Weapon Proficiency Tables

[Gisher]

I was having trouble visualizing the weapon proficiency progressions for the various classes, so I made up some tables. I thought I'd share them in case they can help others.

I made sure to include special cases like the Fighter's Chosen Weapon Group and the Deity's Favored Weapon options for clerics. I based the Unarmed Strike rules on the statements developers have made regarding the upcoming errata. There is some guessing involved so those might need some changes in the future.

Please let me know if you notice any errors or omissions. Enjoy!

[Zwordsman]

Thanks thats neat!

And.. again makes me sad about Alchemist profienciies. I never noticed that Bards get similiar simple but actually get a few martial. Even if its just limited choices.

This shows me more so that Alchs really need to get master simple, or access to some sort of Martials.
and really master or legendary in bombs.

When one of the casters (who can get effective 10th lv spells) have better combat options, it kind of hurts.

[Gisher]

I'm glad you like them! Comparing the classes was my main goal in making them. I was surprised by a few of the comparisons, as well.

[morphail]

Gisher wrote:

I was having trouble visualizing the weapon proficiency progressions for the various classes, so I made up some tables. I thought I'd share them in case they can help others.

I made sure to include special cases like the Fighter's Chosen Weapon Group and the Deity's Favored Weapon options for clerics. I based the Unarmed Strike rules on the statements developers have made regarding the upcoming errata. There is some guessing involved so those might need some changes in the future.

Please let me know if you notice any errors or omissions. Enjoy!

wow thanks!

this comes in handy as I am trying to change how weapons work a bit and don't want to disrupt the math too much.

[Gisher]

Glad I could help!

[Gisher]

I just uploaded an update to include the martial weapons that monks get with the Monastic Weaponry class feat.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

Zwordsman wrote:

Thanks thats neat!

And.. again makes me sad about Alchemist profienciies. I never noticed that Bards get similiar simple but actually get a few martial. Even if its just limited choices.

This shows me more so that Alchs really need to get master simple, or access to some sort of Martials.
and really master or legendary in bombs.

When one of the casters (who can get effective 10th lv spells) have better combat options, it kind of hurts.

I dunno, alchemists get enough non dpr utility flexibility that I wager they hold their own quite well.

I haven't run a 1-20 campaign with the full rules yet.

[Zwordsman]

response t o the alch utility/dps/profiency comment. Though spoilering it because its a bit of a tangent:

They do get some nice utility. Problem is they run out of them fast.
and they run out of them faster still if they want to share their resources with their allies.

Ultimately for MOST rounds an Alchemist has to be doing something that isn't Alchemist--with the exception of perpetual infusion "bomber" who gets an effective cantrip. That bomber could reapply debuffs on hit every round. While doing very little damage. Which is a bit better once one has sticky bombs or debilitating bombs. But its debatable if flat footed +1d6+1(or int) is enough contribution at lv 7 in comparison to other classes in combat.

but most of the t ime before that level (7-which can very well take a long amount of play time). And even quite a lot after that. The Alchemist still has to use a weapon. and honestly most weapons actively protest against using bombs (or drawing items in general).
Exception being a handxbow and buckler though.
But comparing to other classes, like the bard, who gets a lot of spells, cantrips ~and~ better weapon options that scale. Bard gets better weapn proriencies, and only slightly lagging behind the Alch in the profiencies raising scale. But. Their spell attack profency keeps up and exceeds. So for a significant amount of time the Bard keeps up in weapon use, but exceeds in the spell attack. So the bard can pretty much prioritize Cha (cating stat) and then Dex to hit with fineese (damage isn't great but neither is alch's). where as the Alch can't r eally priortize INT because they completely rely on Dex and a low (same as bard basically) profiency to actually have their abilities t ake any in combat effects.

it is pretty rough on an Alchemist. Who for all effective purposes is often an "off martial" who doesn't get enough skills/skillfeats to pull off skill based debuffing and survivability at once.
Additionally at higher level, it starts to have issues with actually hitting reasonably well. At lv bombs do have item bonuses. But while you're still expert. Casters will be master or higher, and several martials will be Masters +feats that increase accuracy or number attack attempts.
(much less the bulk issue)
Alchemist isn't really able to stand alone. Its often agreed that it needs to multiclass to pick up required abilities for contribution.
Hunter's Aim, for instance is very much needed to pseudo get Masters in bombs to keep up.

[Ubertron_X]

The cleric, easily beat by the mage when push comes to shove...

[Gisher]

I made a few cosmetic changes and also added a page for Armor Proficiency.

* Weapon Proficiency Advancement

* Armor Proficiency Advancement

[Gisher]

I've added a few more tables. They cover weapons, armor, saving throws, perception, class DC, spellcasting, and maximum skill proficiency. Please let me know if you spot any errors.

* Weapon Proficiency Advancement

* Armor Proficiency Advancement

* Saving Throws Proficiency Advancement

* Other Proficiencies

Or you can view them all in one combined document.

[Corvo Spiritwind]

Gisher wrote:

I've added a few more tables. They cover weapons, armor, saving throws, perception, class DC, spellcasting, and maximum skill proficiency. Please let me know if you spot any errors.

* Weapon Proficiency Advancement

* Armor Proficiency Advancement

* Saving Throws Proficiency Advancement

* Other Proficiencies

Or you can view them all in one combined document.

This is really useful, but is there no way to copy it over to google drive?

[Ravingdork]

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR DOING THIS!!!

Due to many requests from my friends, I had already started this project myself, but had only made it two classes in before I discovered yours.

You saved me SO MUCH work! And it looks SO MUCH BETTER than mine!

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

[james014Aura]

First: THANK YOU!!!

Second: the Sorcerer's Will save is listed as never progressing beyond Expert. I believe there was dev commentary saying they should have gotten Resolve at the same level as the Wizard.

EDIT, Third: Maximum skill proficiency neglects the Rogue, which has no indication of being locked to Trained at level 2.

EDIT, Fourth: should we assume the "all others" for spell DCs and attack rolls ignores multiclassing?

[Gisher]

Corvo Spiritwind wrote:

This is really useful, but is there no way to copy it over to google drive?

Oops, I thought that I was doing that. Please try this link and let me know if it is working properly.

Gisher's Guide to Proficiency Bonuses

[Gisher]

Ravingdork wrote:

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR DOING THIS!!!

Due to many requests from my friends, I had already started this project myself, but had only made it two classes in before I discovered yours.

You saved me SO MUCH work! And it looks SO MUCH BETTER than mine!

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

You are very welcome. Considering how useful I've found your Crazy Character Emporium, I'm happy to give something back. :)

[Gisher]

james014Aura wrote:

First: THANK YOU!!!

Second: the Sorcerer's Will save is listed as never progressing beyond Expert. I believe there was dev commentary saying they should have gotten Resolve at the same level as the Wizard.

EDIT, Third: Maximum skill proficiency neglects the Rogue, which has no indication of being locked to Trained at level 2.

EDIT, Fourth: should we assume the "all others" for spell DCs and attack rolls ignores multiclassing?

Thank you for the suggestions! I fixed the problems with the Sorcerer. I'm not sure how I forgot that change. I didn't realize that Rogues could be Expert in skills at second level. Some very interesting possibilities there. The charts only include the base classes. Trying to include multiclassing options very quickly grew out of hand.

[Gisher]

I'm beginning to think that Druids getting a Class DC is an error. None of the other casting classes get one, it never progresses above Trained, and I can't find any other mentions of it in the Core Rulebook. Has anyone heard any announcements that this is an error?

[graystone]

LOL Looking at those charts reminds me of the old marvel FASERIP charts. Good times. ;)

[steelhead]

Nice tools for comparing character options. Thanks!!!

[Lucas Yew]

Neat! Thanks for your hard work.

Although, shouldn't this thread's title be updated to something like General Proficiency Tables or such?

[Paul Watson]

Very nice work.

I know Clerics are only ever Trained in non-deity simple weapons, but Cleric should probably have their own line on that table, independent of Warpriest and Cloistered doctrines with their deity's weapons. It looks like an oversight.

[BretI]

I agree, very nice work.

It makes an excellent way to show the differences in the class proficiencies.

[Gisher]

Lucas Yew wrote:

Neat! Thanks for your hard work.

Although, shouldn't this thread's title be updated to something like General Proficiency Tables or such?

I can't at this point. Perhaps a moderator will be willing to update the title.

[Gisher]

Paul Watson wrote:

Very nice work.

I know Clerics are only ever Trained in non-deity simple weapons, but Cleric should probably have their own line on that table, independent of Warpriest and Cloistered doctrines with their deity's weapons. It looks like an oversight.

Apparently I accidentally erased that line during an update. Thanks for catching it!

[Broken Zenith]

Added to the 2nd Edition Guide to the Guides!

[Gisher]

I've updated my Guide to Proficiency Bonuses (Google Drive version) to reflect changes to Warpriest weapon advancement. According to the character sheets their Simple Weapon and Unarmed Strike proficiencies should advance with their Favored Weapon.

[Gisher]

I've updated the Guide to Proficiency Bonuses (Google Drive version) to include the CRB errata and the four new classes from the APG Playtest. Please let me know if I got any of the new stuff wrong.

(The Warpriest changes to simple weapon advancement turned out not to be reflected in the errata so I changed it back.)

[Ravingdork]

Thanks!

[Gisher]

Updates!

* I have added the classes and options from the APG. I still have not included archetypes because there are far too many possible variations and combinations.

* I have adjusted the Unarmed Strike tables. The errata on this topic has never made sense to me because any group of weapons would be a specific set of weapons. Taken literally it ends up effectively giving Unarmed Strike as a free Favored Weapon to every Cleric whose deity doesn't have Unarmed Strike as a Favored Weapon. It would also, effectively, add Unarmed Strike to to every Fighter weapon group instead of just Brawling. After a lot of thought, I have come to the conclusion that the errata should have said 'specified' set of weapons rather than 'specific' set of weapons, and I've used that interpretation on the tables. Hopefully the second errata will clear this up.

As usual, please let me know if you find any errors.

Enjoy!

Guide to Proficiency Bonuses (Google Drive version)

[MightyK]

For the Monk and Champion Spell Attack / Spell DC you write "1 Applies only to focus spells" but that is not correct imo.

Champion: "... you are trained in divine spell attack rolls and spell DCs"
and later: "Your proficiency ranks for your champion class DC and for divine spell attack rolls and spell DCs increase to master."

The same for monk although there you have a choice of tradition: "decide whether your ki spells are divine spells or occult spells. You become trained in spell attacks and spell DCs of that tradition and your key spellcasting ability is Wisdom."

And it only activates "When you first gain a ki spell".

It would be nice to include Multiclassing maybe? With Dedication and feats you can get trained Spellcasting at lvl 2, Expert at lvl 12 and master at lvl 18.

BTW that means that Champion and Monk / Caster MCs can get Expert and Master earlier than other MC combinations.

[Ascalaphus]

Gisher wrote:

* I have adjusted the Unarmed Strike tables. The errata on this topic has never made sense to me because any group of weapons would be a specific set of weapons. Taken literally it ends up effectively giving Unarmed Strike as a free Favored Weapon to every Cleric whose deity doesn't have Unarmed Strike as a Favored Weapon. It would also, effectively, add Unarmed Strike to to every Fighter weapon group instead of just Brawling. After a lot of thought, I have come to the conclusion that the errata should have said 'specified' set of weapons rather than 'specific' set of weapons, and I've used that interpretation on the tables. Hopefully the second errata will clear this up.

That's an interesting argument. I was thinking the other way, it made sense enough to me that fighters were pretty good with fists. Especially now that Archer (certainly) and Mauler (probably?) archetypes would allow a fighter to advance faster in a larger number of weapons.

But your argument against clerics efficiently advancing unarmed strikes makes me consider the other side of the argument.

[Gisher]

MightyK wrote:

For the Monk and Champion Spell Attack / Spell DC you write "1 Applies only to focus spells" but that is not correct imo.

Champion: "... you are trained in divine spell attack rolls and spell DCs"
and later: "Your proficiency ranks for your champion class DC and for divine spell attack rolls and spell DCs increase to master."

The same for monk although there you have a choice of tradition: "decide whether your ki spells are divine spells or occult spells. You become trained in spell attacks and spell DCs of that tradition and your key spellcasting ability is Wisdom."

And it only activates "When you first gain a ki spell".

Thanks for spotting that! I wrote that footnote when the CRB had just come out, and I didn't quite realize that casting proficiencies were tradition-specific rather than class-specific. I've made the correction.

MightyK wrote:

It would be nice to include Multiclassing maybe? With Dedication and feats you can get trained Spellcasting at lvl 2, Expert at lvl 12 and master at lvl 18.

I tried, but when I started to include archetypes and ancestries the number of combinations was just too large. With other books out now it would be even worse, so I'm sticking to the base classes.

MightyK wrote:

BTW that means that Champion and Monk / Caster MCs can get Expert and Master earlier than other MC combinations.

That's a good point. They would get Expert three levels before typical MC and Master one level before typical MC.

[Gisher]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Gisher wrote:

* I have adjusted the Unarmed Strike tables. The errata on this topic has never made sense to me because any group of weapons would be a specific set of weapons. Taken literally it ends up effectively giving Unarmed Strike as a free Favored Weapon to every Cleric whose deity doesn't have Unarmed Strike as a Favored Weapon. It would also, effectively, add Unarmed Strike to to every Fighter weapon group instead of just Brawling. After a lot of thought, I have come to the conclusion that the errata should have said 'specified' set of weapons rather than 'specific' set of weapons, and I've used that interpretation on the tables. Hopefully the second errata will clear this up.

That's an interesting argument. I was thinking the other way, it made sense enough to me that fighters were pretty good with fists. Especially now that Archer (certainly) and Mauler (probably?) archetypes would allow a fighter to advance faster in a larger number of weapons.

But your argument against clerics efficiently advancing unarmed strikes makes me consider the other side of the argument.

I don't know why the errata gave us a vaguely stated principle for this rather than just giving us the page corrections like the rest of the document. I've gone back and forth on this, but I keep having problems with the word 'specific.' Any ability that changes weapon proficiency would affect a specific set of weapons. So why not just say 'any weapons?' But some options do affect a 'specified' set of weapons, so that would make more sense. I'm hoping we can get a better errata soon so I can be sure these charts are correct.

[Gisher]

MightyK wrote:

...

It would be nice to include Multiclassing maybe? With Dedication and feats you can get trained Spellcasting at lvl 2, Expert at lvl 12 and master at lvl 18.
...

I do have a separate chart showing the standard multiclass spellcasting feats and what they provide. You might find that useful.

[MightyK]

Gisher wrote:

I do have a separate chart showing the standard multiclass spellcasting feats and what they provide. You might find that useful.

Ah yes, that's helpful, thanks! Small tip: I would use the same color-code as in the other tables for easier comparison.

[Gisher]

I've added the Magus and Summoner from the playtest.

• Guide to Proficiency Bonuses (web version)

• Guide to Proficiency Bonuses (Google Drive version)

[Plane]

Can you add one for Highest Attack Bonuses? So weapons for martials but spell attack bonuses for primary casters?

[Gisher]

Plane wrote:

Can you add one for Highest Attack Bonuses? So weapons for martials but spell attack bonuses for primary casters?

That's a little tricky since so many things can alter attack rolls, but I whipped up something for you to use as a starting point. I listed the best weapon progression for each class as well as any spellcasting progression for that class. (I added bombs for Alchemists and also the best possible progression for multiclass spellcasting.) I used the item bonus progressions shown at the bottom of the charts.

The first page shows the full proficiency bonus + item bonus. The second page shows the same thing with the level stripped out. I find that one easier for comparison purposes.

• Attack Roll Tables

I hope that helps.

[Gortle]

Is there a guide somewhere that factors in the stat bonuses as well?
This a question or a request I guess. Your charts are a lot clear than mine.

A Chart for Attack Bonuses:
Assuming a primary stat of 18 (STR or DEX) increasing it at every chance plus getting the Apex item at level 17.
OR for a secondary stat of 16 increasing it at every chance without the Apex item. Which is the best scenario for a STR based martial using a DEX based weapon, or a class without a primary in either STR or DEX using a weapon.

A similar Chart for Armour Bonus
Assuming Maximum DEX for the type of Armour non/light/medium/heavy

Then thrown in a few Animal companions, say
Snake with all the DEX feats
Bear with Barding and the STR feats
Monitor Lizard with Barding and Indomitable Companion.

Also does someone have a list of all the feats that give you increased proficiency with a group of weapons up to the limit of your best proficiency. I'm thinking of things like Archer Dedication and Goblin Weapon Expertise etc etc?

[Plane]

Gisher wrote:

Plane wrote:

Can you add one for Highest Attack Bonuses? So weapons for martials but spell attack bonuses for primary casters?

That's a little tricky since so many things can alter attack rolls, but I whipped up something for you to use as a starting point. I listed the best weapon progression for each class as well as any spellcasting progression for that class. (I added bombs for Alchemists and also the best possible progression for multiclass spellcasting.) I used the item bonus progressions shown at the bottom of the charts.

The first page shows the full proficiency bonus + item bonus. The second page shows the same thing with the level stripped out. I find that one easier for comparison purposes.

• Attack Roll Tables

I hope that helps.

Thank you so much for your work! This is excellent and insightful in comparing attack strength.

Kudos!

[Gisher]

Gortle wrote:

Is there a guide somewhere that factors in the stat bonuses as well?
This a question or a request I guess. Your charts are a lot clear than mine.

A Chart for Attack Bonuses:
Assuming a primary stat of 18 (STR or DEX) increasing it at every chance plus getting the Apex item at level 17.
OR for a secondary stat of 16 increasing it at every chance without the Apex item. Which is the best scenario for a STR based martial using a DEX based weapon, or a class without a primary in either STR or DEX using a weapon.

I made some charts that add those ability boosts to the previous charts. I haven't added all of the variations that you requested yet.

• Attack Roll Tables

[Gisher]

Plane wrote:

Gisher wrote:

Plane wrote:

Can you add one for Highest Attack Bonuses? So weapons for martials but spell attack bonuses for primary casters?

That's a little tricky since so many things can alter attack rolls, but I whipped up something for you to use as a starting point. I listed the best weapon progression for each class as well as any spellcasting progression for that class. (I added bombs for Alchemists and also the best possible progression for multiclass spellcasting.) I used the item bonus progressions shown at the bottom of the charts.

The first page shows the full proficiency bonus + item bonus. The second page shows the same thing with the level stripped out. I find that one easier for comparison purposes.

• Attack Roll Tables

I hope that helps.

Thank you so much for your work! This is excellent and insightful in comparing attack strength.

Kudos!

You are very welcome. Making them is a really good learning exercise for me.

[Gortle]

Gisher wrote:

Gortle wrote:

Is there a guide somewhere that factors in the stat bonuses as well?
This a question or a request I guess. Your charts are a lot clear than mine.

A Chart for Attack Bonuses:
Assuming a primary stat of 18 (STR or DEX) increasing it at every chance plus getting the Apex item at level 17.
OR for a secondary stat of 16 increasing it at every chance without the Apex item. Which is the best scenario for a STR based martial using a DEX based weapon, or a class without a primary in either STR or DEX using a weapon.

I made some charts that add those ability boosts to the previous charts. I haven't added all of the variations that you requested yet.

• Attack Roll Tables

Thank you

So as I read it you have the Summoner 2 behind the wizard in spell attacks for level 7-10 and 15+. Looks good. Looks right

The Eidolon will come in the line, you have listed as Rogue Weapon Secondary

Perfect

[Falco271]

Gisher wrote:

Gortle wrote:

Is there a guide somewhere that factors in the stat bonuses as well?
This a question or a request I guess. Your charts are a lot clear than mine.

A Chart for Attack Bonuses:
Assuming a primary stat of 18 (STR or DEX) increasing it at every chance plus getting the Apex item at level 17.
OR for a secondary stat of 16 increasing it at every chance without the Apex item. Which is the best scenario for a STR based martial using a DEX based weapon, or a class without a primary in either STR or DEX using a weapon.

I made some charts that add those ability boosts to the previous charts. I haven't added all of the variations that you requested yet.

• Attack Roll Tables

Added.

One issue I saw: Best attack needs to go up to 38 for fighters and 36 for other martials.

Stat: 22 (+6) +
Apex Item (+1) +
Lvl (+20) +
Prof (+8) +
item (+3) = 38 for fighter

[Gortle]

Falco271 wrote:

One issue I saw: Best attack needs to go up to 38 for fighters and 36 for other martials.

Stat: 22 (+6) +
Apex Item (+1) +
Lvl (+20) +
Prof (+8) +
item (+3) = 38 for fighter

Just missing the level 20 increase for everyones primary ability score with item to +7 bonus

[Nik Gervae]

Gisher wrote:

I was having trouble visualizing the weapon proficiency progressions for the various classes, so I made up some tables. I thought I'd share them in case they can help others.

Pathfinder 2 definitely needs more visualizations like this. Good work!

[Gisher]

Falco271 wrote:

Gisher wrote:

Gortle wrote:

Is there a guide somewhere that factors in the stat bonuses as well?
This a question or a request I guess. Your charts are a lot clear than mine.

A Chart for Attack Bonuses:
Assuming a primary stat of 18 (STR or DEX) increasing it at every chance plus getting the Apex item at level 17.
OR for a secondary stat of 16 increasing it at every chance without the Apex item. Which is the best scenario for a STR based martial using a DEX based weapon, or a class without a primary in either STR or DEX using a weapon.

I made some charts that add those ability boosts to the previous charts. I haven't added all of the variations that you requested yet.

• Attack Roll Tables

Added.

One issue I saw: Best attack needs to go up to 38 for fighters and 36 for other martials.

Stat: 22 (+6) +
Apex Item (+1) +
Lvl (+20) +
Prof (+8) +
item (+3) = 38 for fighter

Thanks! When I added the Apex Item I didn't add it to the level 20 boost. I'll fix it when I get the chance.

[Gisher]

Gortle wrote:

Falco271 wrote:

One issue I saw: Best attack needs to go up to 38 for fighters and 36 for other martials.

Stat: 22 (+6) +
Apex Item (+1) +
Lvl (+20) +
Prof (+8) +
item (+3) = 38 for fighter

Just missing the level 20 increase for everyones primary ability score with item to +7 bonus

Yep, that was it. :)

[Gisher]

Nik Gervae wrote:

Gisher wrote:

I was having trouble visualizing the weapon proficiency progressions for the various classes, so I made up some tables. I thought I'd share them in case they can help others.

Pathfinder 2 definitely needs more visualizations like this. Good work!

Thank you! Graphical layouts are much easier for me to process.