So normally you can’t enchant a natural weapon because they
1: aren’t masterwork,
2: can’t be upgraded to masterwork since you have to make a weapon masterwork when you make the weapon, not after the fact, and
3: you can’t cast Masterwork Transformation on them because it targets items, and your body parts aren’t items.
But here is the thing. Natural weapons that are from an item, like the gore attack from a Helm of the Mammoth Lord, the wing attacks from the Dread Wing enchantment on armor, etc, are in fact items, meaning they theoretically can be made masterwork when they are crafted, and even if not, they should qualify for Masterwork Transformation, since they are weapons, and they are items.
So can you enchant said manufactured natural weapons with weapon enchantments?
Yes, I know the Amulet of Mighty Fists exists, but I’m not asking about that, so please stay on topic.
No. Not at all items can be made masterwork. As far as I’m aware only manufactured weapons and armors can. My question to you is why *not* just AoMF? Do you have some necklace that’s just that good?
CMantle wrote: No. Not at all items can be made masterwork. As far as I’m aware only manufactured weapons and armors can. My question to you is why *not* just AoNA? Do you have some necklace that’s just that good? The reason for this is that could start adding effective enhancements to all sort of stuff.. have 2 different +1 armor special abilities in the same armor is 4,000gp, but having one on your actual armor and one on your belt is only 2,000
CMantle wrote: No. Not at all items can be made masterwork. As far as I’m aware only manufactured weapons and armors can. Tools, instruments, manacles/fetters, tattoos, shovels, holy symbols and thumbscrews all have masterwork items explicitly mentioned.
If a helm of the mammoth lord could be made masterwork, I think it would have to be. It isn't.
deuxhero wrote: CMantle wrote: No. Not at all items can be made masterwork. As far as I’m aware only manufactured weapons and armors can. Tools, instruments, manacles/fetters, tattoos, and shovels all have explicit masterworks. I considered exceptions when I wrote it. I assumed people would be smart enough to know what I meant. I assumed wrong. Show me the +1 through +5 tools, instruments, manacles/fetters, tattoos, and shovels. I’m about getting sick of you exceptionists who are here just to play contrary without adding anything to the original question.
Note that a couple odd items like catfolk claw blades almost do this, but they are exceptions.
Reksew_Trebla wrote:
So can you enchant said manufactured natural weapons with weapon enchantments?
It is effectively making an entirely new but similar magic item. If the GM is ok with the proposed item existing, he should come up with an upgrade cost, or say you have to make a totally new item.
Generally speaking, it isn't done because these sort of items are suppose to be a bonus to what your character is already doing, not an entire focus of your character. Most of these items pre-date the point where players are trying to create natural attack based PC. So if your extra 'neat' attack isn't effective because it isn't a magic weapon wasn't a big concern when these sorts of items were introduced.
Now? It really depends if the GM wants to encourage that play style or not. It would be reasonable to make the costs of enchanting such equipment be equal to a normal weapon. It would even be reasonable to double or triple the price because the GM wishes to discourage it, or considers it difficult for some reason. And the GM could just disallow it.
Yeah, natural attacks granting items are crazy enough (and often cheezy enough) as they are, but just so you can cheat the enhancement cost system? Hell no. If I were your GM and you'd ask me, I'd laugh at you, than laugh at you some more, then say "no".
Here's why it doesn't work RAW: Weapon enchantments can only be placed on a weapon, via Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Helm of the Mammoth Lord may grant a natural weapon, but it isn't a weapon on its own, and thus not a valid target for the feat or these enchantments.
Get a Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes if you want to stack weapon enchantments on a natural attack.
CMantle wrote: The reason for this is that could start adding effective enhancements to all sort of stuff.. have 2 different +1 armor special abilities in the same armor is 4,000gp, but having one on your actual armor and one on your belt is only 2,000 Which is why you can't do that.
The Helm of the Mammoth Lord would be a Masterwork Item, just like just about every other magic item. But just because it is a Masterwork Item doesn't mean it's a Masterwork Weapon. Helmets are not normally weapons, so there is no reason to suppose that you could claim Masterwork Weapon bonuses for the Natural Attack Granted by a Helm of the Mammoth Lord such as acquired by a Pathfinder Society Adventurer on the market.
Reksew_Trebla wrote: Masterwork Transformation, since they are weapons, and they are items. Bear in mind that a Natural Weapon is not necessarily a Natural Attack. Dogs have claws, but they don't have Claw Attacks. Humans can bite, but they don't have Bite Attacks. Casting Masterwork Transformation on an item that is already Masterwork shouldn't necessarily have any effect. It is not unambiguous that the physical tusks on the Helm of the Mammoth Lord are actually weapons that give you a Gore Natural Attack. There is no reason to suppose that Masterworking them would result in turning them into masterwork weapons or that if you did you would be able to use that Bonus in a Natural Attack.
I don't see any reason why a caster couldn't put a Weapon Enhancement Bonus on a Helm of the Mammoth Lord, granting it a +1 or higher Enhancement Bonus on Attack and Damage Rolls. There are rules describing putting further enchantments on magic items, and a GM should be able to sort out something fair. But now we are talking about customized Magic Items, and you can't customize Magic Items in Pathfinder Society. That means anything the rules literally say are trumped by what your individual GM has to say.
I recall there is a magic item that grants or allows enhancement bonuses specifically to Gore Attacks: a ring that fits over elephant tusks or something. I don't remember the name of the item.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: The Helm of the Mammoth Lord would be a Masterwork Item, just like just about every other magic item. Only magic armor and weapons have to be masterwork to be enchanted.
Creating Magic Armor
To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled. Armor to be made into magic armor must be masterwork armor
Creating Magic Weapons
To create a magic weapon, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the weapon or the pieces of the weapon to be assembled. Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon
Creating Wondrous Items
To create a wondrous item, a character usually needs some sort of equipment or tools to work on the item. She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the item itself or the pieces of the item to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the item
None of the descriptions for crafting magic items except armor and weapons require masterwork items.
I actually don't see any trouble with a player making a helm of the mammoth lords (or similar item) and adding the amulet of mighty fists enchantment, so long as you apply the x1.5 multiplier to the lesser of the item costs for adding an additional enchantment to the item.
Joey Cote wrote: None of the descriptions for crafting magic items except armor and weapons require masterwork items. A Helm of the Mammoth Lord is a Helm. That's armor. But even conceding your point, and there are other magic items that grant natural attacks that are neither sword nor armor, I think my point stands that it is unlikely that any magic item acquired on the market in Golorion is not already Masterwork.
Joey Cote wrote: I actually don't see any trouble with a player making a helm of the mammoth lords (or similar item) and adding the amulet of mighty fists enchantment, so long as you apply the x1.5 multiplier to the lesser of the item costs for adding an additional enchantment to the item. Which is pretty much what I said.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Joey Cote wrote: None of the descriptions for crafting magic items except armor and weapons require masterwork items. A Helm of the Mammoth Lord is a Helm. That's armor. But even conceding your point, and there are other magic items that grant natural attacks that are neither sword nor armor, I think my point stands that it is unlikely that any magic item acquired on the market in Golorion is not already Masterwork.
Joey Cote wrote: I actually don't see any trouble with a player making a helm of the mammoth lords (or similar item) and adding the amulet of mighty fists enchantment, so long as you apply the x1.5 multiplier to the lesser of the item costs for adding an additional enchantment to the item. Which is pretty much what I said. Armor is very specific in Pathfinder, in Pathfinder, a helm does not count as armor as it does not give an armor bonus to AC.
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I think you mean the Tusk Blades, Scott. They can be enhanced like a melee weapon to affect Gore attacks. But it's animal gear and I doubt a GM would allow one to be attached to the Helm of the Mammoth Lord. Though if the PC had a Gore attack through race or a class feature instead of an item, the GM might allow it to be used.
CMantle wrote: CMantle wrote: No. Not at all items can be made masterwork. As far as I’m aware only manufactured weapons and armors can. My question to you is why *not* just AoNA? Do you have some necklace that’s just that good? The reason for this is that could start adding effective enhancements to all sort of stuff.. have 2 different +1 armor special abilities in the same armor is 4,000gp, but having one on your actual armor and one on your belt is only 2,000 Here's where I have a problem. Barring perhaps specific belt items that might replicate the effects of armor special abilities, you can't do this.
So your goal is something that can't and shouldn't be done anyways.
I know... I was literally saying you *cant* do it... and the reason I gave is the practical reason why you can’t....
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I'm just going to point out that from a purely economic standpoint a natural attack based character saves a ton from using an Amulet of Mighty Fists. While you are limited to +5 in bonuses, as long as you have 3 or more natural attacks then it is cheaper to use the Amulet rather than enchanting 3 different weapons. And you can use that entire +5 budget to give yourself special abilities if you wish.
Combined with a middling level druid and Permanency you can have +5 in special abilities from the Amulet, and Greater Magic Fang to make all of your natural weapons +1. Or you can spend time to find a high level druid and get each of your natural weapons made into a (druid level/4) enhancement bonus weapon at the cost of a permanency and GMF from a high level caster.
And for truly absurd amounts of gold, you could have multiple Amulets to give yourself access to different sets of special abilities as needed.
Meirril wrote: I'm just going to point out that from a purely economic standpoint a natural attack based character saves a ton from using an Amulet of Mighty Fists. While you are limited to +5 in bonuses, as long as you have 3 or more natural attacks then it is cheaper to use the Amulet rather than enchanting 3 different weapons. And you can use that entire +5 budget to give yourself special abilities if you wish.
Combined with a middling level druid and Permanency you can have +5 in special abilities from the Amulet, and Greater Magic Fang to make all of your natural weapons +1. Or you can spend time to find a high level druid and get each of your natural weapons made into a (druid level/4) enhancement bonus weapon at the cost of a permanency and GMF from a high level caster.
And for truly absurd amounts of gold, you could have multiple Amulets to give yourself access to different sets of special abilities as needed.
This. I can’t fathom how they think paying MORE money for the exact same effect is cheating the system.
Reksew_Trebla wrote: I can’t fathom how they think paying MORE money for the exact same effect is cheating the system. Because adding the AoMF effect to the helm is not what you were talking about. Ignoring the fact that putting a wondrous item in a differen slot is problematic in itself, and should at least carry an additional cost increase, you were talking about enchanting the item's natural attack as a weapon, which implies at regular cost.
If this is a purely academical thought, you have your answer - no, ebcause it's not a weapon on its own. If it's for actual play, you also have your answer - hell no, because you're trying to cheat the system. If you weren't trying to cheat the system, you wouldn't attempt it in the first place.
Derklord wrote: Reksew_Trebla wrote: I can’t fathom how they think paying MORE money for the exact same effect is cheating the system. Because adding the AoMF effect to the helm is not what you were talking about. Ignoring the fact that putting a wondrous item in a differen slot is problematic in itself, and should at least carry an additional cost increase, you were talking about enchanting the item's natural attack as a weapon, which implies at regular cost.
If this is a purely academical thought, you have your answer - no, ebcause it's not a weapon on its own. If it's for actual play, you also have your answer - hell no, because you're trying to cheat the system. If you weren't trying to cheat the system, you wouldn't attempt it in the first place. Except the AoMF also effects every other natural weapon. I’m just trying to effect one at a time. And at no point would putting the AoMF on something else even come up for this. After all, you don’t enchant brass knuckles with the price of an AoMF. You don’t enchant Claw Blades with the price of an AoMF. So why would you enchant an individual manufactured nat weapon with that price? So you are factually wrong with it cheating the system. And it is a weapon, otherwise you couldn’t attack with it as a nat weapon. So you are factually wrong about it not being a weapon.
The point about it cheating the system is that if you had, for example, an amulet of mighty fists +2, and you also wanted to grant your natural weapons a +1 magic ability, to increase the amulet to an effective +3 would cost 20,000 (36,000 - 16,000). However, if you could instead enhance the natural attacks separately as individual weapons, it would only cost 2,000 to add the +1 magic ability to it. Meaning you could individually enhance 10 of them for the same price as increasing your AoMF by 1.
The thing you're not seeing is that *in your individual case* you might not be breaking the system, but the concept you're proposing is one that could be very VERY very VERY very VERY easy to abuse. Because it's much cheaper to spread out multiple low level enhancements than it is to continue enhancing one item. Stop getting all upset about something not working out the way you want it to. You've gotten your Rules as Written answer, *and* you've gotten your logical interpretation of the rules answer, and both are against what you're trying to do. If that doesn't satisfy you, try to convince your GM, but if he has a brain he'll nip your idea in the bud before you or someone else in his group uses the precedent to break the game
I think the answer is pretty definitive: an item that grants you a natural attack is not a weapon in and of itself, so it cannot by the RAW be enchanted as a weapon with Craft Magical Arms and Armor.
However, given that the Amulet of Mighty Fists exists (and is usually going to be better buy), I wouldn't have a problem letting you enchant the helm on its own, at the normal magic weapon prices.
If you want a lesser magical ability for a smaller price, that's obviously fair.
If you want the same ability for a smaller price through loopholes or deliberate abuse of the system, that's obviously not fair.
Also, I don't see a problem with making a Helm of Nature's Fury or a Belt of Savage Might that do exactly the same thing as an Amulet of Mighty Fists. Or a ring or a robe or whatever. It affects all of your natural attacks. It's not like an amulet is the only option that makes sense. That'd be like saying you can't have a talisman of invisibility or a cloak of disguise. It makes just as much sense. I'm not asking for gloves of levitation or a boot of the ram, here.
Reksew_Trebla wrote: After all, you don’t enchant brass knuckles with the price of an AoMF. You don’t enchant Claw Blades with the price of an AoMF. So why would you enchant an individual manufactured nat weapon with that price? So you are factually wrong with it cheating the system. Brass Knuckles aren't a natural weapon. Claw Blades aren't a natural weapon. Enchanting natural weapons costs more, that's how the game's item pricing system works. You are trying to get enchantment bonuses on a natural weapon at a lower price than anythign allowed by the game. Call that what you want, I stand by my original evaluation.
I have mentioned Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes, that's what the game offers as a lower cost alternative for those who don't want to enchant multiple attacks.
Reksew_Trebla wrote: And it is a weapon, otherwise you couldn’t attack with it as a nat weapon. So you are factually wrong about it not being a weapon. No, it's a wondrous item that grants a natural weapon. It's listed in the wondrous item section of the book, not the weapons section.
The Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat is for items in the "weapons" and "armor" section of the book, not for items in the "wondrous items" section.
CMantle wrote: The point about it cheating the system is that if you had, for example, an amulet of mighty fists +2, and you also wanted to grant your natural weapons a +1 magic ability, to increase the amulet to an effective +3 would cost 20,000 (36,000 - 16,000). However, if you could instead enhance the natural attacks separately as individual weapons, it would only cost 2,000 to add the +1 magic ability to it. Meaning you could individually enhance 10 of them for the same price as increasing your AoMF by 1.
The thing you're not seeing is that *in your individual case* you might not be breaking the system, but the concept you're proposing is one that could be very VERY very VERY very VERY easy to abuse. Because it's much cheaper to spread out multiple low level enhancements than it is to continue enhancing one item. Stop getting all upset about something not working out the way you want it to. You've gotten your Rules as Written answer, *and* you've gotten your logical interpretation of the rules answer, and both are against what you're trying to do. If that doesn't satisfy you, try to convince your GM, but if he has a brain he'll nip your idea in the bud before you or someone else in his group uses the precedent to break the game
That can already be done with an arrow and bow. If you have a +3 arrow and a +1 Holy bow, it costs less than a +3 holy arrow/bow, yet that is the end result.
Further more, that can be done with a Magical Tattoo AoMF+Regular AoMF, and it would be cheaper than what I’m trying to do.
Finally, you can (sort of) get the same result with Permanencied Greater Magic Fangs+AoMF.
Finally, no RAW answer has been given, since it is in fact a weapon. And no logical answer has been given, since I already disproved this “it’s cheating the system” answer.
If a RAW answer exists that hasn't been stated yet, go find it yourself. Other than that, try to find peace with your disappointment, because at this point it's becoming pretty clear you're just here to argue with people about obscurities and anomalies in the game. "Finally," finding loopholes and exceptions to the rule to try and manufacture other loopholes and exceptions *factually* is trying to "cheat the system."
If it's not game breaking, and is actually balanced, you should be able to convince your GM of that. But we all know you're here because your GM/group already told you that you couldn't do it...
CMantle wrote: If a RAW answer exists that hasn't been stated yet, go find it yourself. Other than that, try to find peace with your disappointment, because at this point it's becoming pretty clear you're just here to argue with people about obscurities and anomalies in the game. "Finally," finding loopholes and exceptions to the rule to try and manufacture other loopholes and exceptions *factually* is trying to "cheat the system."
If it's not game breaking, and is actually balanced, you should be able to convince your GM of that. But we all know you're here because your GM/group already told you that you couldn't do it...
Did... did you just say doing something like firing a +3 arrow from a +1 holy bow is a loophole/exception to the rules? Am I being trolled here? That is literally what is called out in the rules, in a faq I believe, where it says you can stack enchantments from multiple sources onto the same attack, up to a max effective enhancement bonus of +10.
You're right, maybe loophole and exception were the wrong words to use. Happy? You still can't enhance your Helm of the Mammoth Lord as a weapon. <3
CMantle wrote: The thing you're not seeing is that *in your individual case* you might not be breaking the system, but the concept you're proposing is one that could be very VERY very VERY very VERY easy to abuse. I don't see how this concept would make things easy to abuse. The OP is talking about customizing Magic Items. That seems squarely in the perview of each individual GM, and that is the opposite of "easy to abuse" the system.
So, d20pfsrd describes crafting Wondrous Items.
Wondrous Items wrote: Wondrous item costs are difficult to determine. Refer to Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values That table includes a Weapon Bonus. That makes it implicitly clear that it is possible for a Wondrous Item to have a Weapon Bonus. I can think of some examples. The Maul of the Titans comes to mind.
Can you combine a weapon bonus to a magic item that has some other kind of effect such as granting a Natural Attack? Well,
Multiple Different Abilities wrote: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character’s body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price. It seems pretty clear that you can.
Can you further enchant a magic item that already has an enchantment on it?
Adding New Abilities wrote: it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Yup.
Heather540 found the magic item I was trying to remember, Tusk Blades, and while I agree with her that you probably should not be able to just put tusk blades on the Gore Attack granted by the Helm of the Mammoth Lord, there is no reason why you could not create a Magic Item that combines the HotML with Tusk Blades. The rules describe how to compute the Market Value and Materials Cost of such an item.
There are also rules describing creating magic items that let you cast a spell: Wands, and spells that are usable with Charges per day. Magic Fang is a Level 1 Spell. Greater Magic Fang is a Level 3 Spell. There are totally rules that describe within the rules on how to make a Magic Item that combines the effects of an Animal Mask that can cast Greater Magic Fang at CL 8 3/day.
Once again, these rules are not PFS legal, so the answer to your questions really are your GM's to answer, but do the rules allow for this possibility? Yeah, they do.
CMantle wrote: The thing you're not seeing is that *in your individual case* you might not be breaking the system, but the concept you're proposing is one that could be very VERY very VERY very VERY easy to abuse... I agree with this logic in a general sense, but I don't use it at all for my games; I gladly pass out magic items that are far too potent for the characters, but they don't break the game because of the specific characters that end up using them (a secondary combatant with a crazy magic weapon), practical limits over literal ones (1/day versus at will for an item with situational powers), or multiple abilities at low levels (a character with two magic items that have six minor abilities between them).
Reksew_Trebla wrote: ...no RAW answer has been given, since it is in fact a weapon. It is not a weapon, in fact or otherwise. It is an item that grants you a natural attack. Claiming it is a weapon is like claiming that an item that casts Beast Shape 1/day is a weapon, since they both allow you to make attacks.
However, I think there are plenty of open-ended rules to allow you to create your own item that does what you want. As long as you're not trying to squeeze more out of the system than you're normally allowed.
I remember someone trying to tell me that they were allowed to buy the wings of flying from the original 3rd edition book (when they forgot a zero on it's price tag) because it's "in the book", despite the fact that he knew it was a typo. He was rather proud of himself. Needless to say, he did not get his wings of flying, and he was not invited to my table again.
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