that can often take you out of a fight. It improves Perception which affects searching, detecting lies, not being sneaked up on, and Initiative. It has a host of incredibly useful skills like Nature, Religion, Survival, and Medicine. Wisdom is an incredibly stat to have. Maybe too good.
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Yeah, with Medium Armor Proficiency or better, Wisdom is probably the best stat in the game after your attack stat (if you lack Medium Armor Proficiency, Dex is probably better due to the importance of AC).
Class aside, the other stats are mostly equal, with Cha slightly behind but not by all that much.
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Even for a Warpriest I still view having a pretty good WIS is good. If not for spell casting but for medicine. Especially with magical healing not nearly there like in 1e. Treat deadly wounds is an amazing skill. Then investing in to all the feats in the Medicine Skill is great. Ward Medic is great for outside healing. The ability to treat multiple people at once can help significantly. Then continual healing is another great feat, only being immune to treat deadly wounds for 10 minutes vs and hour. So you use Divine Font in combat to keep everyone in the fight long enough to win, then Treat deadly wounds afterwards.
Then for one of the best feat, IMHO, is Godless healing. So you can't have a patron deity to get but being able to immune to Battle medicine for only and hour vs a whole day is great. It also gives and additional 5 hit points when Treat Deadly wounds and Battle medicine have been used on you. So having a decent to high wis for a warpriest would be beneficial. Then have a decent cha for emergency uses of Heal. Both stats are very valuable to the Cleric.
I think cloistered cleric with MC into paladin is pretty much superior to the warpriest.
Eh, expert in heavy at 14 for at least 2 class feats doesn't seem worth it to me, just stay unarmored.
I believe warpriest will be much better in play than people think. It has a definite niche of full caster who isn't afraid of melee. Even if they won't be able to go toe to toe with the big bad, they'll still be able to handle the mooks without other characters having to save them from melee or wasting actions running away. Ditto for their spell effects with lower DCs. In fact, they like it when the mooks come after them, because 2 action spell and one Strike is probably their optimal turn. I think 2nd edition will likely feature more encounters consisting of a lot of small enemies, so that shores up their weaknesses in some ways through the new adventure building meta.
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I think that's the point though, when you say Warpriest niche is "full caster who isn't afraid of melee" ...well... You can pretty much do that niche just fine with CC+Champion, with better AC in Heavy whose increased STR req is normal for melee focus anyways. Aren't exclusive class paths supposed to yield something that is inherently distinct? Or at least non-trivial to try to match? This isn't even about some weirdo niche minmax build, this is something any CC of "martial deity" probably should consider, but also legit for others who don't plan on focusing on melee weapon attacks but appreciate the Armor.
And what is trade off? Warpriest grants a General Feat and Med Armor, while CC grants Domain Initiate... which is something entirely reasonable for Warpriests to also want, so saying CC+Champion is 2 Feats behind is not fully acccurate IMHO, it's more like 1 if Warpriest wants Domain Initiate, and if CC+Champion buys Expert Heavy they get BETTER AC than Medium Warpriest not just equal. So Warpriest gets better Fort and an extra General Feat and maybe 1AC if CC+Champion doesn't buy Expert. Free Deadly Simplicity isn't a real benefit, Deities with good Martial weapons exist, DS just makes others viable (and only power rationale for other Deities would be their Domains, which need Feat). Warpriest gets temporary/early weapon proficiency advantage, but I don't see justification for that to not continue later.
I mean, that is current RAW, we already expect Errata around proficiencies and the like with Simple/Unarmed, so IMHO it isn't that unlikely for Errrata also improving SOME OF Martial, DeificWpn, or other features like Weapon/Crit/Armor Spec to more clearly define it VS CC... i.e. if it gives Martial proficiency, why not scale to Expert to use it at high level, which still trails martial classes? I also wonder about possibility of Warpriest allowing Class bonus Stat to be STR/DEX or even CHA, which would also help further distinguish them but not really impede on 'real martial' features. (Class bonus/Key stat also involves dynamic with Font DC, still hinged on WIS now)
I also think you can retrain it under the rules counting as one of the long 30+ days retrainings so if you like warpriest early on but dislikes what happens with it later I think you're allowed to switch and then grab a champion dedication or something. 30+ days of downtime is a lot but so is a 4 level deadline, if you ask your GM he can probably make room for it.
This really makes me enthused about the "it doesn't matter if it loses all value at it's primary schtick at mid-high levels" design ideology.
It doesn't matter because you can retrain it. Brilliant.